Sciencemadness Discussion Board - RDX

RDX

OneShot - 19-3-2011 at 08:49

hello friends, I'm from Brazil I'm sorry for my english, I have a question, I have 150 grams of RDX (cyclotrimethylene) I have no idea what quantities to use to detonate. What to use as an explosive booster charge I own Tetryl and acetone peroxide are effective for these explosives detonated? how much do I need to get a good explosion? and what the barrel length for this to be done better?

sorry for my english thanks

[Edited on 19-3-2011 by OneShot]

quicksilver - 19-3-2011 at 12:32

Que você significa pelo "tambor"? Uma qualquer quantidade (de RDX) não explodirá, lá é nenhum mínimo. Entretanto os peróxidos são muito sensíveis aos estímulos. Um substituto deve ser fornecido.

En Ingles: the sensitivity of a peroxide is a poor idea in any event to use as an initiator. The term "barrel" is in question. RDX or for that matter any explosive that "detonates" does not require a container.

Portuguese is not too dissimilar from Spanish. Obtain quality scientific literature in Spanish regarding explosives before proceeding. To understand the "little things" that are extremely important for safety & learning - look for books on mining, industrial blasting, & related information. Obtain details in your native language first. It is ultimately important for safety. A small thing misunderstood could bring you harm. Learn the sensitivities of peroxides. They are many & difficult to control unless you understand them completely. Even then, many have been hurt because the material is so sensitive and stimulus must be constantly controlled.

OneShot - 20-3-2011 at 06:03

yes i understand but wanted to know the minimum amount for someone who has done this to avoid accidents,which book you would indicate me?

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by OneShot]

quicksilver - 20-3-2011 at 07:33

First look at translations of English language books from authors such as Davis and Nauom. This Forum has both I believe but translations may exist as well. Title: Chemistry of Powder & Explosives- Davis.
Do a search for "TRANSLATIONS". Check local libraries both public & university. You will find very important material.

Bot0nist - 20-3-2011 at 07:41

Quote: Originally posted by OneShot

yes i understand but wanted to know the minimum amount for someone who has done this to avoid accidents,which book you would indicate me?

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by OneShot]

I would imagine that the minimum amount of RDX that , for someone inexperienced, would eliminate the possibility of accidents is around 0 grams.

Have fun

.

All joking aside, I am halfway through Davis, and it is an amazing read. I really hope your able to find a good translation. Good luck my friend, and please be safe.

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

quicksilver - 20-3-2011 at 12:35

É muito importante para que você possa tirar o máximo de suas informações de livros de ciência. Obtenção de informações na internet não é segura.
O que as pessoas profissional fazer é ler - isso é muito importante. Lendo o livro da ciência e da química é a única maneira segura de uderstand o que você precisa para se manter seguro.

My Spanish is so so; not too bad; not too good. If you have trouble making yourself understood - write the question in Portuguese, I will figure it out. If you can take the time to try to read my English I can certainly take the time to work with your question in Spanish. I am only concerned for safety.

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by quicksilver]

OneShot - 20-3-2011 at 18:23

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

É muito importante para que você possa tirar o máximo de suas informações de livros de ciência. Obtenção de informações na internet não é segura.
O que as pessoas profissional fazer é ler - isso é muito importante. Lendo o livro da ciência e da química é a única maneira segura de uderstand o que você precisa para se manter seguro.

My Spanish is so so; not too bad; not too good. If you have trouble making yourself understood - write the question in Portuguese, I will figure it out. If you can take the time to try to read my English I can certainly take the time to work with your question in Spanish. I am only concerned for safety.

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by quicksilver]

you spoke my language properly thank you have the link to download this book and the translation I use the translator goolgle thanks!

OneShot - 20-3-2011 at 18:29

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

Quote: Originally posted by OneShot

yes i understand but wanted to know the minimum amount for someone who has done this to avoid accidents,which book you would indicate me?

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by OneShot]

I would imagine that the minimum amount of RDX that , for someone inexperienced, would eliminate the possibility of accidents is around 0 grams.

