Sciencemadness Discussion Board

The stigma against EM enthusiasts

Pyro_cat - 4-6-2021 at 08:36


Its just like what the heck if I was to go buy a semi automatic rifle I can talk about it to anyone. Its this model it takes these bullets shoots this far ect ect

But if I say to some people I made some nasty firecrackers with not much more then bleach and aluminum foil oh my gosh your "making bombs" !!!

I would like to brag about it, I like science and am clever enough to make a rocket or ground salute from easy to get every day stuff but there is a stigma to it.

And seriously a semi auto rifle is a much more hazardous thing then an m-80 but not how people see it.

Pyro_cat - 4-6-2021 at 08:40


What happened was I got into a chat with this girl who was s science nerd and I wanted to talk about the EM hobby but like I said above I believe there is a stigma to it so I kept my mouth shut.

scienceboi - 4-6-2021 at 18:46

This hobby is seen skeptically from all the meth labs, illegal pyrotechnics, and terrorism that happens in the world. Guns kill, but there is a strong culture of DIY and individualism. Plus legit companies sell you a fully working firearm. If you're on this form, you probably already want to do things the safest and most legit way one can.

We have to fight the battle of framing and propaganda. Imagine for a minute you synthesized something like a milligram of RDX. This is a relative safe amount, of one of the safest explosives in existence. However, if you frame it as you make explosives and thats it, people get pushed off. Why would someone make an explosive if they weren't gonna blow it up? Or they may blow up themselves on accident. Same goes for drugs. Why would you make a drug if you weren't going to use it?

So you have to battle that. People will be too afraid to enjoy it because of the media they consume and personal experience. They'll think its better to not be involved to not be harmed.

You could be assertive and it might work. Be yourself and go: "One of my hobbies is making very small amounts of explosives as safely as I can. I take every precaution that they don't go off. Since I'm safe about it, I can enjoy the little booms they make like we all enjoy when watching fireworks. I can also enjoy the chemistry of how it works and how to form it. Its a very unique hobby and I have to do a lot to be seen as an amateur scientist rather than some terrorist or malicious actor or a fool with fireworks."

DBX Labs - 4-6-2021 at 19:06

Quote: Originally posted by scienceboi  

You could be assertive and it might work. Be yourself and go: "One of my hobbies is making very small amounts of explosives as safely as I can. I take every precaution that they don't go off. Since I'm safe about it, I can enjoy the little booms they make like we all enjoy when watching fireworks. I can also enjoy the chemistry of how it works and how to form it. Its a very unique hobby and I have to do a lot to be seen as an amateur scientist rather than some terrorist or malicious actor or a fool with fireworks."


That is how I often go about it. I feel that a straightforwardness to the matter helps negate suspicion of wrongful activity.

MineMan - 4-6-2021 at 23:04

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat  

What happened was I got into a chat with this girl who was s science nerd and I wanted to talk about the EM hobby but like I said above I believe there is a stigma to it so I kept my mouth shut.


A lot of girls find it cool. It’s the way you say it. For example “ I am not very artistic when it comes to drawing and painting... if you gave me a piece of clay it would be a lump. But, my artistic side shows, I make fireworks and my fountains are more spectacular than any I have seen”

Herr Haber - 8-6-2021 at 05:34

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
It’s the way you say it.


Use words such as detonography then she'll be the one asking questions :)

Brightthermite - 9-6-2021 at 11:04

It helps if you tie the interest to real world applications. "I have a huge interest in shaped charges and what geometry works best for what materials" sounds a lot better then, "i like to detonate high explosives for the same reason i like to set things on fire" even though Im sure there is a huge portion of the membership here just to detonate them and be in awe haha

caterpillar - 9-6-2021 at 11:32

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat  

What happened was I got into a chat with this girl who was s science nerd and I wanted to talk about the EM hobby but like I said above I believe there is a stigma to it so I kept my mouth shut.


Think twice and thrice before talking about your hobby with other ones. Remember- silence is a virtue. Somebody might say some words to the police. You'll hardly be able to blink twice when then these guys come to you.

Amos - 9-6-2021 at 14:53

A lot of us can't figure out why you EM enthusiasts just want to see something blow up every time you finish a synthesis. The science itself isn't necessarily worthy of any kind of stigma, you're right, but it's hard to deny that many of the most problematic members of the amateur chem community are primarily dealing in explosives, and are usually where the negative media headlines are generated. Police would probably be more understanding with people if their labs had evidence of other, tamer kinds of chemistry, as opposed to strictly things that are outright illegal or restricted. You should diversify.

