Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Thermite Welding

4s2 - 9-4-2004 at 23:23

Sure everyone asks about how to make thermite etc, but has anyone done any in depth reaction testing?

I have heard that railroad rails used to be welded together with a simple thermite proccess. I want to try and work it with .25 inch plate steel on some general joints. I also want to use it for cutting.

Also is there a better way to ignite the proccess without using a torch? I was planning on just using oxy/Acetylene at a distance (so not to blow the powder away). I have heard of using some potasium compound with glycerol. Does anyone know what the K compound is, or where to find it OTC? (trying to get away from using any kind of flame to start the proccess, so... no Mg)

The applications of using a practiced thermite compound for weldments and cutting is pretty amazing when you figure you dont have to lug your gas cylinders around or a power supply for your plasma cutter.

Some other questions like... how do you think I could allow the puddle to move along the joint?(aside from gravity. I was hoping that I could string the thermite out in a line and have it run straight down it)

What factors would allow control of the heat?

Would the Al2O3 be displaced to the top of the molten puddle? (the Fe will precipitate, and most flux metals rise to the top and form a slag crust, I thought maybe the Al would do the same) If the Al stays in the weld, what might be a way to keep it out? Slag inclusion in any weld sucks nut.

Hardy - 9-4-2004 at 23:57

Potassium Permangenate + Glycerol is a reaction of high enough temperature to ignite the thermite. (I havn't tried this.)

Hardy - 10-4-2004 at 00:01

I'm thinking of trying the thermite reaction this week if I can get my hands on some Magnesium, (or Potassium Permangenate + Glycerol, but I doubt that)
I'll post Pictures if I can

Hermes_Trismegistus - 10-4-2004 at 00:46

Magnesium ribbon is fairly inexpesive and comes in long rolls,

to weld with thermite was a bit of an art form culminating somewhere around the turn of the century, best get a book on it.

Special crucibles were used to funnel the molten steel down into the joint, I beleive it was used not for convienience but because they were the only way of welding some of the gigantic peices of machinery in common use.

paddlewheel axles and such...

For cutting, plasma torches are relatively inexpensive and vastly superior.

I know that gingery sells a book ( Lindsay's technical books ) on thermite welding.

There is a good reason that few people go beyond the play stage with thermite, using it is as a tool requires skill and the medium demands respect. Failure to respect thermite will result in very bad things happening.

Tacho - 10-4-2004 at 05:30

Let me add to what has been said that the iron that comes from a thermite reaction may not be the most appropriate from a structural point of view.

And I would like to emphasize the word "art" mentioned by Hermes. Although I have never done soldering, thermite reactions are a very special kind, and I believe that to get good results with soldering, one must "master an art" rather than just doing it straightforward.

4s2 - 10-4-2004 at 07:46

I understand that there are better ways to do things, but I don't store those items in my truck (although I probably could) on a regular basis. Something about driving around as a potential bomb (moreso than normal)

With thermite I could keep it in my truck(not mixed of course) and take it places that cylinders or electrical consuming tools could not go... say to a junk/scrap yard. or... anywhere else that requires a quick cut. as well I wouldnt need to light ANYTHING on fire, as I would with Mg strips (plus I can't find any where I live)

I found a possible sorce for the Potassium Permangenate, and glycerin from glycol or some first aid crap. I will search today and try to find it. If anything both can be bought online.

As far as the Fe glob in the weld... Fe on its own is understandably not the best for welding steel, as their properties do not match. I had though of including titania and cellulose into the mix to act as a shielding agent, as well the titania would be intoduced with the precipitate and form a stronger weld.(faster)

flashpoint - 10-4-2004 at 16:52

I have two questions, that I have had for a while concerning thermite.

1. Can you get 'sun burnt' from thermite?

2. Is the UV Rays, put off by the process of thermite burning, enough to damage your eyes?

:)

The_Davster - 10-4-2004 at 18:01

I know the UV can damage eyes but I'm not sure if you can get a "sunburn" from it

BromicAcid - 10-4-2004 at 18:48

You can get 'sunburnt' from thermite, if not from any UV rays being produced then definately from the heat. Just as people around a hot fire all day get 'sunburnt'.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 10-4-2004 at 20:04

Yes, you can get sunburn from anything emitting enough light or radiated heat energy.


Perhaps trying to locate magnesium ribbon might be worth the effort, glycerol and permanganate may make localized spots of high carbon (brittle) bubbles

I'm not certain though, you see, the iron produced is at twice its melting point and carbon may be burnt away, the manganese may remain though, you'd have to check it's boiling point.


P.S. You REALLY don't have to worry about any danger from mixed thermite.

Anything hot enough to get that burning would have........

Well, lets put this in perspective, a propane torch can't ignite thermite, a campfire.... can't ignite thermite, a fifty caliber bullet at close range.....can't ignite thermite........ a blazing inferno of a housefire......can't ignite thermite.....

Okey Dokey Smokey.

Psst.....ebay..75 ft roll.....10 bucks

Hermes_Trismegistus - 10-4-2004 at 20:26

and you might be able to find it cheaper where you live, you can just ask for it at a chem supply, if you are asked for the intended use, tell them the truth, thermite isn't controlled or restricted in any way, thermite welding is a completely normal and legal thing.

