Sciencemadness Discussion Board - PLS GUIDE THIS AMATEUR CHEMIST

PLS GUIDE THIS AMATEUR CHEMIST

GlitchChemist - 15-3-2021 at 02:10

So I just joined this forum and was amazed by the stuff going on. Seriously this is the best (Mad Science) forum and suits me well.

I already have some chemicals so please tell me some reactions that can be done

Sodium chloride
Sodium thiosulfate
Sodium hypochlorite
Sodium bicarbonate
Calcium hypochlorite
Calcium carbonate
Hydrogen peroxide
Potassium permanganate
Povidone -iodine solution
Ethanol
Urea
Acetic acid
Ascorbic acid
Stable source of Hydrogen

I also have lots of high-nitrogen fertilizer, if possible pls tell me a way to extract Ammonium nitrate/ Potassium nitrate from it.

[Edited on 15-3-2021 by GlitchChemist]

j_sum1 - 15-3-2021 at 02:47

Well, I could be snarky and suggest you don't post a thread weth all caps. That would help.

But seriously, it comes down more to what you are interested in. Reading your list of chems nothing in particular jumps out st me. But maybe I am just tired.

I find the oxidation states of manganese fascinating. With some sugar and a strong base you can do the chemical chameleon demo. That is fun.

You have just about enough to make hydrazine sulfate by the Hoffman Rearrangement. But after making it, I am not dure what you would do with it.

You don't have strong acids. That limits you a bit. Nor fo you mention what equipment you have.

Here are some good ideas that have proved interesting for those getting started:
Electrolysis. Lots of interesting projects possible invludinv making your own reagents.
Steam distillations and extractions. You don't need much in the way of chemicals but you do need equipment.
Crystal growing. And while you are at it, learn the art of purification by recrystallulisation.
Thermites. You will need aluminium powder and maybe some ocides from the hardware store or pottery supply.
Element collecting. An endless source if projects. The fun starts when you decide to isolate an element from a readily available product rather than buy samples.
Dissecting a zinc-carbon battery and usolating and purifying the contents.
Copper chemistry. The goal is to produce a range of different copper salts. Starting with copper wire or copper sulfate. Citrates, tartrates, acetates and a whole bunch of things are possible using over the counter products. You will need some acids though.
Producing a range if coloured salts. This is currently a really popular enterprise. (vano, Lion850). Some small additions of starting reagents to your inventory will get you started.
There are a few things to be done with povidine iodine. There is a recipe for an iodine clock reaction. After you have mixed up two solutions you have a remarkable tool for investigating reaction rates: effects of temperature and concentration. Do this right and you not just playing: you are doind true science in experimenting and investigating phenomena.
Povidine plus some starch makes a redox indicator. With some vitamin C tablets you have the ability to titrate your bleach and other oxidants to find their concentration.

There sre a couple of ideas anyway.
(Edit: pls excuse multiple phone-typing errors.)

[Edited on 15-3-2021 by j_sum1]

Fyndium - 15-3-2021 at 03:26

Fertilizer purification - from start it depends what it contains. If it happens to be of good feed, you can just wash off the nitrate from the solids and crystallize and dry it. If it's not, then it can get very complicated.

For me in need of a nitrate for a reaction for example, I get bag of CAN based fertilizer because it's sold at the lowest price, dissolve in hot water, filter, add potassium chloride and crystallize out KNO3. If you have determined how much AN it contains, it's easy to calculate the required amount, but if not and it's cheap and you need it fast & not be so worried about yield, you can just add some KCl and crystallize out KNO3. This is, because KNO3 has high sol in hot but low (13g/100mL) sol in 0C water so majority can be extracted, leaving impurities in solution. Sometimes a little trickery is needed, for example I had to dissolve the stuff in a bit larger volume and cool it to extract some other stuff that crashed out first, and recrystallize it a couple of times to extract pure KNO3.

There are also straight KNO3 based fertilizers sold for garden, they come with bigger price but one can directly filter and recrystallize it a couple of times to extract straight KNO3 from it. Sometimes they contain dyes and other stuff, but boiling it with activated carbon yields optically white KNO3.