Have fun

I have a collection of books called "Massive Chemistry and explosives book collection - COMPLETED " is good these books?

OneShot - 20-3-2011 at 18:30

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

First look at translations of English language books from authors such as Davis and Nauom. This Forum has both I believe but translations may exist as well. Title: Chemistry of Powder & Explosives- Davis.
Do a search for "TRANSLATIONS". Check local libraries both public & university. You will find very important material.

thanks

quicksilver - 21-3-2011 at 06:36

Most are fine: read Davis first. Study the "Preparations" in that book. Reading and studying are the most important thing you can do now. Learn the elemental chemistry - it will not be too difficult. That will allow you to proceed with a larger understanding of this issues.

OneShot - 21-3-2011 at 09:42

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

Most are fine: read Davis first. Study the "Preparations" in that book. Reading and studying are the most important thing you can do now. Learn the elemental chemistry - it will not be too difficult. That will allow you to proceed with a larger understanding of this issues.

quiksilver, I understood more about reading the books as I am Brazilian, I have difficulty in translation because the files are in pdf scanner and books, so I do want to have the approximate amount if you guys know how to avoid guess work to explode the rdx would require approximately about 5 grams of acetone peroxide and 30 grams of tetryl in a tube inside the rdx that everything will be in another, I did not want to put too much not to lose that tetryl is very expensive if you know more or less quantities please give me a light. Thank you for your patience and understanding

Bot0nist - 21-3-2011 at 10:20

I think your asking how large of an organic peroxide blasting cap is needed, and how much trinitrophenylmethylnitramine would be effective to shoot a 150gram RDX charge.

You may have trouble getting answers to your question here for a couple of reasons.

1. Qiucksilver clarified to you that an organic peroxide will not make a suitable initiator, not because it lacks the necessary power, but because its EXTREMELY sensitive and unpredictable nature makes it seem suicidal to use at all, let alone in a larger charge. Even though this has been explained, you seem determined to try it. Which is detrimental to your future well being.

2. Discussing the amounts of primaries and boosters needed to detonate X amount of HE goes a little beyond the scope of this forum IMO, so some members may be hesitant to reply. I am new here though, so I could be dead wrong.

[Edited on 21-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

quicksilver - 21-3-2011 at 12:09

@ Bot0nist :

I believe what you're saying is right on the money.

From examples set in history both accident and in study, it is within possibility for a single primary train to initiate a ridiculously large amount of sensitive secondary explosive. Within theory, a single detonation could initiate a charge cubed upon it's weight. This is dependent upon factors such as sensitivity and placement; "carriage-wave" and weight orientation of a secondary such as the sensitivity of PETN or RDX (which are very similar in many ways regarding detonation & activity).

I [personally] have very strong issues with highly sensitive energetic peroxides. TATP is actually not nearly as effective initiator as HMTP; however both are SO sensitive that their use is a higher gamble. Particularly TATP, which has a ridiculously high sensitivity to static stimuli in addition to storage and design issues (dimer, trimer, etc). No professional organization has ever put forward TATP as a serious candidate, even when the demands of energetic peroxides were addressed via non-metallic capsules (Davis,1943: Hartwig, 1934). Unfortunately HMTP is so sensitive that it had also been left to a curiosity due to static & friction sensitivity even though it's initiation ability was very high & effective.

However generally speaking, single initiator designs (caps, detonators) are defendant upon "client" secondary, design configuration- insertion point, weight, density, chemical-configuration, & purpose. Thus an answer to such a question as "how much" initiator to how much secondary begs further information to a point of almost infinite possibilities. Being too unspecific a question; it would demand "sub-sets" of usage & environment even when a known secondary weight is present. This is exactly WHY independent study is mandatory..... - So that safety through understanding energetic materials becomes the basis for the question; to be specific and the usage / environment is transparent to the discussion.
One should ALWAYS have a basis for knowledge that is well researched when dealing with an issue of potential danger, etc & never depend upon the opinions of unknown others but rather, the well documented research of science & history of success and failure to begin a productive dialog.

