Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Cutting with primary

Cutting with primary

pdb - 21-10-2021 at 06:56

Cutting test of bristol board with a primary explosive.The primer is nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate, with a linear density of 4.5 mg per cm.

Unfortunately, other than Edmund Herz's 1911 patent and its mention in COPAE, there are no studies of this primer that I know of. It has not found use because diazonium salts have a bad reputation for instability, and also because it is said to be hygrometric. I dispute this last point: I have kept samples of it for more than twenty years without noticing any hygrometry, nor any degradation except a darkening of its color.

It was used routinely in the laboratory by Henri Muraour (a French explosives researcher in the 1930s and 1940s) when he needed a particularly powerful primer. In my own tests, I estimate its priming power against PETN and RDX to be about twice that of AgN3 of equal weight.

I do not know its VOD.As for its sensitivity to mechanical actions, I tend to subjectively equate it to that of Hg(CNO)2. DDT is immediate, with no perceivable induction time.

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Edit(woelen): Fixed issue with one of the pictures on request of user pdb.

[Edited on 2-12-21 by woelen]

pdb - 21-10-2021 at 07:36

Next try with a 41 cm path. Photo quality is poor due to lack of light.

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Edit(woelen): Fixed issue with one of the pictures on request of user pdb.

[Edited on 2-12-21 by woelen]

Brightthermite - 21-10-2021 at 09:51

These are so cool

Fulmen - 21-10-2021 at 10:32

Bravo!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 21-10-2021 at 13:13

Finally someone with Art of primary compounds. Sometimes the VoD is not so important a like results. And this is the case.
Great work... :cool:

Maybe try use thin Copper plate. 0,1 mm I estimate. Detonography
is very interest art.

Brightthermite - 21-10-2021 at 16:46

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Finally someone with Art of primary compounds. Sometimes the VoD is not so important a like results. And this is the case.
Great work... :cool:

Maybe try use thin Copper plate. 0,1 mm I estimate. Detonography
is very interest art.

Beautiful!! Once I find something to act as a backing that is my next project!

pdb - 21-10-2021 at 22:59

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Finally someone with Art of primary compounds. Sometimes the VoD is not so important a like results. And this is the case.
Great work... :cool:

Maybe try use thin Copper plate. 0,1 mm I estimate. Detonography
is very interest art.

Yes, I have done detonography with a sheet of plexiglass to transmit the detonation wave. But your method with a water balloon is much easier and effective!

By the way, could you please check in the Russian literature if there is a study on nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate? Some years ago someone found a paper in Russian about dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate, but this compound is of no interest because it only deflagrates: even priming it with another primer, I couldn't get it to detonate.

Speaking of art, I have a "work" that I could call "entanglement". Look at the pictures

katyushaslab - 22-10-2021 at 02:46

nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate? Is that the one where you start with 3-nitroaniline, dissolve it in HClO4/HCl mixture and add NaNO2 to perform diazonation? I vaguely recall reading yourself and Microtek posts about it many years ago.

I also cannot for the life of me remember if HClO4 was strictly needed, or if a perchlorate salt worked fine.

Edit: Also, what are you using to "bind" your material here? Painting it on while wet and allowing to dry, or nitrocellulose/similar as a binder? I wonder if a thin layer of this material, bound with NC or similar painted onto an object such as a leaf, affixed to a metal plate could work for making artwork?

[Edited on 22-10-2021 by katyushaslab]

[Edited on 22-10-2021 by katyushaslab]

pdb - 22-10-2021 at 07:29

Quote: Originally posted by katyushaslab

nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate? Is that the one where you start with 3-nitroaniline, dissolve it in HClO4/HCl mixture and add NaNO2 to perform diazonation? I vaguely recall reading yourself and Microtek posts about it many years ago.

Yes !

Quote: Originally posted by katyushaslab

I also cannot for the life of me remember if HClO4 was strictly needed, or if a perchlorate salt worked fine.

Never tried. It should work with an excess HCl.

Quote: Originally posted by katyushaslab

Edit: Also, what are you using to "bind" your material here?

I didn't bother, I just added about 10% flour.

Quote: Originally posted by katyushaslab

I wonder if a thin layer of this material, bound with NC or similar painted onto an object such as a leaf, affixed to a metal plate could work for making artwork?

You must first find a material that can produce "art" after being subjected to a shock wave. Ideas welcome !

Herr Haber - 22-10-2021 at 09:40

Could you guys elaborate on the water balloon, the plexiglass or point me to other topics that I might have missed where you talk about that ?
You made me curious

detonography

Laboratory of Liptakov - 22-10-2021 at 11:40

Yes, ballon water works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeAEwi04PoI

[Edited on 22-10-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

pdb - 23-10-2021 at 01:39

The plexiglass assembly consists, from top to bottom, of a sheet of explosive (PETN preferable because the critical thickness is very low) with a centered detonator, then a plexiglass disk of about 1cm thickness to homogenize the shock wave, then the object to be engraved (a vegetable leaf), and finally a polished copper or brass plate.

It works, but it is more complicated than the water balloon method.

Cutting with AgN3

pdb - 26-10-2021 at 02:02

The same cutting experiment with AgN3 does not work well: the size of the crystals (much larger than the nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate crystals) and especially their high density prevent them from remaining suspended in the water + flour mixture. So it is difficult to spread the mixture on the cardboard.

