Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Amateur chemist set off explosion near my home

Amateur chemist set off explosion near my home

hkparker - 15-2-2011 at 15:41

So a few minutes from my house this just happened. Never heard of the guy and I cant tell if he was a serious amateur chemist or just some kewl making flash powder. Either way what he did sounds dangerous, and there holding him without bail of charges of arson, possession of a destructive device and unlawful explosion of a destructive device.

The article labels him as "an unskilled amateur chemist". *sigh* more reasons for people to not be happy about us...

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/02/15/3403107/blast-suspect-hobby...

Magpie - 15-2-2011 at 16:16

There should be some basic training for kewls. Rule #1: don't set your explosive off within the city limits, much less your own backyard.

cyanureeves - 15-2-2011 at 16:22

ryan knows terrorist should'nt be the only ones with blow-up know how,and so do the authorities.i'm gonna fill my computer with gay porn just in case they confiscate my computer.

entropy51 - 15-2-2011 at 16:24

He's 25 years old and still living with mom. Can't expect much from this flavor of kule.

Magpie - 15-2-2011 at 17:19

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

He's 25 years old and still living with mom. Can't expect much from this flavor of kule.

Entropy when we were 25 that would have been almost unheard of, but nowadays I don't think it is all that rare, unfortunately. At least he is "obsessed" with chemistry instead of porn or video games.

peach - 15-2-2011 at 18:01

I have an even better rule number 1. Don't make explosives.

Subsection note: You can't develop something better than the military aged 14 with your pocket money and you do not have any realistic use for explosives. The short amount of time you've spent reading things on the internet does not make you a bomb disposal expert. Stop watching future weapons.

And with that in mind. Why do we have an energetics forum but no inorganics? The energetics section is kewl central. There may as well be one for 'how to get high'. Whilst I get frustrated with the arguing at times, it's often constructive. As opposed to this.

[Edited on 16-2-2011 by peach]

UnintentionalChaos - 15-2-2011 at 18:14

Quote: Originally posted by peach

I have an even better rule number 1. Don't make explosives.

Subsection note: You can't develop something better than the military aged 14 with your pocket money and you do not have any realistic use for explosives. The short amount of time you've spent reading things on the internet does not make you a bomb disposal expert. Stop watching future weapons.

And with that in mind. Why do we have an energetics forum but no inorganics? The energetics section is kewl central. There may as well be one for 'how to get high'. Whilst I get frustrated with the arguing at times, it's often constructive. As opposed to this.

[Edited on 16-2-2011 by peach]

To be fair, some interesting chemistry has come out of energetics, but it is rather the exception than the rule.

peach - 15-2-2011 at 19:20

I can appreciate that it is a theoretically useful forum, particularly for people who work in an industry making blasting compounds for mining. But the reality of what's posted on there is as bad as someone asking for a meth guide; which would go instantly in the detritus bin. Ironically, blasting is not all that complex in terms of the explosives used, yet it is also their most practical application.

And again, why have that and no inorganics?

There seems to have been an increasing number of these incidents appearing over the last few years. I am not speaking so much of people dying related to potentially useful home chemistry (like building an autoclave and making a mistake), but dying whilst in the process of making something that has no practical use outside of damaging something or killing someone.

Every question related to DIY explosives in the energetics forum should be treated the same way production drug synthesis is in the organics.

When a pipe bomb does what it says on the tin
<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/St8wVp552DA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Another pipe bomb gone wrong

Quote:

Teen Arrested After Pipebomb Detonates In Hand

Posted: 10:57 am PDT May 3, 2010
VACAVILLE -- An 18-year-old man lost two fingers when a pipe bomb exploded in his hand over the weekend, police said Monday.

Police learned about the incident when Kaiser Hospital informed them that a man had arrived there with serious injuries caused by an explosive device, Vacaville police Sgt. Charlie Spruill said.

Investigators determined that a group of about seven people had gathered at Centennial Park at 501 Browns Valley Road before the pipe bomb exploded around 10:20 p.m.

Spruill said Vacaville resident Bryan Cook ignited the pipe bomb using a homemade fuse but that it exploded prematurely in his hand before he could throw it. Cook's friends took him to the hospital.

