Sciencemadness Discussion Board - CuCl and nitrous oxide complex?

CuCl and nitrous oxide complex?

Adas - 22-1-2012 at 05:10

Hello SM,

I found this link: CuCl and AgCl-N2O complexes

I am asking, is this possible at normal conditions? I think the ClCuNNO would be an oxidizer + flame colorant in one substance. Any ideas?

unionised - 22-1-2012 at 06:02

There's probably a good reason why they are working at 12 to 40 Kelvin.

AirCowPeaCock - 22-1-2012 at 12:02

I bet above that temperature It will oxidize anything, just like fluorine. The partial pressure of the N2O would be very high. And since oxygen is more electronegitive than chlorine, it may oxidize the Cu to CuO and release Cl2 and N2 gas. But 12-40 K is pretty achievable with liquid helium and liquid nitrogen (Take the liquid nitrogen and cool it with liquid helium continuously to maintain to 12-40 K), and its surprisingly not too hard to get, or so Ive heard. I could be an interesting low temperature oxidizer/chlorinator. If you can, try it out? See what its good for.

unionised - 22-1-2012 at 12:19

Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock

I bet above that temperature It will oxidize anything, just like fluorine. The partial pressure of the N2O would be very high. And since oxygen is more electronegitive than chlorine, it may oxidize the Cu to CuO and release Cl2 and N2 gas. But 12-40 K is pretty achievable with liquid helium and liquid nitrogen (Take the liquid nitrogen and cool it with liquid helium continuously to maintain to 12-40 K), and its surprisingly not too hard to get, or so Ive heard. I could be an interesting low temperature oxidizer/chlorinator. If you can, try it out? See what its good for.

I doubt it oxidises things much I think it will just fall apart.
Release of Cl2 is implausible given the presence of Cu(I).
Nitogen would be frozen solid over that temperature range so liquid N2 isn't going to help a lot.
They explicitly say they use argon.
Liquid helium, is quite hard to get, and to work with. It's also not cheap. "See what its good for" probably nothing much.

AirCowPeaCock - 22-1-2012 at 12:33

Your right, about the N2. Cl2 release would not be impluasable, but with the formation of Cu(I)O instead of Cu(II)O--that was a mistake, I ment Cu2O not CuO. It probably falls apart above 40K, but N2O is a powerful oxidizer and free in such close proximity to the Cu(I)Cl it might oxidize a small amount (say 5% or less), making it not particularly useful, but still interesting.

unionised - 22-1-2012 at 13:40

There's Cu(I) present already. It would reduce any chlorine produced.
Also N2O isn't that fast an oxidiser (though it's powerful enough).
At low temperatures it's unlikely to do a lot.
After all, it won't do it at room temperature.

AirCowPeaCock - 22-1-2012 at 13:52

But if it comes from a crystal lattice inside inside Cu(I)Cl it will have millions upon millions of times more surface area, and it doesn't necessarily mean it breaks down at 40K just because they work with it at that temperature, i wouldn't be surprised if they were giving it a 20K leeway area--although that still doesn't make much difference. If you add a solid chunk of Al to water it wont make any noticeable reaction. But if you put atomized Al in water....I'm not saying it will, I'm saying it might--and you probably have more experience then i do, based on your 1885 posts.

Adas - 23-1-2012 at 08:39

And what about complex with NO2? It would be probably more stable, because NO2 is a radical. I am not able to try this because I can't generate NO2.

unionised - 23-1-2012 at 11:57

Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock

But if it comes from a crystal lattice inside inside Cu(I)Cl it will have millions upon millions of times more surface area, and it doesn't necessarily mean it breaks down at 40K just because they work with it at that temperature, i wouldn't be surprised if they were giving it a 20K leeway area--although that still doesn't make much difference. If you add a solid chunk of Al to water it wont make any noticeable reaction. But if you put atomized Al in water....I'm not saying it will, I'm saying it might--and you probably have more experience then i do, based on your 1885 posts.

At that temperature it's a solid.
At room temp it's a gas.
Which would you expect to react faster?

AirCowPeaCock - 24-1-2012 at 07:48

well, the lower temperature would have a negative effect, but the distance between the molecules would have a positive, effect. so there's probably one or more sweet spots. maybe just before it melts/sublimates and at very high temperatures. Then again many reactions will only have a significant reaction at higher temps, regardless of surface area and such. If one was to expose N2O to CuCl at room temp and high pressure and room temp, would if form a protective red Copper(I)oxide barrier?

unionised - 24-1-2012 at 12:59

In general:
Hot things react faster.
Well mixed things react faster.
Since gases mix well...
But, without doing the experiment it's impossible to say.

" If one was to expose N2O to CuCl at room temp and high pressure and room temp, would if form a protective red Copper(I)oxide barrier? "
I doubt it, but if anything I'd expect a mixture of CuCl2 CuO and N2 as products

AirCowPeaCock - 24-1-2012 at 13:17

Where would the Cl- go? it would have to donate its e- back to the Cu, forming Cl2 gas.