Sciencemadness Discussion Board - NHN based improved primary composition

NHN based improved primary composition

papaya - 31-3-2023 at 13:04

I want to share my findings upon an interesting primary composition that
I started to develop a year and a half ago, and which was in my opinion a success!
It was tested over and over again, shows good stability and performance, is not very
sensitive to mechanical stimuly, while can easily be set off from the action of flame
even without strong confinement (large diqmeter plastic straw).

composition:
Nickel hydrazine nitrate 600mg
Sodium chlorate 400mg
Hard soap 20mg (plasticizer and fuel)

exact quantities are important!

preparation:
hard soap is scratched off from the soap bar until exact weight of it is collected, then is
mixed in dry state with NHN powder. Next a saturated solution of NaCLO3 is prepared in water
and the powder is soaked with it. Slurry is stirred until all soap is gone - a gel like substance will
form which is left to dry in plastic container at 50C. the cake is scrapped off without much fear,
pulverized carefully and stored.

properties: better version of NHN.. no extreme sensitivity, can be set off with hammer strong strike, but hardly by friction. still better to try yourself .Unlimited storage life tested for 1 year.

usage:
No strong metalic casings are neccesarry . Plastic staws + tape to close the hole.
But internal diameter must be at least 7mm, better 8mm. Hand loading and hand pressing.
Very brizant action, 1g is enough to fire AN based secondaries. recommended dosage 1g.

video report:

https://tube.tchncs.de/w/qoBowqADXsqM72cxcr35Ww

B(a)P - 31-3-2023 at 15:25

Any issues with it being hygroscopic? Have you tried with potassium chlorate or perchlorate? Thanks for sharing very interesting.
You can use the composition in your firing train or in the bath :-)

papaya - 31-3-2023 at 15:56

It is maybe as hygroscopic as the sodium chlorate itself, not more, first batches I've made were just air dried without any heating, and were just as fine. When stored in a plastac container for a year no noticeable changes were observed like cakeing or wetness, so I assume it has no problems with water under normal conditions. I've tried with potassium chlorate even before sodium, and it already showed some improvements which gave me the idea to experiment with sodium chlorate in solution -evaporation thing. potassium one was inconsistent - sometimes not working, but the exact reasons was never investigated - i think larger particle size of kclo3 is one possibility since no ball mill is used. Perchlorates are open area since I was too lazy and the magic powder already worked... so someone can try them. I've tried different ratios and the one presented here is the most brizant one. Aoso I have some untested theories why these type of modification works - you see NHN is not a simple stuff, it is inorganic polymer (why it is insoluble?) linked via hydrazine bridges and nitrate iones hanging around polymer chains neutralizing charge. So maybe it is more like ion exchange resin ??, and by soaking in chlorate solution we just exchange some part of nitrate with chlorate on the surface sites of NHN particles.. I Dont know, it must be tested some day - if just washing NHN with chlorate solution and then again rinsing by fresh water can change its properties. More questions than answers, but its only primary that i now consider for anything!

Herr Haber - 31-3-2023 at 18:33

Chlorate is probably being helpful by it's low decomposition temperature just as it is in 80/20 mercury fulminate / potassium chlorate since NHN is harder to ignite than many other primaries.
Perchlorate has a much higher decomposition temperature so it might not help as much.

Loved the soap idea

papaya - 1-4-2023 at 12:21

Thanks for interest, soap is added since it acts like water soluble "oil" go desensitize a bit, and to consume some oxigen.In the presence of a salt like naclo3 in this instance most of it salts out and the composition gets a bit thicker. Unfortunately adding more soap to make it oxygen balanced does more harm, sometimes burning like a rocket motor! As of mechanism of action I am not sure as I said, also it burns differently in open air compared to NHN - without visible bright flash and I think more aggressive(few mg only testsd). I wouldn't rule out perchlorates, especially maybe ammonium perchlorate worth testing. Chlorates are usually much more accessible though, which makes it a noteworthy primary.

[Edited on 1-4-2023 by papaya]

ManyInterests - 2-4-2023 at 08:51

I am an NHN guy and I find this quite interesting. I still have some NHN that I am keeping for further testing with ETN (I learned that plastic bodies don't work for good detonation of melt-cast ETN with NHN. I made a few more caps out of brass shell casings and stainless steel for further tests. The stainless steel caps are 1 gram melt-cast ETN, 0.3 grams of hand pressed ETN, and 0.5 grams of NHN).

B(a)P asked if potassium chlorate would work. I am actually interested in trying that out since I will be making potassium chlorate in the next month.

