Sciencemadness Discussion Board

60% nitric acid in Germany by filling paper work - should I try and buy it or not?

Draeger - 14-4-2020 at 11:33

I found an offer from a company in Germany. Though, I don't know if it would be overly suspicious to buy it, especially since I just bought concentrated sulfuric acid which is also mentioned in the explosive precursor law, as well as a distillation setup.

Are my worries paranoid? Should I buy it or not?

woelen - 14-4-2020 at 12:48

If you don't have a license, you simply should not buy it, regardless of whether you have purchased H2SO4 before or not.
The company violates the law and can get in deep trouble for selling to the general public, but you as a buyer also violate the law.

If you really want to do some experiments with HNO3, buy a decent amount of H2SO4 (still available up to somewhere in 2021 and still allowed to possess for 18 months after that date as far as I know). Then you buy some NaNO3 or KNO3 and distill the acid yourself (you already have a distillation setup). I also work in that way. I occasionally make small quantities of HNO3 (25 to 50 ml or so and use that in small-scale experiments) from other legal chemicals. It is somewhat inconvenient, but if you only work at a small scale as I do (mostly test tube scale, sometimes a few tens of grams in certain syntheses), then you can live with the inconvenience.

karlos³ - 14-4-2020 at 12:50

Just buy it OTC at the cannabis grow shop...

Draeger - 14-4-2020 at 13:03

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
If you don't have a license, you simply should not buy it, regardless of whether you have purchased H2SO4 before or not.
The company violates the law and can get in deep trouble for selling to the general public, but you as a buyer also violate the law.

If you really want to do some experiments with HNO3, buy a decent amount of H2SO4 (still available up to somewhere in 2021 and still allowed to possess for 18 months after that date as far as I know). Then you buy some NaNO3 or KNO3 and distill the acid yourself (you already have a distillation setup). I also work in that way. I occasionally make small quantities of HNO3 (25 to 50 ml or so and use that in small-scale experiments) from other legal chemicals. It is somewhat inconvenient, but if you only work at a small scale as I do (mostly test tube scale, sometimes a few tens of grams in certain syntheses), then you can live with the inconvenience.

I didn't actually expect a company to sell something illegally. I guess I am just too optimistic about the laws of my country sometimes, and also naive. Or just generally too tired to really think about it. Whatever the case, next time I'll pay more attention.

dawt - 14-4-2020 at 13:14

Owning, making and using HNO3 > 3 % is currently illegal in the EU due to Regulation (EC) No 98/2013. However, it'll be replaced by Regulation (EU) 2019/1148 on February 1st 2021, and posession and use (though not purchasing or making) will become legal again for 12 months due to bad wording of the document. So if you happen to get in trouble for HNO3, remember: You legally aquired it before it became illegal in 2016.

Edit: Here's the wording of Article 23 that legalises all the compounds that were banned according to the old regulation for 12 months:
Quote:

5. Notwithstanding Article 5(1), the possession, introduction and use by members of the general public of restricted explosives precursors that were legally acquired before 1 February 2021 shall be allowed until 2 February 2022.


[Edited on 2020-4-15 by dawt]

BJ68 - 15-4-2020 at 22:01

The problem or better sticking point in Germany is the fact (for my knowledge) there is no explizit german law, which defines penalties for the seller and the buyer. Even so far I know there is no general article in the
- ChemG https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemg/
- ChemVerbotsV https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemverbotsv_2017/
- ChemSanktionsV https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemsanktionsv/index.html

There was a revision of the ChemVerbotsV, because of REACH and CLP and in the explanation, they say follwoing phrase for the 98/2013 regulation:
[...] werden die bisherigen Regelungen mit Rücksicht auf den Zeitbedarf einer vom Bundesministerium des Innern vorbereiteten Durchführungsrechtsetzung zur Verordnung (EU) Nr. 98/2013 übergangsweise noch bis zum 31. Dezember 2018 fortgeführt, um in dieser Zeit eine Absenkung bestehender Schutzstandards
zu vermeiden.[...]
Source: Page 4 in https://www.bmu.de/fileadmin/Daten_BMU/Download_PDF/Gesetze/...

This Durchführungsrechtsetzung was not done until now.....if you search at https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/volltextsuche.html für "Salpetersäure" you will find no article which forbids the selling and use of it and more important specified range of sentences in the local law.

It can be that this is a case for "Nulla poena sine lege" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nulla_poena_sine_lege but even if yes, before that complex, there are investigative actions, which will be done e.g. search warrants....