IgnorantlyIntelligent - 10-4-2004 at 20:40

Just a thought about you carrying buckets full of it in your truck.....I'd LOVE to see 55lbs of thermite burning in the middle of a road!:D:o:D:o
But I know it wuldn't accidently ignite(unless I run up with some ribbon;))

Hermes: Are you sure a camp fire can't ignite it? Hell I've used beer cans as fuel for fires while "campin" and had a fire so hot we we scared of it(from only AL cans:D)

Thermite is a bit energetic and welding with it isn't very general. Maybe this would get more replies if it were in misc. or energetic mat.

[Edited on 11-4-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]

4s2 - 10-4-2004 at 23:50

Quote:
Originally posted by Hermes_Trismegistus
P.S. You REALLY don't have to worry about any danger from mixed thermite.

Yea I am pretty sure that even my burning vehicle would not ignite it, and if it did, I really wouldnt care becuase my truck would allready be on fire... I added that to keep away posters that would think its unsafe.

Now then... I am either going to be purchasing some KMnO4 or Mg ribbon online.

I mixed up the propper amount of Fe2O3 and Al (that I grated off of a failed casting). I found some pure glycerin at walgreens. 4 oz for $2. The KMn04 that I bought was in the form of a fish tank somethiner-other(the bottle didnt give what % of KMnO4 it was, so I might try to concentrate it later). It was a purple liquid. I put the KMnO4 on a paper towel and dropped on some Glycerin. oooo... not a lot happened. after about 5 min the purple turned redish... but that might just do it on its own, or the paper towel could have absorbed it etc.

I tried it again, this time applying it to some Thermite mix, and same thing happened... nothing. at this point I lugged out my Oxy/Acetylene torch and grabbed a double 0 tip.

I found that while the torch could easily make puddles in the chunk of steel I was working on, it would just as easily blow the thermite away. as in... gust of wind, blowing away. it just scattered my pile. so I put the leftover thermite into a container(steel) and heated it again. I got some rather neat sparks(that came out of the thermite area), but the thermite was so scattered I don't think it would have made a continued rxn. Guess I will have to investigate the Mg. A friend said I might be able to find Mg at a gun/ammo shop localy? if not ebay is always cool too.

Marvin - 11-4-2004 at 00:54

It has been suggested that the most reliable way to start thermite is with a sparkler, and that magnesium ribbon has a habit of going out. Ive seen several failed thermite demonstrations where the magnesium ribbon has gone out without igniting it.

Mixed thermite is not that dangerous, but to ignite reliably it helps if the aluminium powder is as fresh as possible, so opening it when needed and mixing would be best.

Esplosivo - 11-4-2004 at 04:23

The burning temperature of magnesium is around 310 deg Celcius, and probably a sparkler could reach somewhere around that temperature, though I wouldn't suggest its use. I have never seen Mg ribbon which stopped burning in air (it burns as hell even in a CO2 atmosphere!!) and even if it does fail why not simply stick another Mg ribbon and try again?! As far as I've understood his is not a demonstration right?

Edit: Btw, to collect most of the liquid iron, together with the aluminium oxide formed a crucible with a relatively small hole at the bottom is used, probably some form of ceramic curcible.

[Edited on 11-4-2004 by Esplosivo]

Saerynide - 11-4-2004 at 06:47

I dont understand how a tiny sparkler can set off thermite but a blazing truck can't :o If you are talking about the same kind of sparkler as I am, those little stick things that you can "write in the air" with using its light at night, then I am really confused. The last time I played with those, it couldnt even catch my cotton shirt on fire (thank god :P)

Um.....

Hermes_Trismegistus - 11-4-2004 at 10:10

I'm not certain as to whether a sparkler can ignite thermite, but if it was, I imagine it would be more widely known than it is.

Also, I beleive that the temperature of burning magnesium ribbon is actually 1335 deg Celsius (2435 degrees F), a little higher than had been previously posted :P

And I understand that even that high temperature is just sufficient to ignite the thermite, and that sometimes doubling or trebling the ribbon at the bottom part that is in contact with the thermite powder helps to provide enough thermal mass to get a high enough local hotspot for ignition.

as to the crucible you need to have the iron pouring out the bottom, don't assume you can use just any type of porcelain or clay, thermite will destroy most, and i can't imgine you want liquid glass or vitrified porcelain in your melt.

Let personal experience speak, for a change :-P

chemoleo - 11-4-2004 at 12:16

Hermes, and whoever else is wondering/debating - sparklers are absolutely fine, and work well.
I don't know how many countless thermites I ignited with it (check Exotic Thermites thread).
I even managed to ignite an Fe2O3/Al thermite with Al-shavings, ranging up to 2 cm in length, and 2 mm in width (there you have to tie two or three together).
Why does it work so well with sparklers?
They contain METAL powders, which produce the sparkles. They obviously burn at a high temperature, which is plenty to ignite the thermite.
In addition, the sparklers are STUCK into the thermite mixture (to provide a better heat contact), and it continues burning - unlike Mg ribbon, which requires gas (O2, CO2, N2, you name) it to burn.
I am sure Esplosivos 310 degC was a typo, as even burning paper easily surpasses this temperature :P So must be yours, Hermes, Magnesium ignites at 632°C and burns at 1982°C :P (just checked)

The problem with the thermite welding is that the resulting Al2O3/Fe forms an intricate mix, and does not separate easily.
To avoid this, a flux agent such as CaF2 is added, which allows easy separation of the oxide and the iron.