Cook and a 17-year-old boy, also from Vacaville, were arrested on suspicion of manufacturing, transporting and possessing an explosive device, Spruill said.

No other pipe bombs or bomb-making materials were found at the scene.

Fone's stockpile of explosives, which killed him

Another

And another.

Quote:

(John says: This is an example from 2005 in the UK)

A chemistry student who made a homemade explosive favoured by suicide bombers has been jailed for 14 months.

Edward Mattison, 21, from Salford, was obsessed with explosives and filmed a detonation of a huge home-made bomb, Manchester Crown Court heard.

He was caught after detonating a device in his garage at his home in Worsley, Greater Manchester, on 30 May 2005.

Mattison, of Brereton Drive, admitted three charges of possessing explosive substances and one of making them.

Mattison's interest in explosives was discovered when a neighbour heard an explosion and found his garage door blown off its hinges.

He claimed it was a "big firework" but police called in the bomb squad.

Residents left their homes and a controlled explosion was carried out.

One chemical involved, known as the "Mother of Satan" (this is Acetone Peroxide) because it is dangerously unstable, was used in the 7 July London bombings and by Palestinian suicide bombers.

Had it ignited it would have killed or injured anyone in the vicinity, Gary Woodhall, prosecuting, told the court.

When police checked his computer, they found Mattison was a contributor to two websites used by amateur explosives ('energetics') enthusiasts.

They also found a video clip showing him setting off a bomb in a deserted field by the M60 motorway which left an 8ft crater.

Officers also discovered that he had downloaded child pornography images.

'Lesson learned'

Jamie Hamilton, defending, said the child porn was accessed on only one occasion "out of curiosity".

"His only motivation was thrill-seeking and in interest in chemistry. This has been a salutary lesson to him," he said.

Mattison was jailed for 14 months, to run concurrently, on each charge of possessing an explosive substance. There was no separate penalty for the making an explosive substance charge.

He also pleaded guilty to downloading indecent images of children, and was given a conditional discharge for two years.

Judge Adrian Lyon, sentencing, said: "Any offence involving the use or preparation of explosive material is serious.

The fact remains, material found in your bedroom was enormously dangerous to you and anyone else living in the vicinity."

[Edited on 16-2-2011 by peach]

The WiZard is In - 15-2-2011 at 20:04

Quote: Originally posted by peach

I can appreciate that it is a theoretically useful forum, particularly for people who work in an industry making blasting compounds for mining. But the reality of what's posted on there is as bad as someone asking for a meth guide; which would go instantly in the detritus bin. Ironically, blasting is not all that complex in terms of the explosives used, yet it is also their most practical application.

01-02-89
[rewritten from a UPI News Wire story djh]

BETHESDA, Md. - Four teenagers described by friends as intelligent and as
having a fascination with chemistry and rocketry were tinkering with a
homemade bomb this weekend when the experiment went awry. Relatives of the
foursome described them as studious, curious and fascinated with science.
Diego S-R, who graduated from Walt Whitman High in 1988 and was close
friends with Gustasvo M. and Bruno P. described the youths as "the best
chemistry students in the school." A family friend of the Dov F. described him as
"always a brilliant child, extraordinarily brilliant." The friend speculated the young
men were planning New Year's fireworks. "(They were likely) trying to find out
how much power they could get out of mixing chemicals," Diego S-R told the
Washington Post. "They were probably going to go to some field and see how
big a hole they could make. They were peaceful people. They would never try to
hurt anybody."

The young men had made a potent pipe bomb as "a prank," but it exploded as
two of the youths were leaning over it. The youths, Samir G. 17, and Dov F. 18,
were killed instantly, 15-year-old Gustavo M. and Bruno P. 18, died hours after
the blast. Gustavo M. was a sophomore at Walt Whitman High School while the
others had graduated from the school last year.

Quid rides? Mutato nomine, de te fabula narratur.
Horace

[Why do you smile? Change the but name, and it is of yourself
that the tale is told.]

NB - The resident fools (of which there are several) here often
complain loudly when safety information is posted, dangers
are noted.

djh
----
In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments;
there are consequences.