And for the record, I would judge someone I just met far more harshly for owning an assault rifle than being an EM chemist. The widespread acceptance of those in the US is really just a money-in-politics issue.

Pyro_cat - 9-6-2021 at 16:02

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
It’s the way you say it.


Use words such as detonography then she'll be the one asking questions :)


I should have thought of that !

She said she had bachelors on chem and kicked ass at math and I decided lets watch the Nile Red make superconductors video.

I know that video, the feather, that would have been a good intro into talking about EMs

Much younger then me, not really GF material but who doesn't need a pretty young lab partner to explore science ?

Pyro_cat - 9-6-2021 at 16:45

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat  

What happened was I got into a chat with this girl who was s science nerd and I wanted to talk about the EM hobby but like I said above I believe there is a stigma to it so I kept my mouth shut.


A lot of girls find it cool. It’s the way you say it. For example “ I am not very artistic when it comes to drawing and painting... if you gave me a piece of clay it would be a lump. But, my artistic side shows, I make fireworks and my fountains are more spectacular than any I have seen”


Oh heck ya. Chicks dig fireworks, at least the fun ones anyway.

2nd or 3rd date what do you want to do? A. We could sit in some lame restaurant eat some over priced food or B. I have some store bought bottle rockets and know this spot we can light them off where they make these fantastic echos.

If she is fun she is picking B and they always like it. I enjoy store bought fireworks as long as its still out and in good echo location.

But the woman that inspired this thread she knew chem better then me for sure but most likely never experimented with EMs. I felt I could not just dive into it with someone I just met.

I so wanted too, telling me she made ibuprofen I so wanted to say well I made erythritol tetranitrate and its not only a high powered EM also how was used medical vaso dilator .

Oh well.






Herr Haber - 10-6-2021 at 05:08

If you're gonna be sitting in front of a screen with a girl and want to introduce her to your world I would
a) Follow Amos advice on broadening your interests outside of EM so you can be MORE than just "a crazy guy".
b) Dump Nile Red and go straight to the Royal Society lectures on pyrotechnics and EM.

If you cant get a full evening of conversations out of these lectures... well, she's the wrong one to share your hobby with. Probably. Who knows ?

Btw, I mentioned detonography the other day. I didnt realize it was "womans art" (one of the first artists to use the technique is a woman).

Pyro_cat - 10-6-2021 at 08:57

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  

a) Follow Amos advice on broadening your interests outside of EM so you can be MORE than just "a crazy guy".


That's exactly why I chose nile reds super conductor video. It had some pyrotechnic in the syntheses and was vert interesting.

I moved om to talking about tesla coils, speed of light divided by the length of the wire gives you the frequency and how with the spark gap its adjustable. Charge discharge timing.

She told me she took all these advanced math classes. 4.0

I would love to build a kick ass Tesla coil. The one I built in the 90s every one was amazed but compared to whats on you tube now my 12 inch streamers are nothing.

MineMan - 10-6-2021 at 16:29

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat  

What happened was I got into a chat with this girl who was s science nerd and I wanted to talk about the EM hobby but like I said above I believe there is a stigma to it so I kept my mouth shut.


A lot of girls find it cool. It’s the way you say it. For example “ I am not very artistic when it comes to drawing and painting... if you gave me a piece of clay it would be a lump. But, my artistic side shows, I make fireworks and my fountains are more spectacular than any I have seen”


Oh heck ya. Chicks dig fireworks, at least the fun ones anyway.

2nd or 3rd date what do you want to do? A. We could sit in some lame restaurant eat some over priced food or B. I have some store bought bottle rockets and know this spot we can light them off where they make these fantastic echos.

If she is fun she is picking B and they always like it. I enjoy store bought fireworks as long as its still out and in good echo location.

But the woman that inspired this thread she knew chem better then me for sure but most likely never experimented with EMs. I felt I could not just dive into it with someone I just met.

I so wanted too, telling me she made ibuprofen I so wanted to say well I made erythritol tetranitrate and its not only a high powered EM also how was used medical vaso dilator .

Oh well.








Yah. I had a second date of setting off fireworks. Went well. Wasn’t planned, I needed to do it and asked if she wanted to tag along.

You sure she was too young for a GF? Can’t let the rare ones get away due to a trope

symboom - 10-6-2021 at 17:23

Fireworks have less of a stigma than the word explosives. Or it's substitute energetic materials.

Just as drug abuse was changed to drug use disorder / substance addiction. Sometimes it helps to change the wording to change the preception.

