Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Volemitol heptanitrate

killswitch - 18-2-2012 at 15:54

Does anyone have any experience with this compound? All the sources I can find are hidden behind the "Pay $25 for one day of access to the PDF" wall of bullshit that seems purposefully designed to stifle amateurs.

Another obstacle: http://www.glycosyn.com/chemical-list/volemitol
This was the only source I could find. These people are charging $1,200 per GRAM! Unless the hydrogens have neutrons in their nuclei, that seems a little much.

Based on my limited knowledge, I'm guessing the compound will be just like MHN, only with a higher density and higher oxygen balance. However, I'm guessing that synthesizing it in any decent yield would be difficult as all hell, since you'd probably need 98% or better WFNA and fuming sulfuric of 40% or more oleum to dehydrate all seven hydroxyl groups and nitrate the molecule. The washed and purified product might even have a significant quantity of hexa and penta-nitrated compounds in it, so it might need to be run through a second mixed acid bath to remove the remaining hydroxyl groups.

Anyone have a clue where I could find polyol sugar substitutes like volemitol, mannitol, xylitol, erythritol, etc., at more reasonable prices? Is there an isomer of the 7-polyol that is more reasonably priced than volemitol?

Adas - 19-2-2012 at 04:44

I suggest you to make ETN instead, it is way easier and safer.

[Edited on 19-2-2012 by Adas]

quicksilver - 19-2-2012 at 07:03

Eurythritol is roughly 4-6 USD per pound, that's pretty damn inexpensive. As a basic element, sources are not published publicly on the Forum due to abject stupidity on the part of some individuals who would destroy that source. It has happened with such frequency that that and similar rules have been a standard with many Forums through out the years. A simple Google search will yield pages of results.

To find a patent you simply go to the US/UK/DE Patent office website. Patents are free to the public as they always have been. However....."trade secrets" can be excluded from the public knowledge if the patent is in force or if the patent has been renewed or owned by a governmental agency. It can also be excluded if it coincides with any issue that is a military agenda or deals with the security of the nation.

Volemitol is a Trihydric and Polyhydric Alcohol that is generally used in industry. However is NOT used in direct / specific human consumption as are sucrose substitutes. I decided to go a little further into this for you as I personally have some interest and couldn't find a CAS number. What I could find was that it had been used in making certain vanilla flavorings but is generally not sold as a pure entity to the public as many other solid alcohols are. I am not sure why.
There ARE some fantastic textbooks on solid alcohols and if you really had an interest, you may be able to find something scanned / free from the sugar industry. See the PDF below for some clues... :P

[Edited on 19-2-2012 by quicksilver]

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killswitch - 19-2-2012 at 09:10

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
Eurythritol is roughly 4-6 USD per pound, that's pretty damn inexpensive. As a basic element, sources are not published publicly on the Forum due to abject stupidity on the part of some individuals who would destroy that source. It has happened with such frequency that that and similar rules have been a standard with many Forums through out the years. A simple Google search will yield pages of results.

To find a patent you simply go to the US/UK/DE Patent office website. Patents are free to the public as they always have been. However....."trade secrets" can be excluded from the public knowledge if the patent is in force or if the patent has been renewed or owned by a governmental agency. It can also be excluded if it coincides with any issue that is a military agenda or deals with the security of the nation.

Volemitol is a Trihydric and Polyhydric Alcohol that is generally used in industry. However is NOT used in direct / specific human consumption as are sucrose substitutes. I decided to go a little further into this for you as I personally have some interest and couldn't find a CAS number. What I could find was that it had been used in making certain vanilla flavorings but is generally not sold as a pure entity to the public as many other solid alcohols are. I am not sure why.
There ARE some fantastic textbooks on solid alcohols and if you really had an interest, you may be able to find something scanned / free from the sugar industry. See the PDF below for some clues... :P

[Edited on 19-2-2012 by quicksilver]


Many thanks!

bfesser - 4-3-2012 at 18:42

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
All the sources I can find are hidden behind the "Pay $25 for one day of access to the PDF" wall of bullshit that seems purposefully designed to stifle amateurs.


There is a <em>"Wanted References and Needed Translations"</em> thread in the <strong>References</strong> sub-forum for this. U2U a moderator and they will deem whether you are worthy/qualified for access.

PHILOU Zrealone - 5-3-2012 at 09:21

I have made a decades long comparative study of compounds with regard to the density as a function of the molecular lenght.

Conclusions are that longer molecules in a single family type H-(CHX-)nH displays higher densities, better OB, lower shock sensitivities.

In the case of polyhydric alcohols (polyols) you get H-bondings that induce higher normalised density increase per C units than for the nitrate esters of the same compounds...

