Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Wrappolite from Dr. Liptakov

Wrappolite from Dr. Liptakov

Laboratory of Liptakov - 29-12-2022 at 05:17

Due to frequent inquiries about AN-based energetic materials, I would like to start a thread on subject of Wrappolite. This is an energetic composition that brings many benefits. The basis of Wrappolite is aluminum kitchen foil, which provides 4 benefits at once.
1)....Mechanical carrier of moist energy salts and their mixtures with fuels.
2)....Protection against moisture with impermeable metal
3)....Highly efficient secondary fuel with a thickness of 1 micrometer
4) ...Partial plasticity of entire assembly while maintaining hermeticity

The basic structure is therefore foil + a weak layer of ethylene glycol + finely ground ammonium nitrate. Ethylene glycol causes AN to adhere to the foil.
(Fig. 3) This is followed by folding and packing against moisture into the
desired shape. (Fig.4) Fig. 2 shows important air pockets that guarantee low density for reliable function.

During the experiments, it became clear that maintaining a precise and low density is not a crucial condition for a successful function. (Fig. 6, 7, 8). The final shape can be changed repeatedly and the design still provides good performance. Estimated VoD is 2000 - 3500 m/s, depending on density and diameter.

Figure 8 and 9 demonstrate good performance even with a very small charge of only 15g. Which is surprising for an AN-based compound of 30 mm diameter. Fig. 10, 11 and 12 show reliable function of 26 grams used so-called "per side". A stick with a diameter of 50 mm was reliably broken through. In all attepts was used starting from high pressed CHP 1g.

Figure 14, 15 and 16 clearly show mechanical advantages of Wrappolit. Wrapping anything is easy. And that in regular layers and thickness. Figures 17 and 18 demonstrate crushing effect of Wrappolit on steel pipe, 3mm wall thickness. The thickness of the winding is estimated at only 20 mm. Which is an incredibly weak layer for an AN-based charge. The total weight of the coil was approx. 108g. Ammotropin was used as a filler, which is a mixture of 91 AN + 9 hexamine. Nitrocellulose varnish was used as an adhesive layer for capturing ammotropin.
The main reason for the construction of Wrappolit was the lack and unavailability of aluminum powder. Which is prohibited to sell in many countries. Scarcity and need and restriction can lead to surprising solutions. Which is the construction of Wrappolit. Kitchen foil is available almost anywhere in the world. And it's cheap. Its sale is not controlled. And its properties surpass unavailable powdered aluminum. According to the opening points, even several times.

Instead Ethylene glycol is possible use WD 40 spray. Brisance will be lower, critical diameter higher, but it will still work. Wrappolit filler can be variable. For example, liquid nitroglycerin cannot be wrapped around a stick. Experiments with Wrappolit can include KCLO3, NaClO3, KClO4, NaClO4, NG, EGDN, DEGDN, and many other variants with suitable fuels. Which can be EG, DEG TEG, WD40, Nitrocellulose varnish and so on. Basically anything that bangs can be painted on aluminum foil and wrapped.

Hey Buddy - 29-12-2022 at 08:15

Like a simple version of a datasheet. Neato.

[Edited on 29-12-2022 by Hey Buddy]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 29-12-2022 at 08:28

You mean Detasheet or Detaflex. Yes. Many things in the world have their similarity..... :cool:

...For example Wrappolite looks a like capacitor.

[Edited on 29-12-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Hey Buddy - 29-12-2022 at 09:59

Yes, well, they have lots of names detasheet, primasheet, datasheet etc.. I think detasheet is the original and then "datasheet" is either telephone-game or competitor product but I've read the words "datasheet" in military TMs, which is confusing because when you first read it, an actual "sheet of data" comes to mind.-- I think primasheet is a brand name for PETN varient. Im not a big fan of RDX though, I think a simple AN/Al foil adaptation is novel.

ManyInterests - 30-12-2022 at 22:23

I was wondering how to make sheet explosives. I've been playing around making plastictized stuff using rubber cement and bar and chain oil, but I am not sure how to make a detasheet like that.

I finally have some ammonium nitrate. From cold packs in the US but they're unprocessed so far. I might give this a go. But I would like to make rubberized sheet explosives if anyone can tell me.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 31-12-2022 at 01:53

Wrappolite is only alternative of detasheet principle. But is it easy and variable construction for amateur applications and attempts. Which no require next solid (plast) case. Against moisture. And his schrapnells are basically zero.

Hey Buddy - 31-12-2022 at 08:41

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

I was wondering how to make sheet explosives. I've been playing around making plastictized stuff using rubber cement and bar and chain oil, but I am not sure how to make a detasheet like that.

