Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Americas Drug War, Questions

edgeofacliff - 22-8-2012 at 22:25

First of all, I am not condoning the use/non use of drugs. I have made some observations over the years and have some questions.
About ten to twelve years ago the US Govt. began a campaign against Meth, Meth users, Meth cooks. At the time meth was being cooked, sold, and used coast to coast in the US. Meth dealers and cooks were being arrested at an alarming rate, and prisons were stuffed to capacity and beyond without putting a dent in the meth trade. It became obvious that arresting people was going to solve nothing. The govt then decided to cut off the ingredients needed to make meth.
During this time the Mexican cartels began making and selling a new form of meth called "shards". Up until then the Mexican meth was called "re-rock" and was not as good as the American made stuff, made from P2P (prope dope) or from red phosphorous/iodine. And meth was not quite so widely used until Americans found out how simple it is to make. So the manufacture and use spread across America like wildfire.
In steps the federal govt. They shut off supplies used by Americans to make meth and caused many meth cooks to go out of business. This is where the cartels step in and flood the country with "shards" thereby taking over the market. Many meth cooks tried to make their own shards to no avail. There were literally hundreds of recipes to make shards, none of them worked. Many people refer to shards as "cop dope" as if the police were behind the manufacture and sales. The fact is the police in the USA have never busted a lab making shards. Never.
So, here is my question; How is it that a country like Mexico, a third world country, can keep the method for making shards a secret for all these years? From the amount of product involved there must be hundreds if not thousands of people involved. Is it possible the shards are coming from somewhere else? And if so, how are they keeping this secret for all these years? The fact is if the recipe got out, the meth addicts in the USA would make their own shards and the cartels would be out a big chunk of money.
That brings another question; Recently the DEA in America has started a campaign to rid the country of "spice"(synthetic marijuana that gets you high but does not show up on drug tests) and "bath salts". It would seem to the casual observer the US Govt is trying to wipe out any competition for the cartels. There is no campaign to rid the country of shards, and the billions of dollars being sent to Mexico has not busted one single shards lab. Also, even though 17 states have legalized medical marijuana, the federal govt still comes down hard on people in the US that grow marijuana, and they do nothing about the millions of acres of marijuana plants in Mexico. Does anybody besides me think this is a very suspicious situation?

hissingnoise - 23-8-2012 at 01:45

Yes!
Quote:
"Narcotics police are an enormous, corrupt international bureaucracy... and now fund a coterie of researchers who provide them with 'scientific support'... fanatics who distort the legitimate research of others... The anti-marijuana campaign is a cancerous tissue of lies, undermining law enforcement, aggravating the drug problem, depriving the sick of needed help, and suckering well-intentioned conservatives and countless frightened parents."
<i>- William F. Buckley</i>

cyanureeves - 23-8-2012 at 04:58

i think china plays a big role in mexican drugs manufacture.california,texas,new mexico and arizona could easily grow killer weed that could rival south of the border countries but south of the border countries are already up and going. hawaiian strains would drown columbian weed in a matter of a couple of years.growing up in a border town i never understood where these abolitionist thinking people come from but also i noticed that the young folk across the border were very prejudice against smokers. i always suspected government propaganda back when the mexican government warned it's people against organized crime before the government WAS organized crime. it seems like only countries that practice freedom have citizens who question why freedom does not apply to drug consumption.

Mildronate - 23-8-2012 at 08:15

Nowdays all drugs is from china.

Rogeryermaw - 23-8-2012 at 09:21

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
california,texas,new mexico and arizona could easily grow killer weed that could rival south of the border countries but south of the border countries are already up and going. hawaiian strains would drown columbian weed in a matter of a couple of years.


good luck with that. when i lived in hawaii, the growers that i knew said they are very protective of their strains and never give away so much as a seed.

edgeofacliff - 23-8-2012 at 19:26

I would also like to point out Mr. Obamas sudden reversal in that when elected he said marijuana prosecutions in states where medical marijuana was made legal would not be a priority for the federal govt. Since then he has reversed his stance and now advocates cracking down on these states.
The federal govt. in the USA does not do anything unless there is money involved, now even more so since the supreme court decided corporations were people and could influence politics all they want with huge sums of money.
So here I am, the casual observer, and it looks to me like the cartels got to Mr. Obama and paid him to change his tune. With marijuana legal to grow the cartels would lose tons of money so here we have a foreign criminal orginization influencing the US Govt to put US citizens in prison, so the foreign criminals can maintain control over American citizens. Want to talk about madness?

hissingnoise - 24-8-2012 at 00:59

Quote:
With marijuana legal to grow the cartels would lose tons of money so here we have a foreign criminal orginization influencing the US Govt to put US citizens in prison, so the foreign criminals can maintain control over American citizens.

