Sciencemadness Discussion Board

A good idea...

ScienceHideout - 24-6-2011 at 08:00
Quote:

It's amazing how we've all coalesced (pun very much intended) into an unofficial research team.


NurdRage said this while trying to isolate potassium from KOH and a few other reactants. However, I just had an idea that will be specifically for this. Who likes the idea of: AROchem (Amateur Research Organization (the chem means ‘for chemistry’)? It will be a separate message board with a bunch of password protected forums, each for a certain research project. Leaders of research projects will be appointed after some members are submitting applications for projects. A forum then will be created (and password protected) for that research project, and the leader will be made forum moderator. After that, anyone can apply for the password to a research team (then joining that project) by PMing the leader of that project. There will also be a section where the leaders can post documents and updates of their team’s progress. I will volunteer to make this board (I have a bit of experience on making message boards) if you like the idea and you will help take part in it. Any new updates I have will be posted here. BTW: I think polverone should be another administrator :-) .

plante1999 - 24-6-2011 at 08:43

I am for a such project.

Megamarko94 - 24-6-2011 at 09:32

it is a good idea...i am in...

LanthanumK - 24-6-2011 at 12:54

Why do the forums need to be password protected? Sorry if I am asking the obvious.

ScienceHideout - 24-6-2011 at 13:32

That way, no one from the ___ group can spy on the ___ group. It is just a privacy thing.

hkparker - 24-6-2011 at 16:03

Why do you need privacy? The way I see it knowledge should be free and restricting people's access to your work cannot have any positive impact on anything. Now preventing people from posting who are not part of the project is more understandable but still, we seem to get quite a bit done here don't we?

ScienceHideout - 24-6-2011 at 16:17

The website is already up. BTW I will discuss this issue with the other admin and we might come to a conclusion on what to do. As of now, they are protected, but we will give it some thought.

plante1999 - 24-6-2011 at 18:15

The issu will be that it will be restricted but with montly newsletter.

bob800 - 24-6-2011 at 18:32

I like the enthusiasm, but I don't quite see why we would accomplish more on a new forum then on sciencemadness? There are already hundreds of very intelligent chemists on SM, and it would take quite some time to get enough intelligent chemists on a brand new board. Why don't we just start threads on SM for each project? To be honest, unless you incorporate something really special with the new board (like BromicAcid's idea for an amateur research grant), I don't really see why this would be more productive than Sciencemadness.

This is just my opinion. If you're excited to start a new board, go for it! I just think that it would take quite awhile to get anywhere close to where SM is.

hkparker - 24-6-2011 at 18:34

Agree with bob800, in my opinion what we do on SM is more productive then locking down the project, especially for how long it will take people to get involved. Post it here.

plante1999 - 24-6-2011 at 18:57

whe dont want AROchem be an different antity of SM but more like another part of it.

hkparker - 24-6-2011 at 18:58

Then talk to the site admins

Bot0nist - 24-6-2011 at 20:03

Quote: Originally posted by bob800  
I like the enthusiasm, but I don't quite see why we would accomplish more on a new forum then on sciencemadness? There are already hundreds of very intelligent chemists on SM, and it would take quite some time to get enough intelligent chemists on a brand new board. Why don't we just start threads on SM for each project? To be honest, unless you incorporate something really special with the new board (like BromicAcid's idea for an amateur research grant), I don't really see why this would be more productive than Sciencemadness.

This is just my opinion. If you're excited to start a new board, go for it! I just think that it would take quite awhile to get anywhere close to where SM is.



Quote:
hkparker
Agree with bob800, in my opinion what we do on SM is more productive then locking down the project, especially for how long it will take people to get involved. Post it here.


I am in agreement as well. I think you should build a forum if it is something your exited to do, but I think we can and do accomplish your end goals on SM already. Look at the many examples like the potassium and sodium threads, the phosphorous thread, the chemical fire thread, ect., ect. We seem to do a great job out in the open on SM already of teaming up and solving problems collectively. Sure, there are some minor issues like a few irrelevant posts and a few immature posters, but it is a small price to pay for the exposure each project gets from the pantheon of talents from members in all different fields that the whole of ScienceMadness has, IMHO.


[Edited on 25-6-2011 by Bot0nist]

Lambda-Eyde - 25-6-2011 at 02:43

I wholeheartedly support this idea and have been thinking about this for a while as well. But, I think that creating a whole new forum for this is the wrong way to go. Here at Sciencemadness we already have hundreds of really sharp members, who know what they're doing - making a whole new forum just for this niche idea won't help at all. Also, the forum you have now doesn't look very serious at all. Just throwing up a free message board and giving everyone who wants their own, locked forum smells like 15-year-olds craving for internet power (and I know what I'm talking about).

However, I would like to see a subforum for this here at Sciencemadness. I envision a forum category where everyone can read topics, but only moderators and project participants can post in them. The forum would need strict rules and guidelines to keep a certain level of seriousness. Collecting data, doing detailed write-ups and sharing all of your experimental details would be essential to such a community project.

