Sciencemadness Discussion Board

NaCN bait for rodents

doctorofmind - 10-8-2011 at 19:12

Hey guys !

Could you please tell me which should be the concentration of NaCN in rodent baits? I want to make like 300 g of cereals based rat poison and mix it with water, some sugar and NaCN. 10 mg should be lethal for a rodent so I thought 1% (3,00g) ... is this enough ?


Thank you !

woelen - 11-8-2011 at 01:08

Why not buy the standard available rodent poison and use that? I have the impression that 'toying' with NaCN in this way is illegal and can cause you big trouble.

doctorofmind - 11-8-2011 at 01:27

Well, it is more an experiment to see if I can eradicate rats with simply NaCN. But maybe you are right, I should not give cyanide to people as rat poison - it is quite dangerous and illegal...

Saerynide - 11-8-2011 at 04:15

You should buy the standard rat poisons. What if a dog came around and ate it?

Megamarko94 - 11-8-2011 at 05:56

be careful that you dont poison your self

not_important - 11-8-2011 at 06:56

You go someplace like this http://iccvam.niehs.nih.gov/meetings/SOT03/poster/paris.pdf and find the LD50 for the poison you want. Then you catch and weight your rats to determine the average weight, and calculate the needed dosage to kill the average rat. After that you need to determine the average amount a rat will consume at a time, which lets you calculate the need proportion of poison.

Note the NaCN and KCN are alkaline in solution. HCN is a very weak acid and its salts hydrolyse easily; weak acids such as lactic and even CO2 will release HCN from its ionic salts. I suspect that it would work better in oil-based baits than in water based mixtures. Even so it will slowly 'leak' HCN when exposed to the atmosphere.

The WiZard is In - 11-8-2011 at 08:32

Quote: Originally posted by doctorofmind  
Hey guys !

Could you please tell me which should be the concentration of NaCN in rodent baits? I want to make like 300 g of cereals based rat poison and mix it with water, some sugar and NaCN. 10 mg should be lethal for a rodent so I thought 1% (3,00g) ... is this enough ?

Thank you !

Problem being - alkali metal cyanides are not stable in open air
and especially when exposed to moisture. In my misplaced
youth you could buy small cans of Cyanogas (calcium
cyanide) ant poison.

http://tinyurl.com/Cyanogas-advert


White phosphorus works— Attachment: Phosphorus Rat Poison.doc (22kB)
This file has been downloaded 629 times

Use squill. http://tinyurl.com/Squill-rat-poison

doctorofmind - 11-8-2011 at 12:39

I don't have acces to P4 and I find it more dangerous than NaCN. Cyanide is strongly alcaline but I don't think it can be incorporated in oil... Maybe making a suspension of 1 g NaCN in 100 g melted lard would be effective?

The WiZard is In - 11-8-2011 at 13:14

Quote: Originally posted by doctorofmind  
I don't have acces to P4 and I find it more dangerous than NaCN. Cyanide is strongly alcaline but I don't think it can be incorporated in oil... Maybe making a suspension of 1 g NaCN in 100 g melted lard would be effective?

The main problem is getting rats to eat it. They are notoriously
difficult to poison, I suffer from doubt 'bout alkaline cyanides
given their strong odour.


djh
----
Couldn't find this on my HD,
so I pulled it up using Deja.com.


Finding my kitchen invaded with sugar loving ants I put some sugar water in an old
ice cube tray with a 3/5 index card leading up to it in the morning, when I returned
from work at 0100 hours or so, I vacuumed the ants up. Well.... by the second night
.... looks like I am going to need an industrial vacuum cleaner. So .... I added a few
grains of K cyanide to the solution, returned at night and ran the solution and dead
ants (one sip and they died into the sugar water) through a sieve and poured it back
into the pan.... by the third night there were no more ants.


I remember reading while in da Army in Germany (1963-65) that at the training areas
every time an American tank ran over an ant hill the Germans fined the US Army 100 DM
($25 each). "Ants keep the forest clean."


“If one could conclude as to the nature of the
Creator from a study of his creation it would
appear that God has a special fondness for
stars and beetles.”

J. B. S. Haldane (British geneticist 1892-1964)

---
Then why did he invent chlorodane? /djh/







cyanureeves - 11-8-2011 at 15:41

doctorofmind have you ever dissolved gold or any metal with your cyanide? does it dissolve at a fast rate? that stuff is super expensive, you are very fortunate to have some. did you know that rats are very fast learners and if they see a fellow rat croak on cyanide,they themselves will not fall for the bane? i made a failed home made cyanide synthesis and mixed some with cheese and left it in my work shed and the following morning the cheese was neatly covered with pecan leaves. freaked me the heck out! . by the way one reason for warfarin in rat poison was so the rats would not die on the spot. i swear on the one true holy rodent and his prophet that i am telling you the truth.