Robert Green Ingersoll

hkparker - 15-2-2011 at 20:36

Quote: Originally posted by peach

And with that in mind. Why do we have an energetics forum but no inorganics? The energetics section is kewl central.

I think chemistry in general serves that purpose. But I do agree we need to moderate the energetics section more. I know Rosco spent some time as moderator there, would he or anyone else be willing to takr care of things there?

Regolith - 15-2-2011 at 22:52

GUYS HIS NAME WAS PHONE!!!!! PH-ONE he's dead the least we can do is remember him correctly. Added after typing the message. Thanks be to Phone who at least took his experiment to an empty local park and not where he could end others with his accident. His wasn't a pipe bomb either it was simply poured into a hole and fuse set. The ground made one hell of a shaped charge pointing the blast UP. Like one of the kids mentioned already his problem was also fuse related, he ended up lighting it with a lighter directly thinking he would have time to run. NO seriously, he was last seen leaning over the pile with his lighter.

HKparker, MAN lay SUPER low. People around you are going to be freaked right out for the next little while. We don't need one of our own making the news.

"In October, Linn was injured as a result of a chemical explosion known as a thermite reaction. The police contacted him after that incident, but it's unclear what action they took." Heh, no it's very clear, they had meth heads to bust not people copying mythbusters... (good cover kid, thats a good idea).

The big problem with all of the above is making a pipe bomb... you transport that kinda thing in a plastic bag in a plastic cooler filled with sand and it buried in the center (no metal casing PERIOD,(you also pack the charge ONSITE) use plastic or something else with less mass to its frag, plastic film canister) and secondly you don't make quantities to make an 8 foot crater...

Sure having the knowledge to make such a compound may be useful one day but there's no reason to go overboard and see how BIG you can make it. You need to go WAY outside any populated area just to test it. As opposed to taping it (say 20 grams MAX, even that will sever most trees) to a tree whilst hunting and setting it off.

If these kids had working brains they would also realize Mythbusters always goto the Alameda county BOMB RANGE, not the backyard.

The WiZard is In - 16-2-2011 at 06:42

Quote: Originally posted by Regolith

The big problem with all of the above is making a pipe bomb... you transport that kinda thing in a plastic bag in a plastic cooler filled with sand and it buried in the center (no metal casing PERIOD,(you also pack the charge ONSITE) use plastic or something else with less mass to its frag, plastic film canister) and secondly you don't make quantities to make an 8 foot crater...

Indeed — Infernal devices are not chemistry — for sure not fireworks.

HURT WHILE MAKING HUGE FIRECRACKER
New York Daily News 4 July 1989

A Bronx teenager’s hands were blown off and his brother and a friend were
severely mangled when a huge firecracker they were trying to make exploded
yesterday.

The three had stuffed the powder from a number of small but powerful
firecrackers into a pipe.

They were hammering a sealing cap onto it when it blew up, sending white-hot
pieces of metal flying.

Police found several severed fingers at the scene in a basement apartment on
Bronx Park East in the Pelham Parkway section near the Bronx Zoo.

“My stupid sons! One of them lost both his hands, the other one lost a hand and
hurt his leg,” Joseph Perlmutter, superintendent of the building, told a neighbor
after the blast.

Police sealed off the building after the explosion, shortly before 7 p.m. Bomb
squad officers removed another pipe bomb.

One of the victims, Harry Perlmutter, 18, who had been holding the pipe lost both
hands in the blast, cops said.

His brother, Joesph Jr. 28, lost four fingers on his left hand and suffered leg
injuries.

A friend, Dante Bang [sic] 18, of Wallace Ave. lost an index finger on his right
hand and suffered shrapnel injuries to his groin and ankles.

Police said the three working in a 6-foot-by-14-foot bedroom in the basement
apartment, had taken about “30 to 40” powerful M-80 firecrackers apart and were
stuffing the powder into the pipe.

The three had planned to ignite the pipe today in the park across the street from
the six-story apartment building, police said.

djh
---
I would paraphrase from the Homers Iliad —

The parents broke into a great cry and their relatives wailed in answer.

