Sciencemadness Discussion Board - I'm an Aussie on holiday in the States...

I'm an Aussie on holiday in the States...

Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 21-12-2012 at 14:55

... and I'd like to take this chance to pick up reagents and glassware & other lab gear that are cheaper or easier to obtain than they are in Australia.

The parameters are:
1) they must all be things I can safely -- and legally -- bring back in my checked airline baggage or ship USPS international priority;
2) I'm a beginner in both inorganic and organic amateur chemistry, but I'd like to work through both Thompson's Home Chemistry and the Caveman Chemistry book; unfortunately I didn't think to write down a shopping list from either book. I've tried without success in Oz to get some of the more "exotic" reagents Caveman Chemistry calls for in the chapters on dyes and plastics.
3) I'm interested in doing some of the old "Bakelite" experiments in older home chemistry texts and magazine articles, but finding phenol crystals and formaldehyde in Oz has been a right pain in the arse. For phenol, would salicylic acid, say, be a good precursor for my purposes?

-Bobby

Helping out an Aussie chemist.

Fishman Jack - 21-12-2012 at 15:24

I have a retail science shop in the Kansas City area (Parkville, MO) and we sell nearly 700 different chemicaks and have experience in shipping them to Australia. We can help you with your chemical acquisition needs. We sell Robert Bruce Thompson's book and I am quite familiar with it.

Oscilllator - 21-12-2012 at 20:55

I live in australia to!
My advice would be to grab some 1/2L RBF's and other equipment that you need an EUD for. (And EUD is an end user agrement and is a thing you sign that basically says you're not going to make meth. It lets the cops know that you're a home chemist, and they may (or may not) come round to your house for a visit.)

Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 24-12-2012 at 13:47

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

I live in australia to!
My advice would be to grab some 1/2L RBF's and other equipment that you need an EUD for. ...

Yeah, I ordered some 250ml RBFs and they sent me 500ml flasks. I decided to keep mum.

Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 24-12-2012 at 14:10

So, one of my original questions was about possible less noxious precursors for phenol. Salicylic acid isn't corrosive, so I reckon it ought to be benign enough to pack in my checked luggage, but I don't know for sure. It's not on any of the watch lists I've seen, but am I asking for trouble if the TSA finds white powder correctly labeled in my bag?

Aspirin is also a possibility. It's much cheaper than in Australia, and it comes in much larger quantities per bottle. Having a dozen jumbo size bottles of aspirin in my checked bag might raise eyebrows, but it wouldn't be illegal, would it? To save space I would be tempted to at least crush it to powder so it would fit in fewer bottles, maybe even hydrolyse it and get rid of the starch(?) binder and other inert junk. Then I'm back to a possibly suspicious-looking white powder.

Is this a crazy idea, or would I be better of if I just try harder to find a source for phenol crystals in Oz? And I still haven't found a likely sane precursor for formaldehyde (though I keep following rumours that aquarium supply stores have formalin solution for treating some fish disease, I've yet to find a shop that actually has any).

-Bobby

phlogiston - 24-12-2012 at 15:15

Airline people understandably have a very short fuse when it comes to unidentified powders/liquids of any sort in lugagge. They have no way to quickly verify that your powder is labeled correctly. At the very least, expect to be delayed for many hours if they notice anything that triggers their interest.

Why not ship your items to yourself by mail? At least you'll get home normally, and I don't think mail packages are checked nearly as well as luggage on a passengers jet.

Oscilllator - 24-12-2012 at 15:25

Quote: Originally posted by Gearhead_Shem_Tov

Aspirin is also a possibility. It's much cheaper than in Australia, and it comes in much larger quantities per bottle. Having a dozen jumbo size bottles of aspirin in my checked bag might raise eyebrows, but it wouldn't be illegal, would it? To save space I would be tempted to at least crush it to powder so it would fit in fewer bottles, maybe even hydrolyse it and get rid of the starch(?) binder and other inert junk. Then I'm back to a possibly suspicious-looking white powder.

-Bobby

airport security: whats this 1kg of white powder you have?
you: Its aspirin

airport security: Why do you have 1kg of purified aspirin in your bag?
you: Ummmmm.. errr...
airport security: Step this way please
you: Shit!

Thats basically whats going to happen if you try to purify it and put it on plane. At least if you keep it in bottles they'll probably let you through

smaerd - 24-12-2012 at 16:57

I can't imagine putting a bunch of chemicals onto an air-plane with all of the security checks. Not to mention its not really the safest thing for some compounds. Be sure to check to see how they are transported first.

Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 26-12-2012 at 12:59

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

Quote: Originally posted by Gearhead_Shem_Tov

Aspirin is also a possibility. ... To save space I would be tempted to at least crush it to powder so it would fit in fewer bottles, maybe even hydrolyse it and get rid of the starch(?) binder and other inert junk. Then I'm back to a possibly suspicious-looking white powder.

-Bobby

airport security: whats this 1kg of white powder you have?
you: Its aspirin

Remember, this would be going in *checked* baggage so that particular scenario shouldn't arise. More to the point, I've now found animal aspirin powder is available in 1-lb+ quantities for even less than the cheapest generic aspirin, and it needn't have any binder, dye, or excipient crap to separate out; it also comes in accurately labeled packages/containers that even the most suspicious sorts could readily determine were harmless. The only question left in my mind is whether there are customs issues on the Australian side, so I'll need to check the Australian Quarantine and Customs website to make sure.