I did hear from others that aluminum powder also works as a good fuel. The actually ratio of NHN to aluminum powder is a trade secret, but from what they told me, when mixed at the correct ratio the NHN/al powder can detonate just about anything. This is something I plan on doing in the near future as well. If I can make caps out of a pure mono-material that are as powerful as #10 caps it would be great.

papaya - 2-4-2023 at 14:05

I think kclo3 most likely can be made to work, probably grinding chlorate as fine as possible then mixing with NHN, then wetting mixture with few drops of water to dissolve just a little bit of material and dry to cryslize it on whatever surfaces it wants to may do the trick. the nhn/chlorate ratio is 60/40 and internal diameter something like 8mm is needed, testing with 3-4mm almost always makes good rocket motors. About NHN/Al mixture - tried it just once with something like 10% aluminium and it didn't work, I felt that it even decreased burning speed, so not continued, I don't believe much into that. The intristic problem of pure NHN that i foun is that even under strong metal confinement when it apparently goes DDT - not the whole material reacts. If tested against solid metallic target theres always a fine pale violet colored dusting can be observed on that surface and that is unreacted nhn! with chlorate mixture no such indications were observed. But I think one should test on his own and get personal impression instead of many tales.

Raid - 2-4-2023 at 14:05

I have seen a patent saying something similar to this. The patent indicates the use of Potassium Chlorate in the ratio of 7:3 NHN/Chlorate. It is supposed to give it a better oxygen balance and give it less friction sensitivity.

I have tried it and it seems to work well.

papaya - 2-4-2023 at 14:11

less friction sensitivity must be a joke, since incorporating even inert but mechanicaly HARD materials always increases sensitivity. But I would like to see that patent, if you still have it.

Raid - 2-4-2023 at 14:28

i believe its on my phone, I'll have to upload it later.

Herr Haber - 2-4-2023 at 18:24

Adding a fuel such as Al to NHN seems pretty pointless.

You want something that will help the ddt so KClO3 in ratios to be determined seems the obvious choice.
Sodium chlorate is hygroscopic. Perchlorates have a much higher decomposition temperature. Let's rule them out.
Potassium chlorate decomposition temperature is low and exothermic therefore self sustaining. It has been used with mercury fulminate by the industry for decades to solve a similar if not identical problem.

What bothers me with your idea is that you use water. Granted, with the soap it's brilliant specially as a desensitizer. But your finely ground chlorate will then recrystallize in inconsistent crystal size which "ruins" something that was quite elegant

All the water, alcohol, acetone soluble binders that I can think of would get you a hard composition that would probably be more friction sensitive but at the same time would be ideal to make pellets in paper drinking straws.

papaya - 2-4-2023 at 23:37

Well I used water with sodium chlorate because I wanted the extra benefit of not hand-grinding chlorate separately - because without some measures you cannot guarantee simillar particle size every time and also it is a hassle . If small quantity of water is used just enough to dissolve all chlorate it will soak completely and make a rather thick paste, when the paste is spread in a thin layer it will lose water quick + the presence of flour likd nhn + gelatinous soap all this don't allow the big crystal size. Yes, it is not talcum powder at the end, but no mm sized crystals also, table salt texture in the worst case (which is still bad). But anyone can adotp this to his own technology and equipment - if you want to just grind and mix powders - do it and report back. About the roles chlorates and possible use of perchlorate - I'm not THAT sure the reason is chlorates' low decomposition temperature. pure NHN alone is extremely easy to set on fire itself, perhaps nhn has lower decomposition temperature than chlorate. maybe it is the extreme burning rate-pressure dependence of all chlorate based compositions.. maybe it is some initial chemical reaction between both in water where I believe some ion exchange of nitrate with chlorate can exist.. maybe it just wants to be OB positive in order to work.. It needs separate investigation on itself.

Raid - 3-4-2023 at 04:34

Okay, i found the patent and I uploaded it to transfer.sh
The part that talks about the chlorate addition to the NHN is at the bottom.

https://transfer.sh/dpLXRW/nhn1.pdf

Herr Haber - 3-4-2023 at 08:48

All good points. And if it works for you reliably, well, the objective is reached.
I havent felt the need to experiment with NHN mixtures but I've read quite a few reports of people having trouble with it going ddt that are very similar to 100 years old reports on mercury fulminate cap compositions.

Back to water, my first idea would have been to substitute your soap by arabic gum or dextrin. You still need water but much less. The result will be hard, so it probably be more sensitive to friction and impact. Not good.
Thinking about it, I would be surprised if no one tried matcheads + NHN which would essentially be the same.

