Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Australian man charged for posessing "Explosive Materials"

Australian man charged for posessing "Explosive Materials"

trezza - 26-7-2011 at 21:43

Recently in the town of Castlemaine, Victoria, Australia a man was arrested for posession of explosive substances, he was handed a total of 6 charges. Here is the report...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/heavily-armed-pol...

Apparently he was traced through eBay buying suspicious chemicals, I read in the newspaper that they included "Potassium nitrate, potassium chloride, magnesium powder, sulfur and charcoal." They said he was capable of making up to 5kg of "Explosives" in a matter of 15 minutes and spent $17000 on the items...

So how are we to believe this man paid $17000 for basic chemicals, which he was obviously using for homemade pyrotechnics. These wouldn't go further than basic oxidisers and fuels, maybe some equipment for an electrolytic cell.

Also, look at the fuss the police made over a little black powder, it probably wasn't even mixed, I'll bet the precursors were in separate bags too. Australia is becoming more and more of a nanny state by the day and there's nothing we can do about it. All I know is I'm going to continue my pursuits in chemistry, whether or not it has to do with energetics and if I end up in a courtroom I WILL state that it is a passion of mine, and I won't have my freedom to enjoy natures gift of chemicals and their unique properties taken away, and that I intend to continue doing it, and that they had better lock me up and throw away the key if they think I'm such a burden on the entire human race. Let's see what the news says about that.

I hope this man is released with no more than a slap on the wrist. I find it SICKENING that they control us in this way, realistically, table salt is equivalent to potassium nitrate, they both have distinguishing properties, we use salt for flavouring our food, for our enjoyment but too much of it can cause health problems, so why should it be any different to, for example, make a small rocket engine and shoot it into the sky for your own enjoyment, it too holds a risk but I can think of a lot more everyday, unrestricted things that could do much more damage to a human in the long run.

My 2c

[Edited on 27-7-2011 by trezza]

hkparker - 26-7-2011 at 23:02

Quote: Originally posted by trezza

Apparently he was traced through eBay buying suspicious chemicals

Well there goes my hope for Australia. Qualifies as a police state to me when they track your ebay orders.

Some of the things he ordered did sound a bit off like a manual on grenade launchers, but nothing to warrent an arrest!

jon - 4-8-2011 at 01:03

Quote:

if I end up in a courtroom I WILL state that it is a passion of mine, and I won't have my freedom to enjoy natures gift of chemicals and their unique properties taken away, and that I intend to continue doing it, and that they had better lock me up and throw away the key if they think I'm such a burden on the entire human race. Let's see what the news says about that

unfortunately you would'nt be able to say that until your sentancing hearing.
if you tried to speak up prior to that you would likely be held in contempt.
there are few exceptions to that as in pro-se defence or if you choose to testify.
however, likely if you testified you would be asked leading questions geared towards self incrimination which under oath you would be obligded to answer.
now you see why judges are so arrogant?

[Edited on 4-8-2011 by jon]

trezza - 4-8-2011 at 05:35

I know, I would prefer to go down as a raving lunatic anyway.

jon - 4-8-2011 at 06:47

they would'nt buy the lunatic defence, they rarely do.
god may forgive, the man won't.
it does'nt matter if your going down, your going down either way, not a lot you can do about that.
no need to kiss the judge's ass in that event.
i seen people trying to act respectful towards the jugde as if they thought a jugde would show sympathy, in fact they won't.
it's thier job to put people in prison and that's it.

Fusionfire - 4-8-2011 at 16:30

Quote: Originally posted by trezza

Also, look at the fuss the police made over a little black powder, it probably wasn't even mixed, I'll bet the precursors were in separate bags too. Australia is becoming more and more of a nanny state by the day and there's nothing we can do about it. All I know is I'm going to continue my pursuits in chemistry, whether or not it has to do with energetics and if I end up in a courtroom I WILL state that it is a passion of mine, and I won't have my freedom to enjoy natures gift of chemicals and their unique properties taken away, and that I intend to continue doing it, and that they had better lock me up and throw away the key if they think I'm such a burden on the entire human race. Let's see what the news says about that.

