Creating static electricity in a very vigorous chemical reactions.

Quote: Originally posted by Texium

What do you even mean by a “stormy” chemical reaction? That doesn’t make any sense.

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium

Seems like another complicated and inefficient way to do something simple ...As you know, metals have a tendency to loose electron while insulators can gain electrons, hence the development of charges with enormous potential (10s or 100s of thousands of volts) but virtually NO current (except very large discharges like lightning ). Running any fluid through an insulated nozzle will gain a net charge which is why gasoline pumps are insulated and you should always discharge potential static before pumping gas in colder, dryer months. Any industrial process involving the transfer of fluids with metal pipes (including the tanker truck delivering gas by the way..) is usually grounded for that reason. Other than that, generating large amount of gasses from a chemical reaction for the purpose of accumulating small static charges, is kind of a waste of time, chemicals and effort in my view.

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan

Seeing the coulombic bang of melting sodium floating on water, I've wondered if you could put an electrode in the sodium and draw off or capture some of the spike in voltage or in some way measure the discharge potential. Around the 12:30 mark there're some examples of dust explosions, one demonstration using sulfur. "Using this equipment, Mr. Kent and Mr. Brown have tested flour, rust, sulfur, coal, ...." https://youtu.be/cUs0ix10SoY "6. Dust storms crackled with powerful static electricity." https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-abou... One time at night in a snowstorm in Farmington, Ct. I was in a spacious bedroom with 4 large arched windows. The thunder and lightning was tremendous. The neat thing was the fluxuation from pitch dark to bright white with snow blanketing the ground reflecting the light. And here some faint sparks in one example approaching 17 cm from two shower head arrangements making raindrops. I can't help but think how fun it might be if improved with an idealised design. https://youtu.be/698F700PM2Y

Static electricity from jets of fluid is called the Armstrong effect and it has been know for almost 200 years.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_effect

"The Armstrong effect is the physical process by which static electricity is produced by the friction of a fluid. It was first discovered in 1840 when an electrical spark resulted from water droplets being swept out by escaping steam from a boiler. The effect is named after William Armstrong,"

and here is a picture of a generator from that wiki article.


PS: Neptune: I would expect a pump (more specifically the nozzle) transferring flammable liquids to be earthed to avoid it turning in to an Armstrong generator.


[Edited on 12/1/2021 by wg48temp9]

Quote: Originally posted by wg48temp9

Static electricity from jets of fluid is called the Armstrong effect and it has been know for almost 200 years. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_effect "The Armstrong effect is the physical process by which static electricity is produced by the friction of a fluid. It was first discovered in 1840 when an electrical spark resulted from water droplets being swept out by escaping steam from a boiler. The effect is named after William Armstrong," and here is a picture of a generator from that wiki article. PS: Neptune: I would expect a pump (more specifically the nozzle) transferring flammable liquids to be earthed to avoid it turning in to an Armstrong generator. [Edited on 12/1/2021 by wg48temp9]

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan

I remember thinking about buying some Teflon tubing for experiments after reading this from a company that sells Teflon tubing. They warned buyers not to use their tubing with steam. One time I bought an old fire extinguisher with the braided wire mesh over the tubing rusted and the continuity broken. It shocked me pretty good when I went to discharge it. The admonishment ... "So when a liquid contacts a PTFE tube that isn’t a good conductor (white PTFE innercore), the result is phase separation and the electric charge starts to build. The rate at which static electricity builds up now becomes a function of the fluid flow rate. When the dielectric strength of the PTFE tube is exceeded, the electric charge will puncture the tube wall and ground itself on the stainless steel braid of the hose. Steam and fuels are two specific areas of concern. No hoses in this catalog can or should be used in steam applications." This electrophorus effect would be fun to try scaling up the surface area say by using four of the RMax 4ft x 8ft Thermasheath foam boards - basically aluminum foil over Styrofoam. https://youtu.be/axgG_aSLKPM

Cool, Morgan, your contributions are worth it! With the PTFE and steam, I'll try soon. Once upon a time, I made giant injections, similar to those used by doctors, but the difference is that I made them out of one metre-long quartz tubes of optical quality, I used rubber stoppers, like a plunger, and those stoppers were on a quartz rod. When I tried to suck the air out with this syringe, I heard a splutter, like a christmas sparkle being lit, so I did it in the dark, and where the plunger touched the quartz glass, the place shone strongly with blue-violet light! If you think of anything else, write!

Quote: Originally posted by Admagistr

Armstrong's electrostatic generator was the most powerful electrostatic generator of its time, unmatched by any other. I read that no one today knows how it was operated, how fuel was added to it without injuring the operator or possibly even killing an electrical discharge. Here's a very interesting video. But in this video, he didn't develop its full potential because of the relatively low pressure of steam... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMuYft_EXPE&t=1s

I would think operating (using) the generator would be obvious to anyone vaguely familiar with the operation of steam engines. Fill the boiler with water then light a fire in fire box. When the boiler pressure is sufficiently high turn on the valve that lead steam to the jets preferable with an insulated pole.

To add more fuel to the fire simple ground the system.

Check this youtube video of a small brass version of the generator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EBmhYqW0Xk



My understanding of the charging mechanism is: charge separation occurs between the nozzle and the exiting wet steam (water vapor and droplets of water). So its important that the nozzle is electrically conductive. I don't see how an insulating tube of PTFE or quartz could continuously provide a connection the charge generated inside the tube.

I first read about the effect in a very old static electricity book which described a steam powered generator that could produce 6ft sparks. Unfortunately it did not have details of the generator other than saying the charge was collected from the steam.

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan

That sounds interesting with the quartz tubes. I have several meter long Heraeus quartz tubes 19 X 25 mm that were for making fiber optic cable. I imagine the type of rubber stopper matters and perhaps you used a lubricant to help the plunger slide or maybe friction is what works? As an aside, rubbed with the right pressure with a damp cloth and held in the middle with a few fingers, the Heraeus quartz tubes will kill your ears with the resulting deafening sound they make. Something like this. https://youtu.be/sIw0Fh-fXIM No, I didn't use any lubrication at all. Friction, perhaps coupled with the difference in pressures on both ends of the rubber stopper was in play. The rubber stoppers are Czech made and look like this, only the size was bigger. They are simply ordinary and cheap rubber stoppers. Thanks so much for the new information! [Edited on 3-12-2021 by Admagistr]