Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Rubbing witches' broomsticks with alkaloids to produce a 'flying' effect

Rubbing witches' broomsticks with alkaloids to produce a 'flying' effect

Quantum - 6-3-2004 at 19:37

Welcome: I think this is my first post in the biology area.

I found a book called Napoleon's Buttons that describes the physiological effects of alkaloids taken transdermaly(through the skin). As we know according to lore 'witches' flew on brooms and in fictional books were said to rub the brooms with plants. I read a book(the title had the word 'bedpost' in it I think) where it describes the witch rubbing the broomsticks with belladonna aka deadly nightshade or Atropa belladonna. The book talks about how the kids look for a plant and find one in someone's house as a house plant.

Now at that time I thought that was just witch lore to make the story interesting(can't read to much into 2$ books

) but after reading about the effects of alkaloids I found interesting information.

Napoleon's Buttons talks about the theory that 'witches' made ointments from the Mandrake plant, Belladonna and Henbane; these are all members of the nightshade family. These are toxic if you eat them but can be adsorbed into the skin. The book says that the 'witches' applied the ointment to the brooms and then got on the brooms believing that they would fly. Other times they would rub the ointment all over their bodies. However the 'witches' got the ointment on their skin around their pussies where many veins are close the the surface of the skin and the membranes could easily absorb the ointment.

Alkaloids have hallucinogenic effects and the book says they produce: feelings of flying and falling, distorted vision, euphoria, hysteria, a feeling of leaving the body and 'encounters with beasts'. The 'witches' thought that they really were flying because at that time superstition was common. Atropine and scopolamine caused the physiological effects.

This may be more suited to the Hive but this is not a synthesis but just some very interesting chemical information I found. It goes to show how chemicals shape history.

Organikum - 7-3-2004 at 02:19

Yes, the main active compound in witches ointments were nightshade plants - ehereby belladonno is the most dangerous and mandrake the most psychoactive one. The ointments were mostly applied by rubbing them into the armpit - the idea of rubbing them on broomsticks is probably more a myth made up to show the sexual character of what the so called witches did - intercourse with the devil is the next to come in those stories.
The alkaloids in the nightshde plants make very realistic halluzinations, one sees persons which dont exist and even talks to them and more. But they are hard to dose and already slight overdoses lead to horrible visions - true horrortrips and stronger overdoses can kill people.
It is actually no pleasant experience overall and I know what I talk of here.

NEVER use bellodonna. This is much to dangerous, the best of the plants is mandrake, the witches knew their business......

Quantum - 7-3-2004 at 06:12

Im not going to try it! No questionable physiological compounds for me! I just saw it and thought people might be interested.

Geomancer - 7-3-2004 at 10:11

Witches appear to have used a wide variety of compounds, and a corresponding variety of administration methods, with plants in the Solanacae (sp?) delivered transcutaneously being the most often mentioned, AFAIK. In my part of the world, the most common of these plants is Datura stramonium. The next time I see a large plant, maybe I'll try to analyse its alkaloid content. It is interesting that the war on drugs goes back so far, though not with historical continuity. A prison term seems preferable to being burnt alive, too.
In the book "Toads and Toadstools", Adrian Morgan refers to the book "On Lycanthropy, the Transformation and Ecstasy of Sorcerers" by Sieur Jean de Nynauld, published 1615. Nynauld, among other routes, apparently mentions absorbtion through the vaginal mucosa. Morgan mentions that this is a comparitively safe route of administration, since the drug would be rapidly absorbed and the dosing controled by when the user lost consciousness.
As for (not) doing this, take Organikum's advice; he knows what he's talking about.

thunderfvck - 7-3-2004 at 13:20

I actually tried datura a while back during my crazy drug induced youth. I prepared it as a tea, it tasted like urine. About an hour or so afterwards, I felt nice waves through my body, nothing serious. It was pretty late so I decided to go to bed. I woke up the next morning (6ish) insisting I had to go somewhere (my dad was awake and so I explained this to him). I was in nothing more than my boxers. And I kept telling him I had to meet friends there. I wasn't supposed to meet anyone there until about 2 pm later that day.