Let's say you'd like to start a research project - send a PM to Polverone, and he would evaluate it together with the rest of the staff. Several factors would apply here: Your forum history, i.e. you wouldn't be allowed to start a project if you have been here for two weeks, have 20 posts and don't know how to write basic english. But if you have proven to be a useful member, you're known in the community and have some chemistry knowledge - then you have a go. :)

Then there's also the project idea itself. Is there a need for the project, i.e. has it already been researched to death? Is it practically possible to do in an amateur setting? Is it directly related to drugs or explosives? Do we want to publish that?

The potassium thread is probably the prime example: From an obscure patent the community found a way of producing potassium metal from readily available materials! Now, what is left is to apply some scientific rigour to find the optimal conditions, such as reagent proportions, temperature, solvent etc - and maybe even try to find a plausible mechanism!

Now, this is maybe just my mind getting all excited, but THINK of the possibilities! This is an unique oppurtunity to do real science! Peer review, parallel experiments, controls etc! All by the community. How cool wouldn't it be to publish something for real: "A Sciencemadness.org publication" :D


Polverone, would you consider this at all? Or at least give us your thoughts. :)

plante1999 - 25-6-2011 at 02:47

Like I have already said we dont want it be an different antity of SienceMadness we just want it be another part of it.

[Edited on 25-6-2011 by plante1999]

[Edited on 25-6-2011 by plante1999]

ScienceHideout - 25-6-2011 at 05:57

I started this to actually give experience of working on REAL research. In grad school, this is what you do. I started this to keep the scientific method. On SM, we ask a question, and it's answered with a few experiments. What happened to making observations, stating a question, gathering research, designing an experiment, collecting data, and stating a conclusion? On SM, we sometimes skip parts of that and go right to the next step.

LanthanumK - 25-6-2011 at 06:15

Sciencemadness should not get as formal as a research journal. Anecdotes, one-time experiments, and hearsay are acceptable here. If it gets too formal, many members will not be able to contribute any more because the conditions of writing a journal have a hard time being met by amateur chemistry. Either using AROchem or starting a section called "Research" on the forum would be a viable solution to those who want to get really serious with their chemical processes. I also think there should be a difference between questions and discussions. http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16671 is a discussion. http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16762 is a question. Many discussions can go in a research section or even in a subforum. Questions can remain here.

I hope some of this makes sense.

ScienceHideout - 25-6-2011 at 06:22

Quote: Originally posted by LanthanumK  
Sciencemadness should not get as formal as a research journal. Anecdotes, one-time experiments, and hearsay are acceptable here. If it gets too formal, many members will not be able to contribute any more because the conditions of writing a journal have a hard time being met by amateur chemistry. Either using AROchem or starting a section called "Research" on the forum would be a viable solution to those who want to get really serious with their chemical processes. I also think there should be a difference between questions and discussions. http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16671 is a discussion. http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16762 is a question. Many discussions can go in a research section or even in a subforum. Questions can remain here.

I hope some of this makes sense.


Thank you very much for clearing everything up. I couldn't have come up with a better way to explain it.

Nicodem - 25-6-2011 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceHideout  
I started this to actually give experience of working on REAL research. In grad school, this is what you do. I started this to keep the scientific method. On SM, we ask a question, and it's answered with a few experiments. What happened to making observations, stating a question, gathering research, designing an experiment, collecting data, and stating a conclusion? On SM, we sometimes skip parts of that and go right to the next step.

Maybe it is a good idea if you start applying all that principles on yourself. I do not think that your demonstration of beliefs in the theory of spontaneous generation, which was proven wrong by Luis Pasteur in the 19th century are very exemplary of the scientific method. Your recent thread on making uric acid from urea may appear like some banal trolling at first glance, but I'm quite sure it is merely an honest consequence of non-scientific methods like mental lazinesses instead. Posting ideas without showing knowledge is fully acceptable, but posting ideas without investing even one minute of literature search into it (and not even comparing molecular structures!), is not scientific at all.

I agree that there are ways to help increasing cooperation among the collective, but making a web of isolation chambers somehow does not sound a good idea at all.

Promoting a mentoring system for the beginners would be a much more reliable approach, that would not only improve and speed up the learning process, but also have a strong social and cohesive impact.

Morgan - 25-6-2011 at 07:56

I like materials science. I would visit such sites if I knew of them. THink of all you could learn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materials_science

[Edited on 25-6-2011 by Morgan]

Arthur Dent - 25-6-2011 at 09:07

Aah, the art of complicating things. Can't we just have ScienceMadness and work within its boundaries?

There is plenty of excellent information and research that can be done right here. Anyway, I strongly believe that the lack of input would make the information of less value that what's on ScienceMadness right now. Variety is the spice of life, and frankly, as you pointed out, the example of the metallic potassium thread is a good example of a lot of input from many sources offering a wealth of data on one subject. I doubt that this would have evolved in such a manner if there were just a handful of researchers in an enclosed forum.

