Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Preparing chemicals from the beginning (from the Earth)

Preparing chemicals from the beginning (from the Earth)

trip96 - 31-10-2012 at 10:14

Hey guys, I've been interested in creating useful chemicals from the Earth for a while now and thought it would be great to start a forum where everyone who had insight into how to do this could post their methods. This could also be a place to aggregate information.

Let's define some things, by useful I mean chemicals like: pure H2O, HCL, Acetone, Ether, Carbon, Sulphuric Acid, H2O2, NaOH, KOH, Ethanol, ect. Chemicals that the chemist tends to use frequently and chemicals that have many uses.

By from the Earth I mean being able to produce the chemical from natural resources. So no posts about, "it'd be easier to go buy muriatic acid at the hardware store." Or, "go buy distilled water." Let's pretend no stores exist. You're alone with minimal resources, electricity, and your glass.

I was thinking a great place to start would be into older methods of production, effectively making this a bit of a history lesson as well.

Shoot away if you're interested.

White Yeti - 31-10-2012 at 12:10

I'm tempted to mention that this topic has already been covered, albeit not in very much detail. This certainly is an interesting topic, and I admit that makes a decent topic for a though experiment. The biggest difficulty with making reagents from the ground up, is that heavy machinery is always necessary. This is due to the principle of economy of scale. Also, there are several different routes to make the same chemicals; the most popular method depends on which method will yield the highest profits. The production of plastics from petrol may profitable today, but this may not be the case 500 years from now when supply runs out.

plante1999 - 31-10-2012 at 12:50

I think I have done quite a bit of this type of chemistry. Hopefully you have seen my work. My current books series, Lab scale industrial synthesis is not exactly what you are looking for but all the process need only natural material (aside from the labware). At the time you may fount that some reagent/material arent natural but I have a very uge list of other preparation, for example the platinized asbestos need platinum which is a native element, meaning that the raw material for platinum is platinum. In this exemple the asbestos is made from crysotile a native rock. If that's what you are looking for then I may help you.

And in volume three making NaOH, KOH and HCl and few other things will be covered.

[Edited on 31-10-2012 by plante1999]

Fossil - 31-10-2012 at 17:51

Just off the top of my head

Mercury from roasting Cinnabar (covered by Plante1999)
CaCO3 from limestone or seashells (covered by Plante1999)
CaO from roasting limestone
Bromine from seawater
Iodine from seaweed
Lots of stuff from your piss, Urea, KNO3, ect.
H2SO4 from roasting pyrite or other sulfide ores in the presence of water vapor, 2 FeS2 + 7 O2 + 3 H2O → Fe2O3 + 3 H2SO4 + SO2 (Also from Plante1999)
Various chloride salts from sea water (fractional crystallization to seperate)
Sulfur, if you live next to a volcano, like Kawah Ijen
NH3 from animal horns
SiO2 from quartz or sand
Ethanol wash from fermenting sugar (needs to be distilled obviously)
Lots of stuff from wood ash

You can really do a lot if you have access to various ores.

Good luck!

[Edited on 2012-11-2 by Fossil]

trip96 - 1-11-2012 at 05:23

Thanks so much so far posters!!! This is exactly what I was looking for. Keep it coming please. I will slowly compile all of the sources. Please don't derail this into a flame war though.

vmelkon - 1-11-2012 at 09:37

My principle is doing things on a budget so I often use things I find being thrown away : copper wires, circuits, fridge compressor, metal sheets, plstic sheets, aluminum parts, mercury from thermostats.

I make my own distilled water. I recently made some 95 molar % ethanol (97% weight). Acetone could be made by dry distillation of calcium acetate which I've done but I didn't pursue it much. Made HNO3 via Berkland-Eyed process and made NaNO3. I wanted to make KMnO4 but that is not easy at all.

I would love to make some sulfur from H2SO4. No, I don't live next to a volcano.

As for NaOH/KOH, I might tackle that once more and this time, using equipment.

[Edited on 1-11-2012 by vmelkon]

CHRIS25 - 1-11-2012 at 12:25

Not exactly awe inspiring, but I have an endless supply of calcium carbonate. Loads of white seashells from the beach dissolved in HCL. It actually produces calcium chloride 2, but after dissolution is complete just add sodium bibicarbonate, filter and the precipitate is CaCO3 with sodium chloride in the filtrate.

Also a good one is to boil rhubarb leaves, a lot of them, you get Oxalic acid, as long as small quantities are all you need.

[Edited on 1-11-2012 by CHRIS25]
Oh and one more for interest: Cultivate some cupriavidus matallidurans bacteria in a petri dish. Add to Gold chloride and watch them digest everything and poop out 24k Gold nuggets

Actually this is true - really.

[Edited on 1-11-2012 by CHRIS25]

plante1999 - 1-11-2012 at 14:48

Quote: Originally posted by Fossil

CaO from roasting limestone

Good luck!

I think I covered that one

. I could make a list if you are interested. I have a large list in my things, most of them which I tried but I didn't report it because it would take a lot of time to write them all.