Good for you. Too many sheep these days just swallow the whole fear-mongering propaganda, cower in fear and ask the government to "protect" them, i.e. hand over more power to our overlords.

Quote:

I hope this man is released with no more than a slap on the wrist. I find it SICKENING that they control us in this way, realistically, table salt is equivalent to potassium nitrate, they both have distinguishing properties, we use salt for flavouring our food, for our enjoyment but too much of it can cause health problems, so why should it be any different to, for example, make a small rocket engine and shoot it into the sky for your own enjoyment, it too holds a risk but I can think of a lot more everyday, unrestricted things that could do much more damage to a human in the long run.

Obesity and driving are all rather lethal conditions, the government should go ban those too

trezza - 4-8-2011 at 20:39

OH! I've got a great idea, ban all utensils like knives and forks from being used at home so that everyone has to go out and buy pre-made food every night, and then they can slap a giant food tax on it so that they can afford to find more ways of controlling us.

[Edited on 5-8-2011 by trezza]

Phthalic Acid - 11-8-2011 at 04:02

Wow I didn't realise how bad things were over here! So even if a substance isn't illegal, if you have it in conjunction with other substances that MAY be used to make something explosive, that's enough to warrant an arrest? So, they could arrest someone for having H2O2 in their medicine cabinet and some Acetone in the shed?

That's complete BS as far as I'm concerned... It's like arresting someone for having a knife in the kitchen and the knowledge that it can be used to kill someone. Intent to murder they could call it... How sad when the building blocks of the universe can't even be played with without Daddy watching...

hissingnoise - 11-8-2011 at 05:49

Quote:

Wow I didn't realise how bad things were over here!

Penal colony mentality still alive and kicking in high places?

Phthalic Acid - 11-8-2011 at 06:34

Well in my defence, I did just move here (although, from NZ which I guess isn't much of a difference...)

hissingnoise - 11-8-2011 at 08:25

Quote:

Well in my defence, I did just move here.

Ah, so they've dropped the criminal record prerequisite?

NHZ - 11-8-2011 at 11:27

Pardon me for playing devils advocate here, but $17,000 for a hobby does seem like overkill... Experimentation
is one thing, but that's got to be a lot of stuff.. My question is, does eBay allow the sale of these chemicals, then
turn over the people who buy it?

Where I live, firecrackers are illegal, I simply stay away from it, and watch others do it on youtube

Edit:

Found another article, seems some of what they found in this guys
home was questionable to say the least.

"John Kelleher said he had uncovered ''military devices - switches for booby traps, which appear to be collector's items''.

He also found detonators, firing mechanisms, a large quantity of chemicals to make explosives, ammunition, railway warning explosives and an ''anti-personnel device''.

Pipe bombs were also included in the stockpile.

Marsh, who has a fascination with explosives and railways, has said that all he wanted to do was make firecrackers and meant nobody any harm.

''The two pipe-bombs, there is no way I would call them firecrackers, they were pipe bombs,'' Mr Kelleher said."

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/court-hears-of-bomb-cache-...

[Edited on 11-8-2011 by NHZ]

trezza - 13-8-2011 at 03:07

Still it sounds like he was only playing with oxidizers, His pipe bombs were probably filled with some black powder, how much damage can those things actually do? I doubt it would put the nearby schools at risk, it's not like he had 5KG of PETN or something, even then I think only things within 50m would be in danger. I'm just assuming it was only oxidizers like KNO3 because they never mentioned "High Explosives", only "Explosives"

[Edited on 13-8-2011 by trezza]

[Edited on 13-8-2011 by trezza]

franklyn - 13-8-2011 at 07:30

" Today, online auction site eBay would not say whether it had tipped off law enforcers,
but confirmed it worked closely with police in monitoring bomb shopping suspects.
Spokesman Daniel Filer says the company monitors activities of its buyers and sellers
and can detect when someone is buying items needed to make a bomb."

Presumably Ebay was subject to an official request beforehand.
It's rather troubling if it forwards " suspicious purchase " info on
it's own initiative.

Google has been criticized for collaborating with the Chinese government
to censor access to content earmarked by them.

.

