Sciencemadness Discussion Board - EU Survey on Chemical Restrictions – Stop further chemical bans

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I don't know if it would help to accomplish anything, but the least the Chemistry community in the EU can do is to take this survey and have them take the overwhelmingly negative feedback into account, to make it clear that restricting access to basic chemicals is not helping in terrorism prevention. The least we can do is try.

Effective terrorism prevention would start with changing our FP towards certain parts of the world. But as long as the EU/UK slavishly follow the US that won't happen.

I'm UK, not EU, so can't honestly complete the survey. Thanks for sharing it though!

sceptic - 25-1-2023 at 23:29

I don't live in the EU, so I can't fill out the survey. In your position paper, are you planning to include some justification for the desirability of amateur science? I suspect that when the EU lawmakers hear "amateur chemistry" they'll think "drug lab" or "terrorist," since those are usually the only home labs that make it into the news. They might realise that restricting access to these chemicals probably won't do much to deter terrorism or drug manufacturing, but they might think that even a small effect is worth pursuing, given that they probably don't think that amateur chemistry is an activity worth preserving.

To prove that amateur chemistry is valuable, the wikipedia page for amateur chemistry has a fairly good list of notable people who worked with it, including several Nobel prize winners, computer pioneers, and early chemists.

Thyzoid - 26-1-2023 at 01:32

I will make a video about this. Hopefully many will fill out that survey. I am tired of politicians turning Europe into a sh*thole by banning even more chemicals without real reasons.

unionised - 26-1-2023 at 01:45

Effective terrorism prevention would start with changing our FP towards certain parts of the world.

Our what?

Anyway, This is an English language forum so many/ most of the Europeans here aren't in the EU (any more).

But I hope that the message is spread to other chemistry fora across the EU.
The UK still has to pay attention to the EU- they just not longer get the chance to influence it. (This was called "taking back control").

Keras - 26-1-2023 at 02:55

Thanks for that. I’ll prepare a submission of my own.

FRTZKNG - 26-1-2023 at 07:49

I don't live in the EU, so I can't fill out the survey. In your position paper, are you planning to include some justification for the desirability of amateur science? I suspect that when the EU lawmakers hear "amateur chemistry" they'll think "drug lab" or "terrorist," since those are usually the only home labs that make it into the news. They might realise that restricting access to these chemicals probably won't do much to deter terrorism or drug manufacturing, but they might think that even a small effect is worth pursuing, given that they probably don't think that amateur chemistry is an activity worth preserving.

To prove that amateur chemistry is valuable, the wikipedia page for amateur chemistry has a fairly good list of notable people who worked with it, including several Nobel prize winners, computer pioneers, and early chemists.

I will definitely take this into account. The whole point is that amateur chemistry isn't just drugs and terrorism. That there is a legitimate use for chemistry and especially that these proclaimed risks do not outweigh any legitimate uses. Because, that would be like proclaiming that legitimate uses of flour, e.g. baking, are banned due to the risk of misusing flour to create dust explosions. Which would sound absolutely asinine. But this is the level of reasoning we're talking here with the EU legislators.

Also, at least in Germany, someone who really wants to use those chemicals in large quantities with malicious intent, could just open a business and thus circumvent the entire legislation. So can any amateur chemist, but proper storage equipment that passes security checks is expensive.

[Edited on 26-1-2023 by FRTZKNG]

blogfast25 - 26-1-2023 at 08:22

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Our what?

FP = foreign policy

Lionel Spanner - 26-1-2023 at 08:39

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

The UK still has to pay attention to the EU- they just not longer get the chance to influence it. (This was called "taking back control").

They're not obliged to enact EU legislation, though.

blogfast25 - 26-1-2023 at 08:54

hey might realise that restricting access to these chemicals probably won't do much to deter terrorism or drug manufacturing, but they might think that even a small effect is worth pursuing, given that they probably don't think that amateur chemistry is an activity worth preserving.

To prove that amateur chemistry is valuable, the wikipedia page for amateur chemistry has a fairly good list of notable people who worked with it, including several Nobel prize winners, computer pioneers, and early chemists.

All true.

In addition I think wondering about the world and universe should really be a universal human right, not tinkered with by petty and ignorant bureaucrats, wherever and whoever they are.

I've been doing this marvelling and wondering since I was about 14, first in a corner of my dad's garage that he had assigned to me.