[Edited on 11-8-2011 by cyanureeves]

doctorofmind - 11-8-2011 at 16:10

No I haven't dissolved any metal in NaCN - however I doubt it will react at a fast rate because it also needs O2 from the air...maybe if you bubble pure O2 i don't know. NaCN is not expensive at all it is just quite restricted...
Yea, that is quite freaky :)) Maybe if you synthesise cyanide with greater purity at least it will kill one bastard :)

One idea is to put multiple "single-dose" baits all over the place rather than using all the poison in one corner.

The cheese idea is nice :cool: but if you have to kill a whole rodent family maybe it is cheaper to just buy a super-warfarin rat poison:P

AJKOER - 16-8-2011 at 10:38

I would forget the NaCN over possible legal and safety concerns and instead try Lead Acetate, used with success in the reputed poisoning of a Pope. Note, "Sugar of Lead" was for many centuries employed as a sugar substitute.

You can make it by slowly dissolving (in a day you will have a good solution) Lead in a solution of vinegar and H2O2. Caution: as a soluble Lead salt, the threat of Lead poisoning is increased through skin contact.

Lets hope your rat has a sweet tooth.

White Yeti - 25-8-2011 at 01:13

You could experiment with different rat poisons that are a little less dangerous. How about using metal sulfides for example? In contact with gastric acid, iron sulfide will release H2S, a killer gas almost as poisonous as cyanide. Just one problem though, rats are smart, if they see that their family member ate something and died soon thereafter, other rats won't eat your poison. The most effective poison is so called slow acting poison, where the rats die 72 hours after eating. Thus, they don't remember where they ate something suspicious.

mario840 - 25-8-2011 at 02:47

thiosemicarbazide will do the job

Yum yum

dann2 - 25-8-2011 at 14:16


I guess the quick acting poisons will not work for rats and the slow acting one's will not work for elephants?

I have heard of 'hard wall' (plater of paris, Calcium Sulphate +1/2 H2O) being used as a very cheap rat poison. Mix with sugar or something tasty and dry. If its gets wet it's no good. It bungs up the rat. Have not tried it myself.
Anyways, where I come from the rats have rickets so things are not too good...............

Great wee video (to cheer you all up) here, about fake medicines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-Qyu9KbBo

Bon Appetite!!!!!!!!!!!

Dann2


[Edited on 25-8-2011 by dann2]

not_important - 25-8-2011 at 19:45

Most rodent poisons these days are anti-coagulants, only need low does and are slow enough that accidental ingestion by other than the target can be remedied. Vitamin D is another, sometimes used in conjunction with anti-coagulants. Zinc phosphide is a faster acting poison, usually in rotation with one or more of the previous poisons.

If you must mix your own, try BaCO3 (BaSO4 will _not_ work) mixed with cheese or peanut butter, plus some cereal product to bulk it up. Slow enough acting that they won't quickly come to associate your bait with the deaths of other rats.

But seriously, I'd just buy a commercial product from a feed store.

mario840 - 25-8-2011 at 22:05

No BaCO3 because it's insoluble in water and LD50 because of it is much higher than BaCl2 which can be used in good effect

not_important - 26-8-2011 at 06:33

The HCl is the rodents digestive system converts the carbonate to the chloride; the carbonate is essentially tasteless which the chloride has a distinctive "unnatural" taste the the rodents will avoid. You don't want water soluble, as it can be leached out of the bait.

AJKOER - 8-9-2011 at 20:52

A desperate and certainly dangerous way to make a toxin to kill small animals (cat and dogs included so be aware) would be to prepare a very small quantity of NCl3 vapor which is employed immediately to treat flour. Interestingly for some time, it was actually used to bleach flour so check on my suggested process.

The big problem with this approach is that any condensed liquid NCl3 formed is also an unpredictable highly explosive substance (avoid light, heat, shock, select organic compounds,...) and even small quantities can produce injuries (checkout its history of famous chemists with missing body parts).

However, I do remember reading of dogs dying after consuming bread bleached with Nitrogen trichloride so it may be of use here. Also, humans consuming your flour are apparently not at risk so we have a selective toxin with a preparation issue.

Neil - 9-9-2011 at 02:09

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
A desperate and certainly dangerous way to make a toxin to kill small animals (cat and dogs included so be aware) would be to prepare a very small quantity of NCl3 vapor which is employed immediately to treat flour. Interestingly for some time, it was actually used to bleach flour so check on my suggested process.

The big problem with this approach is that any condensed liquid NCl3 formed is also an unpredictable highly explosive substance (avoid light, heat, shock, select organic compounds,...) and even small quantities can produce injuries (checkout its history of famous chemists with missing body parts).

However, I do remember reading of dogs dying after consuming bread bleached with Nitrogen trichloride so it may be of use here. Also, humans consuming your flour are apparently not at risk so we have a selective toxin with a preparation issue.



Suggesting people create nitrogen trichloride is just daft. Come on, you know better.

blogfast25 - 9-9-2011 at 07:21

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
A desperate and certainly dangerous way to make a toxin to kill small animals (cat and dogs included so be aware) would be to prepare a very small quantity of NCl3 vapor which is employed immediately to treat flour. Interestingly for some time, it was actually used to bleach flour so check on my suggested process.

