[Edited on 18-3-2023 by Morgan]BromicAcid - 18-3-2023 at 12:21
I really miss having a gas stove. I grew up with a gas stove and then my first apartment had an electric. It was a learning curve but I managed. My
second apartment had a gas. My wife grew up with an electric and when she got the gas she was like "Why isn't everyone using these?" It has nothing
to do with boiling water faster and everything about having instantaneous thermal regulation at infinite graduation. Electric coils just hold too
much heat and take too long to get to temp. From there we moved into a home with electric and for the next 12 years my wife and I both bemoaned that
we didn't have gas.
Now in our second home we upgraded our electric stove to an induction. It is a step above the standard electric. I love how fast it can boil water.
But there are a ton of issues with induction that were not made apparent anywhere. In the end I'd have rather had another gas stove.
[Edited on 3/18/2023 by BromicAcid]
Gas Stove
MadHatter - 18-3-2023 at 12:44
Quote:
It was great for
running my still.
laughing my ass off. recognize.
[Edited on 3-18-2023 by arkoma]BromicAcid - 18-3-2023 at 12:52
I really thought induction would scratch that itch. It does have the quick response but mine goes in tenth graduations so it seems like there are a
lot of times it's too hot or too cold. Also the hobs are not the size they are on the glass (they are over-exaggerated) and even with good cookware
only the center parts are getting hot which is easy to see if you just crank it up to high and try to boil water (it essentially makes a perfect
outline of the hob).
Being a scientist I did look into a lot of this before I made the purchase. I was specifically interested in any potentially deleterious effects of
high strength EM frequency radiation considering the mechanism by which an induction stove works. I came to the conclusion that so long as I had a
good quality pan correctly sized and positioned over the hob it was not and issue. Unfortunately pans skate around all the time, I tend to flip my
omelets, hash browns, eggs, etc by actually lifting the pan and flipping them. I am constantly moving pans and repositioning things. I get a lot
more exposure to the hob than I realized I would. I mean it seems that I should be all right but is it any better or worse than exposure to partially
combusted hydrocarbons from a gas stove? No one's answering that question legitimately because it would take years to do that study. Rainwater - 18-3-2023 at 13:33
Same here, CO poisoning is scary , so i got 2 sensors at every place you need one.
Over the last 24 months, the cost of gas has increased here by over 350% and the price of electricity 250%.
By far heating with gas is still cheaper, either by cooking, hot water, or air conditioning.
Its all about efficiency,
For example, boiling water on the stove
1)gas stove (99% efficiency assuming med-low heat)
or
1)For the power plant to boil water in gas boiler (99%)
2) use the steam to turn a generator (80~95% efficiency based on load)
3) use a transformer to bump up the voltage for transmission (85-95% assuming your 3 nodes from the source)
An extra 5-8% per node( node being transmission nexus, substation, transformer outside your house
4a) traditional resistive element (99%)
4b) induction cooktop (75-90%)
Air conditioning is what it is, a transfer of thermal energy.
On a hot day, a properly sized high efficiency unit, in a properly insulated structure, will reach its maximum delta t, here code for new houses is
15c delta t. So on a 100f day the coldest air your unit will blow is about 70f, thats good enough for the most people.
The same holds true for a heat pump. But the same code applies, "15c"
So when its 40f outside, the most heat the unit will produce is around 70f.
Any colder than that and your inside temperature will drop.
But with an outside temp of 40f and the unit working at max, the outside heat exchanger will be below freezing and start to collect ice, lowering its
efficiency and max delta t.
This is how the building codes in the US have been established. And for the most part it works.
Units are designed with defrost cycles and other methods to minimize these problems.
But on a really cold day, a heat pump will not produce heat.
Same holds true for the thermal exchanger water heaters they are trying to force everyone to install in new houses. Its a heat pump turn into a water
heater. On a hot day, it works great and is more effecent that gas, but again. Its not reliable.
The main problem is the same as it was last decade, the technology just doesnt exist yet.Morgan - 19-3-2023 at 05:56
@Rainwater: You’re repeating several common misconceptions that may have been true 10 years ago or so, some of which were beliefs I held until
recently as well. I recommend watching some of the videos by Technology Connections on heat pumps and gas stoves (like the one that Morgan linked in
the OP, second link).
