Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Mixing HMTD with urea nitrate or ammonium nitrate

Mixing HMTD with urea nitrate or ammonium nitrate

Practicaler - 31-5-2012 at 23:02

Guys i know this topic might be looking unappropiate . Guys i know mixing HMTD with urea nitrate or ammonium nitrate is a deadly wish and i am not going to mix them. I want to know that how does people mix HMTD with urea nitrate or ammonium nitrate . Do they use any solvent for mixing them or they use to mix it in water and then let it to evaporate or they mix the dry powdered urea nitrate with HMTD .

VladimirLem - 1-6-2012 at 06:21

made my day

franklyn - 1-6-2012 at 14:25

The preferred embodiment is to introduce HMTD inside of an aluminum tube
lined with polyethylene film and topped with a pyrotechnic priming charge.
This then can be placed into a booster charge to set off the urea nitrate.

________________________________

Moderator place this into Detritus please.

.

Practicaler - 1-6-2012 at 20:40

I am not talking how to set urea nitrate i am asking that how can we mix ammonium or urea nitrate with HMTD

TheMessenger - 1-6-2012 at 23:11

Blend the AN with 2% lampblack or charcoal beforehand. Put in a paper cup. Just toss the HMTD on top of the AN... Attach cup to a long stick and shake. Works fine...

The charcoal tells you if it's fully mixed or not. If it's not fully mixed it is more hazardous. Good stuff... 5000+m/s and a good 1+ RE IMO. Use like 83/17 AN/HMTD oxygen balanced... Needs a lot of flash(5g+ Confined Flash) or a cap. It's only like 1/3rd less shock sensitive than HMTD even when the AN is blended extremely fine to prevent friction.

HMTD has very low reactivity to aluminum. Weeks in contact at room temperature and no change in aluminum or HMTD. Inspected clean shiny aluminum with microscope.

[Edited on 2-6-2012 by TheMessenger]

Practicaler - 2-6-2012 at 02:57

Thanks the messenger I think 50 : 50 ammonium nitrate with HMTD is flame sensitive and doesnt need a blasting cap and it can be detonated by flame.

Ral123 - 2-6-2012 at 03:04

I should've figured that guys who make such dump mixtures wouldn't care anyway about how fine are the particles and how well are mixed.

Vikascoder - 2-6-2012 at 06:06

I think the finer the particles the more effective it will works . When you are making 50:50 mixtures extreme care should be taken because it can explode

Ral123 - 2-6-2012 at 07:14

No need for extreme care. You are either prepared to die or not. I would mix them only if it's like that I'm in prison and it's the only way to break open my cell. And from MEKP, AP, HMTD-HMTD is the most sensitive and worst fuel and generally comes in bigger crystals.

[Edited on 2-6-2012 by Ral123]

Vikascoder - 2-6-2012 at 08:04

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

No need for extreme care. You are either prepared to die or not. I would mix them only if it's like that I'm in prison and it's the only way to break open my cell. And from MEKP, AP, HMTD-HMTD is the most sensitive and worst fuel and generally comes in bigger crystals.[Edited on 2-6-2012 by Ral123]

nice joke ral123 but HMTD is generally powder.

Ral123 - 2-6-2012 at 09:37

Needles, crystals, I dont know what, it takes more time then ap and I'm pretty sure it'll be with bigger particle size then my fast low tempreture synth of ap.

Vikascoder - 2-6-2012 at 09:41

ral123 i have made HMTD lots of time and i always get extremely fine powder. by the way in jail you wont be having access to all these chemicals to make bombs there

CrEaTiVePyroScience - 2-6-2012 at 12:31

@Vikascoder I wouldn't say that, if your in a medium or low secure prison you can actually make explosives.

