Sciencemadness Discussion Board - High-order flash powder?

Perchlorate/Al detonates if the particle size is small enough and the impact/friction sensitivity relatively low.

That's interesting, can you demonstrate that it really detonates? A louder sound could be from increased deflagration rates. A bullet impact would ignite the mixture at more than one location, which might greatly increase the burn rate. Years ago I thought explosive mixtures inheritlly deflagrated because there's no set speed of sound through a powder and the reaction proceeds via contact with heat rather than a shockwave. I know I was wrong about that generalization, e.g. potassium/ice or water can detonate on contract despite being very heterogeneous. However this is a coulombic reaction that works because of low surface contact.
In terms of mechanism, what would be the difference between det and def in flash and what's the metric to distinguish it?

Dornier 335A - 12-9-2016 at 06:28

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklon-A

Of course powders have a speed of sound.

The only criteria for detonation is that enough energy has to be delivered to the shock wave from the reaction zone just behind the shock wave to sustain it. The shock wave basically crushes the molecules, adding a lot of energy to the system. After it has passed, the products (CO2, H2O, N2, etc.) form and power the wave. The process is basically instantaneous for molecular explosives like RDX with reaction times of around 10^-7 seconds. In mixtures, the reaction time is increased because of the diffusion rates. No energy produced more than let's say a cm behind the shock wave will actually power it. So if the particle size of the mixture is small enough, the reaction proceeds quickly enough to add the required amount of energy to the shock wave => sustained detonation.

Bert - 12-9-2016 at 17:13

.

Sodium chlorate, sodium benzoate and a touch of red phosphorus would likely undergo DDT and have a fairly high VoD if properly confined but I'm only speculating, obviously RP/chlorate mixtures can be quite dangerous although with only 5% or less RP I doubt it would be too sensitive.[Edited on 10-9-2016 by OneEyedPyro]

Good lord, must every generation rediscover the inadvisability of Sodium chlorate based HE.

5% red P. With Sodium chlorate. And benzoate. How exactly did you lose the other eye, btw? Why not suggest adding some red Arsenic while you are at it.

You will find that surprisingly small ammounts of either red P or Arsenic sulfide added to chlorate mixtures make them FAR more likely to kill you during any dry handling, packing and processing than you seem to expect.

Before the Frasch process and oil refinery byproduct Sulfurs became the major sources, volcanic Sulfur with just a bit of Arsenic sulfide contamination was at LEAST as much to blame for chlorate mixture auto ignition disasters as any sulfurous acids resulting from sublimation/other heat processes used to make roll Sulfur over by the volcano... And you can't so easily wash out that As as you could, perhaps, wash away the acids.

If you must go there, make up a whistle fuel analogue with Potassium chlorate instead of the perchlorate, Sodium benzoate or salicylate, or even gallic acid if you dare, all as you please. Use red Iron oxide or other such catalysts as normal in whistle mixes, while leaving OUT the vaseline or any other phlegmatisers. Compact it hydraulically as for a pyrotechnic whistle. Insert a healthy blasting cap, and don't bother with a metal confinement.

OneEyedPyro - 12-9-2016 at 19:14

The idea is to create a binary explosive that is suitable for use in caps. Most chlorate based HEs are suicide as a main charge but as a primary to be used in amounts of a few grams or less I think it's a bit more reasonable.

I'm aware of how sensitive chlorate and red phosphorus mixtures are but I didn't know red P is so effective of a catalyst at low concentrations. I assume the mix I mentioned would at least be less sensitive than armstrongs mix but I guess that's not saying much.

MineMan - 12-9-2016 at 19:27

Bert thank you for the warnings. I would consider adding Red P to the ammonal mixture for increased sensativity, but NOT the cap.

Bert, using a blasting cap defeats the purpose of my question, something that could be mixed up on site and detonate an AN mixture. Dornier, you are probably the expert on binary ( or more) type flash powders and explosive mixtures. We don't need something increadibly brisiant... If a bullet can detonate ammonal shouldn't a mixture with a burn rate similar to the bullet velocity?

PHILOU Zrealone - 14-9-2016 at 02:33

Bert thank you for the warnings. I would consider adding Red P to the ammonal mixture for increased sensativity, but NOT the cap.

Bert, using a blasting cap defeats the purpose of my question, something that could be mixed up on site and detonate an AN mixture. Dornier, you are probably the expert on binary ( or more) type flash powders and explosive mixtures. We don't need something increadibly brisiant... If a bullet can detonate ammonal shouldn't a mixture with a burn rate similar to the bullet velocity?

Red P and AmmonAl poses no troubles...
It is the chlorate that is troublesome with P...
because P oxydises slowly with air to P2O5 and moisturize from air as HPO3 and H3PO4...
And strong acids with chlorate takes fire or explodes...
-->in the case of a binary (or ternary or whatever) mix of fuel and oxydizer it is as if you have an inflamed match-head inside the mix.
No matter the amount of red P you put into a chlorate mix...it will strongly increase the risk (vs P-less mix) of auto-ignition, self-heating, friction and impact sensitivity... above a certain quantity it becomes 100% chance of explosion.