[Edited on 11-6-2021 by symboom]

MineMan - 11-6-2021 at 02:09

Quote: Originally posted by symboom  
Fireworks have less of a stigma than the word explosives. Or it's substitute energetic materials.

Just as drug abuse was changed to drug use disorder / substance addiction. Sometimes it helps to change the wording to change the preception.

[Edited on 11-6-2021 by symboom]


These were very very unique “fireworks”

Gargamel - 26-6-2021 at 13:24

Where I live it is the general perception among hobby chemists that EM and pyro enthusiasts
are doing great damage to the community, by provoking authorities to take action.
Career-minded police officers and public prosecutors present finds as big cases, profiling themselves as successful terrorist hunters and guardians of public safety.
And some people really did their best to feed them, posting 50Kg blasts on YT ect. (while at the same time often showing now interest in chemistry at all, chemistry is just a means to an end).

The thing is, that authorities have in fact problems to distinguish between actual chemistry enthusiasts and bombers.
That is also one reason for the new EU laws. They cannot distinguish - so doing ANY chemistry in private is highly suspicious.
Because in the past shaking down people often brought big headlines at the beginning but silent acquittals or low sentences in the end, they are now given tools like the ban on sulfuric acid.

From a certain point of view you may argue that it was the EM enthusiasts who ruined amateur chemistry in Europe.
Any European chemistry forum on the internet will kick you out in minutes when you make even vague hints about this.

In fact, apart from the very few pyro related pages, SM is the last refuge for EM amateurs.

caterpillar - 27-6-2021 at 01:01

Rule number one: Do Not Get Caught!

Linus1208 - 21-11-2021 at 02:57

This reminds me of someone sending an article of someone having blown himself up building a "firecracker" right before new years eve.
What he was doing was definetely not building a firecracker. He was probably working at least a few 100 grams of some peroxide explosive (or something as sensitive as that), which won't make a firecracker.
I don't synthesize half a kilo of ATP, I don't synthesize peroxide explosives at all, but who would know, how would I explain to someone who doesn't know anything about EM.

karolus28 - 21-11-2021 at 08:27

Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
"firecracker"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHKWMP5doDw yeah a firecracker

SWIM - 21-11-2021 at 12:11

Quote: Originally posted by Amos  

And for the record, I would judge someone I just met far more harshly for owning an assault rifle than being an EM chemist. The widespread acceptance of those in the US is really just a money-in-politics issue.


Many people feel this way.
That's why I prefer .30-06 caliber.
It's too powerful to be considered an assault rifle.

Firearms vs EM is a poor comparison as HE is kinda like a firearm, but fireworks are more like an air rifle: You can still get killed, but it's a whole different level of risk.

macckone - 21-11-2021 at 20:59

Quote: Originally posted by karolus28  
Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
"firecracker"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHKWMP5doDw yeah a firecracker


Interesting video.
That is more than a firecracker but given a relatively unconfined explosion, the damage is still pretty substantial.

B(a)P - 22-11-2021 at 01:09

Quote: Originally posted by karolus28  
Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
"firecracker"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHKWMP5doDw yeah a firecracker


Yikes, 300 g of TATP, the pucker factor must have been off the charts filling that plastic drink bottle.....

Sulaiman - 22-11-2021 at 03:19

I was upset with the harm to the tree!

Metallophile - 22-11-2021 at 08:24

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
I was upset with the harm to the tree!


It didn't do too much damage to the tree, but it could easily have blown his arm off or killed him. What a dumbass!

acidgas - 7-1-2022 at 01:34

The laws are good to review.


https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/report/publication-feder...

https://youtu.be/GnmukLSs2rQ

macckone - 8-1-2022 at 00:07

acidgas,

Those laws are for the USA.
The TATP video is clearly not in the USA.
The membership here is from a multitude of countries.

a couple of simple rules makes it simple in the USA
1) storing explosives in the USA has a lot of regulations
2) transporting explosives requires a license and has even more regulations
3) it requires a license to sell explosives but we are amateurs, we don't sell explosives
4) it is legal at the federal level to make small quantities of explosives provided they are used immediately, not transported and not used for commercial purposes other than research.
5) it is illegal to put explosives into a 'destructive device'. Fireworks, firecrackers, test fixtures are not destructive devices, a pvc pipe filled with explosives is a destructive devices.

Rule 4 is what allows tannerite kits to be sold
Rule 4 applies to all explosives but some states, NY and Maryland for example have additional rules that make #4 less clear.