I finally have some ammonium nitrate. From cold packs in the US but they're unprocessed so far. I might give this a go. But I would like to make rubberized sheet explosives if anyone can tell me.

LL has some guidance videos on his YT channel for polyisobutylene extraction from scapa tape. In the US there are sources of PIB in metal roofing seam adhesive tape, or you can buy rat trap glue by the gallon, I bought a gallon for I think around $35 a couple years ago. The dense PBX sheet explosives are more of an industrial product than something that can really be accurately reproduced for amateurs. Vacuum degassing is typically used, proprietary solvent evaporation techniques are typically used. People make PBX but typically it's not the same. Im sure one could get close but it would be a trial and error process. IMO simple, small PBX mixes are more realistic. PETN makes an excellent PBX substrate, PIB is a classic plasticizer. --The other thing to remember is if you make PBX sheet explosives youre talking a significant qty of explosive to make a usable sheet. Most PBX mixes are 90%+ high explosives, you can imagine at the density of typical energetics 1.5-2.0g/cm3 youre going to be getting into the >50g probably closer to 100, 500 gram realistic quantities to make a useable sheet. An M67 hand grenade has about 180g of diluted comp B as reference. Obviously that quantity of HE is a lethal hazard for anyone within about 10 m.

That's what makes this invention novel. He has taken a principle that is difficult and laborious to produce and reproduced it in a more simple form, using novel emulsion sheets of Al. It's really quite novel. I'm sure I will try it someday.

Raid - 31-12-2022 at 13:27

seems kinda cool i guess

Laboratory of Liptakov - 1-1-2023 at 08:52

Wrappolite is variable cool metal coil.... :cool:

....Lifetime full detonation warranty.

ManyInterests - 2-1-2023 at 17:25

Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

Yeah, getting scapa tape is a little expensive for me. I did order some self-amalgamating tape but it has been sitting around for months and I haven't tested it yet. I don't have gasoline, so I am using BBQ lighter fluid, which is a petroleum product and does melt down some stuff. I believe LL said that it should still work.

Rubber cement and motor oil also works as a plasticizer. Not as good as PiB, but it works. The brand I am using is the victor rubber cement. It is used for tire repair. I believe it should be acid free (which is important to prevent acid deterioration of the energetics you are plasticizing), but I am also experimenting with elmer's craft bond, which is stated to be acid free. It doesn't work as well and when left overnight exposed it tends to harden and doesn't come back together after tearing. I might need to use a larger amount of it to achieve the same plasticizing effect as the Victor brand.

I guess making PBX and sheet explosives is a bit too ambitious. A simple PiB bonded stuff is good enough.

Hey Buddy - 3-1-2023 at 19:11

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

I guess making PBX and sheet explosives is a bit too ambitious.

I didnt mean to discourage you. --People tend to get carried away with insensitive homemade pbx. Trying to formulate batches results in: "Add ingredient A, then B, then C, oops too much C, add more A" etc. Before they know it, they prepared a Kg of PBX. Sheet explosives are usually big just to form the sheet. -- I dont know your situation, not my business. For me, (I usually prepare small batches ~20 g or so), if I accidentally set off a large shot of explosives or unexpectedly made a poison gas, fire etc, it would only kill me. No other people or animals (well maybe a mouse) would be destroyed. --I had no intention to discourage your interest in sheet explosives. Im sorry if it had that effect.

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 25-1-2023 at 17:15

Does ethylene glycol + AN work without being wrapped? I've seen patents for mixtures of that sort but they tend to want a specific grain size of AN, a small precise addition of water, microballoons or other void sensitization, a specific heating cycle before use, etc.

I'm just a bit curious about the processes at work here. How much of the sensitization is having metallic fuels added by the foil, how much is from voids being imploded and absorbing shock energy, vs how much is just the nature of the filling.

Also, how much AN vs EG did you use. I know some of these mixtures (especially AN ones) work better when they have less than the stoichiometric quantity of fuel.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-1-2023 at 01:18

Does ethylene glycol + AN work without being wrapped?.........Yes, ratio is: Dry AN grain 2x2 mm....86%, EG...14%. Density 0.7 - 0.9 g/cc. Sensitive on No.8 or on 1g pressed ETN 1.65 - 1.71g/cc.

I'm just a bit curious about the processes at work here........Is it complexe process require long explanation on A4 text.

(especially AN ones) work better when they have less than the stoichiometric quantity of fuel.....nonsense at small charges 20 - 50g.

Wrappolite not require exact ratios. Construction by pictures. Thin film of ethyleneglycol on Alu foil must hold AN grain 1x1 mm in one layer.