The big problem with this approach is that any condensed liquid NCl3 formed is also an unpredictable highly explosive substance (avoid light, heat, shock, select organic compounds,...) and even small quantities can produce injuries (checkout its history of famous chemists with missing body parts).

However, I do remember reading of dogs dying after consuming bread bleached with Nitrogen trichloride so it may be of use here. Also, humans consuming your flour are apparently not at risk so we have a selective toxin with a preparation issue.


Ever the fantasist of impossible schemes, eh?

[Edited on 9-9-2011 by blogfast25]

AJKOER - 9-9-2011 at 07:48

While I agree with your sentiment, but replicating on a micro level what was produced per a certain process (I speculate on vapor approach) on an industrial scale to bleach flour, may not be totally daft. Apparently, the flour maintains its good taste making it an effective tool against rodents.

On the other side of the coin, letting rodents run wild with the potential spread of deadly diseases (the Black Death for one) to kill people en masse (or, in my opinion, just one unnecessary death as public health officials cannot/will not address the rodent problem especially in poor areas) is not a pleasant alternative either. Also, playing around with some the compounds suggested isn't exactly without risk either to the party making them and/or others.

Also, on a thread on poisons, one should not dismiss the potential terrorist looking for highly lethal toxins. At least my potentially dangerous (only to the party making the NCl3 vapor) suggestion doesn't give a potential terrorist anything useful for dispensing in water reservoirs or the like (NCl3 actually breakdowns in water yielding N2 and Cl2). To the extent that it answers the thread issue, the author is genuine, and ends discussions before someone mentions an inappropriate toxin (that is, highly lethal to humans also in very small doses, and they exist as I am not an expert in this area and can cite one such compound), all the better.

However, I am concerned about innocent animals that could be harmed, but proper dispensing where only rats would have ready access may lessen this threat (also, not having large animals eat all the bait is efficient).

I hope I provided ample warnings on NCl3 for those who may mistakenly think it has any recreational value. Note, I have deliberately avoided mentioning any preparation methods for NCl3.

ScienceSquirrel - 9-9-2011 at 07:54

Preparing your own rodent bait is illegal in quite a few jurisdictions.
If you want to kill rats or mice either use appropriate traps or purchase prepared bait.

Neil - 9-9-2011 at 09:44

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2079


Don't suggest things you know diddle about.

If an evil terrorist was sneaking around looking for evil chemicals to put in our water they could hmm read the USA DOE data base or the text books in the sci madness library (You know the ones about war gasses?). Suggesting people look up and try things that are more likely to end with them and their neighbors in pieces doesn't count as 'not totally daft'. It is totally daft.

NCl3 is terrifying all on its own.

mario840 - 9-9-2011 at 10:24

buahahahahahah people here always amaze me, NaCN, NCl3, BaCO3 hahahahah just broke thermometr add to Hg dilute HNO3 you got very good stuff for rats, if you want you can made HgCl2 from that LD50 = 1 mg/kg ---> better then cyanide , safer and close this stupid topic

The WiZard is In - 9-9-2011 at 10:27

Quote: Originally posted by Neil  
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2079

If an evil terrorist was sneaking around looking for evil chemicals to put in our water they could hmm read the USA DOE data base or the text books in the sci madness library (You know the ones about war gasses?).



Science 1 July 2005:
Vol. 309 no. 5731 p. 31
DOI: 10.1126/science.309.5731.31b
•ScienceScope


PNAS Publishes Botulinum Paper
Jocelyn Kaiser

The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS)
this week published, unchanged, a hot-button paper modeling a
possible bioweapons attack. And federal officials aren't happy.

The study, led by Stanford mathematician Lawrence Wein,
models a terrorist attack on the U.S. milk supply using
botulinum toxin and discusses possible preventive measures.
PNAS released the paper 25 May to reporters under embargo
but delayed publishing it after Department of Health and
Human Services (HHS) official Stewart Simonson suggested
that the information could aid terrorists and asked NAS
President Bruce Alberts to hold off (Science, 3 June, p. 1395).

The paper is being published with only copy editing changes,
writes Alberts in an editorial accompanying an online version of
the paper. Data useful to a terrorist—such as the lethal dose of
botulinum toxin to humans—are available on the Internet, he
says, and the modeling “can be valuable for biodefense.”

“While I respect the academy's decision, I do not agree with it,”
HHS's Simonson told Science. “If the academy is wrong, the
consequences will be serious, and it will be HHS—not the
academy—that will have to deal with them.”

The WiZard is In - 9-9-2011 at 10:51

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
I Note, "Sugar of Lead" was for many centuries employed as a sugar substitute.


Mostly in Plumbed wine.

I The Analogue Guy shelve :—

Richard P Wedeen M.D., F.A.C.P.
Poison in the Pot : The Legacy of Lead
Chaper one. Plumbed Wine P. 11-73

AJKOER - 9-9-2011 at 15:53

Although this is all hypothetical, on researching NCl3 some important stuff (or lack thereof):

First, as usual, my educated guess is better than all the noise from my erudite colleagues. To quote "The main use of NCl3 is as a dilute gas to bleach flour." Source, please see Section H on Nitrogen halides at the following link:
http://mattson.creighton.edu/InorganicChemWeb/InorganicWorks...