SM2 - 4-6-2012 at 06:02

Anyway, dry HMTD, contacted by flame, spits up a flame 10' high. Just shy of explodes. So I don't see why admixture w/ something much less sensitive would make a positive difference here. The only time I have gotten HMTD to go off on it's own, was to slowly heat/dehydrate it. Once you exclude every last molecule of water in there, it can go off high velocity through simple application of additional heat. Scarey shit. I'd never mess around w/ explosives ever again.

hissingnoise - 4-6-2012 at 06:57

HMTD normally deflagrates by simple ignition!
Heating on a plate will cause it to detonate ─ on slow heating, though, it may simply decompose . . .

Vikascoder - 4-6-2012 at 07:59

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

HMTD normally deflagrates by simple ignition!
Heating on a plate will cause it to detonate ─ on slow heating, though, it may simply decompose . . .

i heated my HMTD on my heating plate then it just deflagrated with a puff sound . My HMTD only detonates with shock . Is there any possible way to detonate it in open without providing shock.

VladimirLem - 4-6-2012 at 08:28

Quote: Originally posted by Fennel Ass Ih Tone

Anyway, dry HMTD, contacted by flame, spits up a flame 10' high. Just shy of explodes. So I don't see why admixture w/ something much less sensitive would make a positive difference here.

i had 7g of that Mixture (~75/25 - AN/HMTD)...put it into a hole in the ground with normal fuse and that worked pretty well...shit was loud as hell and dirt flyin everywhere

Vikascoder - 6-6-2012 at 09:20

Vladimirlem how did you mixed HMTD with ammonium nitrate

quicksilver - 6-6-2012 at 15:06

Gentlemen:
I don't see any chemistry or physics discussed here. An Energetic Peroxide mixed with many nitrates will yield a reaction from flame. Yet what is taking place is a "thinning" of the energetic material. In order to learn understand water-gel component, the peroxide is inappropriate. Water-gels (an INDUSTRIAL water-gel) are generally a slow "shoving" design, that are sealed and initiated by explosive train dynamics. There are complexities therein as (water-gels) are often made from de-milled energetics and the volume of water is formulated to increase density.
The warning re: peroxides is appropriate. They do not belong DRY industrial / potential shock agenda. Mixing an energetic peroxide with a dry nitrate is a prescription for a problem (friction) and adds nothing to the energy yield.

IF there IS a source material of mix nitrate, etc - it should always be quoted here, so that the concept may be examined in full light of detail and application.

[Edited on 6-6-2012 by quicksilver]

VladimirLem - 7-6-2012 at 09:25

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder

Vladimirlem how did you mixed HMTD with ammonium nitrate

lol...lets say you want to mix sugar and sand....how do you make that?

caterpillar - 13-6-2012 at 00:04

Once I made similar mixture- TATP + AN. I told many times, that TATP is not something extremely dangerous (compared with another primaries, of course), but here I have to agree with majority. It was not the most clever experiment and I'll never do it again.

Vikascoder - 14-6-2012 at 20:38

@Caterpillar what was the ratio of T.A.T.P and AN and what results did you found after mixing them

caterpillar - 15-6-2012 at 18:16

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder

@Caterpillar what was the ratio of T.A.T.P and AN and what results did you found after mixing them

I do not remember now, it was in 1977. Something like 50:50. Does it matter? It exploded after ignition. It was the longest day in a year- June 20. Just after mixing I had no result (or, more precisely- result was that it didn't exploded during mixing). 20-30 gr, something like this.

badabooom - 15-8-2012 at 12:49

Normally a ratio of 90AN/10 AP remains sensitive enough to detonate with a AP blasting cap yet insensitive enough to be handled with reasonable safety. Note that I said reasonable safety, meaning handle with care and use your common sense. I'm not going to ramble on about safety, if you are willing enough to use sensitive energetics then you should be willing to read up on safety before you do anything.

Back to the point, I could never set that ratio off by just using flame or heat. It had to be set off using a small but powerful blasting cap.

