Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Any reaction between AL and ETN?

Any reaction between AL and ETN?

BlackPowderBoy - 26-10-2022 at 21:32

Are there any adverse reactions between Aluminum and ETN? Except for sensitizing the ETN (which is what I want.) To give context, I need to make a detonator completely made out of ETN and before you say it's pointless, I know it has been tried and tried again. ETN detonators barely ever work. I'm honestly just hoping that my research proves futile and there are methods of making a RELIABLE ETN detonator that I haven't found yet. I recently came across a diagram that I may have found on here, tbh I forgot. It Illustrates the mixing of 100mg ETN + 5% Aluminum powder, folding in foil, and then wrapping that foil around three sets of fuses that are in touching proximity. (I know it sounds janky but stay with me) according to the photo, it works "10/10" times (I'll leave a pic in this post) and I'm wondering if that sounds like it would even work. Or even be reliable. This is probably my last go at a reliable yet easy to make detonator before I just try and buy a whole distillation set and fume hood. Which would of course propel my research into more advanced energetics and acids. But that's why I'm posting this is because I don't have the space for a distillation set, fume hood, etc, blah blah unrelated. Thanks

B(a)P - 27-10-2022 at 02:18

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13502
Have you read this thread?

Edit

It seems you have, that is likely where you found that image.

[Edited on 27-10-2022 by B(a)P]

Sir_Gawain - 27-10-2022 at 06:20

I've done many experiments with ETN detonators and found copper based thermite works fairly well with good confinement. Recently I've been testing a oxygen balanced mixture of ETN and nitroguanidine. When ignited, it burns rapidly and completely. I think this composition would undergo DDT better than just ETN.

However, none of these DDT detonators have come even close to the simple EBW detonators system I built. It uses a microwave oven capacitor and works every time.

BlackPowderBoy - 27-10-2022 at 13:16

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13502
Have you read this thread?

Edit

It seems you have, that is likely where you found that image.

[Edited on 27-10-2022 by B(a)P]

Yes! I couldn't find the exact thread again so thank you. I'm about to actually attempt to use the method depicted in the photo. Hopefully it's not total shite.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 28-10-2022 at 01:17

The method burning - boiling ETN on alu foil can works pretty reliable. But exact time of start is in stars..... :cool:

DocX - 28-10-2022 at 07:25

Quote: Originally posted by BlackPowderBoy

To give context, I need to make a detonator completely made out of ETN and before you say it's pointless, I know it has been tried and tried again. ETN detonators barely ever work.

Really? Why don't they work? PETN detonators is definitely a thing, why wouldn't ETN detonators work?

BlackPowderBoy - 28-10-2022 at 17:43

Quote: Originally posted by DocX

Quote: Originally posted by BlackPowderBoy

To give context, I need to make a detonator completely made out of ETN and before you say it's pointless, I know it has been tried and tried again. ETN detonators barely ever work.

Really? Why don't they work? PETN detonators is definitely a thing, why wouldn't ETN detonators work?

I could be wrong but from the research I've done, most PETN detonators are made with an EBW. An EBW detonator would for sure detonate PETN and both ETN. As someone earlier in this post was saying that he made EBW detonators that work 100% of the time on ETN. The problem with this is that i'm trying to make a "fuse only" det for this which requires the ETN to undergo DDT. ETN is notoriously stubborn when it comes to DDT. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't unless of course you get the design very compact and practically perfect. Even then it's kind of a 50/50 chance. That's why I'm experimenting with different sensitizers like Aluminum. PETN could transition to detonation easier, that could be another reason PETN detonators are easier but I'm not sure though.

[Edited on 29-10-2022 by BlackPowderBoy]

Microtek - 31-10-2022 at 03:44

Does it have to be an NPED (no primary explosive detonator)? The classical method of making detonators is by using a small amount of primary explosive to initiate the secondary (the base charge). Of course, some primaries are quite sensitive, but it is entirely possible to make one that is less sensitive than ETN.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 31-10-2022 at 10:26

It is very difficult to construct in amateur practice NPED (reliable NPED) only on the basis of ETN and electrotechnical parts (e.g. EBW). Unlike primary-secondary substance synthesis.

MineMan - 31-10-2022 at 16:54

Quote: Originally posted by Microtek

Does it have to be an NPED (no primary explosive detonator)? The classical method of making detonators is by using a small amount of primary explosive to initiate the secondary (the base charge). Of course, some primaries are quite sensitive, but it is entirely possible to make one that is less sensitive than ETN.

Which primary would that be?

BlackPowderBoy - 2-11-2022 at 17:44

Quote: Originally posted by Microtek

I have been trying to make reliable NPED's (to no avail of course.) But if I were to make a primary, what would be the best one that isn't a peroxide? In your opinion.

[Edited on 3-11-2022 by BlackPowderBoy]

B(a)P - 2-11-2022 at 19:08

Ha! You have opened a can of worms there!
Have you seen this thread?
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=9984
Or this one?
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=146585
It somewhat depends on what you have available to you. I am not sure many people would claim a peroxide to be the 'best primary'.

BlackPowderBoy - 3-11-2022 at 00:57

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Ha! You have opened a can of worms there!
Have you seen this thread?
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=9984
Or this one?
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=146585
It somewhat depends on what you have available to you. I am not sure many people would claim a peroxide to be the 'best primary'.

I have seen the second one, haven't seen the first one. That one is of use, thank you. Also ya I wouldn't consider a peroxide a "best primary." or really a "best anything" tbh. I'm just curious what primaries are out there that are actually stable and not too dangerous to handle.