KemiRockarFett - 13-8-2011 at 07:35

In EU its not just chemical tracking and regulation thats targeted, now its also information about energetic materials:

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/malmstrom/archive/C...

"This means that, once the Framework Decision will be transposed in all Member States, it will be possible to prosecute and punish people who try to involve others in terrorist activity by encouraging them to commit terrorist acts, by trying to enlist them in their terrorist networks, or by providing them with the information they need to commit their attacks, such as bombmaking recipes. With the adoption of this amendment, these forms of criminal behaviour will become punishable throughout the EU, also when they are committed using the internet. This is an important step which aligns EU legislation with the Council of Europe Convention on
the prevention of terrorism of May 2005, on which the new provisions were modelled.
The Commission also seeks to promote a public/private partnership approach for countering terrorist use of the internet10. It has started a dialogue between law enforcement authorities and service providers in order to reduce the dissemination of illegal terrorism-related content
on the internet. A European Agreement Model to facilitate public/private cooperation on the issue is under development."

I think that some parts of this forum, as the energetic part, will become unlegal due to this. Hope I am wrong.

trezza - 13-8-2011 at 10:20

So in other words, according to them, being on this page makes it ok for a person to be put in jail!

Viewing that makes me evil! Be afraid society!!!

KemiRockarFett - 13-8-2011 at 11:14

Quote: Originally posted by trezza

So in other words, according to them, being on this page makes it ok for a person to be put in jail!

Viewing that makes me evil! Be afraid society!!!

'
Sir yes sir ! As I understood the EU document the energetic part have information that could be used for terrorism and therefore supplying such information is or will be a crime. (This maybee should be addressed as a new thread due to its importance for the future of this forum,, admin?)

Big Brother state

NHZ - 13-8-2011 at 22:52

Quote: Originally posted by trezza

Still it sounds like he was only playing with oxidizers, His pipe bombs were probably filled with some black powder, how much damage can those things actually do? I doubt it would put the nearby schools at risk, it's not like he had 5KG of PETN or something, even then I think only things within 50m would be in danger. I'm just assuming it was only oxidizers like KNO3 because they never mentioned "High Explosives", only "Explosives"

Im not so sure it would have been the majority of oxidizers given what they say he had..
It was stated that he had enough for 5Kg of end product and 17,000 in purchases. Must have been something exotic at that
price or really large amounts...

Ive seen KNO3 for 20$ per LB, that would translate into
850lbs. If it was KCL03, i've seen it selling for 6$ per oz
that's 2833oz or 177lbs.. I think such an amount would have been mentioned given the potential..

So if the figure of 17,000. is correct, I cant begin to imagine what he had, but I would hope that people get flagged if it
was all related materials. It would an interesting twist of the facts if he bought a car, and a few oz of oxidizers

The amount I personally use of KCLO3 goes as far as an oz here and there. I cant think of any reason an 'experimenter'
would need hundreds of lbs.

Keep in mind i'm basing this on the information provided by
the media

Jianaran - 15-8-2011 at 02:07

More so than that... here in aus, one can by 25kg sacks of KNO3 from ag supply stores for $50. Spend one thousand, let along 17, could get you half a tonne; after that it's only down the imagination what you want to oxidise.
What seems more likely is that he was spending $200 on 1L of HNO3 from sigma or something similar.

Aiding and abetting

The WiZard is In - 15-8-2011 at 06:48

Some years ago I asked John Bennett who publishes
the magazine Fireworks in England why he didn't
publish How-to-do-it articles. He replied that in the
UK making your own firework was illegal, therefore supplying
information on how to make them would be adding and abetting a crime.

You could move to la US of A where freedom of information
is guaranteed by out constitution. And law enforcement is more
sane..... well .... there are exceptions from the norm. (Whatever
that is!)

Wall Street Journal July 23, 2011
As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared
http://tinyurl.com/As-Criminal-Laws-Proliferate

Occasionally, Americans are going to prison in the U.S. for
violating the laws and rules of other countries. Last year,
Abner Schoenwetter finished 69 months in federal prison for
conspiracy and smuggling. His conviction was related to
importing the wrong kinds of lobsters and bulk packaging
them in plastic, rather than separately in boxes, in violation
of Honduran laws.