THe rest of the trip is blur. I remember talking to my friends in my bathroom, telling my mom that my friends were in there and she wouldn't believe me. I didn't understand why she didn't believe me, afterall I had just had a conversation with one of them in there.

I was convinced that I made toast, but there was no toast in the toaster. I grew very angry. Where's my toast!? I made toast, where did it go? I had made no toast.

These are a sample of what had happened to me. I was 100% delerious. Everything that happened to me as a hallucination was percieevd as being incredibly real. When I came to later that day it was as if I had just woken from a dream. I was asking questions like, had this really happened? My mom verified my questions and I was astonished. I'm very fortunate my mother is so understanding. My dad wanted to send me to the hospital, but he had left for work and so he was gone for most of my trip.

Afterwards, my eyes were in terrible shape. I was unable to focus on anything that was closer than an arms length without feeling an incredible strain on my eyes.

I will never repeat the experience.

unionised - 15-3-2004 at 16:17

This is just about on topic if you accept that the first post was about the effect of (natural product derived) chemicals on history.

Santa Claus is fat, jolly and red with white trimmings.
The Fly agaric Mushroom is round and red with white markings.
Some groups of people native to the north of Europe (broadly speaking Lapland) used fly agaric as a social drug in much the same way as most of the west uses alcohol (ie to get jolly).
These people tend reindeer and (at least according to some sources) they feed the mushrooms to the reindeer and collect the drug from the animals' urine (this is said to get rid of some of the toxic impurities).
Santa Claus comes into your house via the chimney.
It's cold in Lapland; their chimney doubles as the door (why have more than 1 hole in your tent).
I have never been sure if this is just a coincidence.
Anybody got any ideas/ proof/ refutation?

axehandle - 15-3-2004 at 16:34

I've tried fly agarus (<i>amanita muscarius</i>

in my bold and stupid youth and can vouch for that it works. It's not nearly as powerful a hallucinogenic as psilysybin or LSD though. I wouldn't recommend it since it makes you feel sick <b>before</b> you get high, the opposite of alcohol. Besided that, the mushroom also contains a non-psychotropic poison.

Try fly agaric at your own mercy. I'll only say that the best way to prepare it is to boil it in water, then drink the water, trying not to puke. This was 12 years ago.

Nowadays, I "just say no".

chemoleo - 15-3-2004 at 17:29

Now, gents, I dont believe this forum, nor this thread, is about discussing experiences with this or that drug (as interesting as it may be). There are plenty of other places for this particular purpose; I suggest to U2U the above members for more information

PS Thunderfvck, how would you possibly know what urine tasted like?? Now you may indeed have had some problems during your drug-induced youth

Organikum - 15-3-2004 at 18:06

I believe thats biochemistry and it is discussed in a decent, realistic and trustworthy way whats rare. Nobody advises the consum of these compounds what is the problem?

And chemoleo, perhaps I should better PM you this but.....

Quote:

how would you possibly know what urine tasted like

Pssst! The practice is called "cunnilingus".....

BromicAcid - 15-3-2004 at 18:17

Also note that sweat is pretty much urine, a good workout on a summer day and you midaswell be starring in one of those golden shower videos...

chemoleo - 15-3-2004 at 18:22

Well Organikum, I am sorry you had to go through this. A good wash helps

Anyway I dont think 'talking to non-existing people due to extensive tripping' has much to do with biochemistry, unless you are in fact trying to deduce/comment on/whatever the biochemistry behind those experiences. And I doubt anyone could, at this point.
The proposition that those experiences were discussed in a, I quote, 'decent, realistic and trustworthy way' does not justify turning this thread into a trip experience thread, now does it?