Another detail: I never managed to capture a nice flame from an AgN3 explosion, whereas nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate always gives great pictures with sparks all over the path.

edit(woelen): Removed erroneous download file on request of pdb

[Edited on 13-3-23 by woelen]

Herr Haber - 26-10-2021 at 06:02

Thank you both.
Your solutions are way better than anything I have thought of so far.
The water balloon contraption is art in itselft.

Trial with (NCN3)3

pdb - 2-11-2021 at 08:36

This time I tried to form a trail of CTA (cyanuric triazide) by melting (m.p. 94°).But once liquid, the CTA soaked the cardboard, in which it diffused giving it a certain translucence, like an oil stain.

As a result, the behavior in the flame is quite strange: I put two extracts in the video. You can see that the CTA crackles, without continuity in the detonation, but with continuity in the crackling.

It is in a way halfway between nitrobenzene diazonium perchlorate which detonates in one go, and AgN3 which detonates in segments, without continuity between the successive detonations

edit(woelen): Removed erroneous download file on request of pdb

[Edited on 13-3-23 by woelen]

Bert - 4-11-2021 at 11:08

Quote: Originally posted by pdb

The same cutting experiment with AgN3 does not work well: the size of the crystals (much larger than the nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate crystals) and especially their high density prevent them from remaining suspended in the water + flour mixture. So it is difficult to spread the mixture on the cardboard

I theorize a small additional % guar gum or xanthan gum would provide a stiffer gel capable of keeping your larger/denser crystals suspended.

Prepared wallpaper paste might be better with heavy crystals than plain than flour/water

Or maybe COOK the flour/water mixture? Brinnng it to a simmer while stirring and allow to cool before adding primary? Explosive gravy...

I keep food grade xanthan and guar gums on hand. Useful for everything from making hot sauce that doesn't run off your ribs & wings to making cut stars.

[Edited on 11-4-2021 by Bert]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-11-2021 at 12:33

pdb:
Spectacular video with paper. Great work. Magic paper. A like shooting into paper from invisible laser 1000W. Or beams of death. All others important for better results said Bert... :cool:

pdb - 24-11-2021 at 14:03

Again, the nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate provides a beautiful image, captured at 240 fps. I think this is due to the recombination of the detonation products, from the raw formula C6H4ClN3O6, which lasts longer than the detonation itself (which, as a thin trail, must be quite low, maybe 2000 to 3000 m/s... however enough to travel about a meter per image). By the way, the smell of the explosion is very pleasant... well, I think so.

With inorganic azides, or fulminates, the detonation products are too simple to cause a recombination. So it is rare to capture the detonation at 240 fps, and at best you just see a white flash.

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Laboratory of Liptakov - 24-11-2021 at 15:27

Mad perchlorate. Exotic formula. Spectacular photos... :cool:

MineMan - 24-11-2021 at 16:20

That paper video was so so cool. Please do more experiments for that. It’s like a detonating fuse. There has to be a use for it.

pdb - 30-11-2021 at 02:32

This time I shot the back of the Bristol to avoid the camera being blinded by the flash of the detonation. I also put a black background screen to avoid any reflection of the light.

Too bad, the detonation was captured on 2 frames. On the first one, the detonation occurred at the half of the sensor scan. And the second one is particularly nice. However, I hope next time to capture the entire detonation on a single frame.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-12-2021 at 07:04

Incredible art work...Hat off.... :cool:

Mateo_swe - 2-6-2022 at 04:11

Wow, really cool.
I liked the different types of leaf on the metal plates, looks like the ancient fossils they find enbedded in stone.
I really have to try this some time.

Does other explosives work too if one work out how big charge to use by some trials?
The waterballon method seem very good.

simply RED - 2-6-2022 at 10:01

Really beautiful, should be published in some scientific-popular journal.

B(a)P - 11-3-2023 at 13:00

Quote: Originally posted by pdb

The meaning of brisance...

What is the composition that you have used here? It certainly doesn't look like much to do that, what mass of material did you use?

pdb - 11-3-2023 at 15:22

Nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate, 50 mg + 4 mg PIB. In my experience, it is by far the most powerful primer among the classical compounds.

pdb - 13-3-2023 at 05:51

Sorry guys, but I had to delete some recent data for some reasons. This makes the thread a bit shaky!

But the pics are back :

[Edited on 14-3-23 by pdb]

[Edited on 14-3-23 by pdb]

MineMan - 16-3-2023 at 20:35

Quote: Originally posted by pdb

Sorry guys, but I had to delete some recent data for some reasons. This makes the thread a bit shaky!

But the pics are back :

[Edited on 14-3-23 by pdb]

What is that. Is that plasticized?
[Edited on 14-3-23 by pdb]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-3-2023 at 01:34

Mad attempt.....

....But good work of course....Such small ball broken ceramic plate..?....Incredible.... :cool:

MineMan - 26-3-2023 at 11:12

How did you plastize it?

B(a)P - 26-3-2023 at 21:40

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

How did you plastize it?

Do you mean by this question, how did pdb incorporate the PIB?

Quote: Originally posted by pdb

Nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate, 50 mg + 4 mg PIB. In my experience, it is by far the most powerful primer among the classical compounds.

[Edited on 27-3-2023 by B(a)P]

pdb - 28-3-2023 at 12:06

The PIB is incorporated in the usual way: dissolved in gasoline, but without oil. The hardest part is rolling it into a ball, as it is a fairly sensitive primer (only slightly less than AgCNO). I haven't found anything better than my fingertips to do this. But I'm going to stop doing it, as the risk is too high.