[Edited on 26-1-2023 by blogfast25]

sceptic - 26-1-2023 at 09:00

Where could we find more information about the proposed regulations? I looked at the links you gave, and did a search on the EU website, but I wasn't able to find any details about the proposal. In particular, I couldn't find a page that listed chemicals that would be affected.

blogfast25 - 26-1-2023 at 09:26

Quote: Originally posted by Lionel Spanner

They're not obliged to enact EU legislation, though.

So laws regarding restriction of chemicals enacted by the EU BEFORE Brexit will now be repealed by the UK, right? No, I didn't think so.

Recently imposed draconian restrictions in the UK on H2SO4 and HNO3 simply follow the EU lead too.

Herr Haber - 26-1-2023 at 10:29

Quote: Originally posted by Lionel Spanner

They're not obliged to enact EU legislation, though.

On a sidenote, we're *still* not allowed liquid in aircrafts because of a bogus alert, with terrorists didnt have a plan or a target and nowadays the chemicals they were supposed to use are even harder to get for the general public.

FFS, detonating H2O2 and Tang powder...
We're not allowed liquids because of that !

paulll - 26-1-2023 at 10:34

Where could we find more information about the proposed regulations? I looked at the links you gave, and did a search on the EU website, but I wasn't able to find any details about the proposal. In particular, I couldn't find a page that listed chemicals that would be affected.

Presumably on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'

blogfast25 - 26-1-2023 at 10:45

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

Quote: Originally posted by Lionel Spanner

They're not obliged to enact EU legislation, though.

It's relatively easy to bring in new legislation but much harder to get rid of obsolete laws. What legislator would take a chance with banning the ban on (passenger) liquids on board of planes?

FRTZKNG - 28-1-2023 at 13:54

The EU
Therefore, I beg as many of you to fill out this survey. It should take around 10 to 20 minutes – and maybe do something against the unintentional prosecution of amateur chemists doing legitimate science at home.

I may have miscalculated the time it takes to complete this survey. It should take around 40 minutes to an hour; if you take more than 60 minutes the vote may not be valid. Sorry for the inconvenience.

FRTZKNG - 28-1-2023 at 14:06

I couldn't find too much information either, but I'll have a look into it. The listed substances affected are:

Cyanides
Phosphides
Sulfides
Hypochlorites (or similar compounds capable of easily evolving halogens).

Seeing how the infamous "Explosive Precursors" list is structured, even possession may become illegal; with the former three being off-limits to private individuals. I don't know how they'd deal with FeS, which is easily produced from Fe and S8, and is regularly used in labs to generate H2S on demand. Cyanides and phosphides don't see regular use in home chemistry, for the better, as with these, things can go wrong very quickly if you don't know what you're doing. Obtaining these is already hard for a good reason.

Hypochlorite is in a lot of cleaning products and pool disinfectants; so completely outlawing its sale to ordinary customers is very unlikely. (Though while the rest of the world uses 90+ per cent H2SO4 as a drain cleaner, we do not; but in the case of OCl there aren't many viable alternatives)
They may however restrict the concentration of NaOCl sold to private customers, down to percentages where you'd be dealing with a burdensome amount of water during syntheses.

I assume the reason for this proposed restriction is to prevent any kind of guerrilla chemical warfare, despite there being no major instances of such a thing happening in the EU, that I am aware of. Please refer to the Wikipedia article on 'Moral Panic' for further explanation of the reasoning behind such proposals. Even the Tokyo subway attacks in the 90s were carried out with Sarin, something no one in their right mind would synthesize, never mind being able to buy the specialty precursors for. And those who don't have a right mind won't care about some stupid EU law anyways.

[Edited on 28-1-2023 by FRTZKNG]

blogfast25 - 28-1-2023 at 16:04

Please refer to the Wikipedia article on 'Moral Panic' for further explanation of the reasoning behind such proposals.

Yeah, that and 'politicians wanting to be seen "doing the right thing"'! :mad:

For backyard scientists, additional risks will now have to be incurred for synthesising must-haves like H₂SO₄ and HNO₃...

[Edited on 29-1-2023 by blogfast25]

Waffle_staffel - 29-1-2023 at 21:24

I'd just like to point out that non-EU citizens are allowed to submit comments, and 20% of the submissions are from outside the EU.

