Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Chemical computers/Chemical electronic devices

khlor - 2-7-2023 at 08:13

Hello, Exotic devices have since long been a passion of mine for ages, in fact I'm not sure if I should post this to technochemistry or here, for instance... it will get clearer as I expand my insane reasoning or lack thereof.

Hello again My fellow molecular manipulators, I heard of chemical computers for a long time, but everytime I make up some time to savor my curiosity all I find are vage white papers and some russian stuff. I tried looking for electronic(electrochemical devices) but little to no avail, all I found was small pieces here and there about dimmer made with water salt and a graphite rod, I also found something about a rectifier made iwth aluminium(https://simplifier.neocities.org/rectifier) anode. I hope all can see what I'm getting at here... I do love electronics and exotic electronics, I do have some vacuum tubes to do experiments with, yes in this day and age... but I'd like to step up my game in the uncommon, for the sake of fun. so I ask, have any of you seen anything like it? any resources of chemical computers and the integration of chemistry, in special electrochemistry(inorganic/ionic stuff) devices, I don't know, transistors, switches, diodes anything at the intersection between electricity, electronics, chemistry and electrochemistry. variable resistors, memrirstors(I've seen some here :http://sparkbangbuzz.com/memristor/memristor.htm )

I want sugestions, tips and if possible learn new tricks. stuff that ios practical in a home lab environment. I hope I managed to convey what I want in an understandable manner, though if not, please ask questions and I'll try my best to clarify it.

Sulaiman - 2-7-2023 at 08:50

Most electronic devices rely on physics rather than chemistry,
the only chemical devices that I use for electronics are
A Weston standard cell for a voltage reference
and batteries.

Halogen lamps rely on chemistry (and of course physics)
Chemical etching of pcb copper sort of qualifies

Some equipment has a device to indicate total time powered up, based on electrolysis
Attachment: Mercury Elapsed Time indicator RS.pdf (57kB)
This file has been downloaded 327 times

khlor - 2-7-2023 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Most electronic devices rely on physics rather than chemistry,
the only chemical devices that I use for electronics are
A Weston standard cell for a voltage reference
and batteries.

Halogen lamps rely on chemistry (and of course physics)
Chemical etching of pcb copper sort of qualifies

Some equipment has a device to indicate total time powered up, based on electrolysis




that is very true, that is why I'm looking for it, because it is interesting, unique, that time indicator, is a fine example of what I'm looking for. I mean, the concept of electroplating/electrofoming would allow for dynamically changing circuits, it is just a concept I got a few years ago, but never matured enough for me to have something to try. I may be considering something impossible or impractical, but... what I'm after here is fun, and stuff like this appeals a lot to me. but anyway, thanks for your reply and the valuable info on that pdf does confirm to some extent that I'm not that insane, though what I've imagined is yet to be seen. still a step at the time.

Sulaiman - 2-7-2023 at 15:47

Moving ions around is inherently much slower than moving electrons around,
so electrochemical systems seem to me to be suitable for detecting/measuring/monitoring slowly changing variables,
and/or controlling slowly operating devices
(eg indicators, displays and maybe electromechanical devices)


PS just a thought, that may help you to avoid rabbit holes;
with solid state devices, speed is usually limited by
dV/dt = I/C
so to go fast you need:
large currents - which cause heating/power loss
small capacitance - which limits size hence current carrying capabilities
small dV - which requires low voltage operation

You can equally consider speed being limited by
I(avg) = F.dQ and dQ = dV.C

Rainwater - 2-7-2023 at 16:29

Once a crystal lattice is constructed, chemistry, for the most part, doesn't play a role anymore in the function of electronics. It does however explain most component failure that is do to excessive heat or current. Oxide layers rearrange themselves, changing the desired structure, liquid filled capacitors undergo decomposition reactions. Tin likes to reform and grow fine hairs that shortout connections. There are even gasses that penetrate the protective plastic and change the propertys of semiconductors.

