Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Legal to make <100g explosives in the UK for "experimental purposes"?

Legal to make <100g explosives in the UK for "experimental purposes"?

IndependentBoffin - 21-4-2011 at 15:36

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1082/part/3/made?vie...

Quote:

Explosives not to be manufactured without a licence
9.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no person shall manufacture explosives unless he holds a licence for that manufacture and complies with the conditions of that licence.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to —(a)the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or sale) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams, but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of those Regulations, without such a certificate;

So apparently for home enthusiasts it is legal to make and test explosives <100g for experimental purposes, but you aren't allowed to buy or store it, without a license.

Can anyone confirm if this is true?

I checked with my local explosives police liaison officer and despite several direct questions, he wouldn't give a straight answer. Waste of time, IMHO.

hissingnoise - 22-4-2011 at 04:35

The regulations clearly say you cannot legally manufacture explosives without a license.
If you have a license to produce, say PETN, then you can manufacture up to 100 gm of a different explosive for the purposes stipulated.

watson.fawkes - 22-4-2011 at 05:30

Quote: Originally posted by IndependentBoffin

Your interpretation seems correct. That doesn't mean it is. The problem with reading statute is that there is frequently language elsewhere that can change the meaning or interpretation of a particular passage. It really requires reading an entire statute or regulation to make sure you have the entirety of it. This is one reasons lawyers who work in a specialty are valuable; they've already got that entirety in their heads. I don't know if what you're doing is risky or valuable enough to get a legal opinion, nor am I familiar with UK legal procedure, but if you're not going to hire a lawyer, at least read the whole statute enough until you comprehend it. I'll remark, apropos this suggestion, that this statute is quite well written, particularly compared to some I've read.

Also, see section 23, particularly 23(1)(a). The conditions of this section read only on licensed facilities, but the spirit of the ordinance is apparent here.

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

The regulations clearly say you cannot legally manufacture explosives without a license.
If you have a license to produce, say PETN, then you can manufacture up to 100 gm of a different explosive for the purposes stipulated.

And it just as clearly lays out a number of exceptions where you don't need a license. I see absolutely no language to support this "alternate substance" interpretation you posit, especially since paragraph (1) begins with the preconditional phrase "Subject to paragraph (2)".

hissingnoise - 22-4-2011 at 08:56

The manufacture of explosives without authorisation is illegal in the UK!
And talking to cops about making explosives is unwise, to say the least . . .

unionised - 22-4-2011 at 09:14

As far as I can tell from those regulations it is legal to make explosives in small quantities for experimental purposes in the UK without a license.
That wouldn't stop the police arresting you for a breach of the anti terrorism laws.

a_bab - 22-4-2011 at 10:08

The UK 'under 100 gram" issue is simple: even if the law clearly states what seems too good to be true, there were some arrests made for way less then 100 grams of anything. Thinks some small fountains that lead to arrest and search warrant. Also I guess this law is about to change soon.

Calling the cops with such a question is indeed stupid, but only a acne filled teenager could have done this so they don't care. Also, it's not the police who you should ask in the first place, but a lawyer.

It all boils down to this: say you, a brit, are caught with "under 100 grams" of some energetic mixture. Will you have enough legal muscles OR money to prove your point? These things are terrible expensive, in any country, and once in the court is quite hard to persuade people all you wanted was some adrenaline as they cannot understand this. If you look odd or freak to your neighbours, you'll look downright dangerous, if not "terrorist" to them.

IndependentBoffin - 22-4-2011 at 10:40

Quote: Originally posted by a_bab

Calling the cops with such a question is indeed stupid, but only a acne filled teenager could have done this so they don't care. Also, it's not the police who you should ask in the first place, but a lawyer.

Well, given that I run a small company in the defence business, I thought the police would be a bit more helpful.

They weren't. All they did was ask for more details about me (address, name of company, etc.) and never give a straight yes/no answer.

At least I have not had any problems with them (yet), although an order of some 35% hydrogen peroxide was delayed for 2 months and some 70% nitric acid delayed by 1 month.

Lastly I am not a "stupid acne filled teenager".

IndependentBoffin - 22-4-2011 at 10:44

Quote: Originally posted by a_bab

Also, it's not the police who you should ask in the first place, but a lawyer.

The police will arrest you if they want and it is up to your lawyer to argue your case before a court.

The police's interpretation of the law is what determines whether you get into trouble or not. The lawyer's interpretation of the law, and the courts, will be what determines whether you get out of trouble.

