Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Licensing?

hjhearle - 8-11-2012 at 03:40

A few days ago I got a message from a guy asking me to make him some sodium nitrite reagent for some unknown cause. He was willing to pay me for whatever it took to synthesise. Is this actually legal or do you need a license to commercially produce chemicals for people? Seeing as I'm only a school pupil in my final year I would presume it's unlawful to do so? :o

tetrahedron - 8-11-2012 at 05:21

it might be illegal to sell certain poisons without a permit. also you'll need to comply with health/environment protection regulations.

Mailinmypocket - 8-11-2012 at 05:36

I don't know if that is considered "commercial production". It's not a controlled substance as far as I know but things may be different in your country. You could be held responsible in some way if some injury or damages result from his use of the product you sold him.

Depends on the intended use also... If he wants it for harmless chemistry experiments I wouldn't worry much. But if he wants a kilo or two with the intention to make alkyl nitrites (poppers) to sell to people... That might be a different story.

Can he not buy it from a chemical supplier or eBay?

plastics - 8-11-2012 at 08:42

Why bother? Why doesn't he just buy it off ebay?

This guy seems to have the stuff coming out of his ears

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-Sodium-nitrite-high-quality-/...

tetrahedron - 8-11-2012 at 09:18

a simple google search for 'sale of poisons site:uk' can be very informative:

1. Sale of poisons

2.
Quote:
A business must be registered with the local authority to sell poisons which are included in Part II of the poisons list and must be on that authority’s list of people entitled to sell poisons. The retailing of poisons is controlled by the Poisons Act 1972. The Poisons List Order 1982 contains a list of poisons covered by the Poisons Act. Part I of this list contains poisons that may only be sold by a registered pharmacist. Part II of the list contains the poisons which cannot be sold unless you are registered to do so with your local authority.


3. Poisons Act 1972:
Quote:
Regulation of sale of poisons.

(1)Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall not be lawful—

...

(b)for a person to sell any non-medicinal poison which is a substance included in Part II of the Poisons List, unless—

(i)he is a person lawfully conducting a retail pharmacy business and the sale is effected on premises which are a registered pharmacy, or

(ii)his name is entered in a local authority’s list in respect of the premises on which the poison is sold;

(c)for a person to sell any non-medicinal poison, whether it is a substance included in Part I or in Part II of the Poisons List, unless the container of the poison is labelled in the prescribed manner—

(i)with the name of the poison, and

(ii)in the case of a preparation which contains a poison as one of its ingredients, with the prescribed particulars as to the proportion which the poison contained in the preparation bears to the total ingredients, and

(iii)with the word “poison” or other prescribed indication of the character of the article, and

(iv)with the name of the seller of the poison and the address of the premises on which it is sold.


4. Poisons List Order 1982:
Quote:
...
Potassium hydroxide
Sodium hydroxide
Sodium nitrite
Sulphuric acid
...


in other parts of europe the regulations might vary, but from 5% concentration NaNO2 and KNO2 are classified as toxic.

note that oxalic acid can only be sold by a pharmacist :o are these lists up to date?

[Edited on 8-11-2012 by tetrahedron]

cyanureeves - 8-11-2012 at 15:24

it might not be legal but at least you'll show him you put your money where your mouth is. i bet there are chemists and doctors out there claiming all sorts of know how and are just a bunch of tinkerers.he might trust you more than anyone he knows or maybe also he wants to set you up but he is contracting you to manufacture also. i guess sometimes its better to be called a quack by a shyster because nothing will be lost than to be called a pro by a district attorney in some court.tough call aint it?

hjhearle - 9-11-2012 at 01:20

yeah I did a chemspider search for the hazards and it said it was toxic, causes CNS injury etc. so yeah think I'll pass on that one! :P

The guy probably could get it from other sources or direct from a supplier like Alfa Aesar or summat...... mind you, does sound good if he's willing to pay but I think I'll stay out of this one! Thanks guys :)

Sodium Nitrate

cal - 9-11-2012 at 02:45

Quote: Originally posted by plastics  
Why bother? Why doesn't he just buy it off ebay?