In any case, before you start to argue (where I have no doubt you will

), hold your horses and lets just get this back on topic

PS If anyone has much more to say about tripping experiences, and wouldn't want to confuse this thread, I suggest the Whimsy section

thunderfvck - 15-3-2004 at 22:33

I drink urine on a daily basis.

Best thing to do is just recycle, I mean why waste precious time at the tap, or next to the fridge, when you can have your own personal water gun do the magic. Just point and let loose, man. Sure it doesn't smell good when you find yourself drenched in it, but you'll feel GREAT knowing that you're drinking the bodily fluids that YOU YOURSELF excreted. Nothing's better than home made lemonade, straight from the tap.

PHILOU Zrealone - 2-6-2004 at 08:44

Solanacea family is very rich at alkaloids...and indeed.
*Belladone
*Datura
*Tobaco
*Potatoes
*Tomatoes
*...
Are amongst the more obviously toxic (alkaloids are in the fruits or in the leaves and green parts, germs)
Sometimes cooking stops the effect.
Sometimes culture selection and crossing has allowed a less toxic species.

Never make tea out of tomato plant green parts, nor with tobaco or potatos green parts...

:cool:

unionised - 2-6-2004 at 14:12

On a vaguely interesting (but at least biochemical) note, The solanidine type alkaloids from potatos and tomatoes have substantially the opposite effect of those in belladona and datura. (They are cholinesterase inhibitors rather than choline blockers).
Has anyone heard of anyone extracting alkaloids from aubergines?

brisance - 20-12-2004 at 07:56

I've actually read that Jimson weed (datura) can have the side effect of paralyzing the user for up to a week. From other reports I've read, your trip was mild.

JohnWW - 20-12-2004 at 20:41

I read somewhere in a book on witchcraft about a witches' "flying ointment" made from belladonna extract (containing atropine and hyoscyamine) and aconite (monkshood/wolfbane) extract (containing aconitine),. and I think also henbane (containing hyoscyamine and scopolamine), emulsified with lard or vegetable oil, as the principal active ingredients, and rubbed all over the body. Someone who tried it experienced hallucinations of flying to a witches' "sabbat" where he met other spirit beings.

wetboxers - 30-5-2006 at 22:41

Quote:

Originally posted by thunderfvck
I actually tried datura a while back during my crazy drug induced youth. I prepared it as a tea, it tasted like urine....

you have tasted urine? Just curious....

Organikum - 31-5-2006 at 02:09

Well some time ago I drank urine for an sudden interest giving the famous "urine therapy" a try, by drinking a glass of my morning urine (forerun discarded). It´s not so horrible, I remember english breakfast being much worse.
It´s not so tasty either and as the idea of becoming an ascetic vanished rapididly anyways I stopped it after a week or so.

/ORG

prole - 31-5-2006 at 12:17

Man, I wish people would learn from other peoples' mistakes when it comes to the Nightshade family of plants. NONE of them are safe, even Mandrake (Mandragora officianalis), excepting tomato fruits and potato tubers. As stated above, they're more of a deleriant, complete with waking dreams, amnesia, blurred vision for days, temporary shutting down of the kidneys, profound unquenchable thirst, humiliating and dangerous experiences, lack of self-awareness... nothing at all pleasant about it (ok, the last SEVERAL HOURS are like really clean LSD, but the first 15 or so HOURS are horrifying - I once asked my mom if she had any kids while I was in the hospital on this crap, and went on to piss-off EVERYONE in the emergency ward). Wierd personality changes occur that are noticed by family for a few months after a 'trip'. Small doses probably won't land your high ass in the hospital, but what exactly is a small dose? It's your life. You've been warned.

Chemoleo, I apologize for relating trip reports here, but the questions are being raised, and I sense a curiosity by some that should be 'nipped in the bud'. These are truly dangerous drugs, and should only be used - if at all - by shamans or their adepts, not curious stoners.

With regards to applying ointment, it is my understanding that the alkaloids are primarily absorbed by the mucosal membranes, and not so much by the rest of the integumentary system. The hows and whys are better left to those with more brains than I possess, but I believe this to be true and accurate.