Whenever I have a silly idea I do a Google / Youtube search.
This is essentially how I found ScienceMadness.org some 10 years ago

A user had patented an idea that occured to me 10 years later about a compound that was 150 years old by then. Proof it was still worth researching and that I was on the right track !

papaya - 3-4-2023 at 10:29

Quote: Originally posted by Raid

Okay, i found the patent and I uploaded it to transfer.sh
The part that talks about the chlorate addition to the NHN is at the bottom.

https://transfer.sh/dpLXRW/nhn1.pdf

Thanks again, but this is a research paper not a patent, which is even better - it gives more details and hopefully prevents this information from patenting. On the sensitivity figures they give - it seems 70/30 mixture is only twice as friction sensitive compared to pure NHN! Also decomposition temperature remains unchanged which means that the mixture is as chemicly stable as NHN itself(important for long storage life). Also it gives decomposition temperature for nhn about 210•C, which is less than for KCLO3, thus the thermal decomposition of KCLO3 is not the cause of sensitization in our case. Overall seems encouraging to me.

papaya - 3-4-2023 at 10:37

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

All good points. And if it works for you reliably, well, the objective is reached.
I havent felt the need to experiment with NHN mixtures but I've read quite a few reports of people having trouble with it going ddt that are very similar to 100 years old reports on mercury fulminate cap compositions.

Back to water, my first idea would have been to substitute your soap by arabic gum or dextrin. You still need water but much less. The result will be hard, so it probably be more sensitive to friction and impact. Not good.
Thinking about it, I would be surprised if no one tried matcheads + NHN which would essentially be the same.

Whenever I have a silly idea I do a Google / Youtube search.
This is essentially how I found ScienceMadness.org some 10 years ago

A user had patented an idea that occured to me 10 years later about a compound that was 150 years old by then. Proof it was still worth researching and that I was on the right track !

. I've actually tried to use thickeners like guar or xanthan, cannot remember which one exactly, yes, it gives hard cake, but I managed to pulverize it and load into usual casing. Results were bad - it just burned with a forcefull flame and noise, but no ddt, seemingly lost all the porosity like getting dead pressed. But this was 1-2 attempts only, dont want to discourage anyone from trying.

Raid - 4-4-2023 at 13:29

My bad, I call papers and patents the same thing sometimes

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-4-2023 at 23:01

If you want to create porosity, it is best to create granules, grain. Usually 1x1 mm for cavity filling. Proven mixtures for the formation of grains from NHN:
NHN + 3% styrofoam + solvent, slurry, sieve.
NHN + 5% nitrocellulose + acetone, slurry, sieve.
NHN + 20% ETN + acetone, slurry, sieve.
NHN + 5% Nitrocellulose + 15% ETN + acetone, slurry, sieve.

papaya - 7-4-2023 at 11:35

Here is a bonus footage of initiation power of this mixture towards a small AN-based Al powder free charge: https://tube.tchncs.de/w/gpp46CspXun62MtLz5cao5

papaya - 7-4-2023 at 11:43

Thwnks, Dr., but I like the consistency of final powder as it is,I cannot imagine how large grains will be compressed, or do you mean just a loose powder? thanks to small amount of soap this composition is easily compressible and then it holds itself inside the cavity, usually it proves good to strongly compress 80% of that powder and then on top of it the remainig 20% is lightly pressed and then fuse with plug inserted. No metal tubing is needed, no strong plugs, no ETN secondary addition - just plastic and thats it!

specialactivitieSK - 11-4-2023 at 05:02

ETN w NHN https://youtu.be/gfRm3acDgrs

papaya - 11-4-2023 at 14:52

Yeah, that's interesting for a secondary, I wonder how much nhn influenced the Performance of etn, maybe a bit due to density. But I doubt it can act as a primary on its own.

Raid - 19-4-2023 at 06:25

I did not know where to ask it, so i'll ask it in this thread.
Does anyone know of the effects of sulfate contamination in NHN?
Like what are the effects and does it decrease performance or just stop the NHN from working.

Also, what are some good prevention measures to stop or lower sulfate contamination.
One last thing, is there a way to rid sulfate contamination in already made NHN, I have tried washing it with lots of water but that does not seem to do much.

I have been having this problem when I tried to make bigger batches of NHN. The salt formed looks like NHN but is not energetic, It just kinda burns and forms carbon on continuous heating. Does anyone know how to stop this?