I have worked with NaClO3/S/C and with KClO3/S/C mixes but I always put 2-5% CaCO3 fine dust to trap the acid traces of the sulfur...so I had no troubles...but such mixes can be deflagrating and in some cases (ultrafine powders and special form of carbon (airborne carbon black of fume)) near-detonating (reducing 5mm wall thickness iron-steel pipe into schrapnels of 5mm on 5 mm and some slighly larger)

I don't know if the CaCO3 methodology could be used to temper the devil inside a red P mix...I would not trust such a mix for storage or > 2g amounts.

The bullet initiation of AmmonAl is based on 3 effects:
1°) The conversion of kinetic energy of the bullet into friction and shock at the impact --> strong heat and compression...especially if the mix contains air bubbles.
2°) The bullet friction with air makes it hot but this is not very efficient
3°) The bullet impact with the container (if metallic) of the AmmonAl generates sparks of ignited iron (burning into Fe2O3)

[Edited on 14-9-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PHILOU Zrealone - 14-9-2016 at 02:43

The idea is to create a binary explosive that is suitable for use in caps. Most chlorate based HEs are suicide as a main charge but as a primary to be used in amounts of a few grams or less I think it's a bit more reasonable.

I'm aware of how sensitive chlorate and red phosphorus mixtures are but I didn't know red P is so effective of a catalyst at low concentrations. I assume the mix I mentioned would at least be less sensitive than armstrongs mix but I guess that's not saying much.

Chlorate in the sense you use it as a binary mix of fuel and oxydizer will never be a HE...it needs DNT, DNN, TNT, TNN, TeNN to get it as a HE as cheddites explosives.

Chlorate in a conventionnal binary (or ternary or more) mix like Chlorate/Al/S/P will deflagrate and into a cap will be considered more as an ignitor than as a detonator...you may get a shockwave from a deflagration and as such it may maybe initiate sensitive enough secondary like nitrate based ETN, NG, MHN, XPN, IHN, PETN or others like RDX, TNP, HMX, Tetryl...but it will not work wel for less sensitive like TATNB, TNT, TNX.

As explained prior, even traces of red P is like having an inflammed match-heat spot into your mix. It will increase the sensitivity a lot but also the risk of auto-ignition, self-inflamation.

[Edited on 14-9-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

OneEyedPyro - 14-9-2016 at 22:03

I know good quality armstrongs mix truely detonates, has a very small critical diameter and has greater brisance than many HEs. If not for its high sensitivity it would be suitable for use in blasting caps.

Surely there must be another fuse sensitive oxidizer/fuel mixture that is reasonably safe to handle in small quantities but also fairly powerful.

Chlorate/Al flash powder kits are widely available in stores here in the US, it's marketed as an exploding handgun target and hundreds of pounds of it are used daily by people with no concept of what they're dealing with.
Many consider chlorate/Al to be a terribly hazardous mixture yet average citizens manage to produce pounds of it at a time uneventfully.

I understand it's better to be safe than sorry but I also think it's important to be realistic.
I just don't like to see people be overly dismissive because of the percieved or theoretical danger of a substance when in practice it may be relatively safe.

[Edited on 15-9-2016 by OneEyedPyro]

Marvin - 15-9-2016 at 04:27

I just don't like to see people be overly dismissive because of the percieved or theoretical danger of a substance when in practice it may be relatively safe.

Chlorate mixtures can detonate high order, but they are not a fruitful area for blind research. Your posts are not easy to tell apart from those of an idiot. Much of the safety information in books comes about as a result of deaths. Try reading one.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 15-9-2016 at 12:43

Only from the home matches is impossible making detonator. However from the Matches and ETN yes. But is it idea for self destruction fools... :cool:

...Dr.

MineMan - 15-9-2016 at 13:07

I think those targets only have a smaller percentage of chlorite in them. They are not the main oxidizer.

2 grams of KCLO3, Al, and S should work. But I would like something safer... Does anyone have any ideas?

MineMan - 15-9-2016 at 13:14

Philou. Did you perform impact and friction tests on your potassium chlorate, sulfur and charcoal mix? How many grams did you use to destroy the 5mm steel pipe? Would you feel safe causally mixing up 2-5 grams of this mixture. Since it can be made in the field it would not need to be stored!

Kind of a different ball game, but my mixture of KCL/NM/Al/NC goes off with a very light wack of a hammer, less than ETN for sure. Chlorates sure are sensitive...especially with NM...

Hmm I just got the idea from writing this last sentence that the above mixture could probably go off with 1 gram of flash, it would be completely legal too. Everything could be made on site

[Edited on 15-9-2016 by MineMan]

Fulmen - 15-9-2016 at 14:22

A few decades ago I read an abstract detailing a pyrotechnic mixture with a reliable deflagration-to-detonation transition (DDT). I don't recall the exact composition, other than that it specified a cerium-aluminum alloy (or something to that effect). The downside wat that the time delay was very rough, meaning it wouldn't function with modern delayed ignitors.

So it seems to be possible, although I'm not so convinced pyrotechnic compositions are inherently safer than primary explosives.

OneEyedPyro - 15-9-2016 at 15:37

I think those targets only have a smaller percentage of chlorite in them. They are not the main oxidizer.

Believe it or not many of these rimfire sensitive targets are simply KClO3/Al flash powder. Check the MSDS on some of them.