[Edited on 21-3-2011 by quicksilver]

AndersHoveland - 21-3-2011 at 12:12

I believe the term you mean is "critical diameter". This report mentions a charge of composition B detonating, which had a diameter of only 25.5 mm. From this, it can be inferred that a piece of RDX with a diameter of only 2.5 cm can be detonated, and probably smaller than that.
http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/4134...

Not only is AP very unsafe, but it is also a poor initiator of other main charges since it is mostly an "entropic explosive" (most of the effective energy released is in the form of resultant gases that take up a larger volume, not heat)

quicksilver - 21-3-2011 at 12:21

RDX has been used in the base charge of a det cap that is 6mm OD therefore I would imagine that diameter is less important than density.

edit:
I'm thinking in Spanish now, so I am having to rewrite many things.

RDX se ha utilizado en la carga de la base de un tope detonante que es de 6 mm OD por lo tanto me imagino que el diámetro es menos importante que la densidad.

[Edited on 21-3-2011 by quicksilver]

Bot0nist - 21-3-2011 at 12:27

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

"One should ALWAYS have a basis for knowledge that is well researched when dealing with an issue of potential danger, etc & never depend upon the opinions of unknown others but rather, the well documented research of science & history of success and failure"...
[Edited on 21-3-2011 by quicksilver]

Wiser words were never spoken. That's almost good enough to make be signature.

OneShot - 21-3-2011 at 20:30

my friends, I understood that you guys told me but forgot to mention that I am not inexperienced, I am pharmacist, biochemist and chemist, but I guess my question is more about the physics maths chemistry own, I do not understand about physics and math, I know the properties and dangerousness of all test elements cited in addition to knowing how to synthesize them, TATP is extremely sensitive not I be making more PETN what is best for my purpose because in my country does not think Pentaerythritol here acetaldehyde costing $ 375 or $ 150, would be very expensive, I know how to synthesize a great deal of explosives, and Too I've brought up some, got some projects to create the foundation for explosive organic compounds, but I am humbled to come here to ask about explosives, I made a simple question what kind of explosives and what diameter and length of the load that I have to put in 150 grams of RDX to have a good blasting technique leaves the party I myself, I love the chemistry and extreme energetic materials, I am a person who paid for my own costs, one day I can make a revolution in this type of area God willing, will greatly enhance the building among other things, even if it costs my life.

thanks

mis amigos, he entendido que ustedes me dijo, pero se olvidó de mencionar que no soy inexperto, yo soy bioquímico farmacéutico y químico, pero supongo que mi pregunta es más sobre la química de la física matemática, yo no entiendo de física y matemáticas, que conocer las propiedades y la peligrosidad de todos los elementos de prueba citados, además de conocer la forma de sintetizar, TATP es extremadamente sensible, no puedo estar haciendo más PETN lo que es mejor para mi propósito, porque en mi país no piensa Pentaeritrita aquí acetaldehído un costo de $ 375 o $ 150, sería muy caro, yo sé cómo sintetizar una gran cantidad de explosivos, y también me he criado algunos, tiene algunos proyectos para crear las bases de explosivos compuestos orgánicos, pero me siento muy honrado de venir aquí a preguntar por explosivos, hice una simple pregunta ¿qué tipo de explosivos y qué diámetro y la longitud de la carga que tengo que poner en 150 gramos de RDX para tener una buena técnica de chorro que sale de la parte que a mí mismo, me encanta la química y la extrema materiales energéticos, soy una persona que pagó por mis propias costas, un día me puede hacer una revolución en este tipo de área si Dios quiere, aumentará en gran medida la construcción, entre otras cosas, aunque me cueste la vida.