So my conjecture to generate and only employ NCl3 vapors (more correctly as a dilute gas) is apparently an effective and workable scheme, but still I would implemented with extreme care in very low quantities.

On the toxic aspects of NCl3:
According to Spencer and Schaumburg’s Experiemental and Clinical Neurotoxicology (Second Edition), NCl3 had been used to bleach flour since the early twentieth century. It produces a condition in dogs called canine hysteria, fright disease, or running fits, where: “Affected dogs suddenly appear frightened with wild, unnatural facial expressions. The dogs are frequently seen to run about in an uncontrolled manner, eventually becoming exhausted and depressed.” However, the authors go on to note that “Humans . . . are resistant to the toxic effects of nitrogen trichloride-treated flour”.

From Dictionary.com:
"a pungent volatile explosive yellow oil NCl 3 that was formerly used in bleaching and aging flour but was discontinued because of deleterious effects (as epilepsy) produced in laboratory animals fed on bread made from the bleached flour"

At: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=61502&page=72
"in the 1930's and 1940's NCl3 was used to bleach flour. Some pet food manufactures continued bleaching flour with NCl3. However, the practice has stopped because chloramines are linked to mental disorders such as alzheimers." This site also discusses the explosive aspects of the compound.

From http://www.chacha.com/question/what-is-ncl3
"Ncl3 is nitrogen trichloride, a yellow pungent volatile oil (trade name Agene) formerly used for bleaching and aging flour. ChaCha" ChaCha apparently feels that ability of NCl3 to bleach and age flour is the only important comment.

But then there is Wkipedia that only adds "In pure form, NCl3 is highly reactive."

I suspect that the other dangerous aspects of NCl3 have been either censored, or ignored as it has been industrially employed in a dilute gaseous form only. In my opinion, some internet information sources appear to be of dangerously poor quality.

The WiZard is In - 9-9-2011 at 16:07

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  


I suspect that the other dangerous aspects of NCl3 have been either censored, or ignored as it has been industrially employed in a dilute gaseous form only. In my opinion, some internet information sources appear to be of dangerously poor quality.


I suspect that the other dangerous aspects of NCl3 have been
either censored, or ignored.

Hardly.


Nitrogen chloride is considered to be one of the most dangerous bodies to
handle, owing to the facility with which it explodes, by shock, friction, or contact
with various bodies.

M. Berthelot 1892


Nitrogen trichloride was discovered by my good friend, physician and professor
of physics at the École Polytechnique Pierre Louis Dulong. I first meet him at
Berthollet's home at Arcueil just south of Paris, where Berthollet had settled
following his return from Napoleon's abortive Egyptian campaign. All the greats
meet their; Berthollet's neighbour Laplace, Arago, Bérand, Biot, Amédée
Berthollet (Claude's son), Chaptal, Collet-Desostils, de Candolle, Gay-Lussac,
Humboldt, Malus, Poisson and Thernard. Napoleon showed his approval of our
meetings by allowing the use of the title "Société d'Arcueil" for our gatherings.

Pierre D. first published notice of his discovery in Schweigger's J. Chem. Pharm.
8, 32 (1812). Shortly there after he lost and eye and three fingers when a sample
exploded in his laboratory!! Indeed, our mutual friend Humphry Davy was also
severely injured although happily not maimed by an unexpected explosion of a
small quantity of Pierre's "une nouvelle substance detonnante". [Later Gay-
Lussac and Thernard suffered from inhaling hydrogen fluoride fumes.]

"The preparation and handling of this compound requires the greatest care.
Every vessel employed must be washed by alkalye in order to free it from
grease; even grease from the fingers may cause an explosion. The substance
[yellow oily liquid] is very liable to spontaneous explosion, and thick gloves, and a
face shield are indispensable." It is also possible to cause it to explode by
exposure to strong sun light or the light of a magnesium flame!

Small amounts of nitrogen trichloride can be created during the production of
chlorine:

3.4 Other Nitrogen Trichloride Incidents

1949, February 4 and 6.
Croton Lake Gate House, New York City Water
Supply.

The official report is as follows: "A ton container (No. 3058) which had been
shipped from Syracuse on multi-unit car SPX 8501, was reported leaking by the
foreman of Croton Lake Gate House. The container, which had been placed in
vertical storage, was placed under vacuum hood, and the water injector was
apparently carrying off the fumes satisfactorily.

Solvay arranged to get our Chlorine Emergency Kit from South Kearny, New
Jersey. Mr. Weil arrived on Thursday morning, February 5th, and proceeded to
investigate. The hood was raised and after removing the valve hat, it was found
the leak was through the threads at the base of the valve. It was apparent that
erosion and progressed too far to permit stopping the leak by tightening the
valve. Accordingly the capping device from the emergency kit was applied and
the leak stopped.

