Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Unusual ways of making ammonia

sceptic - 7-6-2022 at 21:20

Hello,
I realise this isn't a new question, but I haven't been able to find a method that I can use. I need ammonia for some experiments I'd like to do, but I don't know of any way to get it. I live in southern Africa, so I can't find any cleaners containing ammonia, and I'm not able to get urea or any ammonium salts. Does anyone know any other methods?

B(a)P - 8-6-2022 at 02:32

There are definitely already more posts on this forum about urine than there should be, but urine is a source of urea.
Do you have access to adblue or similar? It is a diesel exhaust fluid used in vehicles with Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) technology. It is essentially just a urea solution.
Is ammonium carbonate available to you? it is a common food additive.

sceptic - 8-6-2022 at 03:04

I know I could probably use urine, but I'd really rather not work with that.
I've never come across something like adblue here, but I've never looked for it before. I'll see if I can find it, thank you for the recommendation.
I've never found ammonium carbonate here.

B(a)P - 8-6-2022 at 03:59

What are the restrictions on accessing ammonia in your country? Is it illegal to purchase urea or an ammonia based fertiliser from another jurisdiction? is it illegal to posses the aforementioned chemicals? I am guessing so otherwise you would simply purchase the appropriate precursors online?

sceptic - 8-6-2022 at 04:57

There are no restrictions that I know of, it's just that no one seems to use it around here. I've thought about getting some precursors shipped here, but postage is quite expensive, slow, and not very reliable. Most of the suppliers I've found for urea are out of the country, and mostly in bulk.

PirateDocBrown - 8-6-2022 at 09:28

Ammonium chloride is used as a treatment for goats, maybe some veterinary medicine might have some.
Ammonium phosphate is a common fertilizer.
I'm quite surprised you can't get urea or carbamate fertilizer, as well.
DEF has been mentioned.
Ammonium carbonate is used as a baking powder. Try a place that supplies that.

sceptic - 8-6-2022 at 10:57

I'll try looking for ammonium chloride, thank you.
There's really not much professional farming around here, so I've never seen any fertiliser being sold other than various types of manure. The only baking powder I've ever seen here is bicarbonate of soda.

One process I've thought about is reacting some calcium or lithium with nitrogen, then combining the nitride with water. Both of them react at room temperature, and I can probably get them both. The problem with that is that I have no way of converting the lithium or calcium hydroxide back into the metal, and without that this would be a very expensive way of making ammonia. Is there any way to do this, or isn't this a realistic path?

Tsjerk - 8-6-2022 at 11:38

Of course I don't know how the availability of chemicals is in certain parts of Africa, and I know it is already bad in South Africa, using calcium or lithium to produce ammonia seems absurd. You can't tell me the supplier of these metals can't supply ammonia.

Bedlasky - 8-6-2022 at 12:30

You should find urea in every gardening store. Look for some urea based fertilizers there.

In my country, 25% ammonia is sold in shops with paints and polishes. Try to look there. It is used for treatment of zinc sheets and eaves before painting.

Jenks - 8-6-2022 at 15:49

Ammonium nitrate is used in cold packs. They contain a vial of water which, when it breaks, dissolves the ammonium nitrate, absorbing heat.

I know you said you don't want to work with urine, but if there is a place that is releasing ammonia, such as a compost pile, if you can get acid you could absorb the ambient ammonia into a solution of the acid and later liberate the ammonia by adding base. I think I even saw a proposal once to capture ammonia from compost while biogas is itself being captured. Compost having more protein in it, such as animal waste, will release more ammonia.

Even if there are no farming supply stores, any garden or houseplant supply section should have some kind of fertilizer, which should have some kind of ammonia source in it.