[Edited on 1-11-2012 by plante1999]

Fossil - 1-11-2012 at 16:10

That would be really cool to see.

I have noticed that you are really interested in synthesizing chemicals from natural sources. I've never tried myself, but hope to in the near future.

ElizabethGreene - 1-11-2012 at 18:28

Compost or fertile soil can be leached for Nitrates, mostly potassium nitrate.

Clean dry wood that's been heated until it stops outgassing is carbon, and condense the gas for methanol.

Fresh Wood Ash can be leached for a variety of sodium and potassium compounds. "soda ash, pot ash"

Rendered animal fats mixed with soda ash saponifies to soap, always handy in the lab.

Sodium Hydroxide mixed with methanol makes (a very nasty substance whose name I can't recall) and that with rendered animal or vegetable fats will yield biodiesel and glycerine.

Distill pine sap for pinene and turpentine.

Yeast in honey or fruit juice creates dilute alcohols.
Agitate or bubble air through the fermented solution to generate acetic acid.

As you said, Limestone (or seashells) can be heated to make Calcium Oxide. Added to water, becomes calcium Hydroxide

Sulfuric acid is available a number of ways.
The fumes from smelting ores with sulfur compounds are sulfur dioxide and can be get you sulfuric acid.
Elemental sulfur is another way to get there.
(and once you have sulfuric acid then the world's your oyster.)

If you fire a clay pot, cook some acid, smelt some metals and bang together a battery, then you have a pile of compounds available via electrolysis. I.e. Hydrogen + Oxygen (Water) Chlorine + Sodium (salt) and then Chlorine + Hydrogen = HCL. Potassium Chloride -> Potassium Chlorate. More powerful electrolysis gets you to Aluminum!

If you're really into this, then the book Caveman chemistry is great. The first bit, where the guy is talking in the voice of fire and all is a bit odd, but you can get past it then the book is brilliant. You can see many of the projects at http://cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/

Cheers,
Ellie

vmelkon - 2-11-2012 at 12:08

Quote: Originally posted by ElizabethGreene

Sodium Hydroxide mixed with methanol makes (a very nasty substance whose name I can't recall)

That would be sodium methoxide
NaOH + CH3OH -> CH3ONa + H2O

Fossil - 2-11-2012 at 17:07

That reaction would not be feasible.

2 Na + 2 CH3OH → 2 CH3ONa + H2

ElizabethGreene - 2-11-2012 at 18:03

Sodium Methoxide, spot on. "Very Nasty" is described quite well by Wickerpedia. "Sodium methoxide in methanol is a liquid that kills human nerve cells before any pain can be felt." [Citation Needed]

Mailinmypocket - 2-11-2012 at 18:14

Quote: Originally posted by ElizabethGreene

Sodium Methoxide, spot on. "Very Nasty" is described quite well by Wickerpedia. "Sodium methoxide in methanol is a liquid that kills human nerve cells before any pain can be felt." [Citation Needed]

Well... WikiPEDIA says lots of things, I have gotten some on my skin, rinsed it off, without horrific consequences. HF(aq) is far worse.

vmelkon - 6-11-2012 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by Fossil

That reaction would not be feasible.

2 Na + 2 CH3OH → 2 CH3ONa + H2

You mean between NaOH and CH3OH? I asked about that on another forum and they said that it occurs at a certain extent. It should actually be a 2 way arrow since sodium methoxide reacts with H2O.

ElizabethGreene - 6-11-2012 at 07:47

Inspired by another thread:

Crude Tannic acid can be leached from hardwoods, bark, or acorns.

SM2 - 6-11-2012 at 08:04

I think in our competitive ("green") chemical industry, the feedstock is biomass. That, and a semi engineered bacteria (not necessarily e coli). Oh, and the sophisticated hardware.

Maybe one day we'll be like some race a few thousand years from now, who just transmute their matter.

trip96 - 6-11-2012 at 16:43

Hey guys, let me know what you think about this.

I want to make my own activated charcoal (carbon).

Here is my method and observations. I plan on making this more scientific the next time, and taking pics ect. But, exploring and having fun always comes first. So here is what I did.

1. Used pine pallets, or "skids"

2. axed them into small pieces. Anywhere from 1 to 5 cm long, 1 to 10mm thick and 0.1 to 3 cm in width. So we're talking pretty small pieces.

3. Put the small wood pieces into a small ceramic container with a lid. I used a container that looks like a soup bowl. It would hold about 500mL of volume. I used three of these containers.

4. I put the ceramic containers with lids full of wood pieces into my wood burning stove (right into the fire and embers). Let the ceramic full of wood pieces bake for anywhere between 1 hour and 3 hours.

5. I noticed outgassing which was flammable (methanol vapor?) coming out of the lid seem.

6. After 45 min or so the outgassing would stop.

7. Brought container out and I had wonderful charcoal. Not the most exciting post on sci madness I know but I was happy I didn't open a pot of ash.

MY Thoughts on Activating Charcoal.