gracias

Bot0nist - 21-3-2011 at 20:45

Lol, Now i'm sure that this doesn't belong here. I doubt anyone here will want to help you prepare, or give you much advice on using explosives to start a revolution. Amateur chemistry has a hard enough time with people coming onto chemistry boards and trying to obtain information on how to kill people/destroy property. If you need any further help with the real world, practical applications of energetic materials, or another tips you may need to kick off a good coup, then I suggest you visit the E&W forum, as it doesn't belong here.

maybe here is good.
http://www.roguesci.org/

OneShot - 21-3-2011 at 21:07

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

Lol, Now i'm sure that this doesn't belong here. I doubt anyone here will want to help you prepare, or give you much advice on using explosives to start a revolution. Amateur chemistry has a hard enough time with people coming onto chemistry boards and trying to obtain information on how to kill people/destroy property. If you need any further help with the real world, practical applications of energetic materials, or another tips you may need to kick off a good coup, then I suggest you visit the E&W forum, as it doesn't belong here.

maybe here is good.
http://www.roguesci.org/

I want to be clear! I'm not here to match any type of terrorist attack killing people or something, my country is at peace, my questions are is to scientific knowledge, if someone did not want to give me information I will get her alone, but it took a little longer for that, I'm doing my studies here by accurate calculations of a diameter of 10cm and a density of at least 1.5 with 75% of tube tetryl and 25% of TATP. am I wrong?

thanks

Bot0nist - 22-3-2011 at 05:48

My apologies OneShot. I may have misinterpreted some of your post. I am glad to hear you have peaceful intentions. Peaceful means are probably the best way to bring about meaningful change in a community anyways. I know armed revolutions can and do happen in this day and age, but I bet most times it just ends with lots of lives lost and no real change.

Back to your question. So 150g cyclotrimethylene pressed, and 5g TATP with 75%(of the volume of the 'tube' containing the TATP I assume?) of tetryl booster, right?

TATP isn't the best initiator, but if it shoots the tetryl it should work. Have you done some small scale tests to see it TATP will effectively initiate the tetryl?

The material of the cap plays a roll, as softer materials tend to 'balloon' out before breaking. Pushing the secondary away at the last moment. Of coarse brittle metal casing are probably best, but you should NOT PUT PEROXIDES IN METAL CONFINEMENT anyways. Placement of the Cap/booster is important as well, and there is a lot of well documented work on this subject, as it has been one of the most commercial applications of chemistry in history. I realize though that you may have trouble with the availability of literature in you language/location.

I really can't give you a sure answer as to will it go full-order or just pop. There are just to many variables to consider. Good luck, and please keep the safety of yourself and other in mind at all times.

Edit: P.S. "I love the chemistry and extreme energetic materials, I am a person who paid for my own costs, one day I can make a revolution in this type of area God willing, will greatly enhance the building among other things, even if it costs my life.", said OneShot.

That sentence isn't encouraging, by the way. It's more than a little cause for apprehension IMHO.

[Edited on 22-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

quicksilver - 22-3-2011 at 07:16

Oneshot: what Bot0nist was saying was that in terms of the rules of the forum, the specifics are that we do not enter into "practical applications" of energetic materials. This is a thin line I know (e difícil) and he was not saying anything negative about your question I am fairly sure.

The "line" is a difficult one to describe and often it is close to impossible to describe in certain areas. We do this for many reasons. One of them is that safety can only be implemented by the individual. Therefore it is very important for you to get as much information in the area of practical application from your own research. That way you will know what level of science has been applied to the answer you find. We want you to be safe. We also want you to have the information. However too often when information is written from one person to another little issues can be overlooked. It is most often, not intentional. But the issues are very serious; the subject very complex and potentially dangerous. We do care about our member's safety. The only way that can be accomplished is for the individual to seek the best sources of information - those that are published.

-=Vou TENTAR traduzir......

