Maximization of a high-denisty ETN-based HE

Thank you for the prompt and informative response!

1: Cast ETN/Al: I'm honestly kinda fearful of this process. I've read up on other users' experiences with casting Al-doped ETN, and some have reported that the mix sometimes spontaneously detonated. Some reported that it happened just before it boiled (big surprise there, right?) and some reported that it detonated shortly after melting. A reasonable explanation that I found is that the Al flakes 'create local hot spots' in the molten ETN where the compound is more likely to decompose spontaneously. Still not quite sure, however.

2: PiB or PS/PiB: Great points.

3: ETN/NM: What are your thoughts on using a mixture of NM/Al to both preserve the thick consistency and OB the ETN?

4, 5, 6: You covered everything that I wanted to know. Excellent.

Hmmm...PGDN...great recommendation. Didn't think of that one You've got my mind going though. RFNA can easily be distilled and purified into WFNA. This can then be used to synthesize the ETN more efficiently than the nitrate salt method AND (more importantly) prepare other OB negative HE's like RDX, HMX and TNT. A few of these binary mixes can be cast, right? How exciting!

Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent

Quote: EGDN was added to commercial NG to prevent freezing since freezing NG sensitizes it. Jeez! I can't believe that old misconception is still around! Frozen nitro is quite difficult to initiate ─ the hazards of remelting nitro did, though, lead to many unfortunate accidents! P

Aha! I found this google book describing NG to actually be less sensitive than liquid NG, but then goes on to talk about crystal stress and the fact that it was people thawing NG with improper heat sources which caused most the trouble. I did not know that!

I believe you can use RFNA directly for the synthesis of ETN. However, my experience has shown that using less concentrated nitric acid is easier because the nitration bath doesn't thicken up as much. I have used KNO3 before to make ETN and the end result was a paste of K2SO4 and ETN!
My 68% HNO3 with lots of 93% H2SO4 does the trick just nicely and the end product is still thin enough to be magnetically stirred. I don't have my yields based on erythritol offhand, but they must have been OK because I repeated it many times. (This was years ago) Of course, using less concentrated nitric means more sulfuric, and more cost. But sulfuric is cheap for me at around $16 USD/half gallon.

Yes, WFNA (and possibly RFNA) can be used to synth higher-end energetics. I remember my first WFNA.

I'm not sure about HMX, but I know that TNT and RDX were used together in melt-cast fillers for fragmentation grenades. ETN is expected to be soluble in these mixtures but will contribute to increased overall sensitivity (owing to the fact that RDX and TNT are initially insensitive)

As for the ETN/NM/Al, I'm not sure that the amount of Al required will even change the consistency. It's pretty small. Remember that 1 mol ETN has .5 mol extra O2, and 1 mol Al needs 1.5 mol O2. That means for every 2 mol of ETN alone you'd need to add 3 mol Al. That's 604g ETN per 81g Al, and Al is nearly twice as dense. Adding NM (which is O-negative like Al) only decreases the need for Al overall. You can do the math to compare the heat of formation of the products of ETN/Al and ETN/NM and see which is more energetic. Be aware, however, that adding Al yields Al2O3 on decomposition - a solid. The NM may end up less energetic but may evolve more gaseous products and could be more "powerful."

Welcome to the horrible world of explosive prediction!

-DTM

DTN, thank you for the heads up on the ETN synth. What ratios did you use in the strong acid mix? Also, I'll research more into binary HE mixes and their separate, respective, characteristics. You've made some great points on the stoich analysis. The required mass of Al for OB would be pretty small. What's this about the 'horrible' world of explosive prediction? I'm really enjoying all of this Weird, right?

P, great suggestion. Upon researching the compound and its properties/synthesis, I'm kind of hesitant about its sensitivity - especially when it hasn't been washed and neutralized. I had the same fear with TATP, but after making it, handling it and storing it for short periods of time (with a great deal of care involved in all of that), I got over that fear. Do you think it'll turn out to be the same situation?

Let's kind of focus in on something, here. Say that this ETN mix was being used for a shaped charge. Do you think that a simple OB (powdered) ETN/Al mix do just as great of a job as a ETN/(NG, TNT, RDX, etc...)? I guess what I'm getting at here is this - is there really such a thing as overkill in this scenario? Would I even need to worry about making other HE's or plasticizing it in the first place?

Quote: Originally posted by MrRedox602

Let's kind of focus in on something, here. Say that this ETN mix was being used for a shaped charge. Do you think that a simple OB (powdered) ETN/Al mix do just as great of a job as a ETN/(NG, TNT, RDX, etc...)? I guess what I'm getting at here is this - is there really such a thing as overkill in this scenario? Would I even need to worry about making other HE's or plasticizing it in the first place?

'Something of an oxymoron there QS, but you're right ─ as always?
And it seems that quite a lot of new members don't seem to even know that the site contains a very well-stocked chemistry library!
So perhaps Polverone might consider giving this useful fact more prominence if a revamp is ever planned.

P

Realistically, the collection is positioned prior to login: it's tough to imagine anyone missing it. But perhaps, they do. On a similar subject, my concern is actually two-fold. If more reading were done it's possible that the essence of the questions would rise in quality and interest. Further, the "background" information would be included in the question ( Off-hand example: "On Davis's Tetrecene synthesis what level of agitation is required and would the yield benefit from slight alterations in temperature").
Would it (Library) make a difference if it were repositioned? I couldn't say, however I do know that in certain circumstances, the lack initiation knowledge has eventually lead to the foremost cause for injury in profession display pyrotechnics (static). In academic O Chem there are lab assistants, the instructor, or a TA to guide. In hobby chemistry one is most often alone so the demands are great.

The Forum has SO much material that some very tough-to-find questions have been researched and answered. Threshold levels of initiation for energetic peroxides are low enough so that static which could not be felt can initiate. Thus my opinion that the "Mother of Satan" is not only appropriately named, but simply too sensitive (& maintain too great a deliquescent nature) to be a reliable primary in any but the most maniacal self-destructive of purposes. Reading the USBoM background material on testing HMTD would certainly change the minds of most people thinking of energetic peroxides as utilitarian. There have been studies of the dimer and trimer of TATP in terms of sensitivity and shelf life. It was not considered seriously due to those demands.

Unfortunately many facets of this hobby are oxymoronic It becomes almost inescapable when writing.