killswitch - 4-9-2012 at 04:31
Since the title of my first version of this thread was boring and got no responses, I decided to use a different one. The other thread's replies (if
it gets any) could I guess be merged with this thread, or if it has none, it could be moved to detritus.
Nitrogen asphyxiation is proposed as a humane alternative to lethal injection, as the current blend of chemicals can result in paralysis and death but
not lack of consciousness (just imagine being in that position, and note that trained doctors can't administer it due to their Hippocratic oath,
leaving it to corrections officers, and you understand the concerns).
Meanwhile, simply forcing the condemned to breathe from a nitrogen cylinder would cause them to suffocate without any symptoms or discomfort, or at
least symptoms discernible by anyone other than scuba divers, fighter pilots, mountaineers, and the like.
This led me to thinking (just speculation and idle curiosity, mind you) about use of this mechanism in an extrajudicial context. The scenario I'm
envisioning would be asphyxiating someone by pumping nitrogen from a welding supply cylinder into a room. Preferably, this would be done while the
individual is asleep, but unlike with CO2, nitrogen doesn't cause unbearable headaches and shortness of breath that send the individual
stumbling out of the room in search of some Motrin.
And here's the content of the original post:
Nitrogen presents a unique hazard in the laboratory due to the insidious nature of nitrogen asphyxiation. If there is an open dewar in the room,
bending over and fumbling around under one's desk to pick up a dropped pencil could conceivably result in unconsciousness and death. Argon and helium
pose identical dangers but are more expensive and thus less common.
Nitrogen asphyxiation as a cause of death is usually obvious: a lab technician who carries a nitrogen dewar into an elevator (in violation of
universal safety procedure), a worker who wanders into a section of a peanut oil warehouse that has been blanketed in nitrogen to prevent spoilage,
etc. And of course, it would be a recognized occupational hazard at an air liquefaction plant, complete with posters on the break room wall, monthly
or even weekly safety training, etc.
But what if the body were moved, or the source of nitrogen removed and the body not discovered until the inert blanket has dissipated? Are there
forensic methods for determining nitrogen asphyxiation as cause of death, as opposed to, say, some other form of apnea?
I would assume that carbon dioxide levels in the blood would plummet, leading to hypocapnia. I'm speculating that a higher blood pH would retard
putrefaction somewhat, but wouldn't it accelerate autolysis by destabilizing cell membranes? And would that release compounds that would lower the pH
again? Also, are there mechanisms (bacterial, environmental, or autolytic) whereby carbon dioxide could be quickly reintroduced to the body? (Other
than diffusion, which would obviously not produce concentrations that approached anywhere near those naturally found in the bloodstream).
In short, what kind of indicators would give away nitrogen asphyxiation if the only evidence were the cadaver itself? And how quickly would the body
have to be discovered and autopsied to find those indicators?
SM2 - 4-9-2012 at 05:59
It's blunt, and if organ preservation/harvesting is within the protocol, N2 asphyxiation would not be so optimal, IMO. How about a standard dose of
propofol, and then an overdose on a short acting, rapidly metabolizing barb? If you want to minimize organ/system de-oxygenation. I find your topic
macabre.
ScienceSquirrel - 4-9-2012 at 07:30
I have worked with nitrogen a lot and it is nowhere near as hazardous as carbon dioxide or argon.
Unlike these heavier gases it does not form 'pools' in basements, etc.
Pouring even a large volume of liquid nitrogen on the floor of a lab is completely harmless as it immediately mixes with the air, air with 15% oxygen
in it is breathable for quite long periods and you will have plenty of time to open the doors and windows, a few minutes and everything will be back
to normal.
Open Dewars represent no hazard at all as the evaporating gas mixes with the air very fast.
A large amount of nitrogen in a small room with no way of getting out and you would be in trouble.
Nitrogen asphyxiation is quite rare and certainly less common than carbon dioxide asphyxiation which is a known hazard in coal mines, wells, etc.