Urine is much safer, sterile if healthy, currently unscheduled and available to all. Be sure the donor is free of diabetes (excess sugar in the urine = bacteria) and urinary tract infections. Increased intake of water aids in the dilution of salts. Consumption of asparagus by the donor prior to your urine gargle is contraindicated, as the bouquet/flavour becomes most foul. Avoid excess amounts of any quality of urine, as the uric acid may promote gout.

Xque - 1-6-2006 at 01:45

Now, there's a guy who knows his urine

[Edited on 1-6-2006 by Xque]

Vitus_Verdegast - 10-6-2006 at 11:26

witches and anticholineric alkaloids:

A friend of mine went straight to the E.R. after experimenting with a tea he made from datura stramonium, belladonna and henbane. They pumped his stomach, but apparantly he got away by telling them he was sick from the combination of cannabis and alcohol.

I've dug up a witches' ointment recipe somewhere, that was along the lines of mixing the leaves of datura stramonium, the pods of papaver somniferum and henbane, and the roots of mandrake with dog fat.

The pods of henbane had to be gathered sometime during november, and the root of the mandrake had to be found under a gallow where an innocent man was hanged. The urine and sperm that drops on the ground after the hanged man breaths his last sigh were according to the lore the seed of the mandrake that will grow there. The witch had to tie the tail of a small black dog to the mandrake plant (at night at full moon), fill her ears with wax and scare the dog. When the root gets pulled out it gives a powerful and deadly scream, hence the wax.

The ointment has to be applied on the genital area.

Another witches plant that was frequently used in ointments in Middle Europe is Scopolia carniolica (this is where the name scopolamine comes from).

These are all, btw, beautiful plants to have in your garden. Just keep 'em away from kids.

Quote:

On a vaguely interesting (but at least biochemical) note, The solanidine type alkaloids from potatos and tomatoes have substantially the opposite effect of those in belladona and datura. (They are cholinesterase inhibitors rather than choline blockers).

Very interesting, as the only common antidote to datura poisoning I was aware of was muscarine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&a...
This looks like a good extraction process using the potato plant parts.
Also, in many parts of Europe the black and bitter nightshades are quite common and often regarded upon as weeds. They both contain high levels of solanine-type alkaloids.

urine:

Mmmm... I wonder if there is a market for "Healthy morning urine" concentrate pills? Kind of like those "apple vinegar" pills the healthfood stores succesfully sell as anorexics to middle-aged goat-wool-socked women.

[Edited on 10-6-2006 by Vitus_Verdegast]

JohnWW - 10-6-2006 at 16:02

I once read somewhere of a witches' "flying ointment) made by mulling dried and finely ground aconite (the main active principle of which would be aconitine) and belladonna (main active principle atropine), and I think also hemlock (main active principle coniine) with lard (did not specify from what animal) and rubbing it all over oneself. The recipe was from a medieval witches' grimoire ("Book Of Shadows"). Someone who tried it reported a sensation of flying through the air, and attending a weird spirit "meeting" where other humans and demons were present.

Vitus_Verdegast - 11-6-2006 at 12:13

Aconite and hemlock were indeed used frequently in witches ointments along with the usual solanaceous plants. Aconitine is a deadly neurotoxin which causes cardiac arrhythmia. Coniine from hemlock (which was in Socrates' last drink) is an equally dangerous curare-type neurotoxin which causes respiratory paralysis. Both are not hallucinogenic.

I can't remember the name of the scientist who first (re-)discovered the effects of the witches' ointment by self-administration. IIRC it was a German in the 1920s. He tried several recipes and died as a consequence that purportedly can be ascribed to aconitine poisoning.

In this most interesting read the author suggests that alkaline ingredients not only increased the topical absorption rate of the tropane alkaloids but "could have affected the hydrolytic cleavage of the toxic constituent aconitine to the less harmful derivative aconine, thereby reducing the potential toxicity of the salve".