Years ago we build a plc system that was quite nice, very profitable. But was to be used in a hazardous environment, for extra protection, we used argon to fill the compartment containing the high voltage contacts. After a few minutes of testing, each and every relay was welded closed. Very bad day. Damaged a lot of equipment. The culprit was "cold welding". After the contacts were worked, the normal arcs removed the oxide layers, providing a perfectly clean surface, and presto, the 2 contacts became 1 solid peace of metal

Twospoons - 2-7-2023 at 18:54

Sensing would be the biggest crossover of chemistry and electronics I can think of. eg pH and ORP probes, and the various gas detectors available (CO, CO2, O2, H2S, SO2, VOCs etc ). So maybe you could try to create a computation based around generation and sensing of chemical compounds in some kind of mad chemistry/electronics mash-up.

teodor - 3-7-2023 at 00:23

Few years ago I participated in a startup which is making a new kind of CPU based on mixed chemical/physics effects. In reality it is 99% chemistry but some physics also. I unable to say what is the technology is (NDA) but I am able to say that this field is very wide for anybody who wants to explore it. The most challenging is to go from theory to working device and it costs investor's money.
I don't know wether they posted new info besides this: https://www.intelnn.com/

As for me the most challenging problem of any chemical processor could be the number of operation it can perform before the structure can degrade and I think the most battle would be around this.

khlor - 8-7-2023 at 15:33

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Moving ions around is inherently much slower than moving electrons around,
so electrochemical systems seem to me to be suitable for detecting/measuring/monitoring slowly changing variables,
and/or controlling slowly operating devices
(eg indicators, displays and maybe electromechanical devices)


PS just a thought, that may help you to avoid rabbit holes;
with solid state devices, speed is usually limited by
dV/dt = I/C
so to go fast you need:
large currents - which cause heating/power loss
small capacitance - which limits size hence current carrying capabilities
small dV - which requires low voltage operation

You can equally consider speed being limited by
I(avg) = F.dQ and dQ = dV.C


Interesting... but apologies, I would like to say my calculus is a bit rusty, however, I am ashamed to admit that my calculus is inexistent. I knew that skipping a lot of math would come back to bite my behind, and here I am, thanks for the tip though.

khlor - 8-7-2023 at 15:50
Quote:

Once a crystal lattice is constructed, chemistry, for the most part, doesn't play a role anymore in the function of electronics. It does however explain most component failure that is do to excessive heat or current. Oxide layers rearrange themselves, changing the desired structure, liquid filled capacitors undergo decomposition reactions. Tin likes to reform and grow fine hairs that shortout connections. There are even gasses that penetrate the protective plastic and change the propertys of semiconductors.

Years ago we build a plc system that was quite nice, very profitable. But was to be used in a hazardous environment, for extra protection, we used argon to fill the compartment containing the high voltage contacts. After a few minutes of testing, each and every relay was welded closed. Very bad day. Damaged a lot of equipment. The culprit was "cold welding". After the contacts were worked, the normal arcs removed the oxide layers, providing a perfectly clean surface, and presto, the 2 contacts became 1 solid peace of metal


As Rainwater said, hes, sadly most electronics rely on chemistry up to production phase only, instead operation. And when cbemistry is involved in the operation it has more to do with support and maintenance. Still, can give me some ideas to try....
Quote:

Sensing would be the biggest crossover of chemistry and electronics I can think of. eg pH and ORP probes, and the various gas detectors available (CO, CO2, O2, H2S, SO2, VOCs etc ). So maybe you could try to create a computation based around generation and sensing of chemical compounds in some kind of mad chemistry/electronics mash-up.