A temporary line was connected from the container to the chlorine gas manifold
in the adjacent chlorinator room. An experimental Wallace & Tiernan chlorinator
was operating from the chlorine manifold at a rate of 2040 pounds (approximately
1/3 capacity), equivalent to a feed of 170 lb. of chlorine in two hours. Five other
vertical ton containers on individual scales were also connected to the manifold,
but all were shut off when No. 3058 was opened to the line.

A water shower (38o) was applied with sufficient flow to prevent ice forming on
the outside of the container. However, this did not provide sufficient flow of gas,
and so container in No. 3 position was opened sufficiently to maintain 8 to 10
pounds pressure at the chlorinator.

Various readings were recorded at two hour intervals to establish the amount of
chlorine removed from No. 3058. It was planned to continue use of the chlorine
by this method until the container was empty.

On February 6 the container, apparently empty, was turned off at 9:00 P.M. and
exploded at 9:40 with a report heard across the lake.

Ton container No. 3058 had ruptured the side wall nearly all around the
circumference near the chime opposite the valve end. A roughly oval section
about 18" x 11" blew out nearly completely. The container fell over and rested
with the base only about two feet from the center of the original position.

The upper part of a 12-inch diameter cast iron wheel was broken from the ton
container carrying rig which was standing nearby, and the two broken pieces
were found respectively about 24 ft. and 29 ft. away. A step ladder was crushed,
and the floor and adjacent brick wall were splashed with a reddish-brown
substance apparently iron chloride. Two upright pegs (about 8" length of 3/4"
pipe) from the small skid on which the container had been standing were torn off
and found about 18 ft. away in one direction and about 20 ft. in the opposite
direction. The water shower rig was lying nearby apparently undamaged.

The emergency device No. 3 had jarred loose but remained inside the chime.
The chlorine line was still attached, with the valve on the container wide open but
with the valve at the manifold closed and no chlorine leaking into the container
from that source.


The West American scientist Official Organ of the San Diego Society of Natural History
By Charles Russell Orcutt
1888

MARTYRS OF SCIENCE.
The scientific investigator, and notably the experimenting chemist, incurs dangers
that would be likely to appall the most valiant fighters, and he meets them calmly
and deliberately, not in hot blood and excitement. Familiarity with danger breeds
recklessness, if not contempt, and the chemist will coolly taste with the tip of his
tongue any unknown liquid that may be handed to him. Prussic acid is about the only
thing he will not put into his mouth, but he can recognize that without tasting it. He
will make all sorts of chemical combinations, and try them to see if they are explosive
or otherwise dangerous, and sometimes he discovers in a very unpleasant way that
his new product is loaded. Dulong, in 1811 discovered chloride of nitrogen, and when
he recovered consciousness, amid the wreck of all the glassware in his laboratory, he
made a note with his unwounded hand, of the fact that chloride of nitrogen is highly
explosive. About a year afterward, in trying to ascertain the exact conditions
necessary to explode the compound, he lost an eye and two fingers. Davy, in the
same year, had a similar adventure with the new explosive. A tube containing a small
quantity was suddenly shivered to atoms without any apparent cause, and a piece of
the glass struck Davy in the corner of the right eye, disabling him from further
immediate experiments. In July, 1813, Davy set about finding out what was the
matter with chloride of nitrogen, and attempted an analysis by mercury. The stuff
went off again as usual, but Davy had protected his eyes with a thick plate of glass,
and he was wounded only in the head and hands. Faraday was an assistant to Davy
at this time. He was holding a srmll tube containing a few grains of the chloride
between his thumb and finger, when a sudden and wholly unprovoked explosion
occurred, stunning him and badly tearing his hand.

Panache - 9-9-2011 at 21:15

Just buy shitloads of botox syringes (tell the pharmacist you're really worried at the moment and the worry over the possible worry lines worries you further) then mix it up with anything yellow and make it cubes, punch some holes in the cubes, it now looks like cheese and rats are sure to eat it.
Next find the rat house, its the hole in the wall on floor level with a little door attached to it, place the cubes next to it and make a sign that says 'free cheese'.
However if you're rats don't speak english your plan is shot and you'll have to think of something else, perhaps offer free english language classes. You'll know when the rats have learnt enough as they'll stop coming to class.
Hope this helps.

blogfast25 - 10-9-2011 at 04:53

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
First, as usual, my educated guess is better than all the noise from my erudite colleagues.


As far as I'm concerned you're the weirdo here (who makes a lot of noise), not your 'erudite colleagues'.

For once, try a little elementary experimentation, report it here and do something that's not way above your paygrade, like the basically impossible schemes you come up with that make those here who actually know something go 'yaaawwn'... Seriously.

AJKOER - 10-9-2011 at 12:00

Blogfast25:

In the future expect an announcement that may unfortunately exceed my paygrade.

But on the flour treatment, there is little purpose as my granddaughter loves the neighbor's cats and we are otherwise short on rodents. However, we do have visits from a young raccoon and a big skunk. But possibly driving a skunk crazy doesn't sound like a good idea.

Does it smell right to you?