A "linha" é difícil de descrever e muitas vezes é quase impossível de descrever em determinadas áreas. Fazemos isso por várias razões. Um deles é que a segurança só pode ser implementado pelo indivíduo. Por isso, é muito importante para você obter o máximo de informações no domínio da aplicação prática da sua própria investigação. Dessa forma, você vai saber qual o nível da ciência tem sido aplicada para a resposta que você encontrar. Nós queremos que você seja salvo. Nós também queremos que você tenha as informações. mas muitas vezes quando a informação é escrita de uma pessoa para outra, pequenos problemas podem ser negligenciados. É na maioria das vezes, não intencional. Mas as questões são muito sérias, o assunto muito complexo e potencialmente perigosos. Nós nos importamos com a segurança de nossos membros!

I also agree that the choice of words is worrying. Negligence through ignorance or other self defeating issues are what causes injury. Too often those injuries are not what results in death but the loss of a hand, or sight, castration, or disfigurement.
Contribution in science is rarely a question of loss of sight or disfigurement if the scientist has done his "homework". If not; the actual contribution is often in the area of (attempted) reconstructive surgery & emergency medicine. The Good Lord gave us a brain to think with & learn. Rarely does He seek a gamble in areas of knowledge that others have paid for previously.
Let us move on from here now. I hope your question was answered to the degree that we can do so.

[Edited on 22-3-2011 by quicksilver]

OneShot - 22-3-2011 at 08:08

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

My apologies OneShot. I may have misinterpreted some of your post. I am glad to hear you have peaceful intentions. Peaceful means are probably the best way to bring about meaningful change in a community anyways. I know armed revolutions can and do happen in this day and age, but I bet most times it just ends with lots of lives lost and no real change.

Back to your question. So 150g cyclotrimethylene pressed, and 5g TATP with 75%(of the volume of the 'tube' containing the TATP I assume?) of tetryl booster, right?

TATP isn't the best initiator, but if it shoots the tetryl it should work. Have you done some small scale tests to see it TATP will effectively initiate the tetryl?

The material of the cap plays a roll, as softer materials tend to 'balloon' out before breaking. Pushing the secondary away at the last moment. Of coarse brittle metal casing are probably best, but you should NOT PUT PEROXIDES IN METAL CONFINEMENT anyways. Placement of the Cap/booster is important as well, and there is a lot of well documented work on this subject, as it has been one of the most commercial applications of chemistry in history. I realize though that you may have trouble with the availability of literature in you language/location.

I really can't give you a sure answer as to will it go full-order or just pop. There are just to many variables to consider. Good luck, and please keep the safety of yourself and other in mind at all times.

Edit: P.S. "I love the chemistry and extreme energetic materials, I am a person who paid for my own costs, one day I can make a revolution in this type of area God willing, will greatly enhance the building among other things, even if it costs my life.", said OneShot.

That sentence isn't encouraging, by the way. It's more than a little cause for apprehension IMHO.

[Edited on 22-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

thanks, I understand that I can not confine TATP and tetryl in metal pipes, the more they would be better, I saw people putting plastic or detonators to detonate the pipe ampho I wondered whether to detonate the rdx is easier the more I'm Too I theory it would launch the tetryl-shaped balloon and not directing down because of their fragility the pvc pipe that does not deliver good structure, it would be better to put in aluminum pipe?

OneShot - 22-3-2011 at 08:10

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

Oneshot: what Bot0nist was saying was that in terms of the rules of the forum, the specifics are that we do not enter into "practical applications" of energetic materials. This is a thin line I know (e difícil) and he was not saying anything negative about your question I am fairly sure.

The "line" is a difficult one to describe and often it is close to impossible to describe in certain areas. We do this for many reasons. One of them is that safety can only be implemented by the individual. Therefore it is very important for you to get as much information in the area of practical application from your own research. That way you will know what level of science has been applied to the answer you find. We want you to be safe. We also want you to have the information. However too often when information is written from one person to another little issues can be overlooked. It is most often, not intentional. But the issues are very serious; the subject very complex and potentially dangerous. We do care about our member's safety. The only way that can be accomplished is for the individual to seek the best sources of information - those that are published.

-=Vou TENTAR traduzir......

