Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Mixes Fast enough for shape charges

Mixes Fast enough for shape charges

Brightthermite - 10-12-2020 at 20:16

Ive been doing some test with small shape charges, under 10 grams using ETN. I have a light bulb I would like to try as a cone but i really dont have the means to produce enough ETN for the charge.

Can anyone point me in the right direction with something potentially AN or AP based? I have some chlorates as well.

Thanks!

B(a)P - 10-12-2020 at 20:22

Quote: Originally posted by Brightthermite

Ive been doing some test with small shape charges, under 10 grams using ETN. I have a light bulb I would like to try as a cone but i really dont have the means to produce enough ETN for the charge.

Can anyone point me in the right direction with something potentially AN or AP based? I have some chlorates as well.

Thanks!

What is your limitation with regard to ETN production?

Brightthermite - 11-12-2020 at 11:59

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Quote: Originally posted by Brightthermite

What is your limitation with regard to ETN production?

At this moment time and acid.

itsallgoodjames - 11-12-2020 at 12:04

Anything related to AP seems like a bad idea, especially in larger amounts. If you have access to the affor-mentioned ammonium nitrate, it shouldn't be too hard to make a bit of HNO3

Brightthermite - 11-12-2020 at 12:16

Quote: Originally posted by itsallgoodjames

Anything related to AP seems like a bad idea, especially in larger amounts. If you have access to the affor-mentioned ammonium nitrate, it shouldn't be too hard to make a bit of HNO3

Should have been more specific, I mean ammonium perchlorate by AP.

B(a)P - 11-12-2020 at 12:55

Sounds like you have all you need for TACP?

Brightthermite - 11-12-2020 at 20:35

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Sounds like you have all you need for TACP?

Out of ammonium hydroxide, any tips to prepare some?

B(a)P - 11-12-2020 at 23:11

Urea or any ammonia salt with sodium hydroxide will release ammonia, then bubble that through dH2O. Nurdrage has a good video on it https://youtu.be/0-jJ5QF-EVE

Laboratory of Liptakov - 12-12-2020 at 13:09

ETN is good for detonator filling. But for a lot applications is too much strong, unnecessarily expensive. Shaped charges works pretty good with VoD 6 - 7 Km /s. Respectively is it enough for amateur examination. Even 5 Km is enough sometimes. If you have diethylene glycol you can try this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5665935A/en

Brightthermite - 12-12-2020 at 17:26

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

ETN is good for detonator filling. But for a lot applications is too much strong, unnecessarily expensive. Shaped charges works pretty good with VoD 6 - 7 Km /s. Respectively is it enough for amateur examination. Even 5 Km is enough sometimes. If you have diethylene glycol you can try this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5665935A/en

I read through the patent and believe I will try the following:
Diethylene Glycol 74%Water 11%Calcium Nitrate 12%Guar Gum 2%Glacial Acetic Acid 1%______________________________________

Is there any you recommend or have experience with?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-12-2020 at 12:00

Sodium perchlorate 75 Diethylene glycol 25 Water 10, by parts of weight. Works sure.

Nitrosio - 13-12-2020 at 14:17

3NH4ClO4 + 3NaNO3 + 10CH3NO2
28.94% / 20.94% / 50.12%

NH4ClO4 + NaNO3 + C2H4(OH)2
44.41% / 32.13% / 23.46%

[Edited on 14-12-2020 by Nitrosio]

B(a)P - 13-12-2020 at 14:27

Quote: Originally posted by Brightthermite

Which chlorate/perchlorate do you intend to use? I see they say that ammonium chlorate can be used, which I think would be best avoided with this mix. Please report back with how this performs.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-12-2020 at 14:57

Read the claims especially. Thither is base of the invent. In description are different mixtures, which not works. Only on protect and cover of main claims. The invent is NaClO4 + DEG + H2O.

Brightthermite - 14-12-2020 at 11:17

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Quote: Originally posted by Brightthermite

Which chlorate/perchlorate do you intend to use? I see they say that ammonium chlorate can be used, which I think would be best avoided with this mix. Please report back with how this performs.

I jumped the gun and chose this mix before actually coming home from school and realizing I have barley any of the required chemicals haha. I went with a 15 gram mix of 25 Ethylene glycol (no di, sourced from antifreeze), 75 KClO4, and 10 parts water. The mix never fully cured, it only set up to a paste, Im assuming because of the glycol used. Performance wasn't too good, there was no residue left over but the blast seemed no more powerful than my caps themselves. No damage to the witness plate at all.

My I ask why you say ammonium perchlorate should be avoided?

[Edited on 14-12-2020 by Brightthermite]

[Edited on 14-12-2020 by Brightthermite]

B(a)P - 14-12-2020 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by Brightthermite

My I ask why you say ammonium perchlorate should be avoided?