According to court records and interviews, Mr. Schoenwetter
had been importing lobsters from Honduras since the mid-
1980s. In early 1999, federal officials seized a 70,000-pound
shipment after a tip that the load violated a Honduran statute
setting a minimum size on lobsters that could be caught.
Such a shipment, in turn, violated a U.S. law, the Lacey Act,
which makes it a felony to import fish or wildlife if it breaks
another country's laws. Roughly 2% of the seized shipment
was clearly undersized, and records indicated other
shipments carried much higher percentages, federal officials
said.

In an interview, Mr. Schoenwetter, 65 years old, said he and
other buyers routinely accepted a percentage of undersized
lobsters since the deliveries from the fishermen inevitably
included smaller ones. He also said he didn't believe bringing
in some undersized lobsters was illegal, noting that previous
shipments had routinely passed through U.S. Customs.
After conviction, Mr. Schoenwetter and three co-defendants
appealed, and the Honduran government filed a brief on
their behalf saying that Honduran courts had invalidated the
undersized-lobster law. By a two-to-one vote, however, a
federal appeals panel found the Honduran law valid at the
time of the trial and upheld the convictions.

The dissenting jurist, Judge Peter Fay, wrote: "I think we
would be shocked should the tables be reversed and a
foreign nation simply ignored one of our court rulings."
Robert Kern, a 62-year-old Virginia hunting-trip organizer,
was also prosecuted in the U.S. for allegedly breaking the
law of another country. Instead of lobsters from Honduras,
Mr. Kern's troubles stemmed from moose from Russia.

He faced a 2008 Lacey Act prosecution for allegedly
violating Russian law after some of his clients shot game
from a helicopter in that country. In the end, he was
acquitted after a Russian official testified the hunters had an
exemption from the helicopter hunting ban. Still, legal bills
totaling more than $860,000 essentially wiped out his
retirement savings, Mr. Kern says.

Justice Department officials declined to comment on
Messrs. Kern and Schoenwetter.

djh
----
ONE HUNDRED PER CENT AMERICAN
Ralph Linton
American Mercury Vol. XL 1937

There can be no question about the average American's Americanism or this
desire to preserve this precious heritage at all costs. Nevertheless, some
insidious foreign ideas have already wormed their way in to his civilization
without his realizing what was going on. The dawn finds the unsuspecting
patriot garbed in pajamas, a garment of East Indian origin; and lying in a bed
built on a pattern which originated in either Persia or Asia Minor. He is
muffled to the ears in un-American materials: cotton, first domesticated in
India; linen, domesticated in the Near East; wool from an animal native to Asia
Minor; or silk whose uses were first discovered by the Chinese. All these
substances have been transformed into cloth by methods invented in
Southwestern Asia. If the weather is cold enough he may even be sleeping
under an eiderdown quilt invented in Scandinavia.

On awakening he glances at the clock, a medieval European invention, uses one
potent Latin word in abbreviated form, rises in haste and goes to the bathroom.
Here, if he stops to think about it, he must feel himself in the presence of a
great American institution: he have heard stories of both the quality and
frequency of foreign plumbing and will know that in no other country does the
average man perform his ablutions in the midst of such splendor. But the
insidious foreign influence peruses him even here. Glass was invented by the
ancient Egyptians, the use of glazed tiles for floors and walls in the Near East,
porcelain in China, and the art of enameling on metal by Mediterranean
artisans of the Bronze Age. Even his bathtub and toilet are but slightly modified
copies of Roman originals. The only purely American contribution to the
ensemble in the steam radiator, against which our patriot very briefly and
unintentionally places his posterior.

In this bathroom the American washes with soap invented by the ancient
Gauls. Next he cleans his teeth, a subversive European practice which did not
invade America until the latter part of the eighteenth century. He then shaves,
a masochistic rite first developed by the heathen priests of ancient Egypt and
Sumer. The process is made less of a penance by the fact that his razor is of
steel, an iron-carbon alloy discovered either India or Turkestan. Lastly, he dries
himself on a Turkish towel.

