Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Glyphosate Roundup Ban in the EU by the end of 2022

Mush - 26-6-2020 at 14:09

It's good for the environment bad for home chemists.

Glyphosate weedkillers are great source of different amines.

Some EU countries, North American states have banned Roundup already.

Glyphosate is currently approved in the EU until 15 December 2022
https://ec.europa.eu/food/plant/pesticides/glyphosate_en

There is nothing new here,it was all over the news months ago.
I would like to draw attention to this upcoming change before it's too late.
The same thing had happened to DCM, nitromethane etc.
Losing a good, OTC chemical always a shock.

mackolol - 26-6-2020 at 14:31

I don't know but nitromethane and DCM are still available to me in EU.
And as for glyphosate ban, I think it will have similar impact as DDT ban. There was a thread on SM and someone have said, that his grandfather has bought very big quantity of DDT just before the ban, so he could carry on for few next years.
Glyphosate is not bad for environment though. It's decomposition in environment is quite quick and the products are ECO friendly. It is said to be unhealthy to humans though, but different sources give different data. The fact that a lot of recent plantations are treated with glyphosate and that we actually eat it in small quantities is the reason I think.
If someone knows more about the toxicity of glyphosate, reply, I'm curious.


[Edited on 26-6-2020 by mackolol]

stoichiometric_steve - 26-6-2020 at 15:29

Quote: Originally posted by Mush  
It's good for the environment bad for home chemists.

Glyphosate weedkillers are great source of different amines.


Which amines exactly? I don't get it.

karlos³ - 26-6-2020 at 15:36

Isopropylamine at least, I don't know how anything else though.

Mush - 27-6-2020 at 03:06

Quote: Originally posted by mackolol  
I don't know but nitromethane and DCM are still available to me in EU.
And as for glyphosate ban, I think it will have similar impact as DDT ban. There was a thread on SM and someone have said, that his grandfather has bought very big quantity of DDT just before the ban, so he could carry on for few next years.
Glyphosate is not bad for environment though. It's decomposition in environment is quite quick and the products are ECO friendly. It is said to be unhealthy to humans though, but different sources give different data. The fact that a lot of recent plantations are treated with glyphosate and that we actually eat it in small quantities is the reason I think.
If someone knows more about the toxicity of glyphosate, reply, I'm curious.

[Edited on 26-6-2020 by mackolol]


Indeed, I wasn't too precise,probably bad for mammals.

I was also wrong using plural. Dicamba which is a different type of herbicide (Dicamba-dimethylammonium -> dimethylamine source) from Syngenta still available.

Selling 100% nitromethane (explosive precursor) to general public is illegal. DCM use also restricted. Although, both can be acquired.


AMINE SALTS OF CARBOXYLIC ACID HERBICIDES
United States Patent Application 20180303092
Kind Code:
A1

Abstract:
The invention generally involves combining specialty amines with herbicidal carboxylic acids to form a new generation of salts with improved characteristics. The salts contain a cation of an amine and an anion of a carboxylic acid herbicide. The amine is advantageously selected from mono-isobutylamine (MIBA), N-methylaminoethanol (MMEA), dimethylaminopropylamine (DMAPA), 2-dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE), methyldiethanolamine (MDEA), and 1,2-diaminopropane (1,2-DAP). The amine-herbicide combinations may possess one or more improved characteristics, including maximum loading, wettability, drift, viscosity, and volatilization.


[Edited on 27-6-2020 by Mush]

j_sum1 - 27-6-2020 at 03:48

I don't know where this will go. It seems there is a market for a fast-acting broad spectrum herbicide with no residue.
Around here it is possible to buy herbicides based on ammonium nonanoate. Per functional dosage it is about four times the price. Apparently both herbicides together gives a spectacular result.
I can see the marketing gurus latching onto this and promoting an ultra effective "low glyphosate" product. In which case, Roundup will be with us for a while yet. I don't see it being removed without an alternative in place.

Refinery - 27-6-2020 at 04:05

Most consumer chemical feedstocks are so expensive per unit that it is generally better idea to obtain the stuff from somewhere else. The price can easily go to 40-100$ per liter/kg, not including work input to isolate the compound. Various exceptions exist. For small amounts used in experiments this does not really matter, though. The biggest PITA in my opinion is the "all-natural" trend in which all products are diluted or substituted with something that is practically inert, or some simple formulations are changed into complex, non-sense stuff. A paint remover that was mostly benzyl alcohol and a phlegmatizer was rebranded into something that contains ten different bull*t compounds that serve no use for anything reasonable - and surprise, the price went up 50%. I wonder though, who will pay 40 bucks for half a liter can that can remove few sq m2 of paint? Another example are consumer fertilizers that contain up to 70% of inert fillers that serve no purpose at all.

Establishing a company in most EU jurisdictions is so easy that it should not be an issue to a more involved amateur. Some services can offer the registration even for free.

mackolol - 27-6-2020 at 05:15

Quote: Originally posted by Mush  



AMINE SALTS OF CARBOXYLIC ACID HERBICIDES
United States Patent Application 20180303092
Kind Code:
A1

Abstract:
The invention generally involves combining specialty amines with herbicidal carboxylic acids to form a new generation of salts with improved characteristics. The salts contain a cation of an amine and an anion of a carboxylic acid herbicide. The amine is advantageously selected from mono-isobutylamine (MIBA), N-methylaminoethanol (MMEA), dimethylaminopropylamine (DMAPA), 2-dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE), methyldiethanolamine (MDEA), and 1,2-diaminopropane (1,2-DAP). The amine-herbicide combinations may possess one or more improved characteristics, including maximum loading, wettability, drift, viscosity, and volatilization.


[Edited on 27-6-2020 by Mush]

That's interesting, thanks for sharing the data. I was wondering lately, why herbicides are sold as different amine salts and what the advantages are. Now I know :D

draculic acid69 - 29-6-2020 at 01:35

If roundup goes that's really the only source for an otc amine that isn't ammonia.
I've seen a few dimethylamine product as well in the same aisle as roundup but I don't think there was much %wise as to make it worthwhile.dicamba looks interesting as a possible trialkoxy benzene ring precursor if one is inclined to need a 2,3,6, trialkoxy ring formation.

Eddie Current - 29-6-2020 at 02:00

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
If roundup goes that's really the only source for an otc amine that isn't ammonia.


An interesting paper:

https://escholarship.org/content/qt0zf4f1zt/qt0zf4f1zt.pdf?t...

[Edited on 29-6-2020 by Eddie Current]

Refinery - 29-6-2020 at 04:33

Just out of curiosity, what glyphosate can be used to synthesize?

Tsjerk - 29-6-2020 at 05:27

Not too much, but glyphosate is usually sold as the salt of isopropylamine which is quite hard to synthesize without hydroxylamine.

Corrosive Joeseph - 29-6-2020 at 09:11

Just for the record....

Where I am, originally, the glyphosate salt of isopropylamine Round-up was the only available product, but it disappeared from hardware store shelves around here about 2 years ago and was replaced by the type using the potassium counter-ion..... This is still the main product, I never saw the former for sale again in my locale.


/CJ

Abromination - 29-6-2020 at 10:51

Amines should still be available even if glyphosate is still phased out, DEET can be hydrolysed to form diethylamine. I don’t see that going away any time soon.

[Edited on 6-29-20 by Abromination]