[Edited on 14-12-2020 by Brightthermite]

I said ammonium chlorate is to be avoided, not perchlorate.
It is unstable enough as it is without adding it to a mixture fuels and oxidisers. I was surprised to see it in the list of suggested chlorates for this composition. I doubt it would persist in such a mix without spontaneously decomposing explosively or otherwise.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-12-2020 at 12:41

Um ... it won't be easy. Use sulfuric acid and nitric acid and water for nitration ..... OK, thank you for the advice ...! ... Day 2: When I came home from school, I used formic acid obtained from an anthill for nitration. And hydrochloric acid. And some water, too. Nitration failed. Maybe I ground a too few ants into hydrochloric acid. There were also some needles from the anthill. I think the nitration not worked because I added a too much water there .... :cool:

Brightthermite - 14-12-2020 at 15:05

NH4ClO4 + NaNO3 + C2H4(OH)2
44.41% / 32.13% / 23.46%

Replacing sodium nitrate with potassium nitrate, I tried this mix as well as ammonium perchlorate and ethylene glycol in 75/25. Both SOUNDED like they performed better than the KClO4 mix I tired. My witness place is too thick to show good results without a penetrator. Ill test the mixes again tomorrow with a thinner plate.

Nitrosio - 14-12-2020 at 18:42

NH4ClO4 + KNO3 + C2H6O2 = KCl + 2CO2 + 5H2O + N2
41.86% / 36.02% / 22.12%

5NH4ClO4 + 2C2H6O2 = 4CO2 + 16H2O + 2.5N2 + 2.5Cl2
82.55% / 17.45%

Brightthermite - 15-12-2020 at 12:37

NH4ClO4 + KNO3 + C2H6O2 = KCl + 2CO2 + 5H2O + N2
41.86% / 36.02% / 22.12%

5NH4ClO4 + 2C2H6O2 = 4CO2 + 16H2O + 2.5N2 + 2.5Cl2
82.55% / 17.45%

Both mixes were tested on a much thinner plate and the results are disappointing still. The AP/Glycol only mix did not seem to fully detonate and left lots of residue.

The following was with 10 gram charges the hole is 10 grams ETN. Cap used is 250mg of ETN with 700mg CHP.

I believe Im going to abandon these mixes until I have some Diethylene glycol and sodium perchlorate, even so in the patent it took one pound to punch a hole in 3/4 inch plate. Maybe some kind of PLX would do the trick.

TACP

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-12-2020 at 03:01

Every success and also failure moves us forward. In energetic materials, this means that the long journey is basically the goal of the whole endeavor. I see you have enough NH4ClO4. Respectively TACP. Maybe it's time to try Liptex. This is essentially a plasticized TACP.
So more precisely TACP 80% ... NH4ClO4 8% .... Binder 8 - 12%. How to make a quality plastic binder is here. It's the most watched video on LL channel ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euVUa7C5rAM&t=221s
And if you want more powerful sharp Liptex, you can add any ETN ratio. For example ETN 30% ... NH4ClO4 5% ....TACP 53%...binder 12%.

And if you have the option of pressing, you can use 4% of this binder only. The composition is 96 TACP 4 binder. After compression with a pressure of 50 - 100 Kg / cm3, a very compact mass with a density of up to 1.9 g / cm3 is formed. This material can be worked with a knife. Cutting a small pieces. And even drill. By hand, without an electric drill of course. When working, it behaves like a softer plastic. The brisance of such a mass is comparable to TNT.

[Edited on 17-12-2020 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Brightthermite - 18-12-2020 at 15:54

Trying a mix of ETN and NC as another potential option for pourable explosives. Using double base smokeless powered, acetone and ETN I made a thick gel in a 3/1 NC/ETN.

Already some potential downsides-it took a lot of acetone to form a 5 gram slurry. It also increased the volume dramatically so this leads me to believe it is not at max density. The volume increase could be do to air being stirred into the mix, and since the mix is so thick not much air was allowed to escape even with lots of agitation.

Anyways ill report the results.

Brightthermite - 1-4-2021 at 16:52

Used NaClO4,DEG, and H20 and a bit of guar gum. I used a cardboard tube of a diameter of 1 inch and about 5 inches long. I tired two different charges and got a partial detonation both times. Any advice? My guess is the diameter is too small, wondering if anyone had any exact information to go off of.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-4-2021 at 02:16

The initiating mightiness is very important. For this water gel. Require the casting 1g ETN. Or high pressed 1g ETN. Or 1.5 - 2g CHP high pressed.

