Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Liquid primaries

Yorty2040 - 24-6-2024 at 15:18

The only liquid primary I'm aware of for sure is dimeric MEKP. Dugan mentioned a liquid version of NAP resulting from performing the synthesis in ethylene glycol as a solvent, but I haven't seen any images or tests, let alone data on it.

I'm curious if there are any others, especially ones that detonate unconfined. Perhaps ionic liquids with a chlorate or perchlorate counterion?

[Edited on 25-6-2024 by Yorty2040]

dettoo456 - 24-6-2024 at 16:59

The organic perchlorates are primaries, though extremely sensitive and unstable at STP. Longer chain and branched paraffins or olefins like isobutyl or allyl perchlorate may be liquid primaries that are more stable.

NG is also practically a primary, though cannot DDT from flame contact alone AFAIK. Sensitized NG (not a great idea to do) with N2O4, MeONO2, HClO4, etc might be able to DDT in direct flame contact.

Ionic liquids are usually far too bulky and insensitive, and even something like ClO4- or ClO3- wouldn’t likely be enough to sensitize them.

Part of the problem with liquid primaries, or the lack thereof, and liquid fuels in general as EMs, is the barrier to initiate phase change to a gas to promote combustion and the low densities they exhibit (which raises their heat capacity/insulating properties to heat). They really need a ‘shock’ to begin decomposition, or a solid or gas somewhere in their physical matrix to raise densities (of the liquid as a whole) and create “hot-zones” that can promote decomposition reactions to take place.


[Edited on 25-6-2024 by dettoo456]

Yorty2040 - 24-6-2024 at 17:17

Oh right, I forgot about the perchlorate esters. I guess since they're almost impossible to use they slipped my mind.

Microtek - 26-6-2024 at 23:43

As dettoo says, the lack of voids in a liquid energetic, makes ddt very inefficient. That means that it must be compensated with higher sensitivity to be used as a primary.
Of course, a liquid primary wouldn't be very practical IMO, and that may explain why very little research has been done on the topic.

Fulmen - 27-6-2024 at 13:35

There are ways of introducing voids in liquids. But I agree, this sounds like a solution looking for a hand to blow off.

UndermineBriarEverglade - 1-7-2024 at 17:47

You're looking for a room-temperature liquid right? ETN is effectively a primary once melted and appears to detonate unconfined in Dugan's videos. I thought about putting some in a capsule and then melting with a nichrome coil or flame to detonate.

OneEyedPyro - 1-7-2024 at 19:00

I recall seeing an old YouTube video where the guy added MEKP to nitroglycerin before being mixed with nitrocellulose to make gelignite, I'm not sure if MEKP and NG will even go into solution with each other to be honest. Apparently, this dramatically increases VoD since NG/NC has a counter-intuitively low VoD.

Assuming they are miscible, I'd guess adding some amount of NG to MEKP could add power and some stability while still undergoing DDT at small diameters. This is entirely conjecture though.

With that said. Liquid EMs have always been a nightmare to work with for me, I can't think of a reason to use a liquid primary (let alone MEKP) for anything practically speaking.

chornedsnorkack - 2-7-2024 at 12:32

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456  
The organic perchlorates are primaries, though extremely sensitive and unstable at STP. Longer chain and branched paraffins or olefins like isobutyl or allyl perchlorate may be liquid primaries that are more stable.

NG is also practically a primary, though cannot DDT from flame contact alone AFAIK.

Of well known classics that are easily (and often unintentionally) produced, how about NCl3? How does the detonation sensitivity of NCl3 as primary compare to NG?

[Edited on 2-7-2024 by chornedsnorkack]

dettoo456 - 3-7-2024 at 17:48

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456  
The organic perchlorates are primaries, though extremely sensitive and unstable at STP. Longer chain and branched paraffins or olefins like isobutyl or allyl perchlorate may be liquid primaries that are more stable.

NG is also practically a primary, though cannot DDT from flame contact alone AFAIK.

Of well known classics that are easily (and often unintentionally) produced, how about NCl3? How does the detonation sensitivity of NCl3 as primary compare to NG?

[Edited on 2-7-2024 by chornedsnorkack]


NCl3 is hilariously sensitive (at least in large amounts) and easily achieves fast DDT through mild heat, flame contact, friction, impact, and even free-radicals/high energy photons in UV light (sunlight). In small quantities though, I cannot vouch for its DDT characteristics.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6I6zbiHyf-A

dettoo456 - 3-7-2024 at 17:50

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456  
The organic perchlorates are primaries, though extremely sensitive and unstable at STP. Longer chain and branched paraffins or olefins like isobutyl or allyl perchlorate may be liquid primaries that are more stable.

NG is also practically a primary, though cannot DDT from flame contact alone AFAIK.

Of well known classics that are easily (and often unintentionally) produced, how about NCl3? How does the detonation sensitivity of NCl3 as primary compare to NG?

[Edited on 2-7-2024 by chornedsnorkack]


NCl3 is hilariously sensitive (at least in large amounts) and easily achieves fast DDT through mild heat, flame contact, friction, impact, and even free-radicals/high energy photons in UV light (sunlight). In small quantities though, I cannot vouch for its DDT characteristics.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6I6zbiHyf-A