Robert

m1tanker78 - 25-6-2011 at 10:10

Quote:
Aah, the art of complicating things. Can't we just have ScienceMadness and work within its boundaries?

LOL, (Robert).

It sounds a lot like a club to me. Not that it's bad (in general), I just don't see how a 'secret society' fits in with the theme of SM.org. It even sounds a bit kewlish, IMHO.

On the plus side, you wouldn't have gotten a response like mine in a password-protected thread or forum. ;)

It may be a stretch but perhaps a whimsy-like sub forum where the thread starter has quasi-moderator power (only for his/her thread) would be more suitable if you're hell-bent on controlling the responses or education level of responding members.

Tank

ScienceHideout - 25-6-2011 at 10:42

When the government researches things, do they just let the whole world into area 51 to see what's going on?

plante1999 - 25-6-2011 at 10:49

I have made a poll to see general opinion on SienceMadness for the privacity.

The tread : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16792

hkparker - 25-6-2011 at 10:57

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceHideout  
When the government researches things, do they just let the whole world into area 51 to see what's going on?


Are you planning on using classified documents, creating experimental aircraft, doing probably illegal experiements, or anything vital to the national security of the US?

Rogeryermaw - 25-6-2011 at 10:59

no but dammit they should! i for one would love to see what all the fuss is about.

plante1999 - 25-6-2011 at 11:01

I do no think that we make anything vital to the national security of the US but hkparker , you should vote on the poll that I have juste made.

m1tanker78 - 25-6-2011 at 11:17

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceHideout  
When the government researches things, do they just let the whole world into area 51 to see what's going on?

Oh, boy!
++++++++++++++

In the context of your analogy, I equate SciMad to the city park. I don't own it (OK, I own 2 ppm of it) but I'm free to use it, keeping within posted regulations.

I don't have any aliens in my attic nor any wrecked UFOs in my back yard. (I swear)

Tank

hkparker - 25-6-2011 at 11:36

In response to your poll, pante1999

Keeping everything open is exactly what SM is, so in effect that would be another sciencemadness.

Keeping it read-only to people who are not part of the project makes sense, but still, dont we get more done by keeping things open here? If you want to see formal papers written by SM members check out the republications section.

I think everyone has made it clear keeping everything closed is a bad idea.

Basically, starting another forum is unnecessary and will give you slower results. Post your ideas on SM, if you want to write a formal paper on it do so, talk to individual member if you would like their help, and write a republication.

Rogeryermaw - 25-6-2011 at 12:14

also, how many times has there been a block on the progress of a project only to have that obstacle overcome by someone who is keeping track of a project but has no involvement. if those people with insight are barred from contributing, a project may stall with no sight of completion. and if those same people are forced to wait for the convenience of someone else in order to share their knowledge, it may be a source of frustration. also, the exposure here is far greater than any new site can expect for years to come.

LanthanumK - 25-6-2011 at 14:33

Science research should not have to be secret. It just has to be more accurate than normal forum talk. In the proposed AROchem or "Research" section, only experts on a subject are entitled to provide sources and accurately done experiments to back up a reasonable hypothesis; you know, the typical scientific method. Here, questions are answered and opinions are given.

Bot0nist - 25-6-2011 at 17:16

Another good example of good research by the TS. Haha!
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15813#...

Not to mention your website showing a Tupperware container with the bottom covered in TCAP. BTW, how would that fire extinguisher help you when you go to scoop a little more out with that wooden stick and the whole lot blows your head off? You claimed to be an intermediate level chemist I believe?

I am not trying to be a 'character assassin" but come on man. Are you serious?


[Edited on 26-6-2011 by Bot0nist]

LanthanumK - 26-6-2011 at 02:41

For the question about hydrides, opening a pyrophoric NiMH battery is the best way.

hkparker - 26-6-2011 at 19:45

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
I am not trying to be a 'character assassin" but come on man. Are you serious?


I don't think any of us are trying to be rude, just realistic. And realistically this project will not work well, in our opinions.

Watched the TATP video... wow, for all the warning about safety on your website you should be more careful...

Polverone - 27-6-2011 at 11:15

I welcome anyone who has the opportunity and discipline to research a topic and share their findings here. Better yet if more than one person does it at the same time! But the critical ingredients are opportunity (sufficient apparatus, reagents, and time) and discipline (following through with ideas, not giving up on the first setback, not jumping to conclusions not yet supported by data). Building a new subforum that serves as an electronic secret clubhouse isn't going to help. In fact, focusing on organization, membership, and control is likely to mean that people spend more time on social jockeying and less on research.

Len has been a leader in research here not because he is good at organizing committees but because he went into the lab on his own, and optimized and documented processes that were widely known but not well-developed for amateurs. Klute, Magpie, Rogeryermaw, Rosco Bodine, Fleaker, Woelen, garage chemist, and many others I'm forgetting have likewise gone into the lab and shared the results of their experimentation. As for having a forum to collaborate, well that's what all of SM is for! If you just want to write notes to yourself you can do it without an internet connection. If you are writing here, you are writing for an audience.