[Edited on 2-4-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

papaya - 2-4-2021 at 17:21

Brighttermite, it's surprizing to me to see just as little damage on your test target from 10g of ETN (not having experience with etn, but knowing that it is powerful though) as on the photo. I've experimented a little bit with different cheddites (sodium chlorate based) and I can assure that 12g of the best mixtures I explored do equal or more damage on the same type of target! Just look at this one as an example https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/1aef96d3-abdf-4f6a-8123-...

papaya - 2-4-2021 at 17:30

Target metal thickness is 2.5mm btw., also mixture is hand pressed slightly to 1.35 density and contained in a really thick walled plastic tube (2-3mm polypropylene tubing). Saying that chlorate cheddites are weak is a misconception as you can see, originating mostly from the experience people have with 90/10 kerosene mixture... that one NEVER detonates properly (for me) and looks like a gunpowder, leading to the illusion of "weak" explosives I hear many times here and even read in some books! But this is not cheddites topic.

[Edited on 3-4-2021 by papaya]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-4-2021 at 22:39

NaClO3 has OB + 45.55. Vanilline - 178,8. At ratio 80/20 is OB + 0,680 on CO2. At ratio 79/21 = OB - 1,564. Maybe try this ratio without oil.
And use water. I estimate 1 - 6%. For partially mixing both compounds on molecular level. Because results on metal target 2,5mm are incredible good. By video.

papaya - 2-4-2021 at 23:28

Dear liptakov, I cannot vouch for the use of water instaed of oil since it was never tested, however I can say that some liquid phase must be present in these mixtures not only for safety reasons but also that liquid phase helpes the transition of shockwave and also improves the density/makes the mix a little sticky, without it only deflagrations! Use no more than 3% of oil (even if recalculated for other OB0% ratio) since from my experience 6% oil also deflagrated (based on 1 test with a different better than vaniline fuel). The vanilline mixture in video is already oxygen ballanced, also you can see all the other holes on that target made by different chlorate mixtures (not discussing here) and there are even bigger holes, all without any nitroaromatics and very cheap! All of then contain no more than 2.5% oil. I presented vanilline here also because it is non sensitive- the dry 80/20 mixture dosent go off under heavy hammer blows, its also impossible to ignite! I think possibly due to very low melting point of vanilline that takes some heat. Also not all vanilline IS real vanilline - in most cases they trade a sugar powder with some vanilla flavour - dont try it maybe dangerous. Fortunately I found a good way to determinieren ne pure vanilline - pour some powder on the spoon and heat from below with lighter. Pure vanilline will eventiually evap orate leaving no residue at all, while sugar mixed leaves a lot of car bon reside. Also with all these chlorate mixes there are some tendencies that I want to share : critical diameter use 25mm or more, 20mm is already unrelyable; use at least 600mg initiator, sodium chlorate is preferred since potassium one was mixed results, use thick walled plastick tubing for the charge, separately grind ingrediets (important!) with coffee grinder I think mine were 100 microns at least (barely visible grains), do not add catalysts like iron oxide erc - totally useless..

papaya - 2-4-2021 at 23:49

Also I calculated OB of NaCLO3 =~+45.1%; not sure if I was right, but difference is minor anyway.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-4-2021 at 00:28

It is great research in frame Cheddite type compositions. Using vanilline / oil + NaClO3 is maybe a new invention. According a huge holes in metal plate. Maybe also a small ammount of oil is important. Because exist a lot mixtures, which give much better result, if is used 2 or more differents fuels... :cool:

papaya - 3-4-2021 at 00:57

Thanks for good words liptakov, only the hole shown here explicitly belongs to vanilline mixture (well theres also one but barely visible in video, it was partial failure anyway), other bigger hole and one "deep" hole are actually different - hexamine based, triple component fuels... unfortunately oxygen ballanced mixtures with just double hexamine+oil are weaker than the same hexamine+oil OB positive mixes - weird thing here! For example 10g KClO3 + 0.7g hexamin +0.3g oil is better than with 1g hexamine which is better than 1.4 g hexamine (perfect OB). I found a way overcome this by mixing in third fuel which actually did the thing and produced that big hole! Also it appears to be storage stable - not changed properties in one week. But the preparation is a little complicated, not suitable for this topic, I may share in other threads if it gets interest.. Vanilline is good since it's difficult to make mistakes here as long as you get pure vanilline(but it seems to require good confinement). Another promising fuel was polystyrene powder with oil (oil is always 2.5% btw) but I never found a good way how to powderize PS plastic, you can research into it if interested.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-4-2021 at 06:43

Preparation polystyrene in any powder mixture is pretty easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSx8EGMIfcA&t=1s
Require it only diluter for styrofoam described in video. And evaporation. Arises relatively homogenous mixture with any powder material.
Small grain, coated styrene film. In video is styrofoam used a like binder and fuel 2 in 1. Final materal is hard, no plastic. Or it can be hard grain mixture. According ratios of fuels and final compacticity.
Yes, some mixtures gives better properties with positive OB. Even CHP is positive with OB + 2,44. For best power. (TACP 88, hexamine 6, NH4ClO4 6)
Theory is important. But last word has attempt... :cool:

papaya - 3-4-2021 at 10:09

I cannot watch the video without having youtube account, LL, but I got the Idea behind - evaporate PS solution soaked oxidizer - nice way, must be working! But still If there's a way to powderise ANY polymer without cryogenic temperatures I would like to know how.
Also take a look at my PS attempts here - target thickness is forgotten now but it is thinner than 2.5mm one.
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/8ce6e80b-d9e5-4e34-a552-...
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/ac5e8950-a1ea-4e0e-89b2-...
They still worked and I believe that VERY(!) crude PS powder was to blame for less than the full power output .
P.S. If any of moderators finds it acceptable he can move this talk to a more appropriate thread.