Bert - 15-9-2016 at 16:50

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

I'm not so convinced pyrotechnic compositions are inherently safer than primary explosives.

I strongly agree that they are not... Especially if you are trying for the maximum sensitivity in the expectation that will equate to a higher speed. Different types of sensitivities, different initiation scenarios, different types of outputs. Different does not equal better...

And different amounts are likely to be present at an accidental ignition.

Where you may get by with 10s or a few 100 miligrams of a primary, and limit your synthesis (and handling exposure) to sub gram quantities, some of the devices described here as having been used to initiate AMONAL contain at least several grams of metal fueled compositions- Which are probably being made up in batches of 10s or even 100s of grams. They may not be as FAST as those primary explosives, but they release a LOTof energy, burning metal, Sulfur or sulfide fuels. Thermal dammage and sheer quantity present may more than make up for any difference in brissance related dammages. Burn your body and appendages severely while slightly blowing them off with flash, or utterly shatter them with a highly brissant primary- neither is a good thing.

MineMan - 15-9-2016 at 17:27

I completely agree, I think some primary's would be safer. But to transport a primary in the states you need a magazine, and placarding, and another magazine to store it on your property, which can not be in a residential area per ATF.

So this is our only option, pyrotechnic mixtures that can be made on site.

Fulmen, can you lead me to that document??

Fulmen - 16-9-2016 at 02:41

Sorry, I have no Idea where to begin. It was 25 years ago...

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-9-2016 at 04:06

Philou. Did you perform impact and friction tests on your potassium chlorate, sulfur and charcoal mix? How many grams did you use to destroy the 5mm steel pipe? Would you feel safe causally mixing up 2-5 grams of this mixture. Since it can be made in the field it would not need to be stored!

Chlorates sure are sensitive...especially with NM...

Chlorate with NM are not very sensitive...NM is not acidic enough to generate sensitivity troubles with chlorate and chlorate is not basic enough to increase sensitivity of NM...so the sensitivity is only ruled by the NM as if it was alone.

About my brisant chlorate mix...I did it into the 200 g range...electric coffee grinding of KClO3 on one side to a fine powder and S (flower of S) /CaCO3 (chalk for black board writing) on the other side...then incorporating the C black of fume into the fine KClO3 and finally integrating the fine grinded S/CaCO3....the mix was deep black and had the consistency of flour...it was also quite light and obviously full of air.

Never made friction or impact test on it only straw fuse test and both end open Copper pipe (3 cm height*3 cm diameter).
The fuse of 2mm diameter and 30 cm long burned in less than 1/2 second...usually it burns in about 20-30 seconds...
The open Copper pipe detonated with loose powder unpacked...about two-three large tea spoon (approx 15-25g)...one open end put on argileous ground the other receiving a normal plastic drink straw fuse containing slow burning (ungrinded) chlorate/S/C (charcoal not black of fumes)/CaCO3 mix

The galvanized iron-steel pipe was about 20 cm long and 4 cm diameter with screew cap...one 3mm hole drilled onto the side with slow plastic burning drinking straw fuse...the pipe contained about 200 g of the loose mix.
Since the mix is so powefull, I never had need to compact it...also knowing that Pirat bangers are about 2/3 to 3/4 empty of powder...it was useless.

If I redo that mix I will for sure do more tests about sensitivity to friction, shock, power vs common HE, lead block test, brisance by sand crushing, etc

[Edited on 16-9-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

MineMan - 16-9-2016 at 08:57

Good info! Philou, don't know how else to convince you, but 60 parts KCLO3 20Parts NM 10 parts Al powder(2 micron) and nitrocellulose to gel the mixture is quite sensative to impact. Try it yourself

What were the ratios you used for your mixture? Is the KCLO3 and sulfur only very sensitive because of the acid from the impure sulfur..? Or does that only make it worse?

Praxichys - 16-9-2016 at 10:19

There is more than velocity to consider when determining the output of an explosive.

The most important factors are density, volume of gas produced per weight of explosive, energy released, and detonation velocity.

It wouldn't really matter even if some flash mixture was able to truly detonate. Even the best flashes barely approach the velocities of the weakest high explosives, and many of the byproducts of flash are high-MP solids like Al2O3, K2CO3, KCl, and others, while most HEs completely disappear into low-BP gases with extremely high vapor pressures.

Most flash powders are mixtures that can be "dead-pressed," which is to say that there is a maximum acceptable pressing density after which the velocity of combustion actually slows down. Many firework fountains and rockets are flash mixtures pressed strongly into a tube to reduce the burn rate. A true HE cannot be dead pressed and in fact detonates best at full theoretical density, since maximum density is a virtue to the mechanics of detonation in the first place. If you were to find a flash mixture that was detonable, it would likely struggle to perform as standard flash, and vice versa. This is why devices designed to achieve DDT are either multicomponent trains incorporating come degree of confinement (which is less preferable because of complexity and margin for manufacturing error), or single compounds with quasi-HE properties known to accelerate to full detonation almost immediately without confinement like lead azide, DDNP, mercury fulminate, etc. As a dead-press-able mixture, flash powder will have a hard time fulfilling either of these roles.