PS the only problem with the sparklers I ever had was with CuO/Al, where a single sparkle is enough to set it off! And this burns instantaneously, so be careful, else you will glowing copper gas in your face...


[Edited on 12-4-2004 by chemoleo]

Esplosivo - 11-4-2004 at 13:34

Sorry!:P Should have written 1310 deg celcius and btw it is an approximation as you can note. Damn how much a number can make such a difference lol :P

Edit: This mustn't be my day. I've written the temp. as 310 again before the edit.

[Edited on 11-4-2004 by Esplosivo]

I am curious to know the burning temperature of magnesium in air.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 11-4-2004 at 21:18

I did not use a reference book but rather used the internet. I looked again now and found two references to 1300 C and one to a higher temperature.

My only thought is that these temps are for air and one is for burning in a pure oxygen atmosphere.

Also I just re-read the beginning of the thread. 4s2..........I don't believe thermite is the appropriate tool for welding 1/4" steel plate.

I was used in the past to weld very large/thick objects (like railroad ties) but I'm pretty sure the process involved setting a crucible of thermite above the gap between the peices to be welded and then allowing the molten metal to poured in with greensand or wooden molds to keep the molten iron in the gap until solidification.

There might have been a process for welding thicker steel plate (battleship armor..etc) but thin steel plate would probably warp under the immense heat.

4s2 - 12-4-2004 at 03:58

Yes yes, we all know that thermite is not the best tool. I personaly feel that Oxy/Acetylene is a better tool (at least its more versatile, and carries a high bang for the buck at $500) for welding and cutting. If you are careful you can easily weld quarter inch plate, weld brass, bronze, stainless, Aluminum, cut etc.

What I want is a dry (or mostly dry) chemical compound that can easily be transported and used on the fly. If theres something better than thermite (and isnt going to explode) that can be made instead, then by all means, I would be interested.

They used a crucible method with a flux to pour the iron into joints etc, but if the temp is high enough and it burns at the right rate, I predict that it would be able to create a small puddle in the base metal(after the plate heats up (after a few inches of rxn)) while the small puddle is open, fluxes would help bring the Al2O3 to the top of the weldment, and Titania or something like it would be added into the precipitate of the weld to strengthen it.

If the end result could be hardened rods that could be pulled out on a whim in an isolated condition (such that any kind of welding equipment is not possible).

I guess I dont understand why no one understands that you can't just whip out or easily store gas cylinders in your vehicle(Plus the DOT would have my balls becuase I have an SUV not a truck)
And unless you have a giant alternate alternator, for your special 12 V arc welder... (although I have seen this where they step it up to 110v on a jeep)

I know the marines have some sort of coumpound that can be used to cut, and or sloppy weld, does anyone know what that is?

[Edited on 12-4-2004 by 4s2]

chemoleo - 12-4-2004 at 08:10

Hermes, 1300 deg C is way too low. The light, at that temperature, would still have a yellow tinge to it. While, as you should know, Mg burns with a brilliant white flame... suggesting a large UV portion in it. And this means the temperature HAS to be >1600 deg C.
If they burnt it in pure O2, they would have said.

bliss....

Hermes_Trismegistus - 12-4-2004 at 11:24

Approximate temperature (°C) Color observed
525 faint red
700 dark red
900 cherry red
1100 dark yellow
1200 bright yellow
1300 white
1400 blue white


These are references for magnesium burning temperature.

This one is a chem teacher listing it at 1335 deg C (for burning Mg Ribbon)
http://kaffee.netfirms.com/Chem/Burning.Mg_Demo.html

This one is a chinese magnesium manufacturing plant listing it at 700 - 1000 degrees celcius (for burning Mg Granules)
http://www.mhmqh.com/cpjs/ml001.htm

This one lists the exact temperature you are quoting and so leads me to beleive that this is the one you source you used.
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/byname/cbrne---incendiary-age...

And then there is this British one which supports 1335 deg C as the the burning temperature of magnesium.
http://www.chem.leeds.ac.uk/delights/texts/Demonstration_20....

THis one lists it as >5000 degrees fahrenheit.
http://www.immnet.com/articles?article=1418

In short, it appears that there is no consensus as to the burning temperature of magnesium.

It leads me to believe that the burning temperature varies, perhaps due to the form or size of magnesium particle/ribbon/ingot being burned.

However that is just a supposition. For a final word I'd of course prefer to consult the CRC handbook when I have the opportunity.

P.S. get stuffed.