Brightthermite - 3-4-2021 at 10:53

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

The initiating mightiness is very important. For this water gel. Require the casting 1g ETN. Or high pressed 1g ETN. Or 1.5 - 2g CHP high pressed.

[Edited on 2-4-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

This could be the problem then, I used 1 gram ETN in some plastic wrap. No confinement at all.

Brightthermite - 3-4-2021 at 10:59

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Brighttermite, it's surprizing to me to see just as little damage on your test target from 10g of ETN (not having experience with etn, but knowing that it is powerful though) as on the photo. I've experimented a little bit with different cheddites (sodium chlorate based) and I can assure that 12g of the best mixtures I explored do equal or more damage on the same type of target! Just look at this one as an example https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/1aef96d3-abdf-4f6a-8123-...

The 10 grams was unconfined in a paper tube. I posted here http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=64582 and showed the same tube with a 5 gram melt cast charge. The difference density makes is night and day and I find it so interesting!

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of the cheddites you have been using?

papaya - 3-4-2021 at 11:30

Brightermite, what do you mean, the composition? Look the first vanilline video, did you see it? composition is in the titles . Another and maybe the most powerful mixture I developed stands for: 10g of NaCLO3 + 1.5g FUEL + 0.3g of oil; where FUEL stands for hexamine/rosin 2:1 by weight composite. But FUEL needs a preparation procedure where powderized hexamine is cooked with rosin at 180°C temperatures for about an hour or two - a material is obtained that is higher melting than ordinary rosin, possibly due to some reaction, then this material is reduced tk the dust and mixed with chlorate. I will upload one test of it soon, as you can see it is more complicated procedure but most powerful!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-4-2021 at 11:31

papaya.....Diluter formula for styrofoam is Toluene 30% Acetone 20% Ethyl Acetate 20% Butane 1 ol 15% Iso butanol 15%. Is it commerce diluter for nitrocellulose. In some country.
I saw videos. For 11g only, are results good. But more interest are mixtures with NaClO3.

papaya - 3-4-2021 at 12:43

Videos uploaded on demand

I hope this will make some good evening show for some of you, enjoy! (on the serious side I think this mix can serve also as a good cheap booster composition for other things)

https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/38e113d0-de03-49d1-aefd-...

https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/fb592d80-f9f9-410b-a457-...

https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/d047db82-9f79-4398-a5b4-...

Sorry you have to figure out which hole was the actual hole made by the charges in every case cannot - reedit this moment.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-4-2021 at 22:04

Last video with one huge hole looks incredible good. Only 11,8 g of mixture? The profile 2,4 mm is a like after 10g ETN. Almost. Muhaha.
VoD about 5000m/s. Maybe 6000m/s. I estimate.
This is most powerful chlorate mixture, which I saw ever. And even is it cheap and easy. If is it truth, is it a new invent on energetic field of research... :cool:

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-4-2021 at 10:56

First attempt show good result: NaClO3 10...Oil 10W40 0,2 ...styrofoam 1,3. Mixed under diluter, evaporated, density 1.1,...dia 25mm, kick 700mg HE. OB - 1,1. Metal profile 2mm heavily deformed. Easy and efficiency mixture. A new invent I estimate. Your results are better. But any way, very powerful composition... :cool:

papaya - 4-4-2021 at 11:21

Thanks LL, the interest in such energetics was in part inspired by guys like you and few others who has tested and shared the most unusual compositions ever seen! Other guy to mention is energeticheretic in youtube, who is still active and recently does show interest in chlrotes particularly. I don't know if he's a forum nember here, I hope at least he will read these posts, may find it interesting. Back to the compositions - yes the titles are all correct quantities etc, I am also surprized with such outcome. Hexamine is an interesting fuel by itself, since even while the heat of combustion is around 30MJ/kg range which is inferior to most hydrocarbons, hoowever I found an article that proves its thermal decomposition is EXOTHERMIC, even without oxygen! It also generates more gas due to nitrovens! Thats why I started my journey with it. What we have - a chlorate, which is decomposed exothermically even in the abscence of fuels, hexamine - also same behavior, so in combination it must be pure disaster - that is what I thought... All about matching the heat evolution and decomposition reactions in proper temperature ranges.. But unfortunately It still required third fuel due to the positive OB problem I already described, so rosin was added. But rosin cannot be just mixed into composition separately for some unknown reasons it gave inconsistent results, that's why I react them together first by cooking (Im sure they react some way its obvious from odour - unusual camphor like aroma is given off, interesting what is o tained). I think it still can be tuned, maybe switching to other fuels and so on, someone may find this interesting enough to try, thats why I'm sharing.

