Sciencemadness Discussion Board - I need to dissolve Bakelite :)

I need to dissolve Bakelite :)

Wizzard - 4-5-2011 at 08:00

Can anybody offer any suggestions? I have found NOTHING online. I need to gain access to the substrate of an SD card, behind a mm or two of Bakelite.

#maverick# - 4-5-2011 at 08:04

i kno that when it is heated it chars and decompses, but to dissolve it i honestly do not know

Neil - 4-5-2011 at 08:08

Have you tried acetone?

Bakelite "A" - the initial product of condensation. In normal temperatures remain in the liquid easily movable, viscous, pasty or solid form. Solid Bakelite "A" with a normal temperature brittle as rosin. Soluble in alcohol, acetone, glycerin, phenol and sodium hydroxide solution, and mixed with these substances in all proportions. If carefully (at low heat) to melt a solid product, he, being cooled, again transformed into a solid product, while maintaining the ability to dissolve in the above solvents. Bakelite "A" is in color from colorless to yellow. If heated bakelite "And" is stronger then it goes into Bakelite "B", which is an intermediate product for infusible and insoluble product. Bakelite "B" - in normal conditions, hard and brittle, but somewhat more durable than hard Bakelite "A". It differs from Bakelite "A" that in the above solvents will not dissolve. In acetone, phenol and terpeneole just swell. When heated does not melt, but greatly softened, turning into a rubbery plastic, which when cooled again become hard and brittle. In heated form, the mass is located in a plastic state, with further heating, under certain conditions, it hardens again, and reaches the ultimate degree of condensation, making infusible and insoluble product - Bakelite "C". Bakelite "C" - the end product of condensation, infusible, insoluble in all solvents. If the primary condensation product is heated to 100 °, the violent reaction occurs with the liberation of gaseous products and the resulting Bakelite "C" will be in the form of a sponge or a bubble of mass and, consequently, for many technical applications fail. Therefore, the heating must be done cautiously. Usually obtained Bakelite "A" in solid form is ground into powder and mixed with the appropriate filling substance and form in heated hydraulic presses.

Taken from: http://www.lformula.com/index.php?part=him007&page=029

Edit; it is suggested on some radio forums that Spray 409 will dissolve Bakelite to some extent. Several jewllery sites have warnings about avoiding the use of spray 409 and similair cleaning products on bakelite because of the surface damage they may cause.

Spray 409 MSDS
http://baltimoreprintstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/...

Electrical etching solutions have been reported to attack Bakelite when it was used as a mounting material, but I assume that they would destroy the chip.

This patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3831269.html Claims to use "Bakelite dissolved in methyl alcohol and amyl acetate. "

It is also supposed to readily dissolve into molten Selenium OxyBromide

[Edited on 4-5-2011 by Neil]

m1tanker78 - 4-5-2011 at 08:27

Warm brake fluid might do the trick. It won't truly dissolve it but it will make it very very brittle. Note that this is on the assumption that the 2 items I tested this with were bakelite. I have no data and there are no markings on them to indicate what they were made of.

Tank

blogfast25 - 4-5-2011 at 08:49

Being a thermoset material it is basically unmeltable and insoluble (in EVERYTHING). The three dimensional crosslink structure of bakelite means a piece of bakelite is basically one giant molecule. The only way to dissolve this is to break it down (usuallly thermally) first...

Any 'bakalite solutions' reported in the literature are solutions of the uncured (non-polymerised) material, not of the final, thermoset stuff.

[Edited on 4-5-2011 by blogfast25]

bahamuth - 4-5-2011 at 09:01

Only thing I know of that destroys Bakelite is sulfuric acid.

Perhaps hot phenol might do the trick, though this is only a speculation from my side...

Wizzard - 4-5-2011 at 09:16

Ah, I've tried xylene (up to 100*C) and acetone (also up to 100*c). Just doesn't cut the mustard- Not even a slight etching!

I can't use any good acids, I need the copper and the substrate to remain intact

But thanks for all the replies thus far!

bahamuth - 4-5-2011 at 10:01

Last page in this long "Lecture" on phenol/formaldehyde polymers might give some tips on how to destroy the Bakelite.