OK! That's rhetoric for rhetoric's sake . . . Obama's second term will ring some major changes in this area!
That's the hope, anyway . . .

hyfalcon - 24-8-2012 at 02:46

Second term and we might as well burn the flag for him. He'll have us in the toilet with executive orders before he's sworn in the second time.

Rogeryermaw - 24-8-2012 at 11:31

please don't get another thread closed with political fighting. someday you will all realize that it does not matter what politician you like. they all work for the same company pushing to dominate the civilians.

edgeofacliff - 24-8-2012 at 20:05

On getting back to my original post, who is making the "shards"? And why is it the few really smart people that I know personally, as well as many I dont, cant seem to figure out the process? After ten years or so I am beginning to wonder if all the mass graves being discovered in Mexico are the actual cooks, but even still, somebody has to be teaching people to make the stuff, somebody must be supplying the chemicals. Then there is packaging, delivery, etc etc. There has to be thousands of people involved for the amount being sold in the USA every day. Anybody care to submit a technical report on the possiblities? There must be some well educated chemist somewhere that can crack the "shards" secret.

edgeofacliff - 24-8-2012 at 20:26

Please forgive the rhetoric, I seek anacoenosis from the members of this forum. To be able to participate with such a well educated group is an honor, and I place high value on all of your opinions.

Rogeryermaw - 24-8-2012 at 23:52

would it not be a simple matter of production on a large scale and recrystallization? perhaps more than once? on a small scale it crystallizes in circle patterns forming needles radiating from the center but most dope heads don't bother producing a large amount or recrystallizing for purity.

edgeofacliff - 3-9-2012 at 01:42

I have been told the shards comes across the border as a liquid, and is crystalized upon reaching its destination. But my question remains, who is making it and how are they keeping it a secret? The way the cartels operate it seems everything they do is on the news. Why not the shards?

Vargouille - 3-9-2012 at 03:59

D-methamphetamine is a liquid at room temperature. Once it reacts with HCl, it forms a crystalline solid. The advantage to having it in liquid form is that it can be put into jerry-cans and transported. An extraction with ether, ethanol, or chloroform will purify the freebase, and as the hydrochloride, it is relatively simple to recrystallize with water to form large crystals. To answer your question, the cartels can just use some random chemist, and purchase the precursors from China. The "method" isn't a secret; it's relatively simple organic and pharmacological chemistry.

Reference 1 (Note, the actual document would not work in a URL code)
Reference 2

IrC - 25-9-2012 at 10:27

http://www.theblaze.com/the-wire/15964804/chemists-education...

I Wonder how many innocent people are in jail. Or not innocent not.

Vargouille - 25-9-2012 at 15:02

http://news.yahoo.com/chemists-education-questioned-drug-lab...

Since the other link wasn't working, here is (I assume) the same article on Yahoo. The comment I would tentatively put is that she may not be a complete hack. There is something to be said for anecdotal proof (eg I added a solution of x controlled substance to a solution of y, and z occurred). Also, it is unclear what her alleged Master's was on; if it was a subject other than forensics, she would likely have had to cram up, as it were, on the specific chemistry of drugs. I say "alleged", simply because, as I gather from the source, computer failure has not been ruled out as a means of explaining why the Master's degree is missing from the files.

In short, remain scientific in your inquiry.

edgeofacliff - 8-1-2013 at 23:22

Somehow I am not getting my point across. The "shards" being sold in the USA may test positive as "meth" but after interviewing a large number of users I find that they all say the "shards" is not the same as the "meth" that was being produced in the USA. Also, some claim the "shards" makes them sick after a short run of two days. So what is it that makes that difference? Ingredients? Manufacturing process? I am not looking for a recipe, I would like to know if there is something that makes the "shards" even more dangerous than "meth" and without a laboratory at my disposal I have to ask. Im sure there are members of this forum that do have acess to testing equipment, have any of you ever checked this stuff out?

Vargouille - 9-1-2013 at 02:08

There are any number of possible contaminants in any manufacturing procedure that could cause harm in the intended recipients, especially if the procedure is done in a clandestine manner. Byproducts from the reaction used, impurities from previous manufacturing, intentional dilutions of products with compounds with their own possible contaminants, what have you. Somehow I have the feeling that the kind of people here with access to the machines that could accurately analyze a mixture such as that are not the same kind of people who would have access to the "shards". Narrowing it down is difficult because not only is "sick" a very vague term that does little to help indicate symptoms, but also because people react differently to different compounds.

learningChem - 9-1-2013 at 12:25

edgeofacliff ,

Rest assured that the criminals of the DEA and other factions of the US government have wasted millions analyizing meth samples. You should call them.