-Gas stoves are certainly not 99% efficient, they are far less, and much slower than electric or induction. I have a gas stove, and I hate using it in
the summer, especially because my house doesn’t have AC. It heats up my entire kitchen along with my food. While that’s not a bad thing in the
winter, I would still trade it for an induction stove any day if I was able to afford it as well as upgrading my electrical service. Unfortunately I
can’t, so I’m stuck with my gas appliances. https://youtu.be/_yMMTVVJI4c (significantly shorter video than the one Morgan linked that compares boiling water with different heat sources)
-Not sure where you’re getting your numbers for the cooling/heating of air conditioning/heat pumps, but they don’t make any sense, cause air
conditioning can definitely get a house well below 70° on a 100° day and a heat pump can get a house well above 70° on a 40° day. Apologies if I
have misunderstood what you were saying though. Regardless, heat pumps are getting better and better every year. Places that get very cold should
still have backup gas or resistive electric heating for the coldest days, but there’s no reason why new houses everywhere shouldn’t have heat
pumps installed. If they’re going to have air conditioning, it’s stupid for it to not be reversible. Any time that a heat pump is usable, they are
multiple times as efficient and cheap as resistive electric or even gas heating. Once again, I’d install one if I could afford to. https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI
-Likewise, those heat pump water heaters you mention always have resistive heating backups, so they are objectively better than a traditional electric
water heater. They’ll never leave you without hot water on a cold day because the heating element will make up the difference when the heat pump
isn’t enough.
So, overall, I’d say the technology certainly exists. Electrification is the future. The real hurdle preventing widespread electrification is not
inferior technology, but a need to substantially upgrade and fortify our electric grid, along with getting a lot more nuclear and renewable energy
sources online. Additionally, there need to be subsidies to lower income people who live in older houses to upgrade their electrical service and get
the proper circuitry installed to support electrical appliances. https://youtu.be/CVLLNjSLJTQMetallophile - 19-3-2023 at 16:03
2) use the steam to turn a generator (80~95% efficiency based on load)
This sounds far too high to me. Isn't it more like 35%? Dr.Bob - 21-3-2023 at 17:15
Yes, most power plants are 30-35% efficient, the max is about 50% for combined cycle plants.
For many things the old way worked well, I had gas hot water for many years, but things are changing. I would love to have an electric heat pump
water heater now, as it would dehumidy and cool my basement, lower my bills, and work fine. I have friends with them, and they work great. I used
CFLs for years, but they were not great, but now LEDs are way better, way more efficient, and last for years if well made.
I helped a local school swap about 2000 t8 fluorescent bulbs (32 watts each) for LEDs (about 15-18 watts each) at a cost of about $15,000 (after
rebates and some labor costs) and the saving were about $12,000 a year, and they have changed about 4 bulbs in 7 years now. They were changing 100
bulbs a quarter, plus ballasts, now almost no maintentence.
That pales in comparison to changing some high powered incandenscent bulbs we swapped, 250 and 500 watts each, which we swapped for 30-32 watt LEDs.
These do burn out faster, due to the high power, but save almost 85% in electricity, and a huge amount in AC costs in the summer. And they have gas
heat, so even that is cheaped in the winter than heating with bulbs. In the end, they cut their electricity iuse in half over 3 years of minor
changes.
I agree that banning gas stoves is not the solution to the worlds ills, but if everyone would just make a small effort to conserve, we could cut out
half of our eletric usage pretty easily, on average, and save buillions of dollars, as conservation is way cheaper than creating green energy. I
have yet to see many houses or businesses that could not cut at least 25% on their bills unless they were brand new or really effiecient to start
with. Once super effiencient, it is hard to do much better cheaply, as the savings start costing much more, which is the point of diminishing
return. That is why we need more energy solutions than just one or two ideas like solar or wind.
My brother-in-law was rushed to hospital after he leaned over an induction hob...
His pacemaker was ruined.
I drink a lot of tea, induction heaters are less efficient than an electric kettle.
In uk the cost per kW.h of electricity is triple that of gas.
Here in malaysia the costs of petrol, domestic lpg and electricity are govt. controlled,
If the controls were removed there would probably be a change of government.Lionel Spanner - 17-5-2023 at 07:35
The best type of non-gas cooker I've ever come across is a halogen hob. It has speed and efficiency close to that of gas, without the actual
consumption of any gas.