-----
‘Then Achilles stripped from him the armour that Patroklos had
worn. The other captains of the Greeks came up and looked at
Hector where he lay and all marvelled at his size and strength and
goodliness. And Achilles dragged the body at his chariot and drove
away towards the ships.

‘Hector’s mother, standing on the tower on the wall, saw all that
was done and she broke into a great cry. And all the women of
Troy took up the cry and wailed for Prince Hector who had guarded
them and theirs from the foe. Andromache, his wife, did not know
the terrible thing that had happened. She was in an inner chamber
of Hector’s house, weaving a great web of cloth and broidering it
with flowers, and she had ordered her handmaidens to heat water
for the bath, so that Hector might refresh himself when he came in
from the fight. But now she heard the wail of the women of Troy.
Fear came upon her, for she knew that such wailing was for the
best of their warriors.’

quicksilver - 16-2-2011 at 10:01

Several issue here. The first was peroxides and a metal containment.* The second was a potent immaturity over the results and potential. Next was the levels. With the pictures appeared to be well over a pound of God knows what. Yes: this was a tragedy and perhaps an avoidable one.
Would censorship do anything to avoid this?

Perhaps the exact opposite was one agenda that could have avoided it. Making certain materials without the sum totality of their susceptibility to initiation may have had an effect but censorship within this forum would have only placed the knowledge elsewhere. The methodology is out there. The safety agenda may not be. Metal containment is weapons mfg. Results from shock-wave injury, while potentially deadly have a diminished distance.

I will NOT attempt to rationalize or intellectualize the tragedy. I would suggest that censorship is not an effective response. This thread proves that.
Unquestionably the level of energetic chemical knowledge needs to be moved to a level of a broader scope in certain posts. Occasionally that is not possible due to the intellectual laziness of some who don't move beyond the "recipe" phase of the subject.
In a great many posts there are responses questioning the appropriateness of the subject focus. The DETRITUS section is rather large, as are closed threads. The mods do the best they can.
Knocking down the "energetic" or biochem" sections will not stop tragedies or drug manufacture; there are too many sources and in a free society: there always will be.

There are mid-ground interventionist methods that could be upgraded, however it's a complete unknown where the "knowledge" of this incident came from. There have been several "safety" devoted threads. Should there be a "safety" devoted section? That would have to encompass a great deal of what should be a standard in entry level chem education but since the dumbing-down of educational systems, I doubt that is as complete as it could be.
"This is poison, don't ingest it and this is explosive, don't work with it" doesn't provide the answers to the curiosity that thrives in many people.

* Think through the tragedies. What explosive does not require a primary? What configuration can be lethal quite a few meters from blast origin? Containment of peroxides.
What material can be mfg with hair bleach acetone & many acids? What takes an absolute minimum to synthesis? What standards allow the total over-shadowing of chemistry safety to concoct? A recipe-type agenda w/ peroxides in containment or contact proximity.

[Edited on 16-2-2011 by quicksilver]

Arthur Dent - 16-2-2011 at 10:27

I know this may not be a popular position among the young ones who love blowin' stuff real good and the kewls, but i've always been weary of the contents in the Energetic Materials forum and I have been debating its relevance.

I understand that it's fun experimenting with that kind of stuff and that there are legitimate uses of chemistry to make Energetic Materials like the preparation of components for fireworks and thermite soldering. But when dumb kids blow themselves up, it attracts unneeded attention on all of us, and let's face it, it's already a remarkable feat just to acquire a few pieces of glassware and a few harmless chemicals for some of us around here.

But I do appreciate that the forum keepers have a low tolerance for dumb young kewls with a post count of one and paranoid redneck militia freaks discussing about how to make dangerous explosives, and I commend their effort to keep these unsavory individuals away from this place, but I think it should be even more strict. Frankly, what is the purpose of making PETN? ...or Nitroglycerin? why? Just because it can be done?