Other Note: If anyone finds any cheap hydrazine please contact me because I have been looking for soooo long.

karolus28 - 19-4-2023 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by Raid

Also, what are some good prevention measures to stop or lower sulfate contamination.

make NHN from hydrazine dihydrochloride, just turn your hydrazine sulfate to hydrazine dihydrochloride N2H6SO4 + CaCl2 = N2H6Cl2 + CaSO4 (tho im not sure if sometimes hydrazine monochloride forms which is quite soluable, after filtering you might need to add HCl to turn it into dihydrochloride) and proceed along with this thread https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...

Raid - 19-4-2023 at 09:42

I don’t have any calcium chloride, could i just use HCL?
Also, should i just use water for the reaction medium to convert the hydrazine sulfate to the chloride?

[Edited on 19-4-2023 by Raid]

ManyInterests - 30-7-2023 at 15:37

OK I am making some sodium chlorate, but I have a little bit left and enough for a blasting cap or two. I also have lots and lots of potassium chlorate, and as discussed above, It might work... and what I already did was grind my KClO3 into a fine powder. It has the consistency of flour. The sodium chlorate that I have is still very chunky (like kosher salt), but I can grind it up a bit more as needed, but it is so soluble that it won't be an issue.

The soap I assume is just normal hand soap? I can open a new unused bar and scrape off the required amount.

I will also use a metal container. I have some 8mm stainless steel tubes that should work for the task. If loading and pressing are not dangerous, then I will do that.

For drying, would it be OK to use a hot water bath? I can put them in a glass dish and put said dish in another larger dish. Or is that dangerous?

Or is it also possible to air dry it?

EDIT: I realize it can work, air drying that is, ditto with potassium chlorate. I'll try mixing 700mg of NHN with 300mg of potassium chlorate alone, then another one cap with the sodium chlorate and soap.

I got a lot of experimentation to do. I will need to bring along a test plate of some sort in order to test how good my caps are. I haven't set off any cap in a long time.

EDIT2: I made some, waiting for the slurry to dry. I might have used too much water since there didn't seem to be enough to get everything mixed, but I did mix everything with another 4ml (I originally just used a few drops, like 1ml). I let it settle at the bottom of a cardboard coffee cup. Going to let it air dry.

In the meantime, I mixed out another mixture of 30% potassium chlorate and 70% NHN (dry mix). Going to load them both in metal caps.

[Edited on 31-7-2023 by ManyInterests]

[Edited on 31-7-2023 by ManyInterests]

papaya - 31-7-2023 at 03:32

Soap is a security measure against friction as well as a fuel for chlorate as well a binder to compress the powder, so I would not recommend omitting it. Just keep the amount right - a little more soap will make it a great rocket engine. To a 1gram of mixture it was 20mg of dry soap if i remember correctly(the mixture is oxigen positive btw, the balanced mix is just burning usually). Use most basic hard soap with as less additives as possible. Next - metal container is not safe if youre going to hand press, inside metal cavity NHN may work alone very well, so what is the point of mixture then? Use plastic, especially when you dont have the sense of how sensitive a new mixture is. But internal diameter should be 7-8mm ! Then - among all proportions I experimented 60/40 nhn/naclo3 was most successful, 70/30 worked as well if I remember correctly. On sodium chlorate - yes I used that but without grinding it - just dissolved minimal amount of water then added to nhn/soap mixture, the soap gelled immediately! Then air dried, also dried at 40-50C, I dont know if boiling water is ok. Dont forget to test against metal targets, because not every boom is equal.

ManyInterests - 31-7-2023 at 09:45

I did initially make it in plastic pen bodies (bic round stick works) but those were 6 or 6.5mm ID, below the 7mm you recommended. I have the metal bodies that are 7mm Id and 8mm OD and I want to use them. I want to try to see if works.

All of my caps that I tested were in plastic bodies and that could explain their poor performance. Also the 6mm ID could have done it. Even ones I did with with 1 gram of melt cast ETN, 0.3 grams of powder ETN and 0.3 gram of NHN, those didn't give much of a report.

I did notice that I still had some 8mm ID caps, but they're only 50mm. I did load up a 7:3 mix of NHN:KClO3. I loaded a little over a gram (around 1.1g) of that mixture, tamped it down, and gave it a strong hand press. No mechnical pressing beyond that. But I was pleasantly surprised that the 50mm cap was able to hold that much. I think it would work well for a 0.5 gram melt-cast ETN and another 0.5g of NHN mix (possibly even the 7:3 NHN:KClO3. No point in NOT using the most powerful cap in as small a package as possible).

I barely had any space for my e-match. But I got it to fit. I need to wrap more electrical tape around it to stop it from wobblign around. Then I put in some instant cure epoxy around it in order to secure it in place and provide a seal. I also want to make sure that it doesn't seep in too deep and possibly interfere with ignition.