[Edited on 12-4-2004 by Hermes_Trismegistus]

chemoleo - 12-4-2004 at 11:45

Lolz good to see people read what I write, with Argus eyes :D
It seems there is quite a bit of dis-consensus in the literature, good thing we get clear on this.
Let's make some consensus here (same as you):
The temperature of burning Mg wildly depends on conditions, ranging from 1300 --> ~1900 deg C (700? I never saw Mg burning 'cherry red' ;)). I wasn't aware of that, that ribbon/granules/1kg blocks give different temperatures...allthough now, that I think of it, it makes sense.
As to colour vs temp - I found the same data as you, but remembered incorrectly. My bad :(
It just strikes me that the burning temp is quoted to be sometimes that low - not for no reason Mg (or Al) is quoted to burn with a VERY hot flame. 1330 deg C is just a few hundred deg above molten iron... plus, I was thinking in terms of thermites, where effectively Mg/Al is burning, and this easily reaches 1800 deg C - despite the fact that the oxide has to be reduced, which entails an inherent energy loss (the oxide being reduced to the metal). Admittedly this is still not the same as burning it in air, so this probably explains my confusion on this.
Anyway, back to topic (and no more needless accusations pls :))


[Edited on 12-4-2004 by chemoleo]

Mr. Wizard - 14-4-2004 at 11:13

Some thoughts on welding without gas containers. You can use your car or truck alternator to weld, You can even use a few car batteries connected in series. I won't give details because a search of the internet will turn up all you need, with pictures, equipment, and examples. It isn't the ideal, but it will work. Since this is a thermite thread I'll throw in that it is possible to ignite fairly course thermite with a hot wire with a car battery and jumper cables. Fasten 6 inchs (150 mm) of 1/16" (1.5 mm) flexible steel cable to some heavy copper cables. Jumper cables work well, and have the clamps on them already. Bury the steel wire in the mass of the thermite and when you want to ignite it just connect the cables to a charged automobile battery. Use the standard precautions you would observe when working around car batteries, gasoline, and electricity. It is possible for the car battery to explode if you draw too much current. This won't work with small one inch (2.5 cm) piles of thermite, but it will on larger ones. Don't stare at the glowing metal, it will leave spots in front of your eyes.

adam.braley - 13-2-2011 at 09:08

Let me first start by saying that I'm approaching this from the perspective of a chemistry student, not a welder.

Magnesium may burn at high temp, but the heat is quite localized and may be recorded as much lower if you were, say, to take at thermometer to it. Also, powdered and thin strips of magnesium burn readily, but good luck igniting a solid block; i would expect the see different temps listed for different forms. Also, magnesium will also burn in water. The only way to put it out is to remove it from a reactive atmosphere, which usually means smothering it in dry sand. I imagine that if you bury it in the thermite mix, it may go out before you reach ignition.

The easiest way to ignite thermite is, shocker, with thermite. Get a tiny bit ignited and it will set off the rest.

If your aluminum has formed an aluminum oxide layer, it will increase the temp needed for ignition since you'll need to melt through to the aluminum (mp is over 3x that of elemental aluminum) Note that aluminum oxide is a product, and therefore it will slow the reaction.

There are ways to make this reaction occur more easily, depending on the intended use. Sulfur is a good additive because it lowers the melting point of surrounding Fe and leads to superior welds. Oh, yeah. Don't forget that the molten Fe you make is well past the melting point. It will melt into and through a lot. I personally love the scene in Burn Notice where Michael bores through the engine block of a car using a coffee can of a thermite mixture.

Thermate is a mixture of iron thermite (yes, you can have copper, chromium, ect thermites; thermite is actually any mixture of reactants that undergo a thermite reaction) and several other additives like sulfur, barium nitrate, and a binder (which allows you to shape it and avoid losing reactants to the slightest breeze). Red gum should work. It's often used in fireworks and the like, though I've heard that synthetic polymer resins like PBAN are used by the military in thermate anti-material grenades.

Thermate is nice because it's easier to ignite and interacts more with the surrounding metal. Now, before you point and say, "Hey, I want to weld, not melt through heavy artillery", I will point out that thermite is also used for welding (didn't mean to get you excited by all that "anti-material" stuff).

@4s2: This is pure conjecture, but I would assume that thermate is the thing you heard about the marines using for quick welds.

I'd promote unitednuclear.com as a decent place to buy all these things. They sell lots of fun science stuff, including reagents like aluminum powder, barium nitrate, sulfur, red gum, magnesium (ribbon and powder), not to mention a standard thermite (premixed) and "thermite ignition mix" which I cannot comment on. They say it overcomes the difficulty in using magnesium, but I've never tried it and I don't know what's in it.

Oh, one final note. Sparklers are often cited as a good tool for igniting thermite because they are a cheap, readily available source of magnesium, though they do contain a mix of metals. You can smother them just as easily as magnesium. "Burning" is simply an exothermic redox reaction. If you remove the reactants, you terminate the reaction.

hissingnoise - 13-2-2011 at 13:15

Quote:
"Burning" is simply an exothermic redox reaction.

Good opening post, but pointing out the bleedin' obvious is a bit superfluous!


condennnsa - 13-2-2011 at 13:21

sparklers can not be 'smothered' like magnesium, it is a pyrotechnic composition, with an oxidiser and fuel.

hissingnoise - 13-2-2011 at 13:35

It isn't smothering - it's disrupting and it happens because Fe3O4 requires very high heat for its decomposition!


blogfast25 - 13-2-2011 at 13:59

Thermite welding is still used for welding together tram rails. You just need a little ‘mould’ around where the joint is to be made and use approximately the right amount of thermite mix to form enough iron to fill the cavity. Alloys can also be produced by means of mixed oxide thermites.