Sedit - 22-4-2011 at 10:57

Your taking a serious risk that I hope you understand but given your disposition I do not think you do. The only thing you have going for you with the police is that you asked about making small amounts but the mear mention of explosive set up alarm bells, that you can be sure of. I do not know how it is around your area so perhaps im talking out my ass but around here I would be pretty sure they have ran that number to locate its source and someones curiosity in the local LE has gotten the better of them and they are looking into the guy that called about how legal it is for them to make a bomb. I sure hope you have no accent because around here that would more then likely put a serious target on your back for investigation.

IndependentBoffin - 22-4-2011 at 11:45

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit

Your taking a serious risk that I hope you understand but given your disposition I do not think you do. The only thing you have going for you with the police is that you asked about making small amounts but the mear mention of explosive set up alarm bells, that you can be sure of. I do not know how it is around your area so perhaps im talking out my ass but around here I would be pretty sure they have ran that number to locate its source and someones curiosity in the local LE has gotten the better of them and they are looking into the guy that called about how legal it is for them to make a bomb. I sure hope you have no accent because around here that would more then likely put a serious target on your back for investigation.

Can we all please focus on what the law says which is what the OP was about?

They can run the number if they want. I was perfectly up front with them about my business and reasons for my interest in making explosives. I have a perfectly clean record (not so much as a parking ticket), am a regular church goer, donate much to charity (with receipts) and have no serious personal problems. Any charge of terrorism or public mayhem offences will frankly be laughed out of court, if the police do not get accused of heavy handedness.

I never said I was asking how legal it is to make a bomb. I was asking them how legal it is to make explosives as per the quoted legislation.

[Edited on 22-4-2011 by IndependentBoffin]

Sedit - 22-4-2011 at 14:25

Ok man suit yourself but I fear you have a highly over optimistic view of the situation at hand thats all im saying. I can assure you there is no way it would get laughed out of court. Few would laugh at such a thing in this day and age.

IndependentBoffin - 22-4-2011 at 14:48

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit

Ok man suit yourself but I fear you have a highly over optimistic view of the situation at hand thats all im saying. I can assure you there is no way it would get laughed out of court. Few would laugh at such a thing in this day and age.

Here was the decision before me:
1) Try to do things quietly without the knowledge of the authorities. If they find out then they will be even more suspicious and alarmed.

2) Be up front about things and try to clarify matters with the authorities. They have less reason to be alarmed this way.

Frankly unless one goes through an inordinate amount of trouble to gather apparatus and chemicals quietly the authorities will find out. Reading from other threads even buying certain glassware these days will get their attention.

As a sidenote I have been toying with the idea about relocating my business to a country friendly to NATO with capitalist democracy, and laws more favourable for my interests - basically anything involving a large change in entropy. The bureaucratic and tax burden in the UK is quite excessive.

http://www.ifaonline.co.uk/ifaonline/news/2044500/cbi-uk-gro...

Quote:

Regulatory burden is a key 'investment blocker', according to the report, which cites the World Economic Forum as ranking the UK 89th out of 139 for having the biggest regulatory burden on business, on a par with Nigeria.

Maybe you guys are right and I will regret my decision. In any case I will let you all know if I run into any problems with the authorities.

Sedit - 22-4-2011 at 18:19

Quote: Originally posted by IndependentBoffin

Maybe you guys are right and I will regret my decision. In any case I will let you all know if I run into any problems with the authorities.

Please do keep us updated, I am very interested in how law enforcement deals with upfrontness. I personally don't think they give a rats ass and view everyone as guilty until proven innocent but thats just my disposition. If you see no further inquirys as to what your goals are I think it would be great but being a pessimist(sp?) I don't think they would leave this one alone.

IndependentBoffin - 23-4-2011 at 02:32

Yup, I will tell you all if any problems with the authorities arise. At which point you all will know if the authorities can't trust a guy with a legitimate business reason and a clean rap sheet to have a home lab, they frankly don't trust anyone and likewise should never be trusted.

Note that in my case as I am a one man (excluding subcontractors) startup company that will sell products, my first product which is a patented component in missiles, there is no way I can buy or sell anything without getting the attention of the authorities. Obviously I have to advertise the products for sale! And don't forget all patent applications with potential military applications are reviewed separately.

gregxy - 23-4-2011 at 10:14

It seems like involvement of the media and chemophobia is a big part of the problem. The media is always looking for a story. If a high school kid puts drano and tin foil in a bottle the media calls it bombmaking. If the story makes it into the papers, then LE is much more likely to charge you since they don't want to look like idiots and may enjoy the attention.

In the USA I did not see any federal laws prohibiting making an explosive compound. However if you put it in a container with a fuse it becomes a "destructive device" which is a felony.

State and local laws are often more restrictive the federal ones.

entropy51 - 23-4-2011 at 12:08

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy

In the USA I did not see any federal laws prohibiting making an explosive compound.