True, and it will be even more relevant in the future with computers doing basically everything
Quote:

Few years ago I participated in a startup which is making a new kind of CPU based on mixed chemical/physics effects. In reality it is 99% chemistry but some physics also. I unable to say what is the technology is (NDA) but I am able to say that this field is very wide for anybody who wants to explore it. The most challenging is to go from theory to working device and it costs investor's money.
I don't know wether they posted new info besides this: https://www.intelnn.com/

As for me the most challenging problem of any chemical processor could be the number of operation it can perform before the structure can degrade and I think the most battle would be around this.


Now this is close to the meat and potatoes of the frankenstein monster I am looking for... I wanted to find something that is "non-solid-state" electronics, it didn't needed to be chemical (bonus if it is) hence why I did researched even vacuum tubes... I don't know, alternatives to solid state, a "liquid-state" electronics if that is or even can be a thing. Very interesting, reminds me of my time about 5 years ago obsessing over artificial neurons and came across an electrochemical model cor that, all theoretical, haven't seen such contraption. However I spent weeks just imagining all the implications of degradation, like batteries over time, electrode corrosion, malformations on the recharge state, solution and everything alike... kinda like and artificial organism without capabilities for self renovation and correction. Still... sometimes I catch myself day dreaming of the possibilities.

Thanks for all replies, each and everyone of you brough something for me to think about. And if there is more, please, post it here.

Johanson - 8-7-2023 at 18:13

The "integration of chemistry and electronic devices" (from your original post) is exemplified by batteries and integrated circuits. The subject of 'batteries' is so broad it will keep you occupied for a lifetime. If you expand it to include "energy production and storage" it will keep you busy for 10 lifetimes.
The pioneers in developing modern IC's were chemical engineers; practically the entire IC manufacturing process is chemistry on steroids Why don't you make your own, simple, integrated circuit? There is lots of chemistry involved....

mayko - 8-7-2023 at 18:18



If you haven't run across the Journal of Unconventional Computing or Adam Adamatzky, you might like their stuff. Some of it, like the voronoi "computer" from supersaturated sodium acetate, stretches the meaning of "computation" (one of the philosophical articles is titled, "If a tree casts a shadow, is it telling time?"). A lot of it is also theoretical or model-based, but I've picked out some things that have material, meat-space results. A lot of it involves reaction-diffusion systems like the BZ reaction.

Adamatzky, A. (2009). Hot ice computer. Physics Letters, Section A: General, Atomic and Solid State Physics, 374(2), 264–271. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.physleta.2009.10.072
Attachment: Adamatzky - 2009 - Hot ice computer.pdf (2MB)
This file has been downloaded 224 times

Adamatzky, A., Tsompanas, M. A., Draper, T. C., Fullarton, C., & Mayne, R. (2020). Liquid Marble Photosensor. ChemPhysChem, 21(1), 90–98. https://doi.org/10.1002/cphc.201900949
Attachment: Liquid Marble Photosensor.pdf (1.6MB)
This file has been downloaded 229 times

Asai, T., Kanazawa, Y., Hirose, T., & Amemiya, Y. (2005). Analog Reaction-Diffusion Chip Imitating Belousov-Zhabotinsky Reaction with Hardware. Journal of Unconventional Computing, 1(July), 123–147.
Attachment: Asai et al. - 2005 - Analog Reaction-Diffusion Chip Imitating Belousov-Zhabotinsky Reaction with Hardware.pdf (456kB)
This file has been downloaded 236 times

Crepaldi, M., Mohan, C., Garofalo, E., Adamatzky, A., Szaciłowski, K., & Chiolerio, A. (2023). Experimental Demonstration of In‐Memory Computing in a Ferrofluid System. Advanced Materials, 2211406, 2211406. https://doi.org/10.1002/adma.202211406
Attachment: Twenty five uses of slime mould in electronics and computing.pdf (146kB)
This file has been downloaded 253 times

Gruenert, G., Szymanski, J., Holley, J., Escuela, G., Diem, A., Ibrahim, B., Adamatzky, A., Gorecki, J., & Dittrich, P. (2013). Multi-scale modelling of computers made from excitable chemical droplets. International Journal of Unconventional Computing, 9(3–4), 237–266.
Attachment: Gruenert et al. - 2013 - Multi-scale modelling of computers made from excitable chemical droplets.pdf (3MB)
This file has been downloaded 278 times


Adamatzky in particular has done some cool stuff exploring the electronic and computational properties of living tissue, like slime molds. He also has a paper looking at oyster mushrooms as living memristors.