Of course, this is not an ideal world, and a bag with a pound or two of horse aspirin might be deemed unusual. The TSA searched a checked bag of mine two years ago because it contained a half dozen tubes of toothpaste; not many people would have that many in the same bag, so I'm sure it was an unusual enough thing that they were right to check. They decided, by whatever means, that the toothpaste really was toothpaste, and I only knew about the search after the fact because of the TSA calling cards left behind. (I'm sensitive to sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) which is in nearly every toothpaste sold in the USA -- and I've not found a single brand that doesn't have it in Australia -- so I stock up each time I come back to the States.)

The issue with posting stuff is that it would not be included in the import duty free portion I can claim for accompanied baggage.

-B

Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 26-12-2012 at 13:07

Quote: Originally posted by smaerd

I can't imagine putting a bunch of chemicals onto an air-plane with all of the security checks. Not to mention its not really the safest thing for some compounds. Be sure to check to see how they are transported first.

Naturally, I must assume that any bag containing my goodies will be closely examined, and of course I need to make sure there aren't any surprise phase or allotrope changes with lower air pressure and cold temperatures. And I'd put any remotely incompatible chemicals in separate bags.

Another thing I'm looking at is phenolphthalein powder -- ridiculously overpriced in Australia; I would only need a little bit, so it would be worth it.

-B

Doc B - 1-1-2013 at 21:36

You could easily make phenol by reacting halobenzene (eg chlorobenzene) with sodium hydroxide. The chemicals required to do this are available, hassle free, in Australia.

Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 2-1-2013 at 10:24

Would 1,4-dichlorobenzene be a possibility, too? I see it is one of the ingredients in urinal cakes, it's less toxic & flammable, though it apparently sublimes a bit at room temperature.

I'm supposing dechlorination to benzene could also be done via NaOH, correct? Would a substitution reaction be more direct/easier since it's phenol, not benzene I'm after?

I don't have my reference library available (I am on holiday, after all), however a little bit of poking around on wikipedia suggests that urinal blocks are now para-dichlorobenzene-free, though no citation is given. I note that Recochem (parent of Diggers) sells the stuff in flake and block form in Australia, so it doesn't appear to have been banned or restricted. Has anyone purchased from them? It's in their industrial chemicals division, but a cursory search through recochem.com.au failed to yield their business terms.

[Edited on 2-1-2013 by Gearhead_Shem_Tov]

[Edited on 2-1-2013 by Gearhead_Shem_Tov]

hyfalcon - 2-1-2013 at 18:08

I never thought of sourcing my aspirin this way! Sure is cheaper!

Code:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87c44e-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

Doc B - 3-1-2013 at 15:09

Quote: Originally posted by Gearhead_Shem_Tov

Would 1,4-dichlorobenzene be a possibility, too? I see it is one of the ingredients in urinal cakes, it's less toxic & flammable, though it apparently sublimes a bit at room temperature.

I'm supposing dechlorination to benzene could also be done via NaOH, correct? Would a substitution reaction be more direct/easier since it's phenol, not benzene I'm after?

I don't have my reference library available (I am on holiday, after all), however a little bit of poking around on wikipedia suggests that urinal blocks are now para-dichlorobenzene-free, though no citation is given. I note that Recochem (parent of Diggers) sells the stuff in flake and block form in Australia, so it doesn't appear to have been banned or restricted. Has anyone purchased from them? It's in their industrial chemicals division, but a cursory search through recochem.com.au failed to yield their business terms.

[Edited on 2-1-2013 by Gearhead_Shem_Tov]

[Edited on 2-1-2013 by Gearhead_Shem_Tov][/]

The dichloro is in some moth balls, if I'm not mistaken. Diggers/Recochem are stocked wildly in oz retail, they list phenyle as the active ingredient in their wheelie bin sanitizer. I'm not sure but expect its a Creosol/Phenol/Xylenol mixture.

Hydrolysis of chlorobenzene by steam or base would yield phenol. I'm not sure the dichloro would be suitable feed stock for phenol, at least directly. Where there is a will there is a way though. If I were in the same possition as you, I would be saving the opportunity to obtain the neigh on impossible or the ridiculously expensive items comparative to the ease and availability of what is locally synthesized &/or obtainable.

Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 5-1-2013 at 20:45

Quote: Originally posted by Doc B

Quote: Originally posted by Gearhead_Shem_Tov

The dichloro is in some moth balls, if I'm not mistaken. Diggers/Recochem are stocked wildly in oz retail, they list phenyle as the active ingredient in their wheelie bin sanitizer. I'm not sure but expect its a Creosol/Phenol/Xylenol mixture.

Hydrolysis of chlorobenzene by steam or base would yield phenol. I'm not sure the dichloro would be suitable feed stock for phenol, at least directly. Where there is a will there is a way though. If I were in the same possition as you, I would be saving the opportunity to obtain the neigh on impossible or the ridiculously expensive items comparative to the ease and availability of what is locally synthesized &/or obtainable.

OK, I'm all ears ... er ... screens ... empty buffers? Whatever. Any particular suggestions for someone who wants to do some basic polymer chemistry (Bakelite, nylon, rubber, etc.)?

-Bobby