Which country are you in?

j_sum1 - 8-6-2022 at 18:29

(Impure) ammonium sulfate is a really common fertiliser where I live.
Another possibility is to look for products designed for polishing silverware. (Brasso or Silvo). These have a high concentration of ammonia in solution. Or, likely a lot cheaper, read carefully the ingredients on some floor cleaners.

sceptic - 8-6-2022 at 21:08

I don't have a supplier for lithium or calcium, I can get lithium from lithium batteries, and I should be able to make a small amount of sodium and use that to make some calcium.
I've never seen chemical fertilisers here, even in gardening stores, only manure.
I'll try looking for cold packs, thank you.
That suggestion about capturing ambient ammonia with acid is a good idea. I have some cats, so ammonia gas is in pretty ready supply. I'll try that, thank you.
I live in northern Botswana.

XeonTheMGPony - 9-6-2022 at 04:41

Quote: Originally posted by sceptic  
Hello,
I realise this isn't a new question, but I haven't been able to find a method that I can use. I need ammonia for some experiments I'd like to do, but I don't know of any way to get it. I live in southern Africa, so I can't find any cleaners containing ammonia, and I'm not able to get urea or any ammonium salts. Does anyone know any other methods?


Destructive distillation of protein, such as horn and hair.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=151170

Attachment: Ammonia from organics.pdf (2.2MB)
This file has been downloaded 216 times

[Edited on 9-6-2022 by XeonTheMGPony]

Herr Haber - 9-6-2022 at 07:16

Not of any immediate help to you but as I couldnt believe there was no market for fertilizers in Botswana I did a little research.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.CON.FERT.ZS?location...

If you compare to other countries, I'm pretty sure Botswana has a great interior market for fertilizers !
You should be able to find a farmer who can send you the right way.

But if you do hire your cats as acomplices for the endeavour make sure to take pictures of the process and document it.
I'm not certain, but this probably would be the most fun OTC project on the forum ;)

sceptic - 9-6-2022 at 10:46

If I can't get ammonia from the cat litter, I'll try to find a way of distilling hair. Cats provide plenty of that too :D Unfortunately I don't have a good distillation setup at the moment, otherwise I'd try that first.

That information about fertilisers is interesting, I never would have guessed that. I just looked it up, and it looks like most of Botswana's commercial farming is in the east and south, so it's at least a few hours away.

I'm planning to start the experiment tomorrow morning, and I'll post my process here.
I don't really think I'd call working with cat litter a fun project :P

j_sum1 - 9-6-2022 at 19:17

Correct me if I am wrong, but cyanuric acid, sold as swimming pool stabiliser might be a convenient precursor to nitrogenous compounds, and I believe it is reasonable easy to get in SA.
I will let someone a bit more knowledgeable than me suggest an optimal route from cyanuric acid to ammonia.

Texium - 9-6-2022 at 19:23

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Correct me if I am wrong, but cyanuric acid, sold as swimming pool stabiliser might be a convenient precursor to nitrogenous compounds, and I believe it is reasonable easy to get in SA.
In SA maybe. Probably not in Botswana.

clearly_not_atara - 10-6-2022 at 06:56

^ Botswana's HDI is about the same as SA, so I figure they have a similar frequency of swimming pools.

Anyway, I was about to recommend something similar and possibly easier to find: melamine resin.

Acid hydrolysis of the resin removes formaldehyde:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/004051756603600...

while alkaline hydrolysis of melamine will release ammonia:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305731921_Catalytic...

This is a bit annoying, but melamine plastic is pretty ubiquitous, even, I think, in Africa.

Jenks - 10-6-2022 at 08:31

If you are near Francistown you could try Bene Chemicals (+267 73 838 258). Even if they are not near, they might at least know of a source of ammonia closer to where you live, or they might be able to ship to you.

Another idea I just had, ammonia is used as a refrigerant.

[Edited on 10-6-2022 by Jenks]

Herr Haber - 10-6-2022 at 11:45

Quote: Originally posted by sceptic  

I don't really think I'd call working with cat litter a fun project :P


Just make sure to use the proper pee-pee-eee ;)