The sodium chlorate/NHN mix has evaporated enough for it to turn into a thick sludge. Perhaps another day will air dry it enough for me to load into a cap.

ManyInterests - 31-7-2023 at 12:19

An update. I made a 2nd mixture of mixture of sodium chlorate/soap/nhn (I am really running low on NHN! I need to make more!

) this time with less water and it did form a very nice sludge as described. I will let it air dry as well.

I made two potassium chlorate caps just get some nice tests. Maybe I will try to set off a small ammonium pictrate charge with one of them. But not after testing one vs a sodium chlorate one. I am praying that they'll be use as powerful as one another.

I also wonder how using a 0.5 gram mixture like that with a 1 gram melt cast ETN or 0.5 gram melt-cast ETN. I think a cap like that will be excessively powerful, which is exactly what I want!

papaya - 31-7-2023 at 14:59

Please be careful during manipulations, better test a small pile for friction sensitivity before hand (!) pressing into metal body, also epoxy curing may release a lot of heat so dont stay around if you go that way. Hope to see your report, successful or not, any input is important i think.

ManyInterests - 31-7-2023 at 15:19

It's fine. I was very gentle with the initial tamping. I did need to push some of the ETN that was on the side of the cap body, but it didn't need any force and I was very gentle with it. I did give it a good solid press (with gradual force not a sudden whack!) and that was all. I should have used a pair of plyers for it for additional safety though, so I agree.

The instant epoxy I use does not generate a lot of heat, so I wasn't too worried about it. I use that brand for sealing the tops of blasting caps. I don't really have a mechanically way of pressing them save for a C-clamp, but I think that would add undue pressure to the cap.

I hope to have a report ready soon

papaya - 31-7-2023 at 15:39

Wait, etn?? I thought you're going to test pure compositions first.. Nevertheless try to clearly document in the end which caps contained which substance how much and etc., and the results. Btw NHN/chlorate doesnt need MUCH pressure to compact it, may be overpressed(not tested), so just few kg of hand force is enough, just not to be free flowing, soap helps by acting like glue.

ManyInterests - 31-7-2023 at 16:35

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Wait, etn?? I thought you're going to test pure compositions first.. Nevertheless try to clearly document in the end which caps contained which substance how much and etc., and the results. Btw NHN/chlorate doesnt need MUCH pressure to compact it, may be overpressed(not tested), so just few kg of hand force is enough, just not to be free flowing, soap helps by acting like glue.

Yes I am going to test pure NHN/chlorate first before trying to go for something else. I got a lot of caps to test out this week when I take a trip.

I made pure NHN caps (no chlorates added) months ago, and I have some metal caps with large ETN/NHN fillings to also test.

And when I hand pressed them, they could not have been more than a few KG at most of pressure. I only give a press after I carefully tamp my composition in. I made my NHN with a touch of dextrin, so it is a very fine powder. I seriously doubt I dead pressed it. Dead pressing generally isn't possible with such a gentle hand press.

ManyInterests - 31-7-2023 at 16:59

Wow wow wow wow wow wow!

Ok, So I scraped off the NHN composition from my first batch (the one where excess water was used) and it was quite putty like, so maybe there's still some water? I transferred all I could scrape off into another container to let it dry some more before loading (which I will do tomorrow), I had some stuff that was stuck to the paper cup I put it in, so I decided to take a bit of that and burn it to see what would happen and...

Wow! NHN normally just vanishes real quick when burned, but with this, I heard popping, almost like mini-detonations were happening! This is incredible! I can't wait to test out these caps!

ManyInterests - 7-8-2023 at 21:12

I returned from a blasting cap testing trip. I didn't actually test the NHN mixed caps that I made because I did fire up a single 100mm 304 steel tube with a 7mm ID. It was my 1g melt-cast ETN, 0.3g pressed ETN, and 0.5g NHN. The explosion was so loud and it's effects on the rock and surrounding foliage (I didn't use a test plate... next time!) that it made me want to go home!

I did also make me want to think. Since the cap bodies that i used for the NHN mixes had some room left over for a bit of loading. What would you think of a cap that contains 0.5g of melt-cast ETN (no other pressed ETN) and 1g of the NHN mixture? I'm looking to see how much punch I can pack in one single cap.