papaya - 4-4-2021 at 11:26

Wow, LL you are FAST

I will be very obliged if you can see what PIB instead of PS does in this mixture, maybe PIB+hexamine... Wanted to try but no PIB nor possible at moment. Please! Also try higher densities, books it's saying that this is detrimental with cheddites, but I found the opposite! hand presseng to 1.3-1.4 only improved in my case(maybe also why they were so strong).
Also can I ask why negative OB is chosen often, something special about it? Edit: One more question LL - what if you use acetone instead of paint thinner (toluene mostly) in your preparation, since if I am not mistaken sodium chlorate is somewhat soluble in acetone, therefore you will take both the polymer and partially the oxidizer into solution!? Then, both will co-pricipitate on drying providing a very intimate mixture, what you can say?
[Edited on 4-4-2021 by papaya]

[Edited on 4-4-2021 by papaya]

[Edited on 4-4-2021 by papaya]

3 attempts

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-4-2021 at 06:02

I am lazy counting density, but all main is described, I estimate.
Why negative OB?....For example BP has OB - 21 and works as well.
Often is possible use pretty negative OB, because oxygen from oxidizer is used all. What is more important, than excess of smell smoke.
For styrofoam can be used mix toluene + acetone 1:1. Necessary try it. Easy test.
NaClO3 + hexamine was mixed under ethanol + water 1:1. Heating and evaporated at 70 C and grain through sieve 1mm.

Attachment: phpbRjvCY (971kB)
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Brightthermite - 5-4-2021 at 10:15

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

I am lazy counting density, but all main is described, I estimate.
Why negative OB?....For example BP has OB - 21 and works as well.
Often is possible use pretty negative OB, because oxygen from oxidizer is used all. What is more important, than excess of smell smoke.
For styrofoam can be used mix toluene + acetone 1:1. Necessary try it. Easy test.
NaClO3 + hexamine was mixed under ethanol + water 1:1. Heating and evaporated at 70 C and grain through sieve 1mm.

Estimate on VOD? Fast enough for shaped chargers maybe?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-4-2021 at 11:20

About 3,5...max 4 km/s. Not more. But papaya mixtures gives over 5 Km/s. According videos. His is possible use it sure.

papaya - 5-4-2021 at 17:25

@Brightthermite, I hope they can be used for shaped charges, I always wanted to try but did not yet, nor I have any experience with making those.

@LL, thank you for sharing your results, I see very interesting things there, needs some discussion.
First of all, your test #1, comprising only hydrocarbons is not much different from 90/10 kerosene mixture, so I'm not surprized it didn't work. Thing with these is not that they are not working, rather they need much much stronger initiation (10g) and maybe confinement. They might be strong, but not usable for us- look at the image attached (from Urbanski)

Too much liquid or "soft" material phlegmatize the mixture to extreme, therefore no initiation. What is needed I think is little liquid (oil) to fill the gaps, but also remainder fuel composed from hard particles - hexamine, vanilline - that was idea in my head.

Then, attempts #2 and #3 are very interesting, since they contain no oil or anything else, also #3 which is OB negative did much better job (did it punch hole btw?) than test #2 which is OB positive, since more fuel is more energy. This is in contradiction to what I said before I observed, that is - OB+ are much stronger than OB neutral ones. I've checked my recordings and I've found out that at a time I worked with KCLO3 mixtures only, not NaCLO3, to which I switched afterwards. Nevertheless what I told you was correct and I uploaded them as they are, you can see below.
OB++ : https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/4136af46-575f-43c3-9672-...
OB 0: https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/bfd7a78b-a177-41d7-9fa9-...
OB + : https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/94afffd3-934d-4f18-9644-...

It will be surprizing if NaCLO3 vs KCLO3 really made this much difference, but I don't believe in that, nor I have a clue why our results disagree in this particular detail. Only other thing I can blame is that I switched from 20mm tubing parts to 25mm ones (without any purpose) maybe that was the reason.

I have there two more tests OB neutral, but with different oil/hexamine ratios, both were failures:
more oil: https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/24b28409-5cfa-4cf5-af55-...
more hex: https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/aec72358-140c-409e-bbeb-...

Afterwards I switched to sodium salts mostly because I could produce pure NaCLO3 and successes started, but with different compositions (rosin containing, vanillin, etc), so I cannot directly compare both chlorates.
Also it is unfortunate that you didn't test OB neutral one (correspondents to 2gr hexamine), which potentially could be the winning one (reaching those rosin/hexamine ones probably, who knows). Other thing is the containment strenght - I always use these type of plastic piping parts:

this is damn thick with 5mm walls, but no metal content, maybe if you use similar ones, you can get similar results ? Also dry sodium chlorate at 150°C, I get 0.5% weight loss on totally dry looking chlorate after that and also some crackling sound are observed, - i think some amount of hydrate is present after recrystallization (not just moisture).