Adamatzky, A. (2013). Physarum wires: Self-growing self-repairing smart wires made from slime mould. Biomedical Engineering Letters, 3(4), 232–241. https://doi.org/10.1007/s13534-013-0108-9
Attachment: PHYSARUM WIRES.pdf (4.7MB)
This file has been downloaded 269 times

Adamatzky, A., Tarabella, G., Phillips, N., Chiolerio, A., D’Angelo, P., Nicolaidou, A., & Sirakoulis, G. C. (2023). Kombucha electronics. Scientific Reports, 1–10. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-023-36244-8
Attachment: Kombucha electronics- electronic circuits on kombucha mats.pdf (2.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 226 times

Beasley, A. E., Abdelouahab, M. S., Lozi, R., Tsompanas, M. A., Powell, A. L., & Adamatzky, A. (2021). Mem-fractive properties of mushrooms. Bioinspiration and Biomimetics, 16(6). https://doi.org/10.1088/1748-3190/ac2e0c
Attachment: Mem-fractive properties of mushrooms.pdf (4.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 279 times


Ozasa, K., Lee, J., Song, S., Hara, M., & Maeda, M. (2011). Implementation of microbe-based neurocomputing with Euglena cells confned in micro-aquariums. International Journal of Unconventional Computing, 7(6), 481–499.
Attachment: Implementation of Microbe-Based Neurocomputing with Euglena Cells Confined in Micro-Aquariums.pdf (642kB)
This file has been downloaded 276 times

Przyczyna, D., Szacilowski, K., Chiolerio, A., & Adamatzky, A. (2022). Electrical frequency discrimination by fungi Pleurotus ostreatus. Biosystems, 222(October), 104797. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104797
Attachment: Electrical frequency discrimination by fungi Pleurotus ostreatus.pdf (1.6MB)
This file has been downloaded 253 times



teodor - 8-7-2023 at 23:59

Basically, if I would make the research, I would try to build simple oscilators based on all known chemical or chemical/physical effects. Then I would try to increase the life of them and finally I would concentrate of technologies where there is a success of keeping the non-stopping oscilation longest time.

khlor - 9-7-2023 at 02:07

Quote: Originally posted by Johanson  
The "integration of chemistry and electronic devices" (from your original post) is exemplified by batteries and integrated circuits. The subject of 'batteries' is so broad it will keep you occupied for a lifetime. If you expand it to include "energy production and storage" it will keep you busy for 10 lifetimes.
The pioneers in developing modern IC's were chemical engineers; practically the entire IC manufacturing process is chemistry on steroids Why don't you make your own, simple, integrated circuit? There is lots of chemistry involved....


Believe me, how I wish that, though, many of the materials, waffers and stuff are not just inaccessible but those that are, are rather expensive to me, so a silicon cooking kit is a far cry from what I am able to manage living in the middle of nowhere(as per se) and having a monthly budget so small that it might as well be inexistent. Though I do have on my list an idea to get my hands on a microwave transformer and modify it to output lots of current to turn sand into silicon carbide to see if I can make LEDs, and also use of zinc sulfide or copper oxide I to make photocells, if I had a cheaper and more accessible alternative to silicon for that, it could be interesting l, too bad most of it is not as stable as silicon, not that making an IC and microscopic lithography is at my grasp, but starting with my own transistors would be nice
Quote: Originally posted by mayko  


If you haven't run across the Journal of Unconventional Computing or Adam Adamatzky, you might like their stuff. Some of it, like the voronoi "computer" from supersaturated sodium acetate, stretches the meaning of "computation" (one of the philosophical articles is titled, "If a tree casts a shadow, is it telling time?"). A lot of it is also theoretical or model-based, but I've picked out some things that have material, meat-space results. A lot of it involves reaction-diffusion systems like the BZ reaction.