There's the APC forum to discuss about such stuff, and even there, the talk revolves more about making colorful stars for fireworks than about making pipe bombs and dangerous chemicals. I firmly believe that dangerous experiments with dangerous chemicals should be best kept in the hands of experienced chemists. Most people around here experiment with stuff that's up to their level of comfort and aren't daredevils when it comes to home chemistry. But young adolescents in need of adrenalin and pressed by pier pressure don't have that filter unfortunately. It looks kewl, until digits are missing and lives are lost!

My dad had a saying that a teenage kid's IQ decreases exponentially with the number of friends accompanying him... Yeah, I know kids learn through experience, but that's not the kind of experience that they should be exposed to or have access to...

Oh well, just my 2 cents...

Robert

madscientist - 16-2-2011 at 10:38

The Energetics Materials section does have a lot of problem posts. Please use the "Report" button on seeing one.

peach - 16-2-2011 at 10:43

A simple answer to the censorship issue is, do you think it would be harder or easier for meth / pcp / heroin cooks to brew it up if they were getting a to b to c help from a forum like this? Where they can feel more confident in what they're doing knowing it's coming from people who have studied chemistry and do it all the time for fun. A significant number of the people trying to make drugs have a very poor understanding of what they're doing, and don't understand the 'technojargin' being discussed in the potentially drug related threads on here due to the complexity involved. The threads are essentially censored already, by the level of prior knowledge needed to understand the science 'gibberish'.

Whilst drugs have resulted in people doing some terrible things, they have also resulted in a number of positive things; a lot of well known poets, musicians, artists and so on were either stoners, drunks, opium fiends or high in some way or another. I can't think of anything positive making high explosives at home can achieve. Yet it's discussion here is being treated much less stringently.

A safety section for explosives would be like having a 'how much should I take' section for drugs.

To answer my own rhetorical question above, having spent quite a long time reading forums solely dedicated to making drugs, it would make it exponentially easier.

Quote:

Frankly, what is the purpose of making PETN? ...or Nitroglycerin? why?

Agreed. And more to the point, the level of risk is far beyond it's potential use in learning.

Quote:

There's the APC forum to discuss about such stuff, and even there, the talk revolves more about making colorful stars for fireworks than about making pipe bombs and dangerous chemicals.

Precisely. Like with drugs, the more people know, the less interested they become in the base results; getting thousands of people high, or making something explode louder. The guys who've spent decades actually working with explosives sit around trying to figure out how to make their stars more sparkly, or how to get more rock out of the quarry with less complexity and risk involved; inane stuff compared to a lot of high explosive discussion.

Quote:

I firmly believe that dangerous experiments with dangerous chemicals should be best kept in the hands of experienced chemists.

Unfortunately, unlike the drug cooks, I suspect a lot of them think they are experienced chemists, as a lot of the explosives are not all that difficult to make and produce a very immediate impact. In fact, one of the explosives is so easy to make I have to put effort into not making it in my sinter funnels. Which is how they become instilled with a false sense of confidence in what they're doing.

[Edited on 16-2-2011 by peach]

hkparker - 16-2-2011 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by Regolith

HKparker, MAN lay SUPER low. People around you are going to be freaked right out for the next little while. We don't need one of our own making the news.

No kidding, especially because some kid lost a few fingers a few months ago from an M-80 even closer to my house... I need to be careful.

MrHomeScientist - 16-2-2011 at 11:49

Quote: Originally posted by hkparker

Quote: Originally posted by Regolith

HKparker, MAN lay SUPER low. People around you are going to be freaked right out for the next little while. We don't need one of our own making the news.

No kidding, especially because some kid lost a few fingers a few months ago from an M-80 even closer to my house... I need to be careful.

Agreed, definitely. You might want to consider holding off on the silicon thermite for a bit, that sulfur smell could draw some attention. Really sad that we have to tip-toe around with our hobby just because some people are idiots and their mistakes are very public.

Arthur Dent - 16-2-2011 at 12:37

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

Really sad that we have to tip-toe around with our hobby just because some people are idiots and their mistakes are very public.

Indeed. I'd be tempted to do some experiments outside, especially stuff that evolves chlorine gas or HCl, butI wouldn't dare put my labware on my balcony because it would surely attract the attention of all my neighbors. a total of 30 condos around my backstreet have a direct view of my balcony!!!