Also I remember reading about pillows made from toloache leaves (Brugmansia candida) by South-American natives which are said to give erotic dreams. According to the above article "tropane alkaloids are slowly absorbed through the skin and that absorption is enhanced by inducing inflammation, creating abrasions, or by using a substance that would create an alkaline environment." Proceed with caution

On a side-note, according to ethnopharmacologist Christian Ratsch the popular low-fermentation pilsener beer didn't derive its name from the -once German, now Czech- town of Pilsen/Pilzn where it was first mass-produced at the end of the 19th century. He claims the name is derived from the medieval German name for henbane: "pilsenkraut" (pilsen meaning "imagine, to fantasize, to have a vision") and that the original pilsener was brewed with henbane instead of hops.

Read up more for the recipe and a description of the effects:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/alcohol/alcohol_brew.shtml
Again, proceed with caution

madg - 22-10-2006 at 20:40

I'm just a undergrad student and do not understand much of the things discussed here. But one thing made me curious here.

.

Quote:

Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Never make tea out of tomato plant green parts, nor with tobaco or potatos green parts...

Having nothing to cook as vegetable in a vegerarian family, my mom had several times cooked young shoots of potatoes for us. If 'making tea' means boiling into soup, then from my experience, potato shoots do not give any 'high'.

Would you please explain more on what you mean?

not_important - 22-10-2006 at 22:41

Quote:

Originally posted by madg
I'm just a undergrad student and do not understand much of the things discussed here. But one thing made me curious here.

.

Quote:

Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Never make tea out of tomato plant green parts, nor with tobaco or potatos green parts...

As chance would have it, this was recently discussed http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3049

Wikipedia actually has decent coverage of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine

I believe, but can't say this is true, that solanine contributes to the bitter, burning or peppery taste of green potatoes.

Making tea, in the general sense, is extracting plant material with hot or boiling water; similar meat extracts were also once called 'tea' as well, as 'beef tea', but that usage has become rare over the last century.

Solanine can cause hallucinations, perhaps better described as delirium, but it isn't a recreational drug; think of it as more like having a really high fever and bad stomach flu at the same time. I know someone who, as a novice 'hippy farmer' harvested their potatoe crop in the Fall but neglected to store them away quickly, and of course didn't use any inhibitors on them. They made potatoe soap from the last few left outdoors, and refused to eat potatoes in any form for at least a score of years.

Elawr - 23-10-2006 at 16:49

The belladonna alkaloids, while toxic, are also very useful medically. Atropine, hyoscyamine, and scopolamine are just a few examples. All of the these possess some degree of anticholinergic activity, and differ in terms of pharmacodynamics such as soluibility in fats and receptor specificity. For example hyoscyamine is particulary active peripherally, making very useful for colic, or cramping pains from irritation and spasm of smooth muscle within the stomach, intestine or urinary tract. Atropine has a strong cardiovascular effect, making it valuable in treatment of bradydysrrythmias (dangerousl slowing of heart rate). Scopolamine has a particular affinity for the central nervous system, and it is responsible for a lot of the toxic delirium seen with belladonna poisoning. These are veryi] potent - for example, the max dose of atropine used medically is only 2 mg, and as little as 0.2 mg has noticable effect. The dose for dangerous toxicity is not much higher. Toxic doses have a long half-life, so that if you ingest Jimsom Weed or datura, you are going to be badly messed up for days.

It is said the the name belladonna derives from Italian and means "beautiful lady". Apparently the plant at one time was used by females for cosmetic reasons. It was known that applying the plant juices to one's eyes would induce profound mydriasis (dilation of the pupils) that could last for days. This was supposed to make a gal look prettier to the guys, even though she'd also probably be blind as bat! We use this effect medically as well to dilate the pupils for opthalmoscopic examinations, and to relieve painful spasm of the iris muscle from eye disorders like uveitis.