[Edited on 15-3-2021 by Fyndium]

itsallgoodjames - 15-3-2021 at 07:40

Quote: Originally posted by GlitchChemist

So I just joined this forum and was amazed by the stuff going on. Seriously this is the best (Mad Science) forum and suits me well.

I already have some chemicals so please tell me some reactions that can be done

Sodium chloride
Sodium thiosulfate
Sodium hypochlorite
Sodium bicarbonate
Calcium hypochlorite
Calcium carbonate
Hydrogen peroxide
Potassium permanganate
Povidone -iodine solution
Ethanol
Urea
Acetic acid
Ascorbic acid
Stable source of Hydrogen

I also have lots of high-nitrogen fertilizer, if possible pls tell me a way to extract Ammonium nitrate/ Potassium nitrate from it.

[Edited on 15-3-2021 by GlitchChemist]

What specific fertilizer is it? (the numbers will bo, but the actual compound in it would be good to know)

edit - Also, get some NaOH from the hardware store in the form of draino or store brand lye. It opens up a bunch of possibilities.

[Edited on 15-3-2021 by itsallgoodjames]

B(a)P - 15-3-2021 at 12:13

As j_sum1 suggests getting one or more strong acids will open up many more possibilities.
I am not sure where you are located, but HCl is generally one of the easiest strong acids to obtain.
NaOH would also be a good idea as suggested by itsallgoodjames.
With the addition of those two reagents to your collection you could extract elemental iodine from providone.

itsallgoodjames - 15-3-2021 at 17:37

you could also probably make ammonia from the fertilizer, depending on what it's made of.

What concentration is the acetic acid? If it's concentrated, you could make some acetate esters.

As jsum said, copper chem is also pretty good to start off with. You can probably find copper sulfate at your local garden center. With the previously mentioned ammonia, you can make tetraamminecopper(ii) sulfate, which is a deep blue color. Or you could make copper aspirinate from copper sulfate, sodium bicarbonate and aspirin.

I haven't done it, but making phenol from aspirin doesn't seem too difficult.

There's some reagents you just need to really be able to do much in chemistry. Some of the absolute necessities that you really should get are the following:
HCl, NaOH, Ammonia solution, some sort of nitrate (the fertilizer might already be, but you haven't said what the fertilizer is), H2SO4 if it's available where you are. (DO NOT ATTEAMPT TO MAKE H2SO4 FROM ELEMENTAL SULFUR IF YOU CAN"T BUY IT), isopropanol, acetone

draculic acid69 - 15-3-2021 at 18:38

I agree with the ppl above copper chemistry is a good place to start.copper sulfate is a good learning/starting point.

ChemTalk - 16-3-2021 at 18:39

You can do the decomposition of hydrogen peroxide experiment that you see here:
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChemTalk

I concur with the others, about getting copper sulfate for some copper chemistry, along with some NaOH and HCl. And some steel wool for various experiments with Iron. You can probably get all of this in one place.

draculic acid69 - 16-3-2021 at 21:13

I'd also suggest getting some epson salts, high potassium salt substitute,al foil,iron nails and some copper wire to add to your list of "chemicals".
This will allow much wider experimental ability.

High potassium salt substitute is 50/50 potassium/sodium chloride for ppl who still want salt but have problems with too much sodium.its in most supermarkets.

draculic acid69 - 16-3-2021 at 21:22

A fun little easy starting experiment U could do is take a few ml of the povidone iodine solution in a cup and a few drops of another chemical and see what happens.see if U can get it turn clear or to change colour or precipitate something.

[Edited on 17-3-2021 by draculic acid69]

j_sum1 - 16-3-2021 at 21:27

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69

High potassium salt substitute is 50/50 potassium/sodium chloride for ppl who still want salt but have problems with too much sodium.its in most supermarkets.

In the US there is a salt substitute that is (I believe) ~100% KCl. Aus has the 50:50 mix.