Either way, the comparatively low output potential of flash powders, regardless of DDT, is insufficient in almost all cases to reliably initiate high-order detonation in most secondary explosives and is thus a poor choice of initiator filling, even for something as sensitive as NG or EGDN. You would either scatter your charge about, or initiate a rapid deflagration or low-order detonation of your secondary which may eventually accelerate to full detonation, but much of the output will have been lost. This may not be detectable to the naked eye or ear, but will show dramatically against a witness plate. A brisant detonator is essential to gain maximum output from your secondary. Regardless of its ability to achieve DDT, flash powder will always be a poor choice as an initiator.

Fulmen - 16-9-2016 at 13:37

The performance doesn't have to be that great if it's used in combination with a safer and less sensitive primary. Once you include primary explosives that doesn't reliably ignite from flame alone your options multiply.

OneEyedPyro - 16-9-2016 at 14:59

Good info! Philou, don't know how else to convince you, but 60 parts KCLO3 20Parts NM 10 parts Al powder(2 micron) and nitrocellulose to gel the mixture is quite sensative to impact. Try it yourself

I've found that hammer testing can be a decieving thing, it's not a good way to judge practical sensitivity in my opinion.

Even TNT will give a nice pop in a hammer test if you hit it just right.
At the same time I've had trouble getting much more sensitive explosives to go requiring a dozen or more hits.

Crystal size/structure, the density of the EM, the amount of EM being tested and most importantly how squarely you hit it are factors in how hard of a blow it'll take.

MineMan - 16-9-2016 at 16:28

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

The performance doesn't have to be that great if it's used in combination with a safer and less sensitive primary. Once you include primary explosives that doesn't reliably ignite from flame alone your options multiply.

Nearly everyone here is missing my point.... Which it to make a legal detonator which can be made on site. I know flash is not the best option, but it is the LEGAL option. If there are other binary, trinary, or the such mixtures other than flash that have potential than that works to... I just don't know of any... Except sodium benzoate mixtures.

Primary's are NOT legal to transport.

Bert - 16-9-2016 at 17:38

Are you utterly wedded to the concept of a blasting cap type functionality?

That AMONAL exploding target was designed to be fired by IMPACT. You could certainly make a small "slapper" device, with either a high voltage discharge or a conventional propellant to get the impactor moving.

Think outside your box. Please do not end up inside one, though!

OneEyedPyro - 16-9-2016 at 18:32

I wonder how ammonium benzoate would perform in place of sodium benzoate, I assume it would be more powerful.
Obviously NH4ClO3 would be a big concern with any mixture involving an ammonium compound and a chlorate so that's not an option.

Have you considered ammonium perchlorate mixtures?
I'm actually pretty curious what NH4ClO4/ammonium benzoate would do.
Potassium/sodium is just dead weight, the extra gas and energy output that the NH4 provides could make a big difference.

Marvin - 17-9-2016 at 04:30

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

A true HE cannot be dead pressed and in fact detonates best at full theoretical density, since maximum density is a virtue to the mechanics of detonation in the first place.

"Dead pressing" for HEs is about sensitivity not VoD. Mercury fulminate is a primary and can be dead pressed. Voids tend to make high explosives more sensitive, this is what microballoons are for.

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-9-2016 at 16:09

Good info! Philou, don't know how else to convince you, but 60 parts KCLO3 20Parts NM 10 parts Al powder(2 micron) and nitrocellulose to gel the mixture is quite sensative to impact. Try it yourself

What were the ratios you used for your mixture? Is the KCLO3 and sulfur only very sensitive because of the acid from the impure sulfur..? Or does that only make it worse?

So your formula is:
60 KClO3
20 NM
10 Al powder (2µm)
?? NC
(I suppose the NC is 10)

I know NM and NC do form an explosive gel but it is not too sensitive on its own...but of course if adsorbed onto a solid...the sensitivity may increase...
It may look paradoxal since I know that Kieselghur earth of diatomaecius is stabilizing NG into dynamite...but usually in practical tests NG is adsorbed into a textile/fabric stuff to do impact tests...otherwise it is often splashed all over the testing place without explosion.
Maybe it has to do with capillarity forces holding the liquid sample into place (reduction of the diffusion that otherwise would allow the sample to dissipate impact energy) or bubbles entrapped (increasing sensitivity) or friction of impact against the solid with a thin layer of liquid on top?

So here maybe the moderately sensitive gellified explosive becomes more sensitive to impact and friction owing to the solid Al/KClO3...this hypothesis remains to be tested comparatively to further confirm or infirm.

Also of significant importance, the % of nitration of the NC...the higher it is the higher the sensitivity...

The ratios of my mix came from an obscure reading out of an old pyrotechnic book...it was used for mines during the first WW owing to its brisance.
75 KClO3
12,5 S
12,5 C
I was very surprised to notice it was the same ratio as usual black powder (75 KNO3/ 12,5 S / 12,5 C).

The sensitivity comes mainly from three factors:
1°) the low decomposition T° of KClO3 setting pure O2 free...this temperature is lowered by catalyst...what may be mineral (like MnO2 or KMnO4, S or C) or organic (like suggar)
2°) the low ignition T° of S and oxydation into SO2 and SO3
3°) the generated acidity of SO3 is part of the process but is mainly a problem for storage and related safety.