You can't possibly believe that. If you do, enter "federal law" and "manufacturing explosives" in Google. You will quickly find the federal explosives regs.

The regs say this:

§ 842. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in explosive materials without a license issued under this chapter;

(h) “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use.

I think we are talking felony.

IndependentBoffin - 23-4-2011 at 12:31

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy

In the USA I did not see any federal laws prohibiting making an explosive compound.

Crikey. The laws sure are strict in the USA. I thought they were bad in the UK. At least you guys can keep your pistols, unlike the UK.

What exactly is defined as an explosive material under your laws? Does it have to be a detonateable substance or do propellants (e.g. rocket candy), deflagrants (e.g. black powder, zinc-sulfur), etc. classify as explosives as well?

entropy51 - 23-4-2011 at 12:35

Quote: Originally posted by IndependentBoffin

What exactly is defined as an explosive material under your laws? Does it have to be a detonateable substance or do propellants (e.g. rocket candy), deflagrants (e.g. black powder, zinc-sulfur), etc. classify as explosives as well?

See the long list starting on page 91 of the PDF I linked to. And they say "including but not limited to" the stuff on the list.

IndependentBoffin - 23-4-2011 at 12:39

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

Quote: Originally posted by IndependentBoffin

See the long list starting on page 91 of the PDF I linked to. And they say "including but not limited to" the stuff on the list.

So basically if you have a bag of flour in your kitchen or coal dust in your coal cellar in your house you can be done for having the ingredients necessary to make a fuel-air bomb.

Rogeryermaw - 23-5-2011 at 23:41

actually in the u.s., black powder and propellants and the like would generally fall under the category of fireworks manufacture which is also illegal without a license.

taken from: http://www.fireworks.com/safety/homemade-fireworks.asp

Quote:

Illegal Explosives
Illegal explosives have been outlawed by federal law since 1966. The laws against such dangerous devices are enforced by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (ATF), and the mere possession of such items can result in your being federally prosecuted with substantial monetary penalties and jail time attached to a conviction. In addition to the criminal aspect of possession of such items, they are very dangerous, and you subject yourself and those around you to severe injury if you use these items.

For instance, one of the standards enforced by the CPSC is called the "fuse burn time" standard. The fuses on the fireworks products must burn a minimum of three (3) seconds and a maximum of nine (9) seconds. Imagine the recipe for disaster that presents itself when you have an illegal explosive like an M-80 or Cherry Bomb with much more pyrotechnic charge than is permitted by law coupled with a fuse that doesn't burn the minimum three (3) seconds. You may be presented with a situation that will not allow you enough time to light the illegal explosive and get it away from you. That is how people get fingers blown off and sustain even worse injuries.

Illegal explosives are not fireworks. They can contain hundreds times more pyrotechnic loading than the legal firecrackers. For instance, by definition and federal law, a legal firecracker can contain no more than 50 milligrams of pyrotechnic composition. A full-dose aspirin typically contains 325 mg. of composition, therefore the pyrotechnic composition in a legal firecracker is actually less than one sixth (1/6) the size of a full dose aspirin.

Compare this to what is commonly referred to as a M-80, which contains approximately 7 grams of powder, about 140 times the legal limit. M-100s contain about 20 grams of powder, about 400 times the legal limit. Other unsafe items include cherry bombs and sparkler bombs.

The illegal explosives are easy to recognize, because they will be somewhat primitive in their appearance and will have no labeling or warnings on them at all. Warning labels are required on all fireworks products by federal law. If you become aware of any person selling or using these illegal explosives, please call the ATF Hot Line to report this illegal activity at: 1-888-ATF-BOMB.

be careful

psycollogical - 26-7-2012 at 15:40

i have seen how warped the leagal system is in thiss country (uk).
a close frend of mine is looking at anywere up to 14 years for posessing 2-3 gramms of low explosive and a few raw chemicals (like sulpur and potasium nitrate). the mear suggestion that a person posessing such chemicals MUST be planning a terrorist act is the prosicutions first and only thaught. and as far as being a God fearing church going person that is irrelivent to the leagal system, you may as well be saying to them ''you sacrifice children on thursdays''! they only hear what they want to hear
and as far as innocent until provan guilty goes, that flew out of the window as soon as the 1st newsreader said taliban all those years ago.

mineralman - 26-7-2012 at 19:28

WHAT, I have way more potentially dangerous chems laying around then that. The police seemed more interested in the ammonium nitrate fert/spare deisal can and other potential high explosives constituants. man was I lucky MM

Swede - 28-7-2012 at 06:22

There are tens of thousands of people in the USA openly making fireworks, right on up to 12" mortars and the like. And they have no license.

The primary legal issues are transportation, and storage. Sale is strictly forbidden w/o a license.