Returning to the bedroom, the unconscious victim of un-American practices
removes his clothes from a chair, invented in the Near East, and proceeds to
dress. He puts on closefitting tailored garments whose form derives from the
skin clothing of ancient nomads of the Asiatic steppes and fastens them with
buttons whose prototypes appeared in Europe at the close of the Stone Age.
This costume in appropriate enough for the outdoor exercise in a cold climate,
but is quite unsuited to American Summers, steam-heated houses, and
Pullmans. Nevertheless, foreign ideas and habits hold the unfortunate man in
thrall even when common sense tells him that the authentically American
costume of gee string and moccasins would be far more comfortable. He puts
on his feet stiff coverings made from hide prepared by a process invented in
ancient Egypt and cut to a pattern which can be traced back to ancient Greece,
and makes sure they are properly polished, also a Greek idea. Lastly, he ties
about his neck a strip of bright-colored cloth which is a vestigial survival of the
shoulder shawls worn by seventeenth-century Croats. He gives himself a final
appraisal in the mirror, and old Mediterranean invention, and goes downstairs
to breakfast.

Were a whole new series of foreign things confronts him. His food and drink
are placed before him in pottery vessels, the popular name of which - china - is
sufficient evidence of their origin. His fork is a medieval Italian invention and
his spoon a copy of a Roman original. He will usually begin the meal with
coffee, an Abyssinian plant first discovered by the Arabs. The American in
quite likely to need it to dispel the morning-after effects of over-indulgence in
fermented drinks, invented in the Near East; or distilled ones, invented by the
alchemists of medieval Europe. Whereas the Arabs took their straight, he will
probable sweeten it with sugar, discovered in India; and dilute it with cream,
both the domestication of cattle and the technique of milking having originated
in Asia Minor.

If our patriot is old-fashioned enough to adhere to the so-called American
breakfast, his coffee will be accompanied by an orange, domesticated in the
Mediterranean region, a cantaloupe domesticated in Persia, or grapes,
domesticated in Asia Minor. He will follow this with a bowl of cereal made
from grain domesticated in the Near East and prepared by methods also
invented there. From this he will go on to waffles, a Scandinavian invention,
with plenty of butter, originally a Near-Eastern cosmetic. As a side dish he may
have the egg of a bird domesticated in Southeastern Asia or strips of the flesh of
an animal domesticated in the same region, which have been salted and smoked
by a process invented in Northern Europe.

Breakfast over, he places upon his head a moulded piece of felt, invented by the
nomads of Eastern Asia, and, if it looks like rain, puts on outer shoes of rubber,
discovered by the ancient Mexicans, and takes an umbrella, invented in India.
He then sprints for this train - the train, not the sprinting, being an English
invention. At the station he pauses for a moment to buy a newspaper, paying
for it with coins invented in ancient Lydia. Once aboard he settles back to
inhale the fumes of a cigarette invented in Mexico, or a Cigar invented in
Brazil. Meanwhile he reads the news of the day, imprinted in characters
invented by the ancient Semites by a process invented in Germany upon
material invented in China. As he scans the editorial pointing out the dire
results to our institutions of accepting foreign ideas, he will not fail to thank a
Hebrew God in an Indo-European language that he is one hundred per cent
(decimal system invented by the Greeks) American (from Americus Vespucci,
Italian geographer).

Roger86 - 18-8-2011 at 14:28

I'm unaware of australian law's but can anyone estimate on what is his sentance going to be?

IMO i think its insane to put a man to prison, even if he made a bomb, if he's not going to use it to harm other people.

As an intresting thing that happen in finland few weeks ago;

A man stabbed another one to death, he didnt get any criminal sentance because he was declared insane.But heres the sad part, he didnt get institutionalised either because he was considered to be 'healed from his mental disorder'.So in short terms, man was quilty of murder, but he didnt get any sentance at all.

And for anyone thinking im making this one up;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ior_Bock the article doesnt give out that the man was set free, but it can be googled

bdbstone - 9-9-2011 at 04:43

When I read the news all it seems was a lots and lots of media buffling. I mean.. BP as explosive? really...