In fact just like for common black powder...
KClO3/C mix is harder to ignite than KClO3/S/C mix.
KClO3/S mix is harder to ignite than KClO3/S/C mix.
I have noticed that the red glowing charcoal needs to be present for correct ignition of KClO3

MineMan - 17-9-2016 at 19:48

The NC I used was double base smokeless powder.

All, just had a sucsussful det of an Ammonal like mixture with only 2grams of standard. flash powder. The ammonal container was not to strong either.

I am near positive it was a full power det. It formed a crater. No remains of the container could be found except the bottom which was drivin into the ground

I will do witness plate tests soon.

NM-mix

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-9-2016 at 02:59

I belive , that mix KClO3 60....NM 20........Al 10......NC double 10 will be full detonation. But this mix can detonate low VoD as Cheddite 2000m/s. Or some between ratios, I estimate 3 200m/s. But for 3200m ? But It is better Ammotropin. Easy and cheap. If you have A. nitrate. And not only KClO3 as basic compound. Dr.

MineMan - 18-9-2016 at 07:56

LL, the Ammotropin, to make this can the hexamine and AN be mixed together as a powder, or must they be melted together?

Gordon mixture

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-9-2016 at 11:25

Always melted together at 145 C with 1% resin from pine and pour on cold Aluminium plate. Scratch, grinding, at 80 - 40 C. Add Al powder 2- 3 %. Still warm filling to hermetic closure. All is very quickly process. AN 90 HMTA 9 resin 1. Best and maybe most powerfull mix and even very quickly made. In diameter 50 mm is VoD about 5000 m/s. Inventor William Gordon (google patents) . Dr.

Dornier 335A - 18-9-2016 at 12:09

MineMan, BoomBoom314159 have performed tests with flash powder initiated ammonal. His conclusion was that it only goes low order. The only way to find out is to test it against a witness plate.

MineMan - 18-9-2016 at 12:44

Dornier I saw those videos. He used 6 grams of flash, while my mixture is sensitive enough to only need 2 grams... and this is standard flash, not sulfur, no magnesium, no ferroceium, no KCLO3, just 70/30 3 micron Al and KCLO4.

If the tests show low order than I suppose I will have to try one of your super flash recipes...! One where I do not have to grind for hours to get 2 grams

.

Bert, Oh I am using my imagination, don't you worry! I just don't see how a slapper could work with these deflagerating binary mixes. Of course if any of these mixes could detonate that would be great.... Dornier is the pro on that...

MineMan - 18-9-2016 at 17:28

Tried two more tests tonight with 2grams of regular flash in a 223 brass rifle case like last time. The ammonal recipe was very similar, but these times it did not work... I thought I would have bragging rights ;")... bummer.

The ammonal recipe I used was
Powdered AN:87
1000 mesh Mg: 2 grams
2 micron Al:4 grams
Microballoons: 2grams
NM: 5 grams

I think the time it worked I used less NM... about 2%. I would not think a couple of percent would have made a difference. I have noticed with shooting these mixtures that less NM makes them more sensitive, a lot of times they will just catch on fire if I have too much NM.

Ok Dornier 335A I need your help since you are the flash powder king. What flash recipe is my best bet with micron sized powder? Is it still the KCLO4 and Mg??

I really want to nail this down... it has occupied my mind for several hours each day! Does anybody have any ideas to make the AN mixture more sensitive? I heard that one percent of iron oxide, but this was from an unverified source?

My only thoughts are small amounts of KCLO3 or red phosphorus. I can't find any place to buy the RP though... even for outrageous prices...

OneEyedPyro - 18-9-2016 at 18:22

KClO3 and ammonium nitrate will start to form ammonium chlorate under moist conditions and as you know powdered AN is very hard to keep dry. If mixed and used immediately I'm guessing it would be no big deal.

I've heard that AN/KClO3/ethylene glycol has been used as an exploding target and it appears to be safe but I believe they used coated, prilled AN and with yours being powdered it could react much faster.

Chlorate definately does a good job sensitizing AN/Al though, I've used 93/5/2 prilled AN/Al/KClO3 as a cheap 9mm sensitive target but mixing it just made me too nervous.

In any case I think using a small quantity of a sensitive AN mix like 95/5 AN/Al as a booster is a more practical alternative to trying to make your main charge more sensitive.

[Edited on 19-9-2016 by OneEyedPyro]

MineMan - 19-9-2016 at 08:19

One eye. That is ecentially what I did, was 95 AN 5 Al but a little nitro to make it more sensative.

OneEyedPyro - 19-9-2016 at 16:01

I've used 95/5 AN/Al both prilled and powdered with about 5 grams of flash as a cap and it has always worked.
The addition of NM often actually serves to decrease sensitivity by increasing density so maybe that extra bit was responsible for the failed det.

There are quite a few variables involved and IMO 2 grams of flash is barely enough so it's not too surprising to see hit and miss results.

I think standard flash powder is very unlikely to exceed 1,000 meters per second and with basically no gas output, well it's just not a very effective initiator.

MineMan - 20-9-2016 at 09:09

I think you are right about the increased density. I will try 5 percent by weight of microballoons.

There is a video on YouTube where someone uses .2 grams of SADS for ammonal with 5percent NM. I tried it and could not repeat those results. I posted a link to this video earlier.