This guy seems to have the stuff coming out of his ears

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-Sodium-nitrite-high-quality-/...


SODIUM NITRATE IS AVAILABLE AS A FERTILIZER AT HOME AND GARDEN STORES. THAT IS WHERE I BUY IT.:cool:




[Edited on 9-11-2012 by ScienceSquirrel]

tetrahedron - 9-11-2012 at 03:17

Quote: Originally posted by hjhearle  
causes CNS injury
this is for alkyl nitrites..did you get the right one?

a way out would be you order it for him (e.g. from that ebay seller) and charge him for the service =D

ScienceSquirrel - 9-11-2012 at 06:03

Quote: Originally posted by cal  
Quote: Originally posted by plastics  
Why bother? Why doesn't he just buy it off ebay?

This guy seems to have the stuff coming out of his ears

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-Sodium-nitrite-high-quality-/...


SODIUM NITRATE IS AVAILABLE AS A FERTILIZER AT HOME AND GARDEN STORES. THAT IS WHERE I BUY IT.:cool:


There is a difference between sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite.

ScienceSquirrel - 9-11-2012 at 06:10

Quote: Originally posted by tetrahedron  
a simple google search for 'sale of poisons site:uk' can be very informative:

1. Sale of poisons

2.
Quote:
A business must be registered with the local authority to sell poisons which are included in Part II of the poisons list and must be on that authority’s list of people entitled to sell poisons. The retailing of poisons is controlled by the Poisons Act 1972. The Poisons List Order 1982 contains a list of poisons covered by the Poisons Act. Part I of this list contains poisons that may only be sold by a registered pharmacist. Part II of the list contains the poisons which cannot be sold unless you are registered to do so with your local authority.


3. Poisons Act 1972:
Quote:
Regulation of sale of poisons.

(1)Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall not be lawful—

...

(b)for a person to sell any non-medicinal poison which is a substance included in Part II of the Poisons List, unless—

(i)he is a person lawfully conducting a retail pharmacy business and the sale is effected on premises which are a registered pharmacy, or

(ii)his name is entered in a local authority’s list in respect of the premises on which the poison is sold;

(c)for a person to sell any non-medicinal poison, whether it is a substance included in Part I or in Part II of the Poisons List, unless the container of the poison is labelled in the prescribed manner—

(i)with the name of the poison, and

(ii)in the case of a preparation which contains a poison as one of its ingredients, with the prescribed particulars as to the proportion which the poison contained in the preparation bears to the total ingredients, and

(iii)with the word “poison” or other prescribed indication of the character of the article, and

(iv)with the name of the seller of the poison and the address of the premises on which it is sold.


4. Poisons List Order 1982:
Quote:
...
Potassium hydroxide
Sodium hydroxide
Sodium nitrite
Sulphuric acid
...


in other parts of europe the regulations might vary, but from 5% concentration NaNO2 and KNO2 are classified as toxic.

note that oxalic acid can only be sold by a pharmacist :o are these lists up to date?

[Edited on 8-11-2012 by tetrahedron]


I suspect that the Part II list might be widely ignored.
Hydrochloric and sulphuric acids, sodium hydroxide, etc are widely available at hardware stores, potassium hydroxide is traded in kilo quantities for biodiesel manufacture.
Phosphoric acid is used for yeast washing in brewing, pH adjustment in hydroponics.
Formalin is used by Koi keepers.
Local authorities in Britain are overworked and facing big cut backs. I doubt any of them have the resources to maintain this list.

Eliteforum - 13-11-2012 at 11:00




Had the same a few days ago. Though I get randoms asking me to source all sorts..

hjhearle - 13-11-2012 at 12:12

yeah thats exactly what I got from the same guy asking for it. He offered to pay me too :cool:

Starting to wonder whether its a prank or what? What would he use it for?

tetrahedron - 13-11-2012 at 12:59

probably for curing meat =D

SM2 - 14-11-2012 at 07:42

^what tetrahedron said, or more likely, he wants to make isopropyl nitrite occasionally for it's immense aphrodisiac powers.