Thermites are also used in unstoppable incendiary bombs, see e.g. the London 'Blitz'.

‘Drop-moulding’ (as it’s also known as) is also used for producing crude niobium from Nb2O5 + 10/3 Al === > 2 Nb + 5/3 Al2O3. The hot, newly formed liquid metal (T > 2,500 C!) flows straight into a mould below the reaction crucible.

Glycerine is a sweetener (among many other things) that you can find on the shelves of supermarkets (in the UK).

I prefer a stoiciometric mix of Al powder and KClO3 as ignition mix, lit with Mg ribbon or festive sparkler.


All intensive white light causes skin to bronze: argon welder's hands for instance tend to go brown due to exposure to UV in the very hot white light.


[Edited on 13-2-2011 by blogfast25]

peach - 13-2-2011 at 14:47

Thermite is still used to weld train tracks together, where it needs to be done quickly and there is a big gap to fill.

There are even companies who produce the special crucibles that sit over the rails and they come with bags of premixed thermite to pour in and set off. Mixing some magnesium powder in can help the entire thing go. The thermite is set off and allowed to fully melt before the gate is opened and the molten iron is poured into the mould around the track. Once it's cooled enough, a grinder smooths the crud off to give a bump free finish.

I once looked at the prices for producing iron for casting by thermite, and it is a lot more expensive than using a gas flame.

In terms of producing high quality, precise welds, you would be far better off using an arc welder. The same for cutting. Thermite just gets hot. Making something hot alone is not a great way to cut it. Oxy/acetylene torches, plasma cutters and laser tables all use a jet of gas to blow the molten material out of the way. The goal is usually to melt the smallest amount as possible and blow as much of it out of the cut as can be done, to save energy and produce a thin kerf, slag free cut. You'll notice they are using a gas torch in the video about welding the track with thermite.

There was a mythbusters episode in which they set off half a ton of thermite.

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="853" height="510" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vCqG3rWtNbc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="510" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PPAYZMzGMwQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="853" height="510" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BnHR4cMXiyM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Edited on 13-2-2011 by peach]

blogfast25 - 14-2-2011 at 09:37

The ‘thermite a car’ video was pretty lame: these freaks don’t know the first thing about thermites. They must have been using a slow burning mix and those just don’t reach the same temperatures because a lot of the heat is lost to the environment and can’t heat up the reaction products. A ‘fast and hot’ ferric thermite would at least have burned through the roof like melting butter in a pan, like the one that ‘burned’ through four plates… ‘Mythbusters busted’!

peach - 14-2-2011 at 11:16

I was going to say the same thing, but didn't want to cloud the thread up with too much negativity.

The car was not impressive. ;)

Even the constant explosions begin to get a little boring. It's more amusing watching Adam go down a hillside slide and into a lake, or them trying to saw their way out of a prison with dental floss.

With regards to the exploding ice, I suspect Jamie is correct. I have seen lead blow it's self all over the place when even slightly damp solid bits are added to a molten pool. It is common practice among the at home casters to warm bits of metal up on top of the furnace prior to dunking extra in, to boil off the water first.

Since they have the money to buy half a ton of it, they could have put 11lbs into a tank of water. I expect it wouldn't produce the same effect.

[Edited on 14-2-2011 by peach]

Thermite incendiaries

The WiZard is In - 14-2-2011 at 12:59

A lot of info on thermite has been posted here, to put it politely —
a lot of what has been posted is not three-sigma.

Let me start with thermite’s use as an incendiary, it was not much
used (“The production of magnesium bombs had no sooner been
fairly launched when it became apparent that there was not going
to be sufficient magnesium available to the Service for the great
quantity of incendiaries required. To circumvent this shortage the
Service devised another type of metallic incendiary, a steel-cased
bomb containing thermite with a standard flare mixture of barium
nitrate and aluminium. The design of this bomb, the 4-pound M54
incendiary, was completed in October 1941, and the following April
it was tested by General Doolittle in his historic raid on Japan. By
the summer of 1942 the CWS had produced several millions of
these bombs for the Army Air Forces. Their production was cut
down shortly thereafter, however, when supplies of magnesium,
which was produced a superior incendiary, again began to flow into
factories producing incendiaries for the service.” Anon. The
Chemical Warfare Service in World War II : A Report of
Accomplishments. Rienhold Publishing for The Chemical Corps
Association. 1948) .

Themite use in air dropped munitions has two problems. 1-
Mechanical. It is a powder and thus difficult to contain, therefore a
strong case in required – dead weight. 2- Chemical. Perhaps one of
the chemists here will save me the time and explain thermite’s
obvious chemical problem when used in air delivered munitions.

Attempts were made to consolidate it. AMCP 706-185 Engineering
Design Handbook, Military Pyrotechnic Series – Part One – Theory
and Application. (Free DL from DTIC.mil). “During World War I,
binders such as sodium silicate, sulfur or celluloid were added in
order to reduce segregation of the thermite during loading;
however, these techniques were only partially successful. Thermite
has not been used since World War I for incendiary applications.”