Has anyone used star molecule Al powder for flash, if so, does it work better than German Dark?

MineMan - 23-9-2016 at 14:39

Well All, it looks like flash can go high order...

See below...

https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2011/dgac10c3/...

It can also be used in a detonator to detonate PETN in 120mg quantities if ammonium perchlorate is used.... according to this patent. The trick is using an AP composition since it produces gas.

https://www.google.com/patents/US5945627

"An in-hole detonator was prepared in an aluminum shell. The initiation portion consisted of 110 mg of HEP with a formulation of 80% ammonium perchlorate and 20% atomized aluminum which was inserted into a 14 mm long steel sleeve and pressed to a pressure of 2200 psi. Forty eight (48) mg of PETN was also inserted into the sleeve and also pressed to a pressure of 2200 psi. The HEP and "lower density" PETN, contained within the steel sleeve, were inserted into a detonator tube containing a pre-pressed charge of 740 mg of PETN which had bee pressed to a pressure of 3427 psi. When detonated, the detonator provided a good result in a "print" test."

Nay sayers.... see the proof above, please do not disappoint me in your responses.

Work right now is keeping me from testing the HEP detonator, but if anyone else would like to test it I will give you a virtual smile...

And yes I know the HEP (High Energy Pyrotechnic composition) does not go high order, but it does detonate PETN with 120mg!

[Edited on 23-9-2016 by MineMan]

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-9-2016 at 01:53

@ Mineman,

It is all a matter of sensitivity of the second HE.

If you try to detonate TATNB (unsensitive triamino-trinitrobenzene) with flash, it would be no go...TNT might also be problematic...TNP, maybe...for sure sensitive nitric esters or nitramines like methyl nitrate, EGDN, NG, ETN, XPN, MHN, high N% NC, PETN, RDX, HMX, MEDINA, MNA, EDNA,...will more likely do.

You of course understand that if you try to detonate silver nitrato acetylide complex (SADS - SANC) you will suceed 100% of the time no matter the energy content of the pyro composition...because SADS is very sensitivite to shock and heat...here with PETN you are closer to SADS than to TNT...

Into your first link, it is also a matter of quantity...of course 100g (or above) of deflagrating energetic pyrotechnic mix (or hot burning mix like a thermite) will pierce through the 1 mm iron steel test plate...but it is not a detonation stricto-senso.

Bert - 26-9-2016 at 22:37

Quote:

The trick is using an AP composition since it produces gas.

There have been some who have filled aerial salutes with a 50:50 by weight mixture of a fast burning, double based flake reloading powder such as "Bullseye" and a standard 70% Potassium perchlorate:30% black Aluminum (+ 1% Cab-O-Sil fumed silica as an anti cake) flash powder.

I was present for perhaps a dozen tests, using the same perchlorate flash in all identically sized and contained devices (3" cylinder salute heavy spiral wound cans with double chipboard end discs, strung and pasted as normaly done for discharge from a mortar), half of the salutes used flash mixed with various common (on the USA market) fast, high NG content double based powders.

I do not recall if a standard total weight of charge was used when loading the smokeless mixtures or if all were filled to max volume, which would have resulted in a bit of variability in total charge weights, due to different grain shapes and dimensions of the reloading powders tried.

The straight flash devices were all loaded to 100% of available volume by jolting mildly on the bench to settle the powder.

The "enhanced" devices were fired alternately with the regular flash salutes, and several reasonably experienced fireworks display crew members at a good distance took notes on (apparent) loudness and rated them for.their preferred sound quality, no recording or non subjective analysis was done.

The devices with the reloading powder mixture were all deemed louder than straight flash powder devices, some quite substantially so. Herculese Bullseye and an imported reloading powder marketed as "Russian Bullseye replacement" of unknown manufacture were the hands down favorites for apparent sound volume.

Apparent density of the flash as it was loaded in these devices was rather less than that of these smokeless powders- The charges with the smokeless could easily be of greater weight for a similar volume device, and obviously had much more gas output as well. Total energy? Did not do the math at the time, and did not retain the figures needed to compute that.

All of the powders used have a reputation for damageing pistols if a double charge were thrown, and most were capable of being so charged in 9mm or .45acp and a projectile loaded to standard overall length without noticable effort of compression, using a hand reloading press.

The pressure experienced by the smokeless grains distributed inside of a well contained flash powder salute explosion likely exceeds the recomended working pressures of such double based powders, which were mostly intended for economical target pistol loads. Possibly by enough for pressure exponents to do interesting things-

All of the components used in these tests were legal for unlicensed persons to store and transport (separately, in small ammounts!) in the USA at the time of testing (around 2000-2002). I can not speak as to the likely legal outcome if one were to be arrested these days while posessing such a bill of materials, caseings, ignition supplies and AMONAL in "kit form".

I strongly recomend you not put yourself in a position where either BATFE or your local prosecutors decide to empirically determine that outcome for you...

James Ikanov - 28-9-2016 at 17:07

I use a variety of flash I've nicknamed High Performance Flash, but that's a bit of a misnomer, I suppose.

Basically the theory was that by adding a fuel that produces more gas (sugar) I could get a louder report while getting away with using less aluminum.... Although it does use quite a bit of KClO4.