Adamatzky, A. (2009). Hot ice computer. Physics Letters, Section A: General, Atomic and Solid State Physics, 374(2), 264–271. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.physleta.2009.10.072


Adamatzky, A., Tsompanas, M. A., Draper, T. C., Fullarton, C., & Mayne, R. (2020). Liquid Marble Photosensor. ChemPhysChem, 21(1), 90–98. https://doi.org/10.1002/cphc.201900949


Asai, T., Kanazawa, Y., Hirose, T., & Amemiya, Y. (2005). Analog Reaction-Diffusion Chip Imitating Belousov-Zhabotinsky Reaction with Hardware. Journal of Unconventional Computing, 1(July), 123–147.


Crepaldi, M., Mohan, C., Garofalo, E., Adamatzky, A., Szaciłowski, K., & Chiolerio, A. (2023). Experimental Demonstration of In‐Memory Computing in a Ferrofluid System. Advanced Materials, 2211406, 2211406. https://doi.org/10.1002/adma.202211406


Gruenert, G., Szymanski, J., Holley, J., Escuela, G., Diem, A., Ibrahim, B., Adamatzky, A., Gorecki, J., & Dittrich, P. (2013). Multi-scale modelling of computers made from excitable chemical droplets. International Journal of Unconventional Computing, 9(3–4), 237–266.



Adamatzky in particular has done some cool stuff exploring the electronic and computational properties of living tissue, like slime molds. He also has a paper looking at oyster mushrooms as living memristors.

Adamatzky, A. (2013). Physarum wires: Self-growing self-repairing smart wires made from slime mould. Biomedical Engineering Letters, 3(4), 232–241. https://doi.org/10.1007/s13534-013-0108-9


Adamatzky, A., Tarabella, G., Phillips, N., Chiolerio, A., D’Angelo, P., Nicolaidou, A., & Sirakoulis, G. C. (2023). Kombucha electronics. Scientific Reports, 1–10. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-023-36244-8


Beasley, A. E., Abdelouahab, M. S., Lozi, R., Tsompanas, M. A., Powell, A. L., & Adamatzky, A. (2021). Mem-fractive properties of mushrooms. Bioinspiration and Biomimetics, 16(6). https://doi.org/10.1088/1748-3190/ac2e0c



Ozasa, K., Lee, J., Song, S., Hara, M., & Maeda, M. (2011). Implementation of microbe-based neurocomputing with Euglena cells confned in micro-aquariums. International Journal of Unconventional Computing, 7(6), 481–499.


Przyczyna, D., Szacilowski, K., Chiolerio, A., & Adamatzky, A. (2022). Electrical frequency discrimination by fungi Pleurotus ostreatus. Biosystems, 222(October), 104797. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104797






Thanks mate, there are nice resources! Tree shadows do tell a lot!
Quote: Originally posted by teodor  
Basically, if I would make the research, I would try to build simple oscilators based on all known chemical or chemical/physical effects. Then I would try to increase the life of them and finally I would concentrate of technologies where there is a success of keeping the non-stopping oscilation longest time.


Sure, that would help on the degradation issue and sure new things and applications would pop up along the way.


Johanson - 9-7-2023 at 12:26

"....and having a monthly budget so small that it might as well be inexistent"
Okaaay... then why don't you use what's around you.
Brainstorming chemical-electrical ideas:
1. Invent an organic solar panel: Embed chlorophyll on a suitable substrate, capture the current generated by it, store it in a battery.
2. Speed up carbon capture: Increase the output of ATP synthase by optimizing the H+ gradient in mitochondria.
3. Make inexpensive grid power storage: Take one of the many microbe battery ideas out there, and scale it up.