[Edited on 6-4-2021 by papaya]

[Edited on 6-4-2021 by papaya]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-4-2021 at 00:01

Oxygen balance is not holy grail of successful. Best ratio should by zero OB. But usually is used OB negative. Even to - 20. For maximal use oxygen. If you use different mixtures with a more fuels, different metal targets, different boosters, best result never you find out.

1) 10 or 12g is too weak charge. For relevant (basic) measurement is it 20 - 25g. For standard booster 800mg. At 12g the booster affects result. Weak charge looks a like stronger.
2)The filling must always be higher than wider. Therefore, for diameter of 25 mm it is necessary to use minimal 20g charge.
3) Because is used 20g is necessary used metal profile minimal thickness of 3mm. Maybe 4 mm.

A) I reccomend use your plast, is it good choice.
B) I reccomend use 3mm (or4) steel profile, long 100 mm for every attemtp use new metal.
C) always 800mg for booster.
D) always use exact 20g at 1,3g/cc, or same height (prepare always more, for example 25g)
E) always use same washer and others conditions. (stone?)
F) always use only one fuel counted on zero OB.
G) 3 best results testing again with OB + 5 and - 5 (Or - 10 + 10)

After this, is possible do step with mixing fuels.

[Edited on 6-4-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

papaya - 6-4-2021 at 03:43

Doctor, I can only sign under every recommendation you suggested here, they are fair enough. Targets - I used every scrap metal I had in reach,so yes some were 2mm, others 2.5mm, at least I measured them

. Otherwise I need to buy that and transport, etc.. Quantities - I was aware that due to low height of charge it may be affected somewhat and 20g would be optimal. In fact that 11:12g charges after hand pressing occupy exactly half of that plastic tubing, there's even some production marking in the inner side and I always reach to that line! Two factors stopping me to use 20g, most imoortantly the NOISE since I'm not too far from where it can be heard, second is waste of chlorate, since as you know every success is after many failures. But this one I especially agree. When in past I used 20mm tubing it proveded adequate height (nerly x2 column) but as it turned out it is already a critical diameter.. You see all important factors show up only after some time and going back of course I could do it much more scientifically consistent. About OB - some very good information that negative is sometimes better, I find it very logical now, may at some point try to see the difference. Thanks!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-4-2021 at 06:27

A lot researchers use sand pit. For 20g is enough 30 - 40 cm deep. Efficiency of charge will more powerful, but at same conditions can run measurement comparative. In a new conditions. Also is possible use water pipe plast. In-diameter is 26 mm and wall 3,2 mm. Very cheap and available in same store a like plastu water clutch, which you use. There may be concrete at the bottom in pit. Also you can try firstly your best charge 20g. And 20g with hexamine only and zero OB.

papaya - 9-4-2021 at 12:28

Resluts from 20g NaCLO3/Hexamine ballanced mixture:
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/5fa9dbd8-4f50-4013-ac89-...
Didn't work properly... I mean there happened something very different from what it was intended for, look at slow motion. Dr., what was that?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-4-2021 at 22:03

It so happened, that the booster scattered the charge on the dust and set it on fire. It was only deflagration of charge. With partially detonation about 10%. Only booster was full detonation. It seems, that your original mixtures
are much better. How exact oil you use in original mixtures? Vegetable? Olive? Or another? Next: I think, that your plate is too thick. Maybe will necessary use steel profile 3 mm. Not flat plate on flat wood. Profile has big advantage. Has air gap and always same distance for measurement. And a like bonus, bottom part catch secondary energy. Any way, very nice spectacular attempt...

I recommend stop attempts until to obtain minimal 10 pieces same profiles. For example 40x40 (or 30x50) x 150 mm, 2,5 - 3 mm of thickness. And a like first, try your best mixture 20g. Next: Well ground powders mixed mixed dry, is base error. Always is necessary create water porridge and create final dry grain 1 - 2x2 mm. Next: Density 1,4 is too much from my experiences.
I recommend 1,25. Nevr you fill fine powder. Always bigger grains.