Imagine my surprise when I realized that even using very coarse sugar (the sort you'd usually pour straight into your coffee, not even confectioners sugar) coated lightly in aluminum powder the stuff kicks off with significantly more brightness than "standard" flash. I touched off about a dime sized or smaller amount with a torch and suddenly realized I was really, really blind.

I think if the sugar was powdered more finely (very finely) and the KClO4 and recieved the same treatment, it might have the potential to go high order, especially if mixed intimately. But I'm certainly too lazy/busy/broke to keep making the stuff.

I've also had interesting results with adding small amount of thermite into my flash, but that mostly ends with more heat and light rather than a larger report.

I realize a "larger report" is subjective" but I figure if the shockwave/deflagration was getting faster/more violent then the report would as well increase.

20 parts KClO4, 4 parts sugar, six parts finely powdered Aluminum. YMMV. I've really only done flame tests with the stuff. And it would probably be very unfair to compare a batch made with my grade of sugar or other such fuel to something made with very fine sugar.

The mixture definitely needs some tweaking, but it performs pretty well for what it is.

Marvin - 29-9-2016 at 05:39

Typically it's the other way around. High order tends to produced a snap that doesn't sound too impressive. A cardboard tube part filled with black powder can produce a much more impressive Booom.

Adding things to flash that produce more gas is going to cool the shock wave. It may be extra oxidiser for the aluminium but those reactions are normally slow. Aluminium in existing HE mixes increases the energy released, but the detonation properties, as far as I recall, don't get faster.

Bert - 29-9-2016 at 07:19

As Marvin said.

Don't rely on perceived sound quality to determine speed/power- Believe in results from witness plates.

MineMan - 7-10-2016 at 20:48

Well all using a special mixture of ammonal I learned that FP can does make ammonal go full order. One of the tricks is it seems that the mixture must be OB+, Bert, I think I recall you mentioning how AN OB+ mixtures are easier to det in another thread. I don't know why this is; if someone hear knows detonation theory I sure would like to be enlightened? In fact I believe I recently read that ANFO is most sensitive at 2% Diesel.

The explosion was very high pitched with a shockwave that could be felt from over 100' away. Each charge was a total weight of 150grams. The steel piece (witness plate) was 3mm thick on each side. The first two pictures are the charge and result from the FP detonator. The third picture is the result from using the same exact ammonal mixture, but, with a HE blasting cap (100mg SADS, .8grams TACP).

Many thanks to my ATF licensed friend who made these test possible! Bert and Philou, really looking forward to your replys! If anyone wants more details on this experiment please U2U me. You can see the bottom of the containers survived both detonations, also 223 bullets produce more pressure on impact as they pierced both sides.

MineMan - 7-10-2016 at 20:49

Picture of witness plate from exact mixture but using the TACP cap described above. I should aslo mention that these pictures do not represent fairly the damage that this hollow rectangle steel thing (can't remember the term) took. It was bent like a bow afterwards (see 4th pic (FP cap)), and the dent was about 1 inch deep. No holes though....

[Edited on 8-10-2016 by MineMan]

[Edited on 8-10-2016 by MineMan]

Gargamel - 9-10-2016 at 11:13

Thanks for sharing MineMan.

Could you provide more information, what exact formulas did you use?
What kind of container did you use for the flash?
And did you compress the flash somehow?
How many flash? At which diameter?

And concerning your ammonal:
What grade of AN was used, I mean high density prills just ground down or with some kind of activation procedure?

Besides:
I made some tests with KClO3/kerosine on a similar 3mm metal section. Initiated with a trditional cap though.
I found that this will pierce full holes into the metal.

Ive never tested Ammonal on witness plates though. But compared to your Ammonal the Cheddite in my test was clearly superiour.

[Edited on 9-10-2016 by Gargamel]

MineMan - 9-10-2016 at 12:53

Gargamel,

I do not want to publicly post much more details, as, this opens the door to using easily acquired chemicals which can be detonated by easily acquired delfagrating compounds like flash. You can PM me for specific questions.

We already knew that tannerite and ammonal mixtures could be set off with FP... but the thought was that they go low order... well maybe some do... but this mixture does not.

Regarding your cheddite being superior, there are several factors at play. One being..., I don't think it is. Two, I have no idea how much cheddite you used. Three, AN mixtures are usually low density unless plasticized. Four I have set off ANMAL with up to 20%NM with a traditional cap and it still did not pierce the steel section...

Where you using a 3mm plate or a section, because the explosion from my test would have pierced it, but it received support from the other side, so if your section is thicker than 1.5cm (including air space) it is irrelevant. Lastly, can cheddite be initiated by low quantities of flash...

Gargamel - 10-10-2016 at 11:43

Quote:

Regarding your cheddite being superior, there are several factors at play. One being..., I don't think it is

I agree. Thats why i wonder about the little damage your ammonal did.
And that's why I wonder where your AN is from and how you processed it. High density stuff would explain why it sucks.

Quote:

Two, I have no idea how much cheddite you used

130g in a plastic beaker, diameter 45mm.

Quote:

Where you using a 3mm plate or a section

A section. 60x40mm, where 40mm is the distance between the plates.