Ral123 - 15-8-2012 at 19:42

How did you mix them and at what density? The ap/hmtd must be there as a fuel also, not only as sensitive component, may be if they wouldn't be well mixed it's better to add a little fuel also.

badabooom - 16-8-2012 at 00:47

There is no need to add fuel to the mixture. A method that could be used with reasonable safety and effectiveness is to firstly add about 1 third the weight of AN to a paper bag then 1/6 of the total weight AP, then inflate the bag but try not to use your breath as this contains a lot of moisture. GENTLY but firmly shake the bag from side to side for a min or two then add each component in their respective portion until everything is mixed properly. It normally takes around 5-10 min for a batch < 100g.

Going over 100g is not recommended as this means you have to work with large amounts of pure and dry AP/HMTD. Hope this helps your mixing dilemma that you go on about so much.

Ral123 - 16-8-2012 at 09:18

If the components won't be mixed at almost molecular level, then forget about the ap/hmtd acting like fuel and increasing the velocity. The bad method gives a chance to static electricity accident. If I mix, I'd add 2-3% of fuel to the AN.

badabooom - 16-8-2012 at 13:05

I said nothing about increasing the velocity of the mixture. The purpose of mixing the AP and AN is merely to get more bang for the buck and to be able to have a cap sensitive booster for something like ANFO. In fact mixing the two will cause a sharp drop in the V.O.D from the ~5000 m.s of AP, but it still allows for a good earth moving explosive.

And static will not be an issue if its mixed in the PAPER bag, its when plastic is used that it becomes a concern, although i have never ever been able to set AP off with static even intentionally with 20KV. Only when the arc was directed across AP with 40Kv and in a constant arc was I able to set it off, in which case it no longer classifies as static electricity.

What i gave was some advice out of experience, use it/don't use it.

Ral123 - 16-8-2012 at 19:52

I just don't see how 5000+m/s explosive would reduce the vel. of 3500-anfo. It would add a bit velocity but the big advantage is the increased sensitivity witch should allow much better densities.

badabooom - 17-8-2012 at 02:15

you have it the other way around, the AN reduces the vod of the AP, and indeed the AP contributes a little so that the velocity would increase by a very tiny amount. The velocity increase is perportional to the % of AP in the mix. Its all semantics the way you look at it, is the glass half empty or half full...

[Edited on 17-8-2012 by badabooom]

Black Dove - 22-6-2013 at 13:07

I was wondering why mixing HMTD & AN is dangerous? Is it because of friction? I always use powdered AN. I am trying to find substitute materials I can mix into the AN other than AL. I have heard that Magnesium powdered will produce a stronger and brighter detonation! I use HMTD for my detonators and also as most of my HE fillers but Im looking for a more stable mix. Im going to try and make some RDX.

caterpillar - 22-6-2013 at 14:35

If you have HMTD, TATP or another primer, it is much more dangerous than any common explosive like TNT, RDX, PETN or even NG. You must always wait for an unexpected explosion. If one cap with 1 gr of HMTD goes off, the worst case scenario is losing one (may be two) fingers. That's all. But when you mix HMTD with AN, resulting mixture will have sensitivity like pure HMTD. This is why such action must be avoided. Sensitive explosives must not be prepared (stored) in large quantities. If you want to make AN more sensitive (more powerful) mix it with didnitrotoluene, di-trinitronaphtalene or ammonium picrate. I heard, that magnesium reacts with trace amounts of nitric acid, which always presents in AN. This reaction goes with self-acceleration. Therefore. contact between AN and Mg must be excluded.

[Edited on 22-6-2013 by caterpillar]

AndersHoveland - 22-6-2013 at 15:28

I think there has been a similar discussion in this forum before, about potential advantages of combining acetone peroxide with AN.
I believe the general consensus was that, despite an ideal OB ratio, such a composition did not really offer advantages that would justify itself.
And furthermore, the issue of chemical compatibility was raised, because AN is acidic, and organic peroxides are prone to hydrolysis in storage if the pH is not neutral.

[Edited on 22-6-2013 by AndersHoveland]

papaya - 23-6-2013 at 02:38

Quote: Originally posted by Black Dove

I am trying to find substitute materials I can mix into the AN other than AL.