Really think you need to heat it in a "solvent" to around 250-300 degrees Celcius, m1tanker78 mentioned warm brake fluid.

Not the silicon based, but the glycol ethers might do, dissolved the paint on my car even...

Neil - 4-5-2011 at 10:41

What about targeting the adhesive? have you tried boiling water?

blogfast25 - 4-5-2011 at 12:25

Bakelite is a polymer held together by methylene (-CH2-) links, which form a three dimensional network, linking all monomers together. Unless you have something that’s capable of cleaving those methylene links bakelite will always resist dissolution. Polyglycols (brake fluid) will be laughed at: no chance, hot or cold…

bahamuth - 4-5-2011 at 12:42

My point was not to simply dissolve them in brake fluid, but thermally decompose the Bakelite in a sort of way, may not work but it should start decomposing at around 250-300 C as I mentioned.
Almost so I must go and try to dissolve some chips myself, this is exciting

IrC - 4-5-2011 at 13:12

I would try Methylene Chloride.

blogfast25 - 5-5-2011 at 04:50

Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth

My point was not to simply dissolve them in brake fluid, but thermally decompose the Bakelite in a sort of way, may not work but it should start decomposing at around 250-300 C as I mentioned.

It won't put much of a dent in it. Polymers that rely on -CH2- crosslinks (like EPM peroxide cured elastomers or bakelite) are routinely tested for temperature resistance at 250 to 300 C: degradation at these temperatures is usually still minimal.

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

I would try Methylene Chloride.

Which part of my explanation didn’t you understand: the “N” or the “O”? Bakelite’s chemical structure means dissolution is a concept that doesn’t even apply to this substance. Burn it or heat in aerobical conditions for prolonged times at 300 - 500 C (or higher) to turn it into stinky, black goo but that’s about all you can do with it…

Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth

this is exciting

Yeah, it's almost as exciting as building a perpetual motion machine: time consuming and as useful as fitting wheels to a tomato!

Have you ever tried dissolving diamont in something? It's an apt comparison...

[Edited on 5-5-2011 by blogfast25]

m1tanker78 - 5-5-2011 at 05:27

What is the point of gaining access to the core of an SD card, anyway? The only justification I see is for reverse engineering purposes. I remember reading up on a company that etches chips with the purpose of determining causes of failure. I don't remember the particulars but remember seeing images of an otherwise intact microchip with the guts exposed and unharmed by the etchant(s).

Or is this inclined to gold recovery?

Tanker

mr.crow - 5-5-2011 at 06:49

ICs do not use bakelite. They use glass filled epoxy resin. You dissolve the IC package in hot nitric acid and wash it away in acetone. This is documented on the Internet

Wizzard - 5-5-2011 at 09:40

@Blogfast- Diamond will dissolve in liquid oxygen at a few hundred degrees C

@m1- The goal is data recovery from a low-cost perspective. An employee of another company stepped on this, and put a nice crack across the back of the contacts- I think a trace is torn in there someplace, but I can't access it.

@mr.crow- That would also dissolve all the copper traces

[Edited on 5-5-2011 by Wizzard]

Neil - 5-5-2011 at 11:15

@ Blogfast - Ever see someone take a high speed diamond cutter to soft iron?

@ Wizzard Do you have a pin vise and a set of micro-drills? If you could locate the conductors, you could drill through to them.

not_important - 5-5-2011 at 12:43

I worked on this from the opposite direction decades ago for Carl Nicolai regarding making his crypto device difficult to reverse engineer. Phenol-formaldehyde resins loaded with B/Si/W/C compounds iswhat wecameup with.

Neil has the best solution, "simply" drill holes to make electrical contact.

There are no true solvents for cured p-f resins. Some penetrate the polymer network, softening it to some degree, but it's slow and often not that effective; if there's electronics inside their packaging may be more affected by the solvent than the p-f is. Fenton reagent type mixes and ozone will attack the aromatic ring, eventually cleaving the rings leading to degradation of the polymer network; however this is very slow because only the surface layer is attacked as the reagent can not penetrate into the 3D mesh.

watson.fawkes - 5-5-2011 at 12:54

Since this is for data recovery, and not just for fun or for learning, you'll want to practice on something else first. So regardless of what you try, first go get some other things like it and try them first. You don't want to be ruining your target device while learning how to do this.