As with the airport body scanners, this is not and never was about safety (the first director of DHS, Michael Chertoff, represented the scanner manufacturer and had a financial interest in their mandated sales). I'd go further and disagree that it's about moral panic and foreign policy, which is not to say that Western foreign policy doesn't cause the majority of conflict in the world, rather it is about absolute control, about stifling creativity, curiosity and self-directed education, and ultimately about completely disarming the population and neutering their ability to mount any form of resistance to tyranny.

Okay, now, everyone take out your safety pencil and a circle of paper and let your displeasure be known.

BJ68 - 30-1-2023 at 02:20

Recently imposed draconian restrictions in the UK on H2SO4 and HNO3 simply follow the EU lead too.

May be true for nitric acid, but the ban of sulfuric acid was a farewell gift from UK.
See point 3. in http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23212&...

Both documents are not available anymore....

Would not be the first time, that governments are playing the game indirectly (in Deutsch "über Bande spielen")

bj68

blogfast25 - 30-1-2023 at 07:26

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

The ban on H₂SO₄ is now less than 20% (about 2 M).

It will turn all drugs makers into distillers, of course...

“The only thing that we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.”

Hegel

[Edited on 30-1-2023 by blogfast25]

Fantasma4500 - 11-2-2023 at 04:47

well unrealistic things are happening that i would never have put my money on- and it will take some very unrealistic change in society for this to turn around, as i see it this is very obviously an agenda thats being pushed worldwide. one small step at a time like boiling a frog slowly
the simplest way around this is to prepare for the worst, to not stash your money but rather turn money into resources that you indeed can use to survive with and staying far away from densely populated areas, i have seen some claims about statistics and oftenly the year 2030 pops up- thats in 7 years. anywhere in society you look at statistics its going downhill- it will get incredibly bad until it hits rock bottom and can only get better, their newest sport is to test out travel restriction zones in the UK- now the ambulances cant get around. restrictions and control. they do this because they MUST- if they dont, their plan has more chance of failure. to me it seems eventually that their plan will fail, much like seeing nature pierce up through asphalt- eventually.

theyre pushing for digitalization of currency, but do you really need money? we have lived for thousands of years without money. you need food. water. shelter. you do not need money, and especially not a fancy time-of-the-year jacket

Syn the Sizer - 14-2-2023 at 14:03

I am not European, but I absolutely do not support fascism. Europe is turning into a fascist state. Individual nations under authoritarian rule by the EU and it's head of state so to say. They have a centralized currency for the EU, and the members national funds have been converted and as explained to me, essentially EU funds now. Any person who wishes to loose gets the book thrown at them. They do not support individualism and treat immigrants better than many of the locals who helped build the land to what it is now. They restrict people rights, and I feel practicing chemistry (and all other sciences) is a right, the first chemists were alchemists working in their shop, some of the greatest discoveries were made by people working at home. Modern day example is NerdRage perfecting the solvent extraction of potassium and all his video documentation.

Sorry for the political comment as I know politics is strictly prohibited here, but this is a scary truth and I am sure at least some here will agree and very least not disagree with some of my statements.

I think people world wide need to sign this petition, we are all united in a common hobby, we cannot let our European brothers and sisters lose their passion without at least trying. We need to realize as this becomes more of a fact in the EU, it will spread to other locals. Who knows, maybe your country (not the Europe is a country) will be next.

I know if Canada tries I would fight to the end, though I honestly cannot see that happening here. Nothing is explicitly restricted aside for Schedule substance under the Controlled Drugs and substances Act. Even purchase and synthesis of Class A Precursors are not outright restricted. It is the seller that is restricted without a licence.

Though some of them may draw attention if you are open about making them like P2P, but they cannot get you with any law as long as you don't sell it. They may ask to see your log book, which is exactly why we keep log books, and do some surveillance, but there is no probably cause there.

Others (not synthed but bought) like Lysergic acid and tryptamine are similar, there is only 1 product synthed with lysergic acid that is illegal and 2 with tryptamine that are illegal here and the rest not even listed in the act. Sale of products containing pseudo are not restricted or watch, you can buy a bottle every day and nobody bats an eye. So with how loose our Drugs and Substances Act is, I don't see them restricting farther here anytime soon.