Melt your AN with urotropine 91/9 % ratio then powder it when cools down, I've heard a very powerful mixture is obtained, but also hygroscopic.

Fantasma4500 - 23-6-2013 at 08:19

well of what i know theres usually being mixed in a few percentages of water when APAN is mixed, and as AP is very similar if not the most absolutely similar compound to HMTD then the same procedure could be used..

i dont think you let it dry out, i think you keep it mushy, as peroxides generally doesnt care about moisture really, so that shouldnt be much of a problem but you might wanna have a 1:1 booster for it also..

1:1 can however go bang without anything else but a flame, but its pretty weak

lets not get this thread closed, as what happened with the other thread that was somehow turned onto APAN (was i the one who did that??? :S)

as ive seen stated mixing in a somewhat inert secondary with a primary would just decrease the sensitivity of the primary, which is the real threat youre handling, so its a way of making the primary safer, and getting the AN up on a useful sensitivity

anyways why not just ANSU, Sugar Dynamon, AN:Sugar 85:15 by weight..?
more powerful than ANFO, and more sensitive (dont take AN mixtures as being actually sensitive, doubtfully you can set it off with a hammer)

Ral123 - 23-6-2013 at 08:47

AP and HMTD are quite different. HMTD is chmically very unstable. AP is physically very unstable(big crystals).

Fantasma4500 - 23-6-2013 at 14:49

hm, yes i read that you suppose the crystals are relatively larger due to the longer chemical reaction time, in which i must say is a pretty neat observation, i would most likely have missed that hah..

but didnt know they were having physical - chemical differences as what you say, this might explain why HMTD once went bang (50g?) when it was set to chill in a fridge for 2 days (dont know what went through the guys mind.. 2 days.. or was it even more?)
this is just a rumor tho, but its likely as it was from a guy i know wasnt just throwing random lines up..

question is..
wouldnt you be able to dissolve it in something, and thereafter recrystallize it..?

or perhaps dump the solution containing the primary onto the AN, creating a slurry with very little liquid in, ensuring that the ammonal would still be decently easy to set off, possibly if using flammable solvent also making a nice and evenly spread out thermobaric bang?

killswitch - 25-6-2013 at 19:25

Don't mess around with HMTD. In terms of friction sensitivity, the only things worse are Armstrongs (red phosphorus+potassium chlorate) and death mix (magnesium+sulfur+potassium bromate+ammonium nitrate).

TATP can be desensitized somewhat by dissolving in acetone (after the bicarb wash) and quickly evaporating the solvent for tiny, uniform crystals. Of course, these only last a day or so before sublimating, rather than the weeks of larger TATP crystals.

Note that if you do not recrystallize your TATP from acetone, acid remains trapped in the crystals and their sensitivity is very high.

AndersHoveland - 26-6-2013 at 09:59

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch

Note that if you do not recrystallize your TATP from acetone, acid remains trapped in the crystals and their sensitivity is very high.

Are you sure it is sensitivity that becomes high?
The stability is reduced if it contaminated with acid. "stability" in this case is chemical stability in storage. Perhaps you were confused and thought this meant it became more sensitive.

If HMTD is not neutralized, it tends to degrade after several weeks in storage. I think TATP also tends to become less chemically stable in storage if there is much acid present.

With TATP, the more it is crystallized, the more sensitive it tends to be.

[Edited on 26-6-2013 by AndersHoveland]

Ral123 - 26-6-2013 at 11:06

Oh wait, AP can be recrystalized, I thought I need some fancy solvent. My AP, washed with only distilled water may turn out very stable(if I find something from where I left it to test for storage stability)
For HMTD I suspect it's most reliable impact sensitive thing from the readily made. The other mixtures are very dependent on particle size.

franklyn - 26-6-2013 at 20:28

I have not done this but those who live for risk should
find this entertaining. Don't be selfish , post your results.
I'm intersted how this compares to vaseline chlorate mixture.

