Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Pest Control?

Pest Control?

hissingnoise - 7-6-2011 at 12:37

I've just had, to relocate my studio back to its original setting, a large, old 'room' which hasn't been used, or even ventilated, in years!
It's freaking me out a bit, but it had to be done!
I've hoovered up the forest of cobwebs as best I could but I know the area is still infested by spiders, beetles and other insects!
And the place reeks of dampness, mould and some unpleasant smell I can't identify.
But I've moved all of my materials in in a hurry and I'm wondering if I should burn some piles of sulphur to free the place of insects!
I know it sounds like stupidity but I don't quite know if SO2 will adversely affect canvases, paints, brushes, some electronics and various types of paper.
I'm afraid that the combination of dampness and SO2 might seriously damage canvas through formation of H2SO4.
Canvases, some painted, some primed and many raw slowly disintegrating before my eyes would be plainly disastrous.
Them shredding away on a buyers wall could land me in deep shit!
I have a dehumidifier but there is dampness seeping through one wall all the way up to the ceiling.
A handyman friend has promised to seal the wall and ceiling but it won't happen for a few weeks.
I know it's an awkward question but there's kind of a lot riding on it as I have a deadline of less than two months for a couple of fairly important commissions so I'm running late.
Should I chance burning sulphur and ventilating the place immediately afterwards to flush the gasses, or would pockets of SO2 remain, to fuck things up later?

m1tanker78 - 7-6-2011 at 12:52

What material are the walls made of? Why don't you apply some hydrogen peroxide to the mold/mildew first. Ammonia will also help reduce some offending odors but similar considerations would apply to burning sulfur. You're probably going to have to remove all sensitive items and attack the nasties with some chemicals (chlorine-based) and even some elbow grease (or pay someone to do the same). H2O2 would be my first attempt - without clearing out the room.

Tank

Neil - 8-6-2011 at 03:39

Before you begin calling your self Rabo Karabekian, why not sprinkle borax in the corners and use some bleach etc before you resort to gassing the room with sulfur?

Don't forget the wiring in your walls. If you start pumping sulfur fumes around the place, any wiring is going to run the risk of damage.

There may even be neutralizing agents in some of your materials that absorb some of the fumes and acidify...

hissingnoise - 9-6-2011 at 02:50

Quote:

Before you begin calling your self Rabo Karabekian . . .

I'm a traditionalist in that sense and use oils only - no acrylics or new 'experimental' formulations.
But my wife has given it some of her time so there's been a transformation I hadn't thought possible.
In the opener, I said large room, when I meant the opposite; it's smaller than the old place but it'll suffice for now!
I've ditched the sulphur-burning idea as being too iffy . . .

LanthanumK - 9-6-2011 at 03:03

Use the sulfur-burning idea as a last resort.

hissingnoise - 9-6-2011 at 04:51

Yeah, I have memories of well-diluted H2SO4 causing cotton coats to fritter away, sometimes weeks after contact . . .
And anyway my wife has worked her usual magic on the place!

garage chemist - 9-6-2011 at 07:23

SO2 would have been my first idea too, but it will likely attack canvas and textiles through acid formation, and certainly attack electronics and rust steel parts.

What you need is a fumigant like methyl bromide. This gas is highly toxic to insects in all stages of development, so it will get rid of eggs and larvae too. It is also odorless and non-corrosive.
PainKilla has once reported on this forum how he generated it from methanol, KBr and H2SO4 and used it for methylating hydroquinone.
Unfortunately, it is toxic to humans as well.
Normally, the room to be fumigated is closed off and locked, the gas pumped in, and left closed for a few days so that the gas can reach all crevices through diffusion.
Phosphine, hydrogen cyanide and sulfuryl fluoride are used in a similar way. HCN-releasing solid products include the infamous "Zyklon B" which originally was a fumigation product.

Only certified pest control personnel are allowed to purchase and use fumigants, so you will have to make your own if you don't want to hire a professional to do this. It is also dangerous, but since you are asking in a chemistry forum, you may be looking for DIY solutions.
I would never recommend DIY fumigation, I just wanted to point you towards the substances that are normally used for the purpose.

Sedit - 9-6-2011 at 08:37

Would a formaldehyde solution be effective perhaps? Seal up the room and air it out after and I would think it would deter many insects while killing a large amount of the mold.

garage chemist - 9-6-2011 at 08:42

Yes, now I remember formaldehyde being recommended in an old book I once read. A beaker with concentrated formalin is placed on a wire mesh on a tripod, a burner is lit under it, and the solution left to boil to dryness in the closed and locked room. Leave the gas inside the room for a few days for full effect.

This is much safer than methyl bromide due to the intense pungent smell of formaldehyde.

argyrium - 9-6-2011 at 11:45

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit

Would a formaldehyde solution be effective perhaps? Seal up the room and air it out after and I would think it would deter many insects while killing a large amount of the mold.

Formaldehyde would be very effective - BUT.. It can and will denature protein containing materials as in collagen/hide glues/or genuine gesso (e.g. primed canvases). This will occur at very low concentrations - below the perceptible "smell" point.

Drive away foul and evil spirits that do haunt the place.