The only thing that seems peculiar to me is:

Quote:

Among the items detected on eBay were 11 that could be used for explosions including black powder, potassium nitrate, sulphur, a relay time cord, an automatic electrical trigger, anti-personnel mines, potassium chlorite and magnesium powder , the court was told.

So my guess is he bought some "interesting" items over(the ones that media doesn't show you) enough to get police intention. When he bought the manual for building grenade launcher and probably some parts for it, it was enough to get the police intention and bust him. I mean surelly he wouldn't spend 17,000$ for some saltpeper and some sulphur, lol, he would get TONS of it, not kilograms..

But its obvious the guy didn't mean to cause any harm, I don't doubt that, but this is how 'system' works..

[Edited on 9-9-2011 by bdbstone]

"Cold Pack" redux

The WiZard is In - 12-9-2011 at 15:10

Spiegel Online
http://tinyurl.com/3hxaevx
09/08/2011
Suspicious Chemicals
Two Terror Suspects Arrested in Berlin

Police in Berlin arrested two terror suspects on Thursday,
raiding their apartments and a Muslim cultural center. The two
men allegedly amassed chemicals that could be used to make
bombs.

Just ahead of the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001
terrorist acts in the United States, security forces in Berlin may
have prevented another possible attack. On Thursday morning,
police in the German capital arrested two men suspected of
gathering chemicals that could be used to build a bomb.

A 24-year-old German citizen of Lebanese descent and a 28
-year-old from the Gaza Strip were apprehended following an
investigation by police and state prosecutors that has been
underway for some time, a police spokesman said.

Officials with the Public Prosecutor's Office said the men are
alleged to have been preparing a "serious act of violent
subversion." They are believed to have amassed chemical
substances that could have been used in the preparation of a
bomb, he said. Authorities declined to reveal further details
about the potential explosive.

While a police spokesman confirmed to SPIEGEL ONLINE that
the two men had acquired chemicals, he said they had not
begun building a bomb. They presented no immediate danger,
he said. Investigators also believe the suspects are isolated
individuals believed to be acting alone and with no known links
to militant groups or extremists abroad, he added.

Ice Packs On Order

The announcement came as investigators were simultaneously
conducting a search at a Muslim cultural center in the city's
Wedding district, along with the suspects' apartments in the
Neukölln and Kreuzberg districts.

"The Islamic culture center is not under suspicion in this
investigation," police spokesman Thomas Neuendorf told
broadcaster N24, explaining that the two suspects were simply
known to have spent time there.

The companies from which the men bought chemicals set the
investigation in motion when they alerted officials about
suspicious quantities in their orders, the Berliner Morgenpost
newspaper reported. Cooling elements and acids used in the
agriculture industry were among the chemicals, the paper
reported.

Over the course of several months, the main suspect
allegedly ordered large quantities of gel ice packs, daily Der
Tagesspiegel reported. Combined with a certain acid, the gel
inside can be highly explosive, the paper said.

Police ruled out any connection to the upcoming 10th
anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks or the visit
by Pope Benedict XVI to Germany scheduled for later in the
month.

The first-ever deadly Islamist attack in Germany occurred in
March at the Frankfurt International Airport, where an
immigrant from Kosovo living in the country attacked and killed
two American servicemen.

djh
----
I am waiting for the guy with the Gold Badges and quick
disconnect rubber hoses on their fire extinguishers to run
"cold pack" through the search engine here and see what
fall out of the tree.....!

Meth Lab Awareness Clues

The WiZard is In - 12-9-2011 at 15:20

These chemicals are commonly associated with meth labs:

http://tinyurl.com/Meth-lab-chems

warteo - 20-9-2011 at 14:39

Quote: Originally posted by Roger86

I'm unaware of australian law's but can anyone estimate on what is his sentance going to be?

Australian law is often a joke with ridiculously short sentences for terrible crimes. Judging by the following article about real terrorists you'd think his sentence could end up being zero. However, I get the feeling that they'd like to make an example of this guy and give him some jail time. Then again he could get off since the media have potentially prejudiced the case with their rabid reporting.

http://www.news.com.au/national/these-terrorists-wanted-to-k...