FWIW, I really doubt the case is bakelite. It might not even be a thermoset resin. Many of those small-form storage devices are flexible enough to avoid breaking under a little stress.

Personally, I'd go with the tried and true nitric acid. Don't dunk your device in the acid, though, but drop it on bit by bit and scrape off the goop as the plastic degrades. Use an aluminum brush / scraper (say, from heavy gauge, stranded, Al wire) and concentrated nitric acid, which will degrade the Al less quickly (better passivation). You should be able to get down to the conductors without dissolving them.

m1tanker78 - 5-5-2011 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes

FWIW, I really doubt the case is bakelite. It might not even be a thermoset resin.

I agree with Watson; I also doubt if it's bakelite. The actual chip might be potted in a resin but I maintain that warm brake fluid should weaken the plastic case enough to carefully crumble it apart - hopefully exposing some usable traces. IMO, this is a better 'first option' than going straight to the nitric acid. AFAIK, BF won't attack any metallic components in the SD card but may weaken the potting(if any).

If you have a sacrificial SD (cheapies included w/ cameras or cell phones), it might be worthwhile to take some BF to 100-200*C and leave the card in it for a couple of hours. There shouldn't be any visible reaction but will become extremely brittle if you're lucky. Maybe test this on an old sim card or similar.

-OR- Do the above but suspend the SD card, exposing only the connector side to some warm BF to test it.

BTW, is it a standard SD or is it micro?

Tank

Panache - 5-5-2011 at 22:20

it likely simply hdpe, which unplasticised resists dissolution very effectively, boiling xylene would the trick after a couple of hours, an sd chip in a 100mL xylene for several hours under reflux, would be a place to start.

@blogfast amusing as a always. What makes you think the chip i encased in diamonds, is it like a pimping badass bling style platinum and diamond number, ever seen diamond thrust into the core of a neutron sun (i actually don't know what a neutron sun is hopefully its very hot). You would be withdrawing your 'doesn't dissolve easily' comment if you had, it almost instantly turns to a plasma, now that's dissolution.

@NI HELLO!!! Always a pleasure.

@panache omglrn2splnoob

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by Panache]

Wizzard - 6-5-2011 at 05:29

Alright, I did try boiling xylene, and boiling pure acetone which had no effect at all after 2 hours in either.

It's Micro-SD, and I don't know where the contact are so that I may drill them- But I do have access to the testing pins on the back, but I have no idea what they do.

blogfast25 - 6-5-2011 at 06:46

Panache:

‘Dissolving’ diamond in plasma is a bit like a removal company that takes a wrecking ball to your house, scoops up the sorry remains and then dumps the loose bricks and other debris in the new location

. It's definitely been MOVED! Dissolving can’t mean completely destroying. Even by dissolving a metal in acid you don’t actually destroy it. But dissolving thermosets is really akin to completely breaking them down, although it depends on the nature of the crosslinks…

Wizzard:

I really don't understand why you waste fine chemicals on this: look up the structure of bakelite!

ScienceSquirrel - 6-5-2011 at 07:17

Bakelite is not going to dissolve in anything.
A 1kg block of Bakelite is just one big molecule!
The only way to attack bakelite is with heat or strong and preferably oxiding acids.
I reckon acid Piranha would make short work of it but it would smash everything else as well and I would not want to be standing too close!

Wizzard - 6-5-2011 at 07:23

@Blogfast: I did look it up, it's all carbon and oxygen and hydrogen! I'm asking you guys cause I'm a professional PC tech, only an amateur hobby chemist!

ScienceSquirrel - 6-5-2011 at 07:32

The blunt answer is that there is not a solvent for Bakelite.
There are things like hot sulphuric acid that will smash it up in to smaller bits that will dissolve but it will do the rest of your device in as well!

Neil - 6-5-2011 at 11:01

The acetone Probably killed the chip anyways. Every time I've tried soaking a chip in acetone to remove resins and glues, the chip has died.

Diamonds dissolve in iron pretty easily, all things considered. If you take a diamond cutter to iron metal, the edges of the diamond dissolve under heat/pressure and you end up with polished diamonds which can't cut anything.