[Edited on 3-11-2022 by BlackPowderBoy]

B(a)P - 3-11-2022 at 01:15

In terms of stability and (comparatively) less dangerous to handle primaries you should check out Laboratory of Liptakov's work if you have not done so already. He has done some amazing work with hexamine/perchlorate compounds.
This would be the most relevant thread.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=158259
Personally, my area of interest is tetrazoles. As versatile as they are you can essentially tailor a compound to meet your needs.
I am currently experimenting with tetrazoleazasydnone and its salts to explore their energetic properties.

Hey Buddy - 6-11-2022 at 22:15

FYI, was just doing some number crunching on metal/oxidizers. For ETN and Al, in terms of CHO content and products after detonation, max energy should be available from 906.32 : 53.96 mass ratio which is weight percentage ratio:
ETN 94.4% / Al 5.6%

ManyInterests - 7-11-2022 at 08:03

I have a question about ETN and aluminum. Are they reactive in any way? I might want to melt-cast some ETN in an aluminum tube, will there be any danger of detonation if I heat up the ETN to 65-70C while it is in an aluminum tube?

Herr Haber - 7-11-2022 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

I have a question about ETN and aluminum. Are they reactive in any way? I might want to melt-cast some ETN in an aluminum tube, will there be any danger of detonation if I heat up the ETN to 65-70C while it is in an aluminum tube?

Many people have done that without reporting any problem using boiling water.
Just look at the pictures from the other topic. Copper is ok too.

Also, see Hey Buddy's last post right here. You can mix Al powder, ETN and melt cast it. In all cases, I dont recommend handling the molten ETN. Just put everything in your container and submerge in boiling water. Add water as needed if you are dealing with a big quantity. Do not put the thing on a stove. Boil the water separately.
I have curiosity with ETN + Al, Mg, Zr and would love to see the difference not only in output but recorded in slow motion.

Hey Buddy - 7-11-2022 at 15:24

Testing with ETN/PTFE/Al today. PTFE seems like a nice addition for pressing and fast fuel. Mix was ETN 81.5% PTFE 13.5% Al 5%. Mixed through mesh sieve. Behaves very similar to ETN and exhibits same Al Foil detonation effect but it seems to detonate a little sooner or with lower thermal energy. Still deflagrates under flame if not in contact w/ Al foil just like plain ETN. Im wondering if Al2O3 is what is interacting as a detonation catalyst such that flame oxidizes inner surface of foil, possibly releasing hot oxide gas which then somehow encourages detonation.

Maybe an Al Oxide ETN Mix experiment is called for.

I think the Al foil interaction with ETN is so universal, repeatable and unusual that it really is something that should be understood. I think this challenge is key to unlocking reliable DDT ETN Pyrotechnic comps.

Also attempted to DDT ETN and ETN/PTFE/Al using TiH2/KCLO4 ignitor compositions. Tests in 8mm OD SS bodies were not successful. Order of load was fuze>Pyrodex>TiH2/KCLO4>ETN or ETN/PTFE/Al. All tests were unsuccessful. Ti ignitor mixes are wicked.

Of Ignitor compositions: 68%/33% TiH2/KCLO4 was most impressive and fast. A version using TiH2/Si/KCLO4 was sluggish and made a lot of slag and seemed even less intense which was contrary to expectation.

MineMan - 7-11-2022 at 15:40

Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy

Testing with ETN/PTFE/Al today. PTFE seems like a nice addition for pressing and fast fuel. Mix was ETN 81.5% PTFE 13.5% Al 5%. Mixed through mesh sieve. Behaves very similar to ETN and exhibits same Al Foil detonation effect but it seems to detonate a little sooner or with lower thermal energy. Still deflagrates under flame if not in contact w/ Al foil just like plain ETN. Im wondering if Al2O3 is what is interacting as a detonation catalyst such that flame oxidizes inner surface of foil, possibly releasing hot oxide gas which then somehow encourages detonation.

Maybe an Al Oxide ETN Mix experiment is called for.

I think the Al foil interaction with ETN is so universal, repeatable and unusual that it really is something that should be understood. I think this challenge is key to unlocking reliable DDT ETN Pyrotechnic comps.

Also attempted to DDT ETN and ETN/PTFE/Al using TiH2/KCLO4 ignitor compositions. Tests in 8mm OD SS bodies were not successful. Order of load was fuze>Pyrodex>TiH2/KCLO4>ETN or ETN/PTFE/Al. All tests were unsuccessful. Ti ignitor mixes are wicked.

Of Ignitor compositions: 68%/33% TiH2/KCLO4 was most impressive and fast. A version using TiH2/Si/KCLO4 was sluggish and made a lot of slag and seemed even less intense which was contrary to expectation.

Mg works better than Al for ETN. But using Al, you probably need 10 percent, but keep PTFE at same percentage. I would also consider adding copper oxide or hexamine, which both greatly encourage DDT. This should work, and if it does not, a 100mg of flash powder on the top of the tube should make it work. The issue being these mixes will approach the sensitivity
of primaries. I posted earlier several years ago about an ETN, PP and Mg mix. Sodium hypophosphite could also greatly increase DDT. The conclusion that I think many came to however, is that it’s far simpler to use CHP. Of course. A mixture that DDT without grain size and pressing would be fire. With a strong tube, PTFE, copper oxide, and Al I see that possible.