23 % of TATP by weight with NaClO3 is oxygen balanced.

C9H18O6 + 7 NaClO3 => 7 NaCl + 9 CO2 + 9 H2O

or for faster velocity.

( 1/3 ) 34 % of TATP by weight with NaClO3

C9H18O6 + 4 NaClO3 => 4 NaCl + 9 CO + 9 H2O

A question of whether these two can be co-crystallized
is worth investigating.

100 grams NaClO3 dissolves in 100 grams of water at 20 ºC

31 grams NaClO3 dissolves in 100 grams of 50/50 water and methanol
( see attached chart below for pure organic solvents )

It seems a possible approach would be to add a saturated water
solution of NaClO3 to a saturated acetone solution of TATP and
let it settle out , provided it doesn't partition into layers.

Say 1 gram TATP in 6 grams Acetone
and 2 grams NaClO3 in 4 grams H2O

______________________________________

51 grams NaClO4 dissolves in 100 grams Acetone at 25 ºC
51 grams NaClO4 dissolves in 100 grams Methanol at 25 ºC

Perhaps a saturated Acetone solution of TATP can be added to
a saturated Acetone solution of NaClO4 and allowed to settle out.

37.6 %
C9H18O6 + 3 NaClO4 => 3 NaCl + 9 CO + 9 H2O

37 % is approximately 10 parts TATP to 17 parts perchlorate by weight.

______________________________________

Methylene Chloride should solvate about the same as Toluene shown below
Xylene should work well too.

- continued from immediately above here.

franklyn - 27-6-2013 at 20:32

Since H2O2 is decomposed by basic substances , compatible salts are near pH
neutral or acid. The low pH however promotes reaction with other materials in
solution, dissolving Cu, Ag, Hg.
An interesting exception is the ClO3- ion which neutral or alkaline is not reactive.
ClO4- ion is not reactive at any pH and it is used in Mg(ClO4)2 as a drying agent
when concentrating H2O2.
Interaction with organic peroxides is the same.

.

madscientist - 1-7-2013 at 02:53

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland

Are you sure it is sensitivity that becomes high?
The stability is reduced if it contaminated with acid. "stability" in this case is chemical stability in storage. Perhaps you were confused and thought this meant it became more sensitive.

A lower barrier to decomposition should not just affect shelf life, but sensitivity as well. The sensitivity of explosives is a manifestation of the kinetic barriers to degradation. Physical impact applies energy to the system. But if you want to juggle water balloons bulging with unwashed nitroglycerine, be my guest. Please just do it somewhere desolate and lonely.

[Edited on 1-7-2013 by madscientist]

franklyn - 15-7-2013 at 07:30

TATP + CHCL3 + Al

Given tha extraordinary solubility of TATP in Chloroform , practically
11 parts TATP to 10 parts Chloroform by weight , at room temperature ,
adding Aluminum is a breeze , no dangerous mechanical mixing of dry
powders. A near stoichiometric mixture then is :

TATP 33 , CHCL3 30 , Al 22

It should be readily detonable and quite powerful.

Warning
Evaporation of Chloroform which occurs continuously will deposit a
film of TATP making this susceptable to unintentional initiation from
friction. This should not be kept for longer than the time to prepare
it to be set off where it is mixed and should not be carried.

.

SURT Tech. - 15-7-2013 at 10:08

Chloroform and aluminum powder also form explosive mixtures. The TATP will act as dispersed initiator.

papaya - 15-7-2013 at 10:57

What if peroxide forms phosgene with chloroform (hypothetically) ?

Solomon - 15-7-2013 at 12:57

I am sure that chloroform explosives are both dangerous and impractical, but what would the detonation velocity of a chloroform - aluminum mixture be? For that matter, what would a safe yet effective chloroform/aluminum ratio be? Exactly how stable would this compound be (1-absolutely 10 - worse than nitroglycerin and guaranteed spontaneous ignition)? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that a TATP (or any other explosive) initiator would be necessary.