Also legally here, we can hire a professional to poison rats, but the raccoon (and his associates) are on a catch and release policy. However, as the bleached flour is not a toxin to humans, I suspect it is not technically classified as a poison. Why? Because chocolate in sufficient quantity is lethal to dogs. It has something to do with there inability to metabolize theobromine, present in chocolate, rapidly. So as long as placing chocolate treats outside is not considered dispensing a poison, I think legally we are OK (at least until your neighbor sues you for what you did to his dog and/or his pet rodent).

Neil - 10-9-2011 at 16:54


Dogs do not react to poison ivy so if I rub it all over someones door knob it must not count... no awww...

Dispensing something that is toxic is dispensing something that is toxic. BTW Cheers! If law enforcement is trolling these waters you just flagged your self as a wannabe dog killer who is advising people to make a highly explosive and unstable poison :o

As per your references the last of the flour bleached with the Nitrogen trichloride was used for PET FOODS...


Tiny amounts of NCl3 vapors over long periods of time?
http://www.ersj.org.uk/content/29/4/690.abstract

In depth studies?
http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol84/mono84-8.pdf


Humans magically not affected? nope. Smaller animals having a lower body mass hence a easier to hit toxic threshold? yup.


You making it big? is this on the salty iron paint, the ferrates, the ammonia aluminate or suggesting that every problem can be solved with vinegar and bleach? As long as you continue to flagrantly reject reality, the chances of anything useful coming out of your research is zip.

You can not fight ignorance with logic.

Neil - 10-9-2011 at 16:55

Quote: Originally posted by Panache  
Just buy shitloads of botox syringes (tell the pharmacist you're really worried at the moment and the worry over the possible worry lines worries you further) then mix it up with anything yellow and make it cubes, punch some holes in the cubes, it now looks like cheese and rats are sure to eat it.
Next find the rat house, its the hole in the wall on floor level with a little door attached to it, place the cubes next to it and make a sign that says 'free cheese'.
However if you're rats don't speak english your plan is shot and you'll have to think of something else, perhaps offer free english language classes. You'll know when the rats have learnt enough as they'll stop coming to class.
Hope this helps.





:D I like it.

AJKOER - 10-9-2011 at 21:04

Actually Neil I have an educational reference on how theoretically one can work with unstable compounds (like NCl3) and why their hold promise for new compounds.

I warn you that the material is at a high level directed towards professionals. You may find the author's comments on working with dilute aqueous solutions of NCl3 in CCl4 (under 12%) and Chloroform (under 18%) interesting.

However, there is a need for high level of professionalism and to work safety with small quantities (especially note the authors comment that many reactions described are too dangerous to be performed). I also conceive that this level of professionals may be lacking here so I am not posting the source, but you may request it by sending me an email at AJKOER@YAHOO.COM.

AJKOER - 10-9-2011 at 22:16

OK, for the record I love dogs although my granddaughter has a preference for cats.

Neil and Blogfast25, I also love your dogs and would never think of mailing them any chocolates.

On Chloramines, I saw a recent European study on the dangers of using chlorine based bathroom cleaners and I since ban their use in my house. I would also consider protesting the use of chlorine based chemicals in public pools. Privately, you can swim in anything you want. As a matter of disclosure, I have an Italian step brother (no blood relation), who many years ago decided to stick his feet in waters near Livorno, Italy (very polluted). Today he has but one leg to insert into the waters of his choice (thanks to cancer).

Chordate - 10-9-2011 at 23:36

Botox syringes sounds great, but you'd have a heck of a time isolating the stuff from the binders and buffers in any sort of quantity. Far easier would be to make some sort of stable binary chemical weapon, like the Methylphosphonyl difluoride/ isopropyl alcohol system. All you would need is the not so difficult to obtain phosphorous, chlorine, iodine, methanol, fluoride salt, and isopropyl alcohol. Then you could use some sort of motion activated triggering mechanism to bring the two phases together generating sarin gas on the spot.

Perhaps a rat trap would be the perfect delivery mechanism for this system! A tiny ampule of each phase on the jaws of the trap, and a tiny dab of peanut butter as bait!

(edit, forgot the chlorine!)

[Edited on 11-9-2011 by Chordate]

Neil - 11-9-2011 at 04:30

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16203

:o

I have an educational reference that the sun is cold and dark... I'm going to make a fortune telling people why solar cells should face away from the sun.

doctorofmind - 20-9-2011 at 00:45

Come on people ! Who has time for this NCl3 shit?? I really dont want to mess up with that it is toxic pungent gas. BaCO3 is not toxic enough even if used as rat poison...I wanted to use a potent toxin as cyanide. The problem is that it is very alkaline and tastes horrible. I dont know what to tell about HgCl2..the LD50 listed for rats is a bit exaggerated (1mg/kg) so I dont really think I can kill 10 rats with 10 mg. However, HgCl2 might be more convenient than cyanide. Perhaps you should use a specially formulated bait, like KCN crystals included in a mass (one crystal should kill a rat after it enters it's mouth). Sodium azide might also be a good idea because it lack that nasty smell of cyanide and might also have less horrible taste. Anyway, I bought some bromadiolone baits from a shop for only 2 dollars and they did the job for perfectly. Dont need to use toxic chemicals like mercury salts, cyanide or azide ;)