Edit:
Looks like I can't, maybe only open to EU residents. I still mean what I said though...

[Edited on 14-2-2023 by Syn the Sizer]

charley1957 - 14-2-2023 at 19:20

I just submitted the survey from Texas. There were choices you can check and one of them was Non EU Citizen, and I listed USA as my country. There was a pie chart that showed a percentage of other folks outside the EU had also answered the survey. Couldn’t hurt to try. Mine submitted successfully.

charley1957 - 14-2-2023 at 19:22

There’s plenty of opportunity in the survey to tell your side of things or elaborate on your answers in your own words. I submitted some pretty lengthy answers and never hit any limits on length of answer.

blogfast25 - 15-2-2023 at 04:28

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer

I am not European, but I absolutely do not support fascism. Europe is turning into a fascist state. Individual nations under authoritarian rule by the EU and it's head of state so to say. They have a centralized currency for the EU, and the members national funds have been converted and as explained to me, essentially EU funds now. Any person who wishes to loose gets the book thrown at them. They do not support individualism and treat immigrants better than many of the locals who helped build the land to what it is now. They restrict people rights, and I feel practicing chemistry (and all other sciences) is a right, the first chemists were alchemists working in their shop, some of the greatest discoveries were made by people working at home. Modern day example is NerdRage perfecting the solvent extraction of potassium and all his video documentation.

Sorry for the political comment as I know politics is strictly prohibited here, but this is a scary truth and I am sure at least some here will agree and very least not disagree with some of my statements.

Well, I AM European and the first to criticise the EU for some things.

Your criticism however is both ABSURD and OFFENSIVE. Not to mention gross misinformation.

If this is the kind of crapola that flies in the Canadian webosphere then that might say more about Canada than about Europe!

The (supported) ban on political commentary on this site prevents me from demolishing your arguments further but I will say this: you clearly haven't got the FOGGIEST CLUE about fascism! And misuse of the term makes fighting actual fascism harder, actually.

blogfast25 - 15-2-2023 at 05:46

I've submitted it too now.

Imagine a fascist state that encourages consultation about a national security issue, not only from its own citizens but also from foreign ones!

I suggest that stuff about the EU, including mine, is pruned off and sent to Detritus.

[Edited on 15-2-2023 by blogfast25]

clearly_not_atara - 15-2-2023 at 06:45

Quote:

I am not European, but I absolutely do not support fascism. Europe is turning into a fascist state.

People call everything fascism these days. These complaints not only needlessly sensationalize and exaggerate debates, they miss the whole underlying reason why anyone was supposed to care about fascism in the first place.

Here's the problem with fascism: it's appealing. The reason fascism is dangerous even compared to other kinds of bad policy is that it creates a romanticized context under which terrible ideas can seem to make sense, at least to some people. So we shouldn't call bad policies "fascist" unless they offer a fascist appeal: the idea of an Orderly Society run by the Good People with Natural Human (or some-Ethnic) Ideas who have been Wrongly Suppressed by the Manipulative Schemes of the Lying Intellectual Elites. (I could also talk about how state-corporate partnerships allow the state to exert its authority beyond the boundaries of the law, but I digress.)

Not every authoritarian policy is fascism. Not every bad policy is fascism. Not every discriminatory and unfair policy is fascism. Not every antidemocratic policy is fascism. Not every racist policy is fascism. Not every sexist policy is fascism. Not every nationalist policy is fascism.

When you hear people calling things fascism, when those things do not carry the risk of fascism, the risk of a romantic narrative that makes decent people accept horrible things, those people are full of it.

Syn the Sizer - 15-2-2023 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by charley1957

I just submitted the survey from Texas. There were choices you can check and one of them was Non EU Citizen, and I listed USA as my country. There was a pie chart that showed a percentage of other folks outside the EU had also answered the survey. Couldn’t hurt to try. Mine submitted successfully.

Awesome, thanks, I must have the link. I will check again when I get home.

Syn the Sizer - 15-2-2023 at 13:10

If this is the kind of crapola that flies in the Canadian webosphere then that might say more about Canada than about Europe!

You clearly haven't got the FOGGIEST CLUE about fascism! And misuse of the term makes fighting actual fascism harder, actually.

To make it clear, I did not say Europe was a fascist state, I said it is turning into one. My opinions are actually base on discussions with various friends from Europe and they were the first to make the claim, then upon research on in fascism to get a better understanding I saw some parallels where I see Europe heading with the EU restrictions.