Microtek - 7-8-2023 at 22:55

I would think it was backwards. The point of a compound detonator is to have a small amount of primary that initiates a base charge of a relatively sensitive secondary such as PETN or RDX (or ETN if you must), all of which are much more powerful than practically any primary.
Using more primary than base charge is only called for if the primary is so weak that such an amount is required to initiate the base.
The base is supposed to do all the work, the only function of the primary is to get the base going.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-8-2023 at 01:25

ManyInterests....You could have taken a picture of the damaged rock. To cheer up the local researchers... :cool:

papaya - 8-8-2023 at 05:36

IMHO, adding some new more secondaries, melting, casting, propellants, special effects, etc, must be fun, but not how scientific method dictates it has to be. If you're testing a primary then you're testing a primary, if you look at a compound cap then that is what you are looking at and so on. One must treat variables one by one, not everything at once, which of course means even more work and controlled experiments, unfortunately there's no shortcut. For example, if your add an ETN stage to your NHN/Chlorates caps, then how are you going to differentiate them by their power? Think about it.

ManyInterests - 8-8-2023 at 07:52

Quote:

ManyInterests....You could have taken a picture of the damaged rock. To cheer up the local researchers... :cool:

I know, but I would rather not do that. Rather not attract attention. :p But seriously, maybe one time I will be brave enough to film the boom!

But in all honesty, when I do take pictures, it will be of a proper test plate and not some rock. You think a thin non-stick pan will do? I can get some of those real cheap. Thrift stores carry them a lot where I live.

Quote:

I would think it was backwards. The point of a compound detonator is to have a small amount of primary that initiates a base charge of a relatively sensitive secondary such as PETN or RDX (or ETN if you must), all of which are much more powerful than practically any primary.
Using more primary than base charge is only called for if the primary is so weak that such an amount is required to initiate the base.
The base is supposed to do all the work, the only function of the primary is to get the base going.

You're right. I actually wasn't 100% sure if a compound detonator or something like a classic No. 8 (2 gram of 80% mercury fulminate and 20% KClO3) had as a difference.

So I guess it won't be necessary to add that much material to it. But I'd still like to try.

Quote:

IMHO, adding some new more secondaries, melting, casting, propellants, special effects, etc, must be fun, but not how scientific method dictates it has to be. If you're testing a primary then you're testing a primary, if you look at a compound cap then that is what you are looking at and so on. One must treat variables one by one, not everything at once, which of course means even more work and controlled experiments, unfortunately there's no shortcut. For example, if your add an ETN stage to your NHN/Chlorates caps, then how are you going to differentiate them by their power? Think about it.

I apologize. I mean adding ETN to the charge after properly testing them on their own.

I really do need to try to set off some kind of charge to finally test the effectiveness of the caps.

[Edited on 8-8-2023 by ManyInterests]

B(a)P - 8-8-2023 at 12:46

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

But in all honesty, when I do take pictures, it will be of a proper test plate and not some rock. You think a thin non-stick pan will do? I can get some of those real cheap. Thrift stores carry them a lot where I live.

[Edited on 8-8-2023 by ManyInterests]

Don't use a pan it is a waste of materials and is not of consistent thickness or strength.
Get some flat section mild steel. You may even be able to by some short lengths cheaply from your local steel supplier or just pick up a 1 m length from your local hardware shop. Depending on what you are testing you likely only need a 50 mm length per test. Cut lengths off as required and that will last you a very long time. When you run out you can buy the exact same product. With consistency in your test material you can make meaningful comparisons between your test fires.

[Edited on 8-8-2023 by B(a)P]

ManyInterests - 8-8-2023 at 20:15

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

That makes sense. Next time I will ask them if they can cut a few 50x50mm sheets for me.

Since I always set off my caps outdoors, and try to use natural objects as cover (I put my big caps against a rock and there was also a very large rock between me and the detonation, offering plenty of cover from any possible debris) how would I put the caps on the test? I know epoxy and hot glue would work, but outdoors that can take a while and/or be a little difficult to do. Would a small bit of double sided tape followed by stablizing it with some duct tape work? I know the small bit of double sided tape will get in the way of the test, but I need some ideas here?

Microtek - 8-8-2023 at 22:10

Cut a off a small piece of wooden board and drill a hole matching your cap all the way through, taking care to make it perpendicular to one of the faces (use a drill press if you have one). Glue that face to the test piece before going out to test. Secure the cap in the hole with blue-tack, tape or something similar.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-8-2023 at 07:23

We will never get a proper hole in iron from researcher ManyInterest...

(Chief Sitting Bull said, stuffing his peace pipe with gunpowder)

ManyInterests - 9-8-2023 at 22:51

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

We will never get a proper hole in iron from researcher ManyInterest...