--- The goal is to make tiny pits and fissures in the charcoal for mechanical filtering. Please correct me if this is wrong ------

1. I bathed the charcoal pieces in ~25% sulfuric acid (battery type) for 20 minutes and then washed it then put it back into the stove wet.
2. My idea was to wash away a lot of the acid, but not necessarily all of it.
3. I """think""" the acid dissolves all the other stuff that isn't pure carbon, thus leaving behind little holes or pits.
4. The carbon coming out was different looking. It did look like it had been changed but again I didn't take before and after pictures.

NOW what I want to do and What I AM ASKING YOU!

1. Queens University published this paper, top of search results

https://www.google.ca/search?q=activated+carbon+nacl&rlz...

They used NaCl instead of CaCl in preparing activated carbon.

Here is my question.

How does the salt method create fissures and pits in the carbon? in simple terms please as I am a complete amateur.
There results suggest that a 50% solution of NaCl was decent in creating a carbon that at least was comparable to the activated carbon made through the CaCl method. I would like to use this NaCl method. Can we improve it?

Finally, by leaving the carbon wet as I put it through a second "baking" would this help create the pits and fissures we need to activate the carbon? The best activated carbon is supposedly created by burning the carbon in a steam atmosphere between 600 and 1200 degrees. Would leaving the carbon wet provide a temporary steam atmosphere and the fire surely burns well over 800 degrees.

Let me know what you all think!!

phlogiston - 7-11-2012 at 03:50

Cysteine, a sulfur-containing amino acid, from eggs or from hair
Then Iisolate elemental sulfur from the amino acid.

Actually, you can isolate many amino acids from natural sources. Often they have been named after the source they were first isolated from or in which they are abundant:

serine < Latin sēricum, 'silk', first obtained from silk protein
sarcosine < Greek σάρξ (sárx), 'flesh'
citrulline < Latin citrullus, 'watermelon', first isolated from watermelons
tyrosine < Greek τῡρός (tȳrós), 'cheese', easily obtained from cheese
taurine < Latin taurus, 'bull', first obtained from ox bile
ornithine < Greek ὄρνις (ornīs), 'bird', isolated from bird urine

bbartlog - 7-11-2012 at 04:32

Cysteine is also found in duck feathers. I have a large quantity of them (I raise several hundred ducks a year for meat) and have been meaning to try an acid hydrolysis of the feathers, but time is scarce... I'm curious though how you would obtain the elemental sulfur from the amino acid.

ElizabethGreene - 7-11-2012 at 05:10

@bbartlog - If you incinerate the feathers could you recover the sulfur from the ash? I.e. adding the ash to water, agitate, filter, dry?

[Edit]Answering my own question, Sulfur is "practically insoluble" in H₂0. That's a no then.

You'd get some other pot ash compounds tho.

Follow-up question: How do you separate pot ash compounds? ;D

[Edited on 7-11-2012 by ElizabethGreene]

tetrahedron - 7-11-2012 at 05:18

how about reducing gypsum with carbon to get CaS etc? wouldn't that be an easier way to sulfur than proteins?

vmelkon - 8-11-2012 at 13:48

Yes, if you can make CaS, that's good.
I think it hydrolyses with water, generating H2S.
If you mix H2S gas and some SO2, add a little water as a catalyst, it generates a lot of sulfur.

bbartlog - 8-11-2012 at 16:30

Quote: Originally posted by ElizabethGreene

If you incinerate the feathers could you recover the sulfur from the ash?

Any fullblown incineration will send all your sulfur up the flue as SO2 or SO3 (heck, even sulfur proper will volatilize at the temperatures in an ordinary fire). So, no. I know that SO2 and H2S can be converted to elemental sulfur via industrial processes, but I'm not at all sure how one would go about such a thing in an amateur setting.

vmelkon - 9-11-2012 at 08:13

Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog

I know that SO2 and H2S can be converted to elemental sulfur via industrial processes, but I'm not at all sure how one would go about such a thing in an amateur setting.

These lab guys did it. Looks easy but from what I understand, H2S is extremely poisonous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCR1HAad4ww

Random - 11-11-2012 at 22:42

i already experimented with production of guiacol anc cresol from wood and yesterday was left with stinky mess that sticked to my fingers

i couldnt remove the smell from my fingers and i feel like im gonna throw up every minute....today i was setting up a fire..man im sick of this smell

vmelkon - 16-11-2012 at 06:56

For ammonia, one method is to burn artificial cloths fibers (such as nylon).
Burning it and putting a wet litmus paper near the gases make the litmus go blue.

If you burn natural fibers, all you get is H2O and CO2.

Of course, there are better methods to get ammonia.

Random - 17-11-2012 at 13:22

Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon

For ammonia, one method is to burn artificial cloths fibers (such as nylon).
Burning it and putting a wet litmus paper near the gases make the litmus go blue.

If you burn natural fibers, all you get is H2O and CO2.

Of course, there are better methods to get ammonia.

cheapest way is urea and ca(OH)2