So I keep noxious experiments very simple in a mason jar in a bucket and use discretion best I can when I do experiment. If anyone asks questions, like it once happened, a while ago, i say "Oh, well I'm brewing my own beer and wine, and I prepare the stuff needed myself".

But yeah, it's getting hard to do pretty much anything!

Robert

madscientist - 16-2-2011 at 13:17

The Energetic Materials section is not going anywhere.

There may be no real point in making PETN. But is there a real point in making SO<sub>3</sub>? Or HF? We do it because we enjoy it.

Energetic materials are what got me into chemistry. I can't speak for Polverone or vulture, but I know our shared interest in energetics led to us meeting and this site being founded. Sciencemadness was to be, and remains today, a place where anything related to chemistry may be discussed.

Unfortunately Energetic Materials is currently overrun with garbage. It isn't meant to be for banging out recipes with baseball mitts, though to the casual reader it may appear so. I and the other moderators don't have the time to read every post on this forum - which is why I urge members to report problem posts. However, I'm not inviting the "Report" button to be used as a forum policy complaint hotline. If someone can write about PETN like a scientist, it isn't out of line, and please don't flood us with complaints about forum policy in response. But if they're talking about leveling buildings, firearms, etc. or their writing is garbled or inflammatory and the information lacking in quality, I will take action.

IrC - 16-2-2011 at 13:44

Yesterday when I went out to check the mail my car was blocked by 20 cars, trucks, hazmat vehicle, and around 30 various and sundry LEO. They were raiding a meth lab 50 feet from my place. I walked up to one and said "do you think I will be able to get out anytime soon?". No of course, I had the best parking area around. They were hauling out black bags, doing onsite chemical tests, you name it. Was 12 hours before it all cleared away and I could get my car out. The area for blocks around had a strong ether odor. The people had lived there for 2 months and until that day I had never noticed a chemical smell of any kind. The two things which bothered me most was what I would be going through if they had looked at my lab. Mostly high energy physics but you know how ignorant they are. Anything scientific looking being noticed would have landed me in a shit-storm I am sure. The other was the place was close enough to me to have burned up everything I owned had their place gone up. While some here may be sympathetic to drug making had I known I would have made good use of my 50 cal Desert Eagle Action Express on the cooks. They get no sympathy from me. What right did they have to endanger my safety and property let alone my anonymity for my lawful experimenting.

Regolith - 16-2-2011 at 16:27

We need to make sure we keep perspective on the greater issue. We can't all stop and/or turn away anytime something like this happens. The foolish of the world will find places other than here to blow themselves up on.

At the moment we have no people exploding themselves here. This was someone who from his own admission was copying mythbusters (probably taping it to show how much more amazing than a million dollar show he was).

The best we can do is continue the way this board already does. No swimming, no feeding the cooks. Use real science instead of shortcuts. Anything that needs proper equipment, is going to take that whole project out of the hands of pretty much everyone whom it shouldn't be in. It's one thing to OTC from scratch a complex reaction it's another to step by step someone who doesn't know it at all (and almost certainly lacks the respect for the science).

As a footnote I mention that certain "explosives", Picric Acid for example have many uses outside of exploding. A primary way to test if one has made such a chemical would be to test a deflagration in minute quantities. I recall several important chemical salts are made from TNT as well.
There is nothing to be done for the misguided of the world, simply carry on.

[Edited on 17-2-2011 by Regolith]

The WiZard is In - 16-2-2011 at 16:50

Quote: Originally posted by Regolith

As a footnote I mention that certain "explosives", Picric Acid for example have many uses outside of exploding.

The ever useful Merck Index of
Chemicals and Drugs notes:

Med. Use: Topically as antiseptic, astringent and stimulant for epithelizatrion.

Formerly intern. as anthelmintic.

Human toxicity: Local or generalized allergic reactions may occur
following topical use. Ingestion or prercutaneous absorption may
cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, oliguria, anuria,
yellow staining of skin (not icterus), pruritus, skin eruptions,
stupor, convulsions, death.

Picric acid was used in what woman sit on!! A box of vaginal PA
suppositories was offered for sale on eBay a few months [now years] ago.