[Edited on 10-4-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

papaya - 10-4-2021 at 02:19

I already started thinking it went unintentionally thermobaric

Oil - I wrote minefal oil, but that is really a stuff sold in small bottles for sewing machines or something like that, its a thick transparent liquid with little to no odour.I tried also greenish olive vegetable oil, that also worked, but back then it was time of mixed fails/successes (no final recepie) so I cannot say if that was the veg. oil to blame or not. Anyway, veg. oil is a drying oil so maybe it is not worth for storage stability. Used one time vazeline without a problem. Oil is 0.3g to 10g of chlorate as written, but it is not a Religion,it was based on some guess not deep research, one may tune to better value maybe. But from my previuos attempts just oil + hexamine didn't work at 20mm diameter at least(see that last videos with kclo3), so don't be surprized if you try. It needs third, hard, maybe insoluble in oil (!?), fuel, better if with unsaturated bonds, reactive gruops, lower decomposition temperature, etc, at least how I understand. I don't know if that is coincidence or not but fuels that worked like hexamine vanilline are capable of sublimation, high vapour pressure, does it help? In my mixes first hexamine + rosin composite is made by melting them at 180C.Best powr ratio 2:1 hex to rosin. But reverse ratio is also interesting 1:2.15 hex/rosin, since it iy equimolar ratio of hexamine to abietic acid, it maybe creates a resinate salt(one is acid other is base)! I tried that only once it also worked,seemed juust a little less power,BUT.. it has good sides also - the mixture has plasticy properties - not much self sticky like real plasticine, but still easily put into tube press with finger, a hole made with pencil and it holds the the shape! About plate thickness - was thick but it last attempt it didn't matter since it burned. But I'm curious to see what damage to such a thick plate can potentially be done, let it be around some time

Next about wet mixing,sifting etc - you are rigth, but I'm after the most practical mixtures maybe (?) One, that is just compining components and ready, if one exists of course. Same with density - why use mix that works only at 1.1 when there isother working at 1.4? IMHO that rosin stuff is not the most energy containing one, it owes power maybe best part to density. Regards.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-4-2021 at 08:14

OK, thank for detail explanation. If it works at 1.4, is it of course better. Type of oil is not important, it seems. But very interest is abietic acid + hexamine, which create some salt. Maybe is it key of your invent. And partially binder. Rosin should be 80 % abietic acid and next natural compounds. Maybe is it pretty smelling process at 180 Celsius? 2 hours for melting process is maybe too much. Even one hour is enough long. But if this gived best results, is it important process. Because so huge holes from 10g - 12g chlorate mix are incredible. Especially on pretty thick target profile 2,4 mm.

papaya - 10-4-2021 at 16:33

Process is not that smelly, I did it indoors, some minty flavour. I used a small beaker 1/5 full and wrapped the mouth with Al foil to avoid oxidation, only fhing it requires to open that lid, stirr and scrap down into mixture again some of the hexamine that deposits on the colder walls due to sublimation. 180C is not critical to rosin in the abscence of oxygen, I read some rosin related chemistry but I forgot now to what maximum temperature it is still resistant, it may partially destroy hexamine though(maybe that is needed??). If I add just a pinch of hexamine to the molten rosin (not the whole quantity) it is obvious that it DISSOLVES into melt, of course when adding all powder it cannot dissolve anymore. Also with reaction the melt becomes darker with time. I'm not sure what is the chemical reaction here, I googled it but to my surprize not a single paper found, I found that theres some reaction with formaldehyde (addition to double bond yielding -CH2OH derivative), but seems to be not polycondensation(no polymer). also I know that hexamine is used as a substitude to formalin in making of phenol-formaldehyde resins (resols) since it will degrade at elevated temperatures to formaldehyde and some imines.. Complex chemistry here,theres a nature paper about it, if I remember correctly I choose temperature from that research so hexamine to become a little reactive at least and do something. monitored temperature with thermocuople, above 200C starts to really blacken, may yield char, not recommended.Below that I'm not sure if something usable will be obtained, I never explored all variables, don't want to deter anyone from actual research.Might even indifidual mix of rosin and hexamine powder just work? I had one failure but JUST ONCE! So one can test and prove that no reaction is needed, I'll be glad to know. I would be very thankful if someone with good organic chemistry background or one having IR spectrometer could look/ explain that reaction, no paper found after all!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-4-2021 at 00:10

Energetic materials is an unexplored field of research. TACP has been known for 100 years. But never explored in detail. Until 2014. When it turned out that its detonation velocity at a density of 1.9 g / cc is up to 7500 m / s. Also diethylene glycol has been known for 100 years and NaClO4 even longer.
And yet, it was not until 2010 that the energy material NaP + DEG + H2O was discovered. Its VoD is up to 7000m/s. Incredible simply mixture, which no require nothing chemical equipment. Only mixing of 3 things at normal temperature. After mixing the mixture warms to 40 ° C it itself. And then it hardens. Done. And it holds in the cavity. During a 20 minute only. For this reason, it is quite possible to discover a new fuel for NaClO3. Without precise knowledge of the composition. Just discover and describe only the procedure that works. After all, the preparation of ROSHEX is a more demanding process. Requires a rugged chemical thermometer. Not everyone has one. Also the supply of more precisely regulated heat, not everyone has it. Measuring the temperature in a closed container is another problem. For example, I never needed these things. When I researching anything, the emphasis is on maximum ease of preparation. But it's great to know that such a powerful mixture can be prepared.
Which is the basis of science madness...... :cool:

papaya - 13-4-2021 at 13:51

Another comparative test, this time 12g versus 20g of that chlorate/hexamine/rosin/oil mixture on a 5mm thick steel plate. All parameters are the same (casing, initiation, density,etc) only the loading height is different:
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/edc4b1fe-c015-43d6-8e5e-...
News are a little disappointing - the dent left from 20g is noticeably smaller than from only 12g! Therefore the action of initiator was significant in previous tests, longer charge became weaker - not in the absolute energy output of course rather the pressure at the exit end I guess.I don't know what if there was for example x3-x4 times longer charge - might it even sustain detonation all along ? But this would require much more than 20g of material, I doubt I will ever be able to test that.
At least it left a dent on that thick plate..