Any of these would make you wealthy, qualify you for the nobel prize (and fast), and win the neverending praise and respect of your peers, and they all use readily available materials

khlor - 9-7-2023 at 14:42

Quote: Originally posted by Johanson  
"....and having a monthly budget so small that it might as well be inexistent"
Okaaay... then why don't you use what's around you.
Brainstorming chemical-electrical ideas:
1. Invent an organic solar panel: Embed chlorophyll on a suitable substrate, capture the current generated by it, store it in a battery.
2. Speed up carbon capture: Increase the output of ATP synthase by optimizing the H+ gradient in mitochondria.
3. Make inexpensive grid power storage: Take one of the many microbe battery ideas out there, and scale it up.

Any of these would make you wealthy, qualify you for the nobel prize (and fast), and win the neverending praise and respect of your peers, and they all use readily available materials


I see, well, that is something I can get behind. My deepest thanks Johanson, your sugestions were very helpful, not only in opening my eyes, but in giving me a sense of direction to help me in getting out of limbo, since I've been lost for a few months now wanting to do something, but not knowing what. And indeed everyone here pitched in. I am grateful to all you guys. Expect something new to pop up on Technochemistry, I will do my best to make it interesting.

teodor - 10-7-2023 at 01:29

There is plenty of ways how to build computer logic on top of a chemical reaction but to really beat the modern silicon technology we need to find a way to build a skeleton from molecules which will hold those molecules which performs the computation operations. In living cells the cell skeleton is also the essential part. So, we have 3 questions: how to build the molecular skeleton, how to attach or grow the required molecules in the designated parts of it, how to make the connections.
A lot of current researches are based on a "mechanical" way of "crystal" composition - 3D printing or similar. But those are already in pre-demo stage. So, as a scientific research the next step - the structures based on a molecular skeleton - is probably will pay the efforts.

teodor - 20-8-2023 at 00:22

The good review of the history of molecular electronics research.

Attachment: choi2009.pdf (734kB)
This file has been downloaded 230 times

khlor - 2-9-2023 at 10:01

Quote: Originally posted by teodor  
The good review of the history of molecular electronics research.


So there is a name for this? I read the review on the bus going to work this week, and I must tell, I am surprised, I mean, I am not arrogant enough to think I was the only one to think of it, but to think that Westinghouse, Raytheon, American Air force and Navy were involved in this, do tell volumes. Though their approach was different from what I imagined, their goal and what has been made is very close to what I imagine. Thanks for posting this, It has been a long time since I last had such pleasant reading.

teodor - 6-9-2023 at 01:12

khlor, it was your initial question as well as my small participation in molecular optoelectronics before which motivated me to continue studying of the field.
As you read in the review, there were different type of scientists involved. The review names 2-3 very good scientists and I would say their work are very interesting even if they don't have name "molecular electronic" on it. I would recommend to read everything written by Jean-Marie Lehn and Fritz Vogtle. They are also editors of several books.

There are also 2 books with recent reviews of everything which is related to molecular electronics:
- Supramolecular Chemistry (Steed, Atwood, 3rd edition 2022).
- Organic and molecular electronics, from principles to practice (M.C. Petty, 1st edition 2019)

The molecular electronic, I think, consists of three part: how to make basic elements (wire, transistor, logic, memory), how to assemble a device from elements and how thermodinamic and chaotic processes are involved.

The modern tendency is to operate a single molecule under the microscope, it is interesting but not suitable to production.
So, I think as a subject of study is very important the second part: how to assembly molecules to devices on a big scale.

I have opinion that any advance in the field will be achived with improving of computational methods and molecular self-assembly modelling software.


P.S. What is surprising, that the main ("iconic") figure who was driven the "molecular electronics" through 1970-1980, Forrest Carter doesn't have a dedicated article in wikipedia yet.

[Edited on 6-9-2023 by teodor]