It's going to be hard to find amateur experimenter(s) for the above me thinks.

I remember in my long lost youth buying PA based burn ointment.

PA was used for a bunch of years as a yellow dye before anyone
noticed it was an effective explosive.

PA is used in labs to clean brass sieve screens., &c.

peach - 16-2-2011 at 19:00

Quote: Originally posted by madscientist

There may be no real point in making PETN. But is there a real point in making SO? Or HF?

Yes, there is. The latter two can be used for a lot of other things.

PETN is mainly useful for blowing things up. And I knew this was how the discussion was going to go.

The energetics forum is filled with posts about making illegal explosives.

That is directly analogous to having a forum separate from the organics for 'Drug synthesis'. The discussion of making illegal explosives has been singled out and given it's own forum, over something as basic as inorganics.

For instance, I quickly look through the posts and find;

Quote:

nitroglycerin

Hi guys, I'm gonna make some nitroglycerin for the first time. I've got only 65-70% concentrated HNO3 and 96-98% concentrated H2SO4. In the megalomania's procedure they use 98% HNO3 and 98% H2SO4 in a 2:3 ratio. I wanna know if using a nitrating mixture with a different ratio of HNO3/H2SO4 I will be able to get successfully some NG. If yes what ratio of HNO3/H2SO4 should I use (with 65-70% HNO3)? Thanks for your answers

Now let me give an analogy

Quote:

Hi, I'd like to make some drugs following messedup's guide. Am I going to be able to use ... brand of cough medicine? How should I extract it and what ratio of iodine to phosphorus should I use?

Why is that tolerated, let alone singled out as a topic worthy of it's own forum? A direct admission to producing things that are illegal, and clearly going towards an illegal activity, provided it's an explosive?

hkparker - 16-2-2011 at 19:56

@Peach I agree that some of the talk in energetics is useless, but I dont think we should be equating illegality with meaning it shouldn't be discussed or done. If producing iodine, phosphorus, SO3 or HF was illegal yet someone here a had a legitimate use for any of those then I dont think their creation should be discouraged regardless of their legal state. And the same should apply to energetics, if someone has a good use for picric acid, or even TNT, theres no need for us to throw that out. That being said we should take the same approach to energetics as organics, and at the moment it seems like we do. Posts asking for drugs are thrown out just like the obvious kewls asking for "recipes". From what I've been told the people at RougeSci thought of us as hard asses when it came to the matter, and I think thats good, because we dont want our energetics section to have the same reputation as RougheSci...

Anyway... Regolith has it spot on in the end. Censorship wont stop people like the late phone from blowing something up.

peach - 16-2-2011 at 20:26

Producing those things is not illegal. And there are many legitimate uses for them.

Producing explosives is illegal, and there are essentially no legitimate uses for them. No one on this board has a license to handle high explosives, and no one is using them for mining. You can not blur it into a spectrum with the people making things like SO3 to make sulphuric acid.

I would consider the quote I made above, from an actual thread starting post with 12 pages of replies in the energetics, asking for hand in hand guidance in producing illegal material for an illegal activity.

Other forums use this one as a reference. As for censorship, that kind of discussion would not be tolerated at that level if it were about drugs. Not only is it tolerated, it is given it's own forum.

a_bab - 17-2-2011 at 02:16

There's quite a difference from producing some HE and loosing a finger in the process, or making meth (with a considerable risk of blowing up due to solvent vapors)

Generally speaking, when some poor soul makes the news with "booming" incident the whole story is seen rather lightly compared to a meth lab, unless it's a clear terrorism case, which is not 99% or more. The reason for that is the profile: young, reckless and ignorant. The 'net is filled with "recipes".

With dopes, it's a different matter for several reasons:
- we are dealing with a business. Government hates when someone eludes taxes
- there's an important (negative) impact concerning the population ("meth epidemic" documentary anyone?)
- it's seen as a very "unmoral" thing to do. Making money out of other's destroyed lives. I mean, meth is really bad. It can ruin lives and it mostly does. As most of the drugs do. Dope heads please shut up.