[Edited on 26-1-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 2-17-2023 by Bert]

Bert - 17-2-2023 at 13:03

Boomerite exploding target mixture:

Ammonium nitrate 77%

Potassium chlorate 20.5%

Ethylene glycol 2.5%

For your consideration, several TONS of the above ammonium nitrate + ethylene glycol (cheap antifreeze) + POTASSIUM CHLORATE mixture have been mixed and exploded as reactive rifle targets during the "Boomershoot" events. No expensive aluminum powder required- But what might be achieved by coating the mixture on foil? I personally am interested in how that mixture might behave.

The "Boomerite" mixture is made shortly before use and is NOT stored for long periods. There are reports of lost targets or spilled target composition spontaneously combusting (deflagrations, not detonations) after a week or so of exposure to atmospheric moisture and sunlight.

https://www.boomershoot.com/general/EG.htm

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-2-2023 at 02:06

The same ratios should work in a Wrappolite arrangement. Because aluminum as a fuel can be in the mix as an extra item plus. It reduces brisance, but significantly increases the sensitivity and overall energy powerof almost any mixture. About up to 15% of content. However, I do not have equipment to make this attempt. Any way, Interesting idea. The capacitor - wrappolite design can withstand multiple shots. Without huge spillage.

[Edited on 18-2-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Hey Buddy - 5-11-2023 at 21:10

I still havent tried wrappolite. Ive been thinking about it all day. Wonder if teflon tape could have any interaction with Al foil as a fluorine oxidizer? I stuck some teflon tape into powdered Al bag and pulled it out, it was coated in Al powder held on teflon tape via static charge. I wadded the tape/Al mix up and compressed it in a small ball of Al foil as a container. Then held a blow torch to it for about four seconds before the ball erupts in a massive blinding white flash at night.

Could PTFE tape be layered in there between Al/AN/EG as simple oxidizer? Al/PTFE is known to be detonatable. But it's very insensitive by itself. It is used in "reactive material" fragmentation in state of art weapons. They sinter Al/PTFE into fragmentation balls which then detonate on impact. Oxidizers ClO4/Metal oxides are added to the sintering to increase sensitivity and detonation rate. They have even made bullets out of sintered material that detonate on impact.

I just wonder what would happen if cheap PTFE tape were added to wrappolite. If it would increase Vd? It should at least increase heat of detonation I think. And F oxidizer is faster in oxidation than oxygen...

I would try but...

I cant find any pure EG anywhere around here. its all diluted, need to distill it I suppose. Don t want to do that... What about propylene glycol? I have some of that...

I am honestly surprised it is cap sensitive. That's handy.

[Edited on 6-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

Microtek - 6-11-2023 at 02:20

What is your EG diluted with? If it's water, it should be easy to just heat it to maybe 150C to drive off any water. Same goes for other low boiling diluents.

Hey Buddy - 7-11-2023 at 17:31

Quote: Originally posted by Microtek

What is your EG diluted with? If it's water, it should be easy to just heat it to maybe 150C to drive off any water. Same goes for other low boiling diluents.

Thats a good point. I suppose I was thinking I would find in the store, undiluted EG antifreeze that could be used directly.

On a related note. Im trying to reproduce some of those perchlorate primer explosives from the patent thread on Dyno nobel. The ones where they cite NaClO4 as salt with glycols as fuel. ~5.9 km/s. I found dot 3 fluid at the dollar store. MSDS says TEG/DEG/DEG monobutyl ether as 90% of the components. I would assume that may work directly in replacement of EG. I will test... If so it would help eliminate a preparation step. If not, boiling does seem like a good option. I could boil off liters at a time. Im maxed out at 2 Liters on distillation set up. But EG bp is 197 C so this is a good suggestion. Thanks.

Im half tempted to just use NH4ClO4/DOT 3 fluid in the wrappolite package. NH4ClO4 fires pretty well versus nitrate. Maybe throw some PTFE in there... I will take a picture

Another thought is that if wrappolite is powerful enough, it could be folded into strips linearly. Could possibly reproduce the effect of a linear strip charge. They use PETN det cord for that, a few pieces side by side in duct tape... Im thinking wrappolite layered package confined with duct tape, with 2 sided tape on the back. Test it on a door...

Im actually installing a door this winter, will be at the door store. I wonder if they have cheap doors...

[Edited on 8-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

Update, okay I made one. Linear strip charge. Doesnt have PTFE tape just NH4ClO4 oxidizer on Dot 3 fluid which is mostly DEG/TEG.