TOPIC CLOSED. Thx

The WiZard is In - 20-9-2011 at 07:18

Quote: Originally posted by doctorofmind  
Come on people ! Who has time for this NCl3 shit?? I really dont want to mess up with that it is toxic pungent gas. BaCO3 is not toxic enough even if used as rat poison...I wanted to use a potent toxin as cyanide. The problem is that it is very alkaline and tastes horrible. I dont know what to tell about HgCl2..the LD50 listed for rats is a bit exaggerated (1mg/kg) so I dont really think I can kill 10 rats with 10 mg. However, HgCl2 might be more convenient than cyanide. Perhaps you should use a specially formulated bait, like KCN crystals included in a mass (one crystal should kill a rat after it enters it's mouth). Sodium azide might also be a good idea because it lack that nasty smell of cyanide and might also have less horrible taste. Anyway, I bought some bromadiolone baits from a shop for only 2 dollars and they did the job for perfectly. Dont need to use toxic chemicals like mercury salts, cyanide or azide ;)

TOPIC CLOSED. Thx


This is what we use OTC in La US of A


Monograph Number: 0003133
Title: Difenacoum
CAS Registry Number: 56073-07-5
CAS Name: 3-(3-[1,1¢-Biphenyl]-4-yl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-1-naphthalenyl)-4-hydroxy-2H-1-benzopyran-2-one
Additional Names: 3-[3-(biphenyl-4-yl)-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-1-naphthyl]-4-hydroxycoumarin; 3-(3-p-biphenyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydronaphth-1-yl)-4-hydroxycoumarin
Trademarks: Neosorexa (Sorex); Ratak (Sorex)
Molecular Formula: C31H24O3
Molecular Weight: 444.52
Percent Composition: C 83.76%, H 5.44%, O 10.80%
Literature References: Second generation anticoagulant rodenticide. Prepn: M. R. Hadler, R. S. Shadbolt, DE 2424806; idem, US 3957824 (1975, 1976 both to Ward Blenkinsop); R. S. Shadbolt et al., J. Chem. Soc. Perkin Trans. 1 1976, 1190. Comprehensive description: J. O. Bull, Proc. Vertebr. Pest Conf. 7, 72 (1976). HPLC determn of rat blood and liver: M. J. Kelly et al., J. Chromatogr. 620, 105 (1993); of residue levels in rats: H. Atterby et al., Environ. Toxicol. Chem. 24, 318 (2005). Field and laboratory studies against the house mouse: F. P. Rowe et al., J. Hyg. Camb. 87, 171 (1981). Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics in rabbits: A. M. Breckenridge et al., Br. J. Pharmacol. 84, 81 (1985). Pharmacological variation between rodent sexes: M. J. Winn et al., J. Pharm. Pharmacol. 39, 219 (1987).
Properties: Crystals from ethyl acetate, mp 215-217°. LD50 orally in Wistar male, female rats (mg/kg): 1.8, 2.5; in male rabbits: 2.0 mg/kg; in dogs: 50 mg/kg; in cats: 100 mg/kg (Bull).
Melting point: mp 215-217°
Toxicity data: LD50 orally in Wistar male, female rats (mg/kg): 1.8, 2.5; in male rabbits: 2.0 mg/kg; in dogs: 50 mg/kg; in cats: 100 mg/kg
Use: Pesticide.

Monograph Number: 0001379
Title: Brodifacoum
CAS Registry Number: 56073-10-0
CAS Name: 3-[3-(4¢-Bromo[1,1¢-biphenyl]-4-yl)-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-1-naphthalenyl]-4-hydroxy-2H-1-benzopyran-2-one
Additional Names: 3-[3-(4¢-bromobiphenyl-4-yl)-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-1-naphthyl]-4-hydroxycoumarin
Manufacturers' Codes: PP-581; WBA-8119
Trademarks: Talon (Zeneca Ag Prod)
Molecular Formula: C31H23BrO3
Molecular Weight: 523.42
Percent Composition: C 71.13%, H 4.43%, Br 15.27%, O 9.17%
Literature References: Coumarin analog. Prepn: M. R. Hadler, R. S. Shadbolt, DE 2424806; eidem, US 3957824 (1975, 1976 to Ward, Blenkinsop & Co.); eidem; J. Chem. Soc. Perkin Trans. 1 1976, 1190. Anticoagulant activity: M. R. Hadler, R. S. Shadbolt, Nature 253, 275 (1975). Field trials: B. D. Rennison, A. C. Dubock, J. Hyg. 80, 77 (1978); F. P. Rowe et al., ibid. 81, 197 (1978). Efficacy and toxicity: L. Yuet-Ming, Malays. Agric. J. 52, 1 (1980).
Properties: Off-white powder, mp 228-230°. Insol in water. Slightly sol in alc, benzene; sol in acetone, chloroform. LD50 orally in male, female field rats: 0.16, 0.18 mg/kg (Yuet-Ming).
Melting point: mp 228-230°
Toxicity data: LD50 orally in male, female field rats: 0.16, 0.18 mg/kg (Yuet-Ming)
Use: Rodenticide.