Also, I *somehow* have the impression that while this site is certainly monitored, all these HE experiments are nothing to what a blatant synth or a detailed guide of meth cooking, right in the "prepublication" section would attract.

To my sadness there many members here with a genuine attraction for stoning themselves. Members with a genuine interest in chemistry, and undoubtedly a good knowledge. Some may get trapped by the illusion of money made by their "skills". To me, this is pretty much like making an infernal device and selling it to someone you don't know, but knowing it will be put to a "proper" use. Highly immoral, and with a very high potential of landing your ass in jail for so many years you'll become a wreck.

I for one also started some 20 years ago with noisy experiments, but I grew up in the mean time. While I must confess I did some reckless things for sure, I still having and enjoying all my fingers. Thinking back, I never did such things as having an organic peroxide and a metal together, or lighting up a fuse stuck in a fuse sensitive mix in amounts enough to blow my head off. All this using common sense; there was no literature/Internet back then. These aforementioned cases are probably just natural selection acting I guess.

Drugs are really bad, and the energetics are pretty much covered anyway. Questions as "I'm gonna make some NG" should be deleted right away, but that's me.

I'm (still) reading this forum as there are some notable achievements for home chemistry such as SO3 synth, Pok's K metal, Len's well documented synths, Engager's exotic compounds starting from "sand and lye" and others. There are also the WiZ long citations I like as well. But it's all just intellectual masturbation if you wish, as due to some (new) factors in my life chances are I'll never be able to experiment (the last experiment was like 10 years ago anyway).

But apart from that, I feel like when I open the organics forum there are lots of questions related to dopes (albeit indirectly, but still). The HE section as noted is getting cluttered with the same stupid questions, again and again.

The last thing I'd like to see would be a dope section. I've seen enough already and my hypertension gets worse when I read stupid dope related statements, made by dope addicts.

Magic Muzzlet - 17-2-2011 at 08:50

Drugs are not bad. It is up to the person who has "drugs" in their possession to use them wisely or not use them at all. There will always be motherfuckers making drugs of abuse solely for money, you can never take away the human nature of greed. There should not be a section for the synthesis of psychoactives, that would be stupid given this is an amateur science forum. What type of picture would that paint, anyway I don't really think that is what is being said here.
Explosives can be fun and exciting, just as some drugs can be. It is nearly the same thing, both are illegal but can be highly entertaining, and dangerous in large amounts.
I think by reading your post it's like when you think drugs, you think "dope" which I don't know maybe that means meth or heroin for you. There is a myriad of drugs that can be made that aren't illegal and can be fun, but aren't addictive and possibly have no interest to general public, other than psychedelic users which for the most part go about things in a smarter way than the standard meth head.
Blatant questions about making MDMA and related are usually removed unless they are discussed in a scientific manner, which is not very often. I believe blatant questions about any explosives should be treated the same way, it only makes sense.
Also, not all drugs have a purpose of stoning the user. I'm going to assume you are against drug use, based on your post, but there are many psychedelics that people use because it actually helps them in their lives. I use psychedelic drugs, and I would never have it any other way. They have shown me so much and changed me into a BETTER person.
Now, I guess I can only say that I think the energetics should be very tightly controlled, peoples questions showing that they only want to produce a bang should be removed promptly, likewise for those making any sort of drug with the sole intent of profit.

hiperion42 - 18-2-2011 at 12:06

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

He's 25 years old and still living with mom. Can't expect much from this flavor of kule.

When the negative entropic effects of leveling out oil extraction
become more and more apparent increasing numbers of people
will return home or enter into new forms of living together.

entropy51 - 18-2-2011 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by hiperion42

... increasing numbers of people will return home or enter into new forms of living together.

Or maybe just get a job and a life of their own??

Rosco Bodine - 18-2-2011 at 14:05

Control freaks should turn their attention to the suns activity, recognizing
it has an output that is not fixed and constant so it should be regulated.
Given enough time they may find a way, but until then, for a good long while,
it should keep those ambitious children occupied and out of everyone elses hair ......

And if the time does come for the regulation of the sun to commence,
then adults should step in and say "sorry you can't do that without a
note from your mommy."