A "linha" é difícil de descrever e muitas vezes é quase impossível de descrever em determinadas áreas. Fazemos isso por várias razões. Um deles é que a segurança só pode ser implementado pelo indivíduo. Por isso, é muito importante para você obter o máximo de informações no domínio da aplicação prática da sua própria investigação. Dessa forma, você vai saber qual o nível da ciência tem sido aplicada para a resposta que você encontrar. Nós queremos que você seja salvo. Nós também queremos que você tenha as informações. mas muitas vezes quando a informação é escrita de uma pessoa para outra, pequenos problemas podem ser negligenciados. É na maioria das vezes, não intencional. Mas as questões são muito sérias, o assunto muito complexo e potencialmente perigosos. Nós nos importamos com a segurança de nossos membros!

I also agree that the choice of words is worrying. Negligence through ignorance or other self defeating issues are what causes injury. Too often those injuries are not what results in death but the loss of a hand, or sight, castration, or disfigurement.
Contribution in science is rarely a question of loss of sight or disfigurement if the scientist has done his "homework". If not; the actual contribution is often in the area of (attempted) reconstructive surgery & emergency medicine. The Good Lord gave us a brain to think with & learn. Rarely does He seek a gamble in areas of knowledge that others have paid for previously.
Let us move on from here now. I hope your question was answered to the degree that we can do so.

[Edited on 22-3-2011 by quicksilver]

I'm in the wrong place at the forum is how you pass me the link quiksilver? I also understand your concern you knows a person skilled in the practice of explosives could you tell me? I can trust?

thanks

[Edited on 22-3-2011 by OneShot]

quicksilver - 22-3-2011 at 08:23

Quote: Originally posted by OneShot

I have not kept up with many of the other places. One of them stopped totally (Explosive & Weapons Forum). But there ARE other places that deal with the PRACTICAL issues as you would want!
I am not saying they are good or bad however.......

Any suggestions for this man?

OneShot - 22-3-2011 at 09:05

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

Quote: Originally posted by OneShot

quiksiver

You already blew up some kind of explosive that you could give me an idea that you used to detonate it?

thanks

quicksilver - 22-3-2011 at 16:07

I don't have enough experience in that regard to answer that.
Perhaps this place (below) may have some more information in that venue:
http://www.bombshock.com

Bot0nist - 22-3-2011 at 16:17

I believe the <a href="http://www.bombshock.com/homemade_bombs/">explosives</a> section of that site is now closed. I may have overlooked it on the forum though. Still, I found some interesting articles there. thanks for the link.

[Edited on 23-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

OneShot - 22-3-2011 at 19:38

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

I don't have enough experience in that regard to answer that.
Perhaps this place (below) may have some more information in that venue:
http://www.bombshock.com

thanks for the link

[Edited on 23-3-2011 by OneShot]

OneShot - 22-3-2011 at 19:43

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

I don't have enough experience in that regard to answer that.
Perhaps this place (below) may have some more information in that venue:
http://www.bombshock.com

quiksilver I found a very interesting site on making explosives there to see you guys trust him ?

http://www.digitalprecursor.org/roguesci/chemlab/energetics/...

thanks

Bert - 22-3-2011 at 20:14

If you found those links valuable, you will want to research TOTSE as well.

http://templeofthescreamingelectron.blogspot.com/2009/03/con...

OneShot - 22-3-2011 at 20:53

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

If you found those links valuable, you will want to research TOTSE as well.

http://templeofthescreamingelectron.blogspot.com/2009/03/con...

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk LOL

OneShot - 24-3-2011 at 11:31

please help !

madscientist - 24-3-2011 at 12:37

Imagine the stupidest thing you've ever seen in your life, and laughing yourself to tears while reading it. Now imagine a brain damaged version of this, on a potentially lethally topic. That's what defined Bombshock.

It seems to have mutated into some strange text file selling spam site. I wouldn't bother reading anything there, unless you find emptying your wallet to learn how to kill yourself appealing.

Anyway, this isn't the place to ask how to blow shit up, nor is it the place to ask where to ask how to blow shit up. Thread locked.