(Chief Sitting Bull said, stuffing his peace pipe with gunpowder)

I promise you, next time you WILL get that hole! I went to the hardware store to scope out cheap but useful things I can use for a test plate and I found this. Not just because it is made from sheet metal, but it should be good... and I like it because it is the cheapest thing I can find for this purpose. I can probably also make things to stabilize the cap in other ways. But Microtek is giving me a good idea.

It'll be a while before I go on another blasting trip. But when I do, I'm going to also try to bring along 40 grams of cheddite to see if the cap will detonate it.

I do also have 30 grams of ammonium picrate. Maybe that'll be more appropriate since it is harder to set off than TNT. I want to experience the feeling of accomplishment that I made something on par with commercial caps... then move onto something else.

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Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-8-2023 at 02:54

Great. The steel looks on 1.5 mm of thickness. The first holes are already visible...!...

Also you can use stainless steel spoon 1.5 mm of thickness. This result is from 500mg Lithex or ETN. I dont know exactly.

MineMan - 10-8-2023 at 07:32

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

We will never get a proper hole in iron from researcher ManyInterest...

(Chief Sitting Bull said, stuffing his peace pipe with gunpowder)

Ok. That’s funny. Yes. I paralysis from analysis has been the hardest and constant challenge for me to overcome as well. It’s something to run from at times.

ManyInterests - 10-8-2023 at 14:22

Ok if you approve of that piece of steel I'll use it. I wasn't aware that stainless steel spoons could be used. But I won't use the ones I can get from dollar stores. the ones they have right now are really flimsy and won't give accurate results.

I also have one question: would a cheap cast iron pan work? I know it is much thicker and something else entirely, but such a pan is big and suitable for multiple detonators. Also it's strength and thickness would mean that if it does punch a hole in it then I know I got me something powerful.

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[Edited on 10-8-2023 by ManyInterests]

B(a)P - 10-8-2023 at 14:57

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

Ok if you approve of that piece of steel I'll use it. I wasn't aware that stainless steel spoons could be used. But I won't use the ones I can get from dollar stores. the ones they have right now are really flimsy and won't give accurate results.

it'll be a while before I go out for another blasting trip. But I will get two or three of those and set off several caps on them.

I also have one question: would a cheap cast iron pan work? I know it is much thicker and something else entirely, but such a pan is big and suitable for multiple detonators. Also it's strength and thickness would mean that if it does punch a hole in it then I know I got me something powerful.

It depends what you are trying to achieve in your testing. If you want to compare many different energetic materials over a long period of time then you can scale the volume of the composition to match your standard test material. It is best to keep your volume of energetic material low, as it is safer. If you use something like 1 to 2 mm thick mild steel as your standard, which is easily obtainable and fairly consistent, you can compare results over many different tests because you will always be able to get your hands on mild steel of a wide range of thicknesses. If you use approximately 100 mg of test material against a 1 mm mild steel target you will be able to make comparisons (ie it won't be completely obliterated). Here is an example of what 400 mg of energetic material can do to 1.5 mm thick mild steel. Using a piece of fabricated steel will allow you to make compatible tests, so long as you can still purchase the same product in the future.
Cast iron is brittle, so you will be unlikely to get numerous tests out of it, as it will just shatter.

ManyInterests - 10-8-2023 at 21:32

Quote:

The point of my tests is to see if I can make a detonator that is on par with commercial/military blasting caps. It is something I have on my to-do list. Once I have that handled I can move on with my next goals in energetic chemistry (such as making priming mixtures for firearms primers. Followed by homemade propellant).

Quote:

Cast iron is brittle, so you will be unlikely to get numerous tests out of it, as it will just shatter.

Duly noted. It was a heavy thing and using it for the purpose would have been a waste of a good cast iron pan anyway.

Microtek - 10-8-2023 at 22:35

It is easy to make a military equivalent detonator. The classical number 8 is 2 grams of a composition consisting of 80% mercury fulminate and 20% KClO3, and a more modern equivalent is 0.4-0.45 g PETN at a density of at least 1.4 g/cc, according to https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/555.11 .

The amount and type of primary explosive is not important as long as it is enough to ensure full detonation of the PETN, and that really doesn't take a lot. 0.1 g of a high quality primary (eg. NAP, NiCP, AgNT, Pb(N3)2) is plenty.

ManyInterests - 11-8-2023 at 01:45

I did make a cap with 1.1g of melt-cast ETN, 0.3g of pressed powder ETN and 0.5g of NHN (no mix) I added such a large amount of NHN because I wasn't sure if 0.2g or 0.3g would set it off. Maybe it would. As I mentioned, that cap is what made me want to leave since it was so loud and powerful that it got me spooked.