Thermite is used on a local basis, thermite grenades and
Cryptographic Equipment Destroyers, TH4 , M1A2 and TH4, M2A1
[MIL-C-12469K] (28-pounds of thermite) come to mind.

Mention has been made of incendiary’s that could not be
extinguished. In WW II the Germans found a method – “It was
German technicians who first though of combining a high explosive
charge with an incendiary bomb in order to discourage fire fighters
from extinguishing it. Scores of fire wardens in England were killed
in the first raid in which these bombs were uses, for the explosive
charge did not go off until some time after the bomb had began to
burn. We retaliated immediately by incorporating into the M50
bomb 35 grams of tetryl whit a delay detonator.” Chemical Warfare
Service in WWII.


I don’t have the time to expend this into a treatise on incendiary
warfare so I will just not in passing I shelve:—

George J.B. Fisher
Incendiary Warfare
McGraw-Hill, 1946

Incendiary Warfare
A SIPRI Monograph
The MIT Press/Almqvist & Wiksell, Sweden.,
1975

E. Bartlett Kerr
Flames Over Tokyo : The U.S. Army Air Forces’ Incendiary
Campaign Against Japan 1944-1945
Donald I. Fine, Inc. 1991

And two others I cannot at the moment put hands on.

Noted in passing—

The US Army built typical Japanese and German buildings at
Dugway Proving Ground [UT] and dropped incendiary bombs on
them "to learn what happened when bombs of certain types struck
enemy structures." "They also dropped phosgene, cyanogen
chloride, and hydrogen cyanide bombs ranging in size from 100 to
4,000 pounds....."

LP Brophy, & et al
United States Army in World War II
The Technical Services
The Chemical Warfare Service : From Laboratory to Field
Department of the Army, 1959.

The US army set a hanger and a generals car a fire with incendiary
(phosphorus) carried by bats!

Jack Couffer
Bat Bomb : World War II's Other Secret Weapon
U of Texas Press, 1992

There is a phrase in Latin by Virgil that best describes this book –
Apparent rari nantes in gurgite vasco. I translate it as — This book
is Long on Chit-chat and BS.

Before I forget - Myth Busters Thermite.... Well dem MB's
occasional are in well over their heads technically speaking.

I remember their Guncotton/cellulose nitrate expert nitrating a pair
of blue jeans... red fumes pouring out of the glass vessel... if I
was standing there I would A- Dump it into cold water, B- Run. Red
fumes are a clear indication that the HNO3/H2SO4 it tooo hot, the
red fumes are often followed by the cotton bursting into flame.

MB's thermite ... they used aluminium and iron oxide which was
much too fine. I don't know why they used red iron oxide (ferric
oxide Fe2O3 ) military thermite uses "iron oxide scale"
(Ferrosoferric oxide, Magnetic iron oxide, Fe3O4).

Extra credit - what is the oxidation number for the iron in Fe3O4?

Next up - thermite welding, except I have to go down to the shop
and pick up a few books.


djh
----
To the meaningless French idealism's,
Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, we
oppose the German realities, Infantry,
Cavalry, and Artillery.

Prince Bernhard von Bulow


[Edited on 14-2-2011 by The WiZard is In]

The WiZard is In - 14-2-2011 at 13:37

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

I don’t have the time to expend this into a treatise on incendiary
warfare so I will just not in passing I shelve:—

And two others I cannot at the moment put hands on.

Found one book —

Sir Donald Banks, K.C.B., D.S.O., M.C., T.D.
Flame Over Britain : A Personal Narrative of Petroleum Warfare
Sampson Low, Marston, & Co. London, ND

More than you ever wanted to know 'bout British plans to use
Fougasse &c. in WW II.

The WiZard is In - 15-2-2011 at 11:55

Quote: Originally posted by 4s2  
Sure everyone asks about how to make thermite etc, but has anyone done any in depth reaction testing?

I have heard that railroad rails used to be welded together with a simple thermite proccess. I want to try and work it with .25 inch plate steel on some general joints. I also want to use it for cutting.



I am going to take the easy-way out time wise. I recommend —

[I own hard copies of these.]

Ethan Viall
Gas Torch and Thermit Welding
McGraw Hill 1921

Free DL from Google.com/books
http://tinyurl.com/67xaa7g

Richard N Hart
Welding Theory Practice, Apparatus and Tests
McGraw Hill 1910

Chapter IV has been reprinted by Lindsay Publications.
You can DL the entire book from Google.com/books
http://tinyurl.com/4o6r3xo

Welding Handbook
Volume 3
Resistance and Solid-State Welding and Other Joining Processes
American Welding Society
7th ed 1980 [There may be a litter ed I own this ed.]

NB - Note that whatever is themite welded is first heated to red
heat. If you do not ... the molten metal flowing down will rapidly
cool-solidify and block the flow. Heating is covered in la books.

An aside ... I remember years back standing on the station
platform watching track being stick welded. The power source
was the 3rd rail through a box of metal coil - current limiting
resistors. Then even more years back my father and I built
an carbon arc using one of the 500 W wire coil wrapped around
a ceramic cone heater elements for current control with D cell
carbon electrodes.