Monograph Number: 0001382
Title: Bromadiolone
CAS Registry Number: 28772-56-7
CAS Name: 3-[3-(4¢-Bromo[1,1¢-biphenyl]-4-yl)-3-hydroxy-1-phenylpropyl]-4-hydroxy-2H-1-benzopyran-2-one
Additional Names: 3-[a-[p-(p-bromophenyl)-b-hydroxyphenethyl]benzyl]-4-hydroxycoumarin
Manufacturers' Codes: LM-637
Trademarks: Maki (Lipha); Bromone (Lipha); Super-Caid (Lipha); Super-Rozol (Lipha)
Molecular Formula: C30H23BrO4
Molecular Weight: 527.41
Percent Composition: C 68.32%, H 4.40%, Br 15.15%, O 12.13%
Literature References: Anticoagulant rodenticide. Prepn: E. Boschetti et al., DE 1959317; eidem, US 3764693 (1970, 1973 both to Lipha). Activity studies: eidem, Chim. Ther. 7, 20 (1972); M. Grand, Phytiatr.-Phytopharm. 25, 69 (1976); R. E. Marsh, Bull. OEPP 7, 495 (1977); R. Redfern, J. E. Gill, J. Hyg. 84, 263 (1980). Pharmacokinetics: K. Nahas, Pharmacol. Res. Commun. 19, 767 (1987). HPLC determn of diastereoisomers in animal tissues: K. Hunter et al., J. Chromatogr. 435, 83 (1988).
Properties: White to offwhite powder, mp 200-210°. uv max (ethanol): 260 nm (E1%1cm 538-582). pKa (21°) 4.04. Soly at 20-25° (g/l): dimethylformamide 730.0; ethyl acetate 25.0; acetone 22.3; chloroform 10.1; ethanol 8.2; methanol 5.6; ethyl ether 3.7; hexane 0.2; water 0.019. LD50 in rats, mice (mg/kg): 1.125, 1.75 orally (Grand).
Melting point: mp 200-210°
pKa: pKa (21°) 4.04
Absorption maximum: uv max (ethanol): 260 nm (E1%1cm 538-582)
Toxicity data: LD50 in rats, mice (mg/kg): 1.125, 1.75 orally (Grand)
Use: Rodenticide.

Monograph Number: 0003139
Title: Difethialone
CAS Registry Number: 104653-34-1
CAS Name: 3-[3-(4¢-Bromo[1,1¢-biphenyl]-4-yl)-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-1-naphthalenyl]-4-hydroxy-2H-1-benzothiopyran-2-one
Manufacturers' Codes: LM-2219
Trademarks: Generation (LiphaTech); Hombre (LiphaTech)
Molecular Formula: C31H23BrO2S
Molecular Weight: 539.48
Percent Composition: C 69.02%, H 4.30%, Br 14.81%, O 5.93%, S 5.94%
Literature References: Second generation anticoagulant rodenticide; member of the hydroxy-4-benzothiopyranone family. Prepn: J.-J. Berthelon, FR 2562893; idem, US 4585786 (1985, 1986 both to Lipha). HPLC determn of residue levels in rats: D. A. Goldade et al., J. Agric. Food Chem. 46, 504 (1998). Use against warfarin-resistant rodents: K. Nahas et al., Anal. Rech. Vét. 20, 159 (1989). Toxicity in rodents and non-target species: J. C. Lechevin, R. M. Poche, Proc. Vetebr. Pest Conf. 13, 59 (1988); S. Moran, Crop Prot. 12, 501 (1993). Laboratory and field studies: C. Sheikher, P. Sood, Indian J. Agric. Sci. 70, 312 (2000). Use in conjunction with compounds to improve bait acceptance: H. Kaur, V. R. Parshad, Int. Pest Control 46, 88 (2004).
Properties: Prepd as a variable proportion of the (1RS,3RS) and (1RS,3SR) racemates, mp 203-227°. LD50 orally in male, female rats, mice (mg/kg): 0.62, 0.42, 0.52, 0.43 (non-resistant); 0.27, 0.39, 0.46, 0.52 (warfarin resistant). LD50 in hare: 0.75 mg/kg. LC50 in mallard duck, bobwhite quail (ppm): 1.94, 0.56. LD50 at 48 hrs in daphnia magna, bluegill sunfish, rainbow trout (mg/l): 4.4, 110, 67 (Lechevin).
Melting point: mp 203-227°
Toxicity data: LD50 orally in male, female rats, mice (mg/kg): 0.62, 0.42, 0.52, 0.43 (non-resistant); 0.27, 0.39, 0.46, 0.52 (warfarin resistant); LD50 in hare: 0.75 mg/kg; LC50 in mallard duck, bobwhite quail (ppm): 1.94, 0.56; LD50 at 48 hrs in daphnia magna, bluegill sunfish, rainbow trout (mg/l): 4.4, 110, 67 (Lechevin)
Use: Pesticide.