The density increase follows a logarithmic rule and so in a logarithmic graph of the density as a function of the number of C's you get straight lines...this implies that if you know the density increase for the first two members of the familly, you can extrapolate the density of the rest of the familly...
Example:
If the density difference between X-CH2-CH2-X ( aka H-(CHX-)2H) and CH3-X (aka H-(CHX)1H) is 0,2 g/ccm...
then it will be the same between X-CH2-CHX-CHX-CH2-X ( aka H-(CHX-)4H) and X-CH2-CH2-X ( aka H-(CHX-)2H)...
and the same between X-CH2-CHX-CHX-CHX-CHX-CHX-CHX-CH2-X ( aka H-(CHX-)8H) and X-CH2-CHX-CHX-CH2-X ( aka H-(CHX-)4H)

So every doubling of the lenght induces the same density increase...This is very interesting because detonation velocity of families of compounds also follows a linear dependance to the density.

So yes heptanheptol heptanitrate will be slightly denser than hexanhexol hexanitrate, and it will display a slightly higher VOD and a lower sensitivity. It will be harder to fully nitrate!

In my study I have searched for the possibility to grow known lenght of polyhydric alcohols...and a process exists via condensation of nitromethane with oses (sugars)...
It is the first step to go to higher homologous sugar!
HOCH2-CH=O + CH3-NO2 --> HOCH2-CHOH-CH2-NO2
HOCH2-CHOH-CH2-NO2 + NaOH (aq 10%) --> HOCH2-CHOH-CH=N(=O)-O-Na + H2O
2 HOCH2-CHOH-CH=N(=O)-O-Na + 2H2SO4 (aq 25% - dropwise) --> 2 HOCH2-CHOH-CH=O + N2O + 2 NaHSO4

So from
CH2=O --> HOCH2-CH=O (diose)
HOCH2-CH=O --> HOCH2-CHOH-CH=O (triose)
HOCH2-CHOH-CH=O --> HOCH2-CHOH-CHOH-CH=O (tetrose)
HOCH2-(CHOH)2-CH=O --> HOCH2-(CHOH)3-CH=O (pentose)
HOCH2-(CHOH)3-CH=O --> HOCH2-(CHOH)4-CH=O (hexose)
HOCH2-(CHOH)4-CH=O --> HOCH2-(CHOH)5-CH=O (heptose)
...
HOCH2-(CHOH)n-CH=O --> HOCH2-(CHOH)n+1-CH=O (n+1-ose)

Interesting to form oses but also after reduction polyols; so you could go from cheap glucose to a heptose which after reduction will give a heptan-heptol.

One can also think to monoaminated polyols like HOCH2-CHOH-CH2NH2 by ab initio reduction of the NO2 group instead of the carbonylic one C=O.

Stoechiometric ratio plays a role here and so ketons are also accessible via a polyol compound with a secundary nitro group this time:
HOCH2-CH=O + CH3-NO2 + O=CH-CH2-OH --> HOCH2-CHOH-CH(-NO2)-CHOH-CH2OH --> HOCH2-CHOH-C(=O)-CHOH-CH2OH --> HOCH2-CHOH-CHOH-CHOH-CH2OH

The reaction can be extended to bifunctional compounds like glyoxal
O=CH-CH=O + 2 CH3-NO2 --> O2N-CH2-CHOH-CHOH-CH2-NO2 --> O=CH-CHOH-CHOH-CH=O

Thus giving access to almost any wished lenght of polyol :)

I can also mention the special case of formol reacting with nitromethane in exces leading to O2N-CH2-CH2-CH2-NO2 and thus giving acces to O=CH-CH2-CH=O (propandial or malonaldehyde).

In summary it is a very important and interesting chemistry because it allows one to reach quite easily to polyols, to aldehyds, to ketons ... opening wide doors/gates to unexplored fields of energetic materials like nitramines, nitric esters, nitro-nitrate esters, ... :D


[Edited on 5-3-2012 by PHILOU Zrealone]

[Edited on 5-3-2012 by PHILOU Zrealone]

quicksilver - 5-3-2012 at 14:05

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  

Many thanks!


You're welcome.
Understand that there is nothing called a "secret patent" or black patent. Government patents (or patents that the governments use or have bought, etc) are often held at the "application" level until such time as the patent is no longer used in a secure appliance or military format. SO..... you MAY find somethings in applications that are not awarded full patent status. - The problem here is that it might often be mixed with junk or non-working (see non-functional) concepts.
I've said this before but it bears saying once again....get a program such as "CHEM-OFFICE" and test whether the written format would be achievable through the structural format printed in the application. Not all Application-level patents are available for public viewing.

This is achievable with chemistry but at a mechanical mixing level it may not be! Let's say we want to gelify a liquid fuel (through mechanical means) and we are told that Plamate and Naptholate (or micro-balloons, Cab-O-Sil, & on and on) will gel the fuel (such as unleaded gasoline). In such an instance we must apply some experimental level but gellification via non-mechanical means MAY be structural (such as polymer chemistry). Always look at patents with some level of skepticism. "Trade Secrets" are allowable to be kept from the public eye (the issue of Gulf Crown E oil as opposed to straight silicone oil, synthetic variants,etc). A patent that uses other patented materials within it may be more likely to be functional (even in Application form) than one that has any concept presented "out of the blue".