AWS Handbook

Table 13.1 Examples of Thermit weld dimensions and mold
requirements.

Size of opening 16" Gap. 1 - 5/8" Thermit required lb. 3 125.

Eat you hearts out Myth Busters!!

----
RR Track Welding 101
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsigudZdWMY

Sorry to say they cut off the last 30-seconds or so, catch it when its
is on TV again. Or buy the video.


djh
----
WALL STREET JOURNAL
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
JANUARY 27, 2011
Land of Milk and Regulation
Preventing the next dairy farm oil slick.

President Obama says he wants to purge regulations that are "just plain dumb," like
his humorous State of the Union bit about salmon. So perhaps he should review a
new rule that is supposed to prevent oil spills akin to the Gulf Coast disaster-at the
nation's dairy farms.

Two weeks ago, the Environmental Protection Agency finalized a rule that subjects
dairy producers to the Spill Prevention, Control and Countermeasure program,
which was created in 1970 to prevent oil discharges in navigable waters or near
shorelines. Naturally, it usually applies to oil and natural gas outfits. But the EPA
has discovered that milk contains "a percentage of animal fat, which is a non-
petroleum oil," as the agency put it in the Federal Register.

In other words, the EPA thinks the next blowout may happen in rural Vermont or
Wisconsin. Other dangerous pollution risks that somehow haven't made it onto the
EPA docket include leaks from maple sugar taps and the vapors at Badger State
breweries.

The EPA rule requires farms-as well as places that make cheese, butter, yogurt, ice
cream and the like-to prepare and implement an emergency management plan in
the event of a milk catastrophe. Among dozens of requirements, farmers must train
first responders in cleanup protocol and build "containment facilities" such as dikes
or berms to mitigate offshore dairy slicks.

These plans must be in place by November, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture
is even running a $3 million program "to help farmers and ranchers comply with on-
farm oil spill regulations." You cannot make this stuff up.

The final rule is actually more lenient than the one the EPA originally proposed. The
agency tried to claim jurisdiction over the design specifications of "milk containers
and associated piping and appurtenances," until the industry pointed out that such
equipment was already overseen by the Food and Drug Administration, the USDA
and state inspectors. The EPA conceded, "While these measures are not specifically
intended for oil spill prevention, we believe they may prevent discharges of oil in
quantities that are harmful."

We appreciate Mr. Obama's call for more regulatory reason, but it would be more
credible if one of his key agencies wasn't literally crying over unspilled milk.




peach - 15-2-2011 at 12:18

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

All intensive white light causes skin to bronze: argon welder's hands for instance tend to go brown due to exposure to UV in the very hot white light.


Oh yes, I forgot someone mentioned that. You certainly can get a suntan from the UV of intensely hot objects and particularly welding torches.

I used to have a summer job welding custom iron gates and railings. We only had one one automatic visor. One afternoon we had a big 12ft+ high and wide automatic set to do, so I was holding the bars still and closing my eyes whilst the other guy welded them into place.

2 or so hours of intensive welding later, I came out looking like Dale Winton. Which began many days of funny remarks from just about everyone we had to visit. I knew the torch was giving out a lot, because it was a three phase industrial set. But, as with going on holiday and getting sunburnt outdoors, it's easy to misjudge what's happening at the time.

The WiZard is In - 1-3-2011 at 09:22

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
A lot of info on thermite has been posted here, to put it politely —
a lot of what has been posted is not three-sigma.

I don’t have the time to expend this into a treatise on incendiary
warfare so I will just not in passing I shelve:—

And two others [books] I cannot at the moment put hands on.


Found the second book.

Major J.W. Mountcastle
The Holocaust : American Incendiary Bombs of World War II
Master of Military Art and Science (MMAS) Thesis.
US Army Command and General Staff College
10 Jun 1977
AD A042872

Neil - 16-4-2011 at 18:15

Quote: Originally posted by Hermes_Trismegistus  


P.S. You REALLY don't have to worry about any danger from mixed thermite.

Anything hot enough to get that burning would have........

Well, lets put this in perspective, a propane torch can't ignite thermite, a campfire.... can't ignite thermite, a fifty caliber bullet at close range.....can't ignite thermite........ a blazing inferno of a housefire......can't ignite thermite.....

Okey Dokey Smokey.


A propane torch will ignite thermite, a campfire can ignite thermite, a 50cal bullet can ignite some thermites. I've also ignited very fine thermites with a candle flame.

I haven't shot any thermites but i do recall seeing videos of CuO/Al being set off by a .308 IIRC.

(Really going out a limb, I think the videos may have been produced by an Aussie member of this forum?)

Quote: Originally posted by adam.braley  
Let me first start by saying that I'm approaching this from the perspective of a chemistry student, not a welder.

Magnesium may burn at high temp, but the heat is quite localized and may be recorded as much lower if you were, say, to take at thermometer to it. Also, powdered and thin strips of magnesium burn readily, but good luck igniting a solid block; i would expect the see different temps listed for different forms. Also, magnesium will also burn in water. The only way to put it out is to remove it from a reactive atmosphere, which usually means smothering it in dry sand. I imagine that if you bury it in the thermite mix, it may go out before you reach ignition.