Maurice-VD-3 - 17-3-2021 at 04:56

Another idea :
You could also put 1 or 2 mL of your providone-iodine solution in a little beaker. Add some water to dilute it a bit. This makes a dark brown solution. Then you dissolve a spatula or two of sodium thiosulfate in a beaker filled with water. And you add little by little this thiosulfate solution into your iodine solution, while stirring with a glass rod or a spoon. Suddenly the solution will be discolored. Would do the same with ascorbic acid instead of sodium thiosulfate.

To extract potassium nitrate. You heat 50 or 100 mL water up to boiling point. Now you add a spatula of your fertilizer and wait its dissolution. When it is dissolved try to add more, and more. When you cannot dissolve more fertilizer, the solution is saturated. You decant it in another beaker, let it cool down. When cold, you will get plenty of small white crystals, made of potassium nitrate. If not, it means that your fertilizer does not contain any potassium nitrate. In this case you should start again, and add a saturated solution of potassium chloride or potassium sulfate in the hot saturated solution of fertilizer. This time you should obtain plenty of potassium nitrate crystals when cold. Don't use potassium permanganate, which is too much colored, and will react with the nitrogen compounds of the fertilizer.

digga - 17-3-2021 at 13:02

Acetic acid and calcium carbonate yields calcium acetate.
Calcium acetate can be pyrolyzed to acetone.
Acetone and sodium hypochlorite make chloroform.

Simple ingredients make wonderful things.

draculic acid69 - 18-3-2021 at 01:09

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69

High potassium salt substitute is 50/50 potassium/sodium chloride for ppl who still want salt but have problems with too much sodium.its in most supermarkets.

In the US there is a salt substitute that is (I believe) ~100% KCl. Aus has the 50:50 mix.

I wonder why we don't also get the straight 100%kcl.
Also fun fact: kcl is one of the things they inject you with
when they execute you in the us.of a. Apparently it kills you before
the other drugs do.

GlitchChemist - 18-3-2021 at 03:06

Hey its fun to be hearing some ideas from you guys.
The real problem is that I live in Srilanka which is a f'd up country :mad:

with all sorts of stupid regulations. They don't even sell muriatic acid in hardware stores. Once I tried ordering HCl from ebay and trust me , it didn't get past the airport customs.

@itsallgoodjames
The fertilizer I was talking about is the 20:20:20 kind but I can't find out the chemical composition . It is hygroscopic , blue in colour and smells bad. Pls help me with this.

I do have some "Sodium free salt" / KCl but its kinda expensive here.
I tried purifying some drain cleaner and got some crude NaOH with Al(OH)3 impurities.

I had nitric acid but however used all of it for nitrocellulose(I play with it everyday

).
I also want to know the reagents that I could possibly make out of electrolysis from the stuff I have right now.

[Edited on 18-3-2021 by GlitchChemist]

draculic acid69 - 18-3-2021 at 04:29

Electrolysis of salt water will give H2+clorine gas so U could make some muriatic acid

itsallgoodjames - 18-3-2021 at 04:46

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69

Electrolysis of salt water will give H2+clorine gas so U could make some muriatic acid

How do you suppose that they react the H2 and Cl2? By burning them together?

njl - 18-3-2021 at 05:45

Obviously... classic beginner reaction.

itsallgoodjames - 18-3-2021 at 06:13

Yeah, making HCl from H2 and Cl2 isn't a remotely safe of a thing to do for someone just starting out in chem. That's why there's so many posts in technochem about "the most dangerous and inefficient way to make HCl possible". It's like making sulfuric acid from S8. If you are just starting out, it's not safe, and once you have enough experience for it to be at least reasonably safe, you probably already have a supply of the chemical, rendering making it pointless.

B(a)P - 18-3-2021 at 12:08

Quote: Originally posted by GlitchChemist

The fertilizer I was talking about is the 20:20:20 kind but I can't find out the chemical composition . It is hygroscopic , blue in colour and smells bad. Pls help me with this.