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara

Quote:

Not every authoritarian policy is fascism. Not every bad policy is fascism. Not every discriminatory and unfair policy is fascism. Not every antidemocratic policy is fascism. Not every racist policy is fascism. Not every sexist policy is fascism. Not every nationalist policy is fascism.

I do agree, I didn't say this bill was fascist, just that the EU is becoming one as it seems they are slowly banning everything. It starts with one and eventually you have no rights. I also feel being united under one common banner like the EU destroys cultural individuality, in time it will become one group with the same money, same restrictions. Then next thing you know there will be no petition, they will tell you what is and isn't.

it took very little time for Canada and the many cultures that founded us to become one. Mind you we were also all in a new land and not our ancestral land.

I still see the risk of it becoming a fascist state, again, not saying it is now or these restrictions are.

Jenks - 15-2-2023 at 14:36

I would like to suggest that, in addition to the inconvenience caused to budding home chemists by the ever-tightening lockdown on common chemicals, that it might be more compelling to point out the impact it must be having on the average homeowner now having fewer choices for household drain cleaners, etc., and also on small businesses or people trying to start small businesses who are now frustrated trying to obtain what until recently were common chemicals. Maybe it would help to compile a list of all the odd uses for these chemicals that the average person might, at some point, have an interest in. My suggestion is, basically, instead of trying to defend the rights of a small minority, point out that the rights of the average person are ultimately being abridged.

[Edited on 15-2-2023 by Jenks]

BJ68 - 16-2-2023 at 00:41

It´s not only the fewer choices....it´s the problem that even the possession is now illegal. If you have somewhere a bottle of battery acid forgotten, which is sulfuric acid with 30% you can be punished with a fine or up to three years in jail in Germany according to the Ausgangsstoffgesetz - AusgStG http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ausgstg/index.html

bj68

blogfast25 - 16-2-2023 at 03:57

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer

The people you were talking to are inveterate fools. See also @clearly_not_atara' s points.

And the only ones who believe the EU is/is becoming a 'state' are Brexiteers and perennial Eurosceptics. You hang out with the wrong crowd, which also makes you a f**l.

Fantasma4500 - 17-2-2023 at 08:43

@blogfast: was* european- technically UK isnt europe. ☻

seems that the UK is getting worse much faster just to make it seem like not being part of EU is a bad thing
walled off neighbourhood where you cant drive because CO2, travel zone restrictions

blogfast25 - 17-2-2023 at 10:31

Quote: Originally posted by Fantasma4500

@blogfast: was* european- technically UK isnt europe. ☻

I'm not British but of a European nationality. I just happen to live in the disaster area called 'Albion'. :mad:

Quote: Originally posted by Fantasma4500

that the UK is getting worse much faster just to make it seem like not being part of EU is a bad thing

Someone called Brexit 'the largest case of economic self-harm [by the uk]'

Have a quick gander e.g.: https://sourcechemicals.com/product/hydrogen-peroxide-9-food...

[Edited on 17-2-2023 by blogfast25]

FRTZKNG - 19-2-2023 at 12:39

Tomorrow will be the last day of this survey running.

I have contributed my own opinion now, including a position paper, proposing a relaxation of the strict rules implemented with the infamous 2019/1148 directives (aka the Sulfuric Acid Ban), and advocating against further chemical restrictions. This relaxation may either be a complete abolishment of 2019/1448 (very unlikely) or the introduction of a proper chemical permit that all EU member states are required to accept, giving people access to small quantities of:

- Sulfuric acid up to 100 %
- Nitric acid up to 70 %
- Hydrogen peroxide up to 35 %
- Urotropine,

as well as continued unlimited access to Sodium hypochlorite, Calcium hypochlorite and Trichloroisocyanuric acid, all of which are frequently used as pool disinfection chemicals.

Thank you so much for the contributions so far. Before I posted this thread, a mere six people voted on this survey, now the number is close to 200. I hope that our opinion will not entirely be left unheard.

Edit: Also, please refrain from political discussions not relevant to this topic.

[Edited on 19-2-2023 by FRTZKNG]

[Edited on 19-2-2023 by FRTZKNG]

blogfast25 - 19-2-2023 at 13:02