[Edited on 10-10-2016 by Gargamel]

[Edited on 10-10-2016 by Gargamel]

MineMan - 10-10-2016 at 12:37

Huh... interesting, like I said even my ANNMAL does not do that damage... with a regular cap

Do you know the density of your mixture? Have you tried to initiate that with FP... I am thinking you would add 2% of Al to your mix, not enough to make it a flammability hazard, but enough to sensitize it.

Gargamel - 13-10-2016 at 02:12

Quote:

with a regular cap

A regular cap with TATP?
Did you even dare to press this, especially the front part of the cap?

In my experience, while TATP or HMTD (I only have exerience with tha latter) do have a very nice power, the cannot compete with ETN, especially with hard pressed ETN.

I found that in many experiements charges do benefit very much from being kicked by hard pressed ETN rather than from HMTD.

Quote:

Do you know the density of your mixture?

About 1,4 to 1,5g/cubic cm.

Quote:

Have you tried to initiate that with FP... I am thinking you would add 2% of Al to your mix, not enough to make it a flammability hazard, but enough to sensitize it.

I will include that when I test Ammonal. Cheddites are said to be quite sensitive to shock...

[Edited on 13-10-2016 by Gargamel]

MineMan - 13-10-2016 at 11:06

Gargamel,

I used TACP, (VOD 7500m/s @ 2.1g/cc) not Acetone Peroxide...

Gargamel - 18-10-2016 at 12:44

Quote:

I used TACP, (VOD 7500m/s @ 2.1g/cc) not Acetone Peroxide...

Sorry, I misread this. In this case I would call it a proper initiation of course.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-10-2016 at 14:00

@Gargamel,
Nice Smurf googles :cool:

@Mineman,
AN based HE needs strong confinement to go to det.
Glass or plastic will never do provide enough confinement...as proven by your witness plate.

Also to cut neat through iron you need at least 6500-7000 m/s VOD...so 2500-3500 m/s will only bend or shred a cut (rough cut).

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

MineMan - 18-10-2016 at 21:00

@Gargamel,
Nice Smurf googles :cool:

Oh, but it did det PHILOU... did you not see the pictures! The witness plate was identical in both cases.

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-10-2016 at 08:18

@Gargamel,
Nice Smurf googles :cool:

Oh, but it did det PHILOU... did you not see the pictures! The witness plate was identical in both cases.

Yes I did see the pictures...but where was the charge placed?
Onto the bending/squized center or onto the metal and it dit all the tiny sharp holes?

If it is onto the bended place, then deflagration may do as much deformation work...maybe compare with fast deflagrating black powder actuated by the same detonator...

I had medium strenght black powder to completely reverse iron steel pipe 5 mm wall thickness (25 cm long and 4 cm diameter)(it did crack the welding all way long and twisted the pipe walls outside in and the inside out --> result a kind of rectangle folded in half).

Deflagro-detonating mix did confettis < 5 mm of the same pipe (except screew on caps that were schredded into flat star shape)

So sadly for low detonating mixes...witness plates are of little value to testimony for detonation instead of deflagration.

The only way to be sure is physical measurement of the flame front speed via oscilloscope, ultrafast camera or another in use method.

[Edited on 19-10-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

MineMan - 19-10-2016 at 11:57

No the holes are from bullets. The picture shows where the charge was placed. I did a charge with up to 20% NM and it did about the same damage!

Also, ammonal mixtures are low density, so we can't expect extreme damage. If it went low order it would have produced nitrous oxides which are easily visible. I could try a rock shattering test, or try a water gel type mixture to get better density... but I doubt a water based ammonal would be flash powder sensitive. Even ANFO can be detonated by an #8 cap (when powdered), so the test I did with the TACP cap should surly work for full order...

If I had to guess I would say this mixture had a VOD of 3500m/s

PHILOU Zrealone - 31-10-2016 at 05:08

BTW Mineman,
What is that flat circular metallic piece onto your picture and where does it come from?
Counter opposite backside of the bending?

MineMan - 31-10-2016 at 12:02

BTW Mineman,
What is that flat circular metallic piece onto your picture and where does it come from?
Counter opposite backside of the bending?

It is plastic actually, it is the bottom of the container, the only thing that survived.

specialactivitieSK - 1-11-2016 at 08:38

What is the best value for NH4ClO4 + Al flash powder ?

What is the best value for NH4ClO4 + benzoate whistle mix for whistle rocket ?

It is preferable to grinding or crystallization of the perchlorate to a powder ?

THX

MineMan - 1-11-2016 at 09:40

I have had zero luck with NH4CLO4 flash and Al. It won;t even ignite, I would love it to work though!

Any one have any luck or ideas... especially Dornier...?

specialactivitieSK - 2-11-2016 at 01:40

CuO catalyst for example?

PHILOU Zrealone - 2-11-2016 at 03:23

BTW Mineman,
What is that flat circular metallic piece onto your picture and where does it come from?
Counter opposite backside of the bending?

It is plastic actually, it is the bottom of the container, the only thing that survived.

The only ... besides you

.

This is also a proof that it was a "weak" deflagro-detonation.
But stil the shockwave and thrill must have been great

.

[Edited on 2-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PHILOU Zrealone - 2-11-2016 at 03:29