The blue colour is likely chelated copper.
The remainder will be a mix of phosphates and nitrates. You may be able to crystallise out potassium nitrate then purify it with a few recrystallisations. It will be tricky to separate the remainder. If you can get acetone you could potentially extract some ammonium nitrate from the remainder.

Quote: Originally posted by GlitchChemist

I also want to know the reagents that I could possibly make out of electrolysis from the stuff I have right now.

[Edited on 18-3-2021 by GlitchChemist]

You could make chlorate from you sodium chloride and or sodium hypochlorite via electrolysis.

j_sum1 - 18-3-2021 at 14:55

If it was me, I would be trying to get hold of a decent amount of copper sulfate and making sulfuric acid by electrolysis. Lead sheet is asuitable anode.
It is a pain, and it takes time, but it would be worth it. And it would also open up teh possibility of making yor own HCl and HNO3.

I would probably be on the hunt for chemicals from a pool shop. Sodium bisulfate is an adequate substitute for strong minieral acids in many applications. And theer are often other useful chemicals available too. Pool shops might be few and far between in Sri Lanka. But it would be worth a try.

draculic acid69 - 18-3-2021 at 17:51

Epson salts and electrolysis can also make sulfuric acid

itsallgoodjames - 18-3-2021 at 19:01

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69

Epson salts and electrolysis can also make sulfuric acid

No it can't. The Mg will react with the formed sulfuric acid, making it pointless

j_sum1 - 18-3-2021 at 19:28

Quote: Originally posted by itsallgoodjames

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69

Epson salts and electrolysis can also make sulfuric acid

No it can't. The Mg will react with the formed sulfuric acid, making it pointless

It would be Mg(OH)2, but the same principle applies.

The reason copper works is that you get formation of solid Cu at the cathode which removes the copper from the solution phase. Likewise, at the anode, you get OH- from dissociated water being oxidised to O2 which is removed from solution as bubbles. Effectively you have an accumulation of H+ ions arising from the redox reaction and the SO4(2-) ions staying in situ. That is, dilute sulfuric acid.

Electrolsis is aggressive on anode materials which need to be conductive materials. You get cavitation and erosion as a result of oxygen nucleation. You also get reactions of your electrode material for most metals. Graphite is a possible anode material but it tends to disintegrate pretty quickly creating a mess that needs to be filtered off.
Lead is good because it forms a PbO2 surface coating that conducts satisfactorially and prevents too much of the remaining lead from being attacked. It is still wise to keep the current density low.

When I have done this, I have used a regulated power supply and set the current so that a batch is completed in 24 hours. Typically I have started with a copper sulfate solutiuon 50% of saturated. But that was in the days before I had a magnetic stirrer. In my experience I have always found the last bit of copper sulfate a PITA to dissolve. In my calculation I allow for 10% inefficiency in the electrolysis and have found that satisfactory. You can tell when it is done when there is no discernible blue in the solution.

The next step is to boil the acid down to the required concentration. You lose a lot of hard-won acid if you try to take it all the way to 90% or higher. At around 70% you get considerable fuming and that is where I have tended to stop.

draculic acid69 - 19-3-2021 at 07:19

Quote: Originally posted by itsallgoodjames

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69

Epson salts and electrolysis can also make sulfuric acid

No it can't. The Mg will react with the formed sulfuric acid, making it pointless

U need to use a small terracotta pot as a diaphragm but it works.watch the video:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6BThiJpbBJQ

GlitchChemist - 21-3-2021 at 04:34

So I thought of making some HCl by membrane electrolysis of NaCl. Thinking of using a cotton membrane. I do have a good power supply which can make the process faster. Guys any ideas on this? This is probably the only possible way that I can produce HCl.

charley1957 - 23-3-2021 at 12:33

I just looked up pool suppliers in Sri Lanka. First one to come up was Global Chemicals Pvt Ltd. They claim to work directly with pool owners, and they show to have HCl, TCCA, granular chlorine and other chemicals. If they won't sell to you because you don't have a pool, then see if you can use a pool owner as a go-between. Good luck!

njl - 23-3-2021 at 12:43

GlitchChemist the NaOH produced can degrade cotton.