MineMan - 13-4-2021 at 14:10

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Another comparative test, this time 12g versus 20g of that chlorate/hexamine/rosin/oil mixture on a 5mm thick steel plate. All parameters are the same (casing, initiation, density,etc) only the loading height is different:
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/edc4b1fe-c015-43d6-8e5e-...
News are a little disappointing - the dent left from 20g is noticeably smaller than from only 12g! Therefore the action of initiator was significant in previous tests, longer charge became weaker - not in the absolute energy output of course rather the pressure at the exit end I guess.I don't know what if there was for example x3-x4 times longer charge - might it even sustain detonation all along ? But this would require much more than 20g of material, I doubt I will ever be able to test that.
At least it left a dent on that thick plate..

Do you have nitromethane?

papaya - 13-4-2021 at 14:23

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Do you have nitromethane?

Unfortunately not, but also I'm not a fan of low boiling liquids or other things that will turn energetic into a short living thing. Water nitromethane nitrobenzene all is good as long as you don't want to store it more than a day. Not that I need to store them, but I see a disadvantage in that therefore no interest to try.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-4-2021 at 02:23

20g is weaker than 12g under the same conditions. Yes, at 40 g and a longer column, the detonation can completely disappear. Anyway, 12g and also 20g does a good work on thick 5mm steel. It is not a failure, it is a useful part of research. And an interesting lesson for anyone. Not everything is as clear and successful as it seems. That's what I meant when I saw first attempts, first successfulls with mixture NaClO3 + hexrosin.
MineMan: Yes, is possible use nitromethane. Or some else. But the main think were from start create maximaly simpl mixture with a good power for shaped charges. The, what increase power and stability of shock wave (always), is old good powder Aluminium 5%. Even 2% causes miracle.

UndermineBriarEverglade - 27-9-2024 at 16:13

Quote: Originally posted by Brightthermite

Trying a mix of ETN and NC as another potential option for pourable explosives. Using double base smokeless powered, acetone and ETN I made a thick gel in a 3/1 NC/ETN.

Already some potential downsides-it took a lot of acetone to form a 5 gram slurry. It also increased the volume dramatically so this leads me to believe it is not at max density. The volume increase could be do to air being stirred into the mix, and since the mix is so thick not much air was allowed to escape even with lots of agitation.

Anyways ill report the results.

Did you do any subsequent experimentation with this? I'm exploring ETN mixes and would rather use DBSP than NC (one less nitration to do).

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

For styrofoam can be used mix toluene + acetone 1:1. Necessary try it. Easy test.

LL, I put some polystyrene under acetone and it formed a thick gel rather than dissolving. I removed air bubbles under a vacuum, but as it dried more bubbles appeared and the final density of the plastic is very low. In your "styrofex" video, did the styrofoam completely dissolve in the solvent? If so, what do you think about xylene instead of toluene?

[Edited on 2024-9-28 by UndermineBriarEverglade]

UndermineBriarEverglade - 10-10-2024 at 06:23

Tried making both mixes. I calculated 1.73g polystyrene per 100g ETN for complete combustion. I "dissolved" .25g polystyrene in acetone until it was a gel, then added 5g ETN. Total failure. The polystyrene did not absorb any ETN and quickly hardened. Adding more acetone dissolved the ETN, but the polystyrene stayed floating in it and hardened. Additional polystyrene failed to soften when added to this mix. I think this is because ETN is much more soluble than polystyrene.

I removed the polystyrene and added 7.45g of DBSP to the ETN acetone solution (didn't attempt to calculate OB since I don't know exact composition of my powder). It didn't completely dissolve but with stirring eventually formed a sort of slurry. While drying, it seemed like the ETN was forming a hard layer on the top, protecting the liquid underneath. It dried with a wrinkled surface. Since I have not yet built a working impact tester I fear that this mix may be more sensitive than plain ETN.

It seems like both mixes require more polymer to form a smooth mix than would be optimal for performance. I didn't even bother drying under a vacuum.

dettoo456 - 10-10-2024 at 08:46

A plasticizer or oil (soluble in Acetone or whatever solvent you’re using for the ETN) might help to keep the polystyrene malleable during mixing and after it’s fully solvent-dry.