I think ultimately my issue was the plastic pen bodies. If I used steel/aluminum caps I would have realized my goal sooner.

Do you think 0.2 or 0.3g of pure NHN will set off .45g or 1g of PETN? I have some PETN made and I could use that instead of ETN (and the chlorate/nhn mixture should work if it doesn't). How would I know if I pressed the PETN to 1.4g/cc? Can that be done by hand or does it need some kind of press?

I did read that definition BTW, too.

Quote:

The amount and type of primary explosive is not important as long as it is enough to ensure full detonation of the PETN, and that really doesn't take a lot. 0.1 g of a high quality primary (eg. NAP, NiCP, AgNT, Pb(N3)2) is plenty.

I know Pb(N3)2 is lead azide, but what are the rest? Forgive me, but I don't recognize NAP, NiCP, or AgNT

ManyInterests - 22-10-2023 at 12:09

I haven't had the chance to get out to try them on witness plates yet, the weather and finances and all that jazz... but I decided to break out my 'bad' NHN batch. It doesn't work as well as other NHN stuff I got (it burns visibly much slower and its color is far more muted and not the vibrant purple that NHN is supposed to be) and I decided to make 5.5g of the mixture. I am going to see how much I can pack into 50mm steel tubes.

Maybe the confinement and added chlorate will compensate for the poor quality of the NHN, but if it doesn't work out. I will render safe the remaining amount of bad NHN with a cold sodium hydroxide solution and dispose of it.

Microtek - 23-10-2023 at 00:38

@ManyInterests: I didn't see your question about the other primaries before just now, but here is a little clarification: NAP is tris(aminoguanidine)nickel(II)perclorate, NiCP is tris(carbohydrazide)nickel(II)perchlorate (so basically the same as NAP just with a different nitrogen rich ligand), AgNT is silvernitrotetrazolate. They are all high performance primaries.

ManyInterests - 28-10-2023 at 06:50

Quote: Originally posted by Microtek

@ManyInterests: I didn't see your question about the other primaries before just now, but here is a little clarification: NAP is tris(aminoguanidine)nickel(II)perclorate, NiCP is tris(carbohydrazide)nickel(II)perchlorate (so basically the same as NAP just with a different nitrogen rich ligand), AgNT is silvernitrotetrazolate. They are all high performance primaries.

Thanks, those look like something I might be interesting in making in the future. I am sure there are processes on making them.

Since the improved composition here is a high performance one, I think maybe you are right. Just 0.2g with a large ETN charge (melt-cast 2g in a metal body of course) will be sufficient. If I was planning on making an ultra powerful composite detonator.

ManyInterests - 26-2-2024 at 20:51

Just calling to attention this. I made a test with this composition on a 1mm test plate. The picture is here:

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=14...

I did two tests, the other one is a much longer and more powerful ETN blasting cap. Did you get similar results with just the NHN? Did I do something wrong? I used around 0.9g.

untrained professional - 25-3-2024 at 22:41

Might a balanced mix of nhn and tacp perform well

Etanol - 25-3-2024 at 23:50

Quote: Originally posted by untrained professional

Might a balanced mix of nhn and tacp perform well

A spontaneous explosion can occur due to the formation of a highly sensitive Ni-hydrazine-perchlorate and the reaction of N2H4 with copper salt.

woelen - 26-3-2024 at 00:33

Quote: Originally posted by untrained professional

Might a balanced mix of nhn and tacp perform well

I am no expert on this kind of energetic materials, but this combination most likely is not stable. From personal experimenting I know that hydrazine and copper(II) cannot coexist for any length of time. Copper(II) is reduced by hydrazine to metallic copper.
Whether the suggested mix may explode or not I do not know. I read that nickel(II) hydrazine perchlorate seems to be quite sensitive. It might be that the disruption of the hydrazine coordination complex with copper(II) provides energy for setting off the nickel(II) hydrazine perchlorate, but I am not sure about that.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-3-2024 at 03:08

Etanol described it perfectly. Nothing else to say.... :cool:

Etanol - 20-4-2024 at 20:17

Quote: Originally posted by untrained professional

Might a balanced mix of nhn and tacp perform well

I mix wet NHN and TACP. It decomposes with foam, bubbles and orange Cu or Cu2O powder as product for a few hours.

[Edited on 21-4-2024 by Etanol]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 20-4-2024 at 21:26

And final material will the mad mixture with content Copper hydrazine perchlorate which explode during a drying process.....