SM2 - 4-9-2012 at 09:14
Yep, it is fun to play around with. I'd love to possibly build a very small liquid air generator utalizing some long metal fractionating columns, and
several small, nested compressors.
bahamuth - 4-9-2012 at 10:26
Well, it would leave all the traces of oxygen withdrawal....
Wiki actually has a good detailed desc. on how it would pan out, and I believe (though most doctors are just as stupid as laymen (forgive my ranting
but it is a well known stereotype that most MD's only do it for the money and aren't very interested in solving things)) that they would figure it out
quickly if a otherwise healthy individual just dropped dead for no apparent reason.
And been working with both nitrogen as liq. nitrogen, and carbon dioxide in the form of dry ice, nitrogen poses no real threat if not used extremly
stupid. CO2 on the other hand require alot less to potentially kill you.
We had this one time a couple of tons of dry ice in a ~6mX6m -40 degrees C. freezer room for storing (we had to have these amount since we were moving
all the ultra frozen samples in our faculty) and a couple of ignorant female engineers were rummaging through the dry ice'ed samples in that very
room, closed... They both became, in their own words, stupid and developed a headache and just barely made it out before loss of consciousness,
because they wanted some air for their headache, as it never struck them that the CO2 is a lethal gas.... Hehe, one could actually feel the sensation
of soda water on ones tongue and on the mucus membranes when I entered for a brief moment just to experience the "thick" atmosphere... and I imagined
I felt the rise of CO2 in my bloodstream and a loss of mental capabillities, but this may very well be what I expected to feel and thus felt it..
fledarmus - 4-9-2012 at 12:32
The difference between carbon dioxide and nitrogen in this sense is that carbon dioxide is actually toxic, while nitrogen is inert. To die from
nitrogen inhalation, you would have to breath essentially pure nitrogen, and you actually die because there isn't enough oxygen left in the atmosphere
to support life. To die from carbon dioxide inhalation, you only need to raise the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air by a few percent. You
will die in a sufficiently carbon dioxide-enriched atmosphere even if the concentration of oxygen is not reduced.
This is because carbon dioxide transport by the blood stream is sensitive to the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide dissolved
in the bloodstream lowers the pH of the blood and reduces its ability to carry oxygen - this is how the various tissues in the body get the hemoglobin
to release oxygen. This deoxygenated, slightly lower pH blood goes to the lungs, where normal liquid saturation processes release carbon dioxide. If
the air in the lungs is already enriched in carbon dioxide, less carbon dioxide will be released from the bloodstream, and the lower pH blood will be
less efficient at absorbing and transporting oxygen.
The real key to surviving in a submarine or other sealed chamber is not the addition of oxygen, it is the removal of carbon dioxide.
cyanureeves - 4-9-2012 at 14:50
we actually thought of killing my dog with nitrogen by making a box with a cut out and putting it over his head and pumping nitrogen from a welding
supply shop. i was told he would just fall asleep and never feel pain but it wasnt necessary because at the doctor visit the vet just shook his head
and went to grab the sodium pentobarbitol. death machinations seem heaven sent when pain and suffering is involved but either way it hurt me just the
same.i howled like the last wolf on planet earth.
bahamuth - 5-9-2012 at 17:03
I read some time ago, though I can't find it again. That an extensive experiment, human, with a breathing atmosphere of 50:50% CO2:O2.
IIRC the experiment gave inconclusive results, with half or so of the specimens panicking, and the other half going into a hallucinogenic state of
"living dead" or so I remember... Hope someone has read this also and might link it, very interesting stuff if you ask me.
But fledarmus is correct, nitrogen is not inherintly poisonous but CO2 is...
Cheaping out on a family members eutanasia by gassing is just wrong, even a sledgehammer to someones head is painless..., heavy doses of happy drugs
is the way to go, hopefully for all of us...
smaerd - 6-9-2012 at 05:14
So basically you've made two threads with leading excuses on how to disguise the fact that you want to kill someone with nitrogen gas when they're
asleep. That has got to be the creepiest shit I've read on this board and there have been a lot of creeps.
SM2 - 6-9-2012 at 05:24
smaerd,
it's almost as if the thread was custom made for Dr. Kevorkian!!!