The easiest way to ignite thermite is, shocker, with thermite. Get a tiny bit ignited and it will set off the rest.

If your aluminum has formed an aluminum oxide layer, it will increase the temp needed for ignition since you'll need to melt through to the aluminum (mp is over 3x that of elemental aluminum) Note that aluminum oxide is a product, and therefore it will slow the reaction.

There are ways to make this reaction occur more easily, depending on the intended use. Sulfur is a good additive because it lowers the melting point of surrounding Fe and leads to superior welds. Oh, yeah. Don't forget that the molten Fe you make is well past the melting point. It will melt into and through a lot. I personally love the scene in Burn Notice where Michael bores through the engine block of a car using a coffee can of a thermite mixture.

Thermate is a mixture of iron thermite (yes, you can have copper, chromium, ect thermites; thermite is actually any mixture of reactants that undergo a thermite reaction) and several other additives like sulfur, barium nitrate, and a binder (which allows you to shape it and avoid losing reactants to the slightest breeze). Red gum should work. It's often used in fireworks and the like, though I've heard that synthetic polymer resins like PBAN are used by the military in thermate anti-material grenades.

Thermate is nice because it's easier to ignite and interacts more with the surrounding metal. Now, before you point and say, "Hey, I want to weld, not melt through heavy artillery", I will point out that thermite is also used for welding (didn't mean to get you excited by all that "anti-material" stuff).

@4s2: This is pure conjecture, but I would assume that thermate is the thing you heard about the marines using for quick welds.

I
Oh, one final note. Sparklers are often cited as a good tool for igniting thermite because they are a cheap, readily available source of magnesium, though they do contain a mix of metals. You can smother them just as easily as magnesium. "Burning" is simply an exothermic redox reaction. If you remove the reactants, you terminate the reaction.


The easiest way to put out magnesium ribbon is to look at it funny.;)

Sulfur + weld = super brittle metal

Thermate was created with intention of producing a high heat incendiary which would be able to produce widespread damage. while Thermite throws some heat and some fumes(none in a perfect world) it's damage is so localized that it is not effective as a weapon. Thermate was an attempt to use sulfur and barium nitrate to diffuse the heat allowing for a wider area of damage. The temperatures of it's molten products are at lower temperatures then plain Fe3O4 thermite made from scale.

Curiously, the last batches of sparklers I purchased explicitly stated "Magnesium free" on the packaging. That being said I can wrap them tightly in paper or Al foil, bury them in sand or even something horrific like flour and still have them burn contentedly. They work very well for igniting thermite; far better in my experience then Mg ribbon. They can be very dangerous in that the sparks are more then capable of igniting some of the more spirited thermites and care must be taken to prevent pre-ignition.



Neil - 16-4-2011 at 18:31

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
The ‘thermite a car’ video was pretty lame: these freaks don’t know the first thing about thermites. They must have been using a slow burning mix and those just don’t reach the same temperatures because a lot of the heat is lost to the environment and can’t heat up the reaction products. A ‘fast and hot’ ferric thermite would at least have burned through the roof like melting butter in a pan, like the one that ‘burned’ through four plates… ‘Mythbusters busted’!


:P Going off the color of the iron oxide and the way it burned... I'd put my money on them having used a hydrated oxide. :P


thermite paint

symboom - 16-4-2011 at 20:43

Ive dissolved Styrofoam in acetone with forms a plastic and using ratios
of sulfur potassium nitrate aluminum and iron oxide ive just have had problems with the ratios
i know i have to add a lot more oxidizer since the Styrofoam burns sooty
2 KNO3 + 4 Al + S → K2S + N2 + 2 Al2O3 but this is the formulation for flash powder add iron oxide and Styrofoam so anyone guess how this is going to work or whats the best ratios
Of>
Al
S
KNO3
C(Styrofoam dissolved in acetone as the binder)
<the acetone makes it more of a paint once the acetone leaves its plastic material with the compounds embedded in it
Fe2O3

Neil - 17-4-2011 at 05:11

http://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/zf/LZ129fire2005jan12.pdf

AJKOER - 7-5-2011 at 20:33

I would add that don't just ignite the thermite with an arc, use the arc in a stream of Hydrogen gas. This is the so called Atomic Hydrogen torch. Why? Because it operates in the range of Thermal plasma torches with a temperature of 3,700 C!

More details:
http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/AtomicH/atomicH.html
EXTRACT:
"Invented by Langmuir in 1926 , this device produces a temperature of 3700 degrees centigrade. Tungsten can be melted, diamond vapourised.
A jet of hydrogen gas is dissociated as it passes through an electric arc. H2 > H + H - 422 kJ. An endothermic reaction, with the intensely hot plasma core of the arc providing the dissociation energy. The atomic hydrogen produced soon recombines; and this recombination is the source of such high temperatures (easily outperforming oxy-hydrogen: 2800oC and oxy-acetylene: 3315oC)."

I wonder if replacing H2/O2 mixture with H2/Cl2 in an arc would actually produce a hotter flame? I know that a so called "Hydrogen Chlorine Controlled Explosion" torch is much hotter than H2/O2 mixture.