[Edited on 8-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

Hey Buddy - 8-11-2023 at 19:28

Just for info: A majority of off the shelf DOT3 s are TEG monobutyl ether as major component DEG TEG as minor component or thirds. I calculated w/w based on TEGMBE which should approximate the other components.

For TEGMBE/NH4NO3 Optimum ratio based on valence is 5% TEGMBE / 95% NH4NO3. Which is surprisingly similar ratio to valence balanced ANFO (94.5/5.5) based on 14g unit hydrocarbon, but that's just a coincidence between their molecular weights and end state valences.

For KClO4/TEGMBE ratio is 82/18
NH4ClO4/TEGMBE ratio is 86/14

Those are ratios for dot 3/oxidizers with highest potential energy release. I will be testing some wrappolite linear charges starting with those ratios, then adding dot 3 as necessary to make a paste for coating foil. Will then test addition of fluorine.

[Edited on 9-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

KClO4/DOT 3 82/18 forms a moldable putty, similar consistency to playdough. Leaving a sample to sit overnight to determine curing character. DOT3 seems like a decent plasticizer, would probably do well with an added binder. Not sure on dermal toxicity...

[Edited on 9-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

Hey Buddy - 9-11-2023 at 21:25

The Dot 3 fluid used is PEAK blue mountain brand, it's available at nearest dollar store. KClO4 really absorbs well. After playing around with ratios starting from 82/18, I found the most energetic self sustaining burn was 75/25 KClO4/DOT3. It is a gel consistency. The KClO4 interaction seems more absorbed by the dot 3 than NH4ClO4. The NH4ClO4 charge was made the same manner as original wrappolite, but the KClO4 gel paints on more homogeneously so I will make a wrappolite with that 75/25 mix, will report back if they detonate on #8 equivalent.

Hey Buddy - 18-11-2023 at 16:14

Detonation didn't propagate on first attempt at AP/dot 3 using sprinkle method from the original wrappolite. I used heavy duty Al foil on this charge but I think light weight thin Al foil would be better, after attempting. I'm more confident in the KClO4/dot3 mix. It's a gel paste and can be brushed on. Will try that next and report.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-11-2023 at 13:48

Buddy.....on picture I see low critical dimeter about 10 - 15 mm. Especially for unknown composition is always better used firstly bigger diameter. For example thick cylinder 40 mm. And if it works, is possible go on 30 mm. At research of the new compositions is "The way is goal".
Wrappolite is not Detasheet with critical dimeter 3 mm..... :cool:

Hey Buddy - 19-11-2023 at 16:30

I thought it was a promising result. It destroyed maybe 15 cm. It just didnt propagate. Very light weight charge. It was only a sprinkling of AP on the dot3 foil. Stupidly I didnt weigh the AP first, I just sprinkled it on .75m^2 heavy foil, folded into strip. It was more of a hasty first examination. Fired with a 5.3 mm ID ,5 g cap of RDX. Gives a good idea of where to test next.
I think if more AP were used it would surely propagate. Im really interested in the KClO4 version because of the gel effect and easy sourcing of KClO4. Will test that first then return to AP. AP will work at correct ratios/critical diameter. AP also should have slight edge on bisance and sensitivity to propagation over nitrates at small critical diameter.
If linear strip charge can be produced then the next step is to add a linear rubber cutter to test on doors and walls. I found a heavy rubber "welcome" mat at hardware store. Dense rubber. Will heavily load the perchlorate gel on next test...

Screenshot at 2023-11-19 18-25-28.png - 1.1MB

Screw it, im going to just build the KClO4 gel and fire it right now tonight. Neighbor has been doing construction and blasting rock or something at like 4 am in morning. He is farmer. I will just do little baby blast before 10pm. I think it's ok.

[Edited on 20-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]
Dang just lost my blast window. Will blast in morning.

[Edited on 20-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

This is KClO4 in DOT3 @ 75/25. Charge prepared is 50g perchlorate/16 g DOT3 spread on 0.1 m^2 thin Al foil. Will follow up...

[Edited on 20-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]
1 partial det, one misfire. Ran out of caps. Will repeat test later...

[Edited on 20-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

pjig - 5-4-2024 at 12:44

Curious, if the original formulation was achieved through cheap Ethylene glycol antifreeze, which can be a mix of diethylene glycol, etc. (used as is)
Another source of ethylene glycol or possibly propylene glycol can be obtained through the big box stores for airless Paint sprayer lines during storage .painters will use this to keep their lines from freezing or getting coagulated.
. Just seeing if this OTC material is pure enough or free of diluted a.k.a. water for use directly out of container as a paint on foil and coat for the wrappolite.