The WiZard is In - 13-6-2011 at 07:58

This from Mellor X

Can you still buy sulphur candles OTC?

condennnsa - 11-7-2011 at 00:48

I'm also having a similar problem with a basement that hasn't been maintained for about 20 years. Moths, spiders and wood eating worms , it's really creepy.
I considered mixing a kilo of ammonium nitrate and NaOH and a tad of water and letting the ammonia sit for a day or two.
I mainly consider ammonia since it's on the basic side rather than acidic like SO2, and also because i can get both nh4no3 and naoh for about $1.5/kilo.
Will ammonia kill these pests in such a high concentration? The basement is about 60 m^3.

Also, hissingnoise, what did you use in the end for your room?

Arthur Dent - 11-7-2011 at 03:49

A good trick to keep the creepy crawlies away is to put mothballs on the edge of the floor and walls, around the room. Also for "shock treatment", put a few mothballs in an old paint can and gently heat the bottom with a heating element, this naphtalene vapor cloud will drive away any insects.

Buy these little plastic "damp traps" at the dollar store, they're simply a plastic box filled with calcium chloride, but they're fantastic to suck-up the humidity and dampness in a room.

After your ammonia/bleach/lye cleanup, make sure to wash thoroughly the concrete floor and heat-up the room to accelerate the drying. When all looks clean and dry, consider putting a thick coat or two of concrete epoxy paint on the floor (prevents dust and it's less friendly for bugs). if the ceiling is opened-up, consider finishing-it up by putting sheetrock over the wood frame. With a coat of white paint, the room will be ten times brighter!

I've found that any room, no matter how decrepid, can be restored to a very useable space. The only exception is active water seepage. Unless you do major work with the foundations and resolve the water seepage issue, a permanently damp, wet room is totally unusable and you should move on, period.

Robert

Fusionfire - 11-7-2011 at 04:49

The problem with damp/mould is that killing and eradicating the problem are two separate things.

To eradicate mildew and mould you have to do the following two things:
1) Find a suitable sporicide
2) Ensure adequate ventilation and dryness so re-colonisation doesn't recur

There are a limited number of sporicidal chemicals but hydrogen peroxide, sodium hypochlorite and calcium hypochlorite are the ones most likely available to a chemist. Sporicidal, residue-free chemicals are even harder to find: hydrogen peroxide and ozone are probably the few ones.

Attachment: sporicidal_disinfectants.pdf (1.2MB)
This file has been downloaded 2713 times

hissingnoise - 11-7-2011 at 05:13

The dehumidifier, left on for eight hour periods at the night-rate has had an effect and wall-washing with bleach has allowed a coat of transforming acrylic white . . .
I hardly know the place!
Human and insect populations are coexisting peacefully, and the smell of turps and linseed oil has overwhelmed all others!
I usually, now, just pick up insects and toss them outside!
BTW, I'm just a mere dabbler . . .

condennnsa - 11-7-2011 at 05:21

Quote: Originally posted by Arthur Dent

After your ammonia/bleach/lye cleanup, make sure to wash thoroughly the concrete floor and heat-up the room to accelerate the drying. When all looks clean and dry, consider putting a thick coat or two of concrete epoxy paint on the floor (prevents dust and it's less friendly for bugs). if the ceiling is opened-up, consider finishing-it up by putting sheetrock over the wood frame. With a coat of white paint, the room will be ten times brighter!

Arthur , you misunderstood me.

I was referring to mixing a relatively large amount (~ 1 kg) of stoichiometric NaOH / NH4NO3 in a container then adding a little water which initiates a very violent reaction
NH4NO3 + NaOH -> NaNO3 (aq) + NH3 + H2O

I used to make NaNO3 this way.
This takes about 10 seconds and is very vigorous, it fills the room with ammonia gas.

So I wasn't considering spreading ammonium hydroxide around, but rather gassing it with ammonia gas and letting it work for a day or two. I also considered ammonia since I heard that it tends to remove different smells and it leaves a 'fresh' smell.

You're right about the moisture issue, luckily I do have about a kilo of CaCl2 lying around.

About the epoxy paint I don't know since it sounds expensive and I'm broke.

Neil - 12-7-2011 at 05:41

Gut some electronics, make an ozonator, seal up the room and ozonate the frack out of it.

hissingnoise - 12-7-2011 at 06:52

A homemade ozone generator will produce NO2 in moist air as a side product and it's more toxic and more corrosive than ozone . . .

Arthur Dent - 12-7-2011 at 07:47

Here's something inexpensive and efficient:

http://www.concrobium.com/atHome_howItWorks.php

This stuff is excellent to kill mold and mildew and prevents the formation of mold afterwards. I used this before installing my floating floor tiles in my basement. Of course, spray this stuff after the gassing, the cleaning and the dusting, before you paint the floor, ceiling and walls with the proper paints.

As for the paint, don't worry about being broke, most hardware store sell "recycled" paint at a fraction of the cost, and if you don't mind some odd colors, it can be very inexpensive.

Robert

Neil - 12-7-2011 at 14:08

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

A homemade ozone generator will produce NO2 in moist air . . .

Which is why you pull air through a desiccant before you zap it

Paddywhacker - 13-7-2011 at 03:21

Cherish the spiders, they are our allies.

As people have already mentioned, ozone is good for problems like your room. You need a proper industrial grade ozonizer, though. You should be able to hire one, or the services of someone that possesses one.

Ozone is only oxygen, so it won't leave any residues at all. But it is a toxic and powerful oxidant while it is present. You will have to seal up the room with the ozonizer on a timer, and leave it many hours to dissipate afterwards. It will oxidize smelly organic smells and sterilize exposed surfaces. It will also attack rubber, many plastics, paint films and many pigments, so you will need to move your treasures out of harms way.