Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Novel compounds ideas , the thread

plante1999 - 21-2-2012 at 17:37

Edit: With the commentary of Ander I decided to dedicate this thread to novel compounds ideas, not in the objective to make energetics compounds, but simply for general novel compounds ideas.

I thinked to something today, If I mix Tcca (Trichloroisocyanuric acid,C3Cl3N3O3) with silver chlorate (AgClO3) in a water solution (making AgCl) would it make something similar to this (I'm not very good in organic chemistry):





Thanks!!

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]

AndersHoveland - 21-2-2012 at 17:57

I am a hypocrite for telling you this, but I think there should be a special thread in the Energetics section devoted to whacky, half-baked ideas. We all [well, most of us] like hearing members theoretical proposals for new compounds, but no need for a new thread for each idea.

I am fairly sure your compound could not be made. It would be too oxidizing and unstable. A chlorate group cannot just be stuck onto a nitrogen atom, sorry!

Even if your compound did exist (which it would not), it would be virtually touch sensitive. Read about ethyl perchlorate. Your compound would be even more sensitive, because chlorate is more sensitive than perchlorate, and you are putting it on an acidic/electron-withdrawing structure to begin with.

I am not exactly sure what the reaction would be. If silver chlorate does not oxidize the TCCA, then it is quite possible some of the silver ions would get oxidized to Ag(I,III) oxide.
You can see the sixteenth post down, if you want, to get an idea about the specifics of these type of chemistry:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14490

Quote:

If nitrate of silver is added to cyanurate of potassa, a white precipitate is obtained, which consists of 1 atom of cyanuric acid combined with 2 of oxide of silver and 1 water
"Selected Primers", William Thomas Brande, (1867)


The TCCA, if it reacts, is probably going to hydrolyse into cyanuric acid and hypochlorous acid in solution.

Cyanuric acid can be oxidized to CO2 and N2 by excess hypochlorite. "Oxidation of Cyanuric Acid with Hypochlorite", John A. Wojtowicz

Also your compound would be considered an acid anhydride of chloric acid and cyanuric acid, so it would probably hydrolyse in water.

So I have done some decent research and thinking. I think this post is the most consideration your idea is going to get.

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]

plante1999 - 21-2-2012 at 18:43

I edited the title and aded a new part in the text.

Well I know (if it exist) it would be realy oxidizing and probably unstable, but it was just an idea for an novel compound... Probably I should try to think to a novel titanium compound, I am be better in titanium chemistry than organic chemistry...

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]

AndersHoveland - 21-2-2012 at 23:23

I would not say you are "bad" at chemistry. It is just that these sorts of things are actually very complex. Keep up the creativity!

plante1999 - 22-2-2012 at 04:49

In fact, I can find a way to synthesis almost all normal inorganic compound exemple: Thiosulfate , Chloride.... Without use of any documentation, For exemple if you say me to make CuCl I would be able without any help or If you say me to make Tetramine copper II sulfate from copper metal i will aslo be able. But I am not able to do organic chem without help/documentation. I think I made some interressing Titanium compound that I documented here on SM , I don't realy like organic chemistry but it seam that if I want to find a new compound it would be alot easier in Organic chemistry.

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]

kavu - 22-2-2012 at 07:04

I have noticed a quickly passing, though common stage in almost all chemistry hobbyist: the urge to do stuff without literature. Chemistry is not about being able to do stuff without literature, but rather using literature to help do clever new stuff that's not yet described. This does not involve memorization but rather the ability to see and understand trends in reactivity, properties and so on. Understading and trying to rationalize in both experimental and theoretical work is the key to success alongside with a bit of luck.

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by kavu]

GreenD - 22-2-2012 at 08:00

A sheet of nitrogen atoms - much like graphite!

plante1999 - 22-2-2012 at 09:03

It would be nice to see pictures of the novel compounds ideas. It will help to understand the idea. In fact I did not say that I do not want to use reference but simply that I do not need to check if it is a common inorganic synthesis , Generaly I want a reference for the synthesis I am planning.

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]

AndersHoveland - 22-2-2012 at 18:21

Quote: Originally posted by kavu  
I have noticed common stage in almost all chemistry hobbyist: the urge to do stuff without literature. Chemistry is not about being able to do stuff without literature,


The other extreme, of course, is would be the "armchair chemist" (me :D ).

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14031
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14005
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=17012&...

[Edited on 23-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]

Neil - 22-2-2012 at 18:22

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Quote: Originally posted by kavu  
I have noticed common stage in almost all chemistry hobbyist: the urge to do stuff without literature. Chemistry is not about being able to do stuff without literature,


The other extreme, of course, is would be the "armchair chemist" (me :D ).



Never thought I'd see the day :D

Panache - 27-2-2012 at 06:52

Quote: Originally posted by Neil  
Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Quote: Originally posted by kavu  
I have noticed common stage in almost all chemistry hobbyist: the urge to do stuff without literature. Chemistry is not about being able to do stuff without literature,


The other extreme, of course, is would be the "armchair chemist" (me :D ).



Never thought I'd see the day :D


Very sporting of you anders, i do believe you've come of age!

Too bloody right!

AJKOER - 25-6-2012 at 16:49

My speculation on mixing TCCA (Trichloroisocyanuric acid,C3Cl3N3O3) with silver chlorate (AgClO3) in a water solution is the hydrolysis of TCCA forming HOCl and Cyanuric acid. With time/light some HCl will form either from the disproportionation of the HOCl or it decomposition:

3 HOCl --> 2 HCl + HClO3

2 HOCl --> 2 HCl + O2

However, the presence of Cyanuric acid is said to inhibit this last reaction (see http://www.tps.com.au/pools/chlorine.htm)

Any HCl formed will react with HOCl to form Chlorine:

HCl + HOCl --> H2O + Cl2 (g)

Also, the HCl may react with the AgClO3 as follows:

HCl + AgClO3 --> AgCl (s) + HClO3

The AgClO3, being a strong oxidizer, may also, per Andershoveland, decompose the Cyanuric acid into N2 and CO2 forming more AgCl and O2.

If my speculation is correct, with time you should see more of the white AgCl, the pH should decline, and perhaps some gas release (O2 , Cl2, CO2 and/or N2).


[Edited on 26-6-2012 by AJKOER]