Disclaimer: This is so far I know, it can be that there is or are a general §§, which make the penalization of the seller and buyer possible....or can interpreted for punishment, so if somebody know more or think there are §§ in the german laws what used for that please inform me....



bj68

Fulmen - 16-4-2020 at 00:42

My 0.02$: Legally dubious transactions should be done in person, paid in cash.

I finally got my hands on some more battery acid this week. I did find one shop that seemed willing to sell me 25l, but that's a little more than I needed (of dilute acid that is). So I stopped by the local battery experts and asked, but got a no. New rules, not legal. He then said you should only refill water, which started a discussion about proper maintenance of old, sulfated deep cycle batteries (I said I had a cabin with a few hundred amp-hours of batteries).

5 minutes later I walked out with 3liters, more than enough for my anodizing project.

NaK - 19-4-2020 at 12:20

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
The problem or better sticking point in Germany is the fact (for my knowledge) there is no explizit german law, which defines penalties for the seller and the buyer. Even so far I know there is no general article in the
- ChemG https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemg/
- ChemVerbotsV https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemverbotsv_2017/
- ChemSanktionsV https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemsanktionsv/index.html

There was a revision of the ChemVerbotsV, because of REACH and CLP and in the explanation, they say follwoing phrase for the 98/2013 regulation:
[...] werden die bisherigen Regelungen mit Rücksicht auf den Zeitbedarf einer vom Bundesministerium des Innern vorbereiteten Durchführungsrechtsetzung zur Verordnung (EU) Nr. 98/2013 übergangsweise noch bis zum 31. Dezember 2018 fortgeführt, um in dieser Zeit eine Absenkung bestehender Schutzstandards
zu vermeiden.[...]
Source: Page 4 in https://www.bmu.de/fileadmin/Daten_BMU/Download_PDF/Gesetze/...

This Durchführungsrechtsetzung was not done until now.....if you search at https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/volltextsuche.html für "Salpetersäure" you will find no article which forbids the selling and use of it and more important specified range of sentences in the local law.

bj68



Well that is interesting, the section about nitrates, chlorates, permanganates etc was completely removed. A small window where you can get the stuff that is absolutely impractical to make, like Ca(OCl)2 and KMnO4. As after that even sulfuric acid will be restricted it's probably hoarding time

Germany did never implement the prohibition of possession so we can just hope that they won't this time

[Edited on 19-4-2020 by NaK]

[Edited on 19-4-2020 by NaK]

dawt - 19-4-2020 at 22:08
Quote:
the section about nitrates, chlorates, permanganates etc was completely removed. A small window where you can get the stuff that is absolutely impractical to make, like Ca(OCl)2 and KMnO4.


You probably still won't find a shop in Germany that'll send you potassium nitrate or permanganate in the mail, but ordering it from elsewhere was never a problem to begin with. I haven't noticed any easing of restrictions since the update of the ChemVerbotsV. Chemical suppliers just aren't taking any chances. The ban on selling CMR substances to private individuals has also been lifted, but good luck getting them from a German supplier.

BJ68 - 20-4-2020 at 00:02

Quote: Originally posted by dawt  

The ban on selling CMR substances to private individuals has also been lifted, but good luck getting them from a German supplier.



No....it has been shifted directly to REACH:
Quote:
§ 3 Verbote und Beschränkungen des Inverkehrbringens
(1) Beschränkungen des Inverkehrbringens bestimmter Stoffe, Gemische und Erzeugnisse ergeben sich insbesondere aus Artikel 67 in Verbindung mit Anhang XVII der Verordnung (EG) Nr. 1907/2006 [...](REACH)[...]

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemverbotsv_2017/__3.htm...

and in Annex XVII you will find Entry no 28, 29 and 30:
Quote:

Entry 28:
Substances which are classified as germ cell mutagen category 1A or 1B in Part 3 of Annex VI to Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008 and are listed in Appendix 3 or Appendix 4, respectively.

Entry 29:
Substances which are classified as germ cell mutagen category 1A or 1B in Part 3 of Annex VI to Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008 and are listed in Appendix 3 or Appendix 4, respectively.

Entry 30:
Substances which are classified as reproductive toxicant category 1A or 1B in Part 3 of Annex VI to Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008 and are listed in Appendix 5 or Appendix 6, respectively.

https://echa.europa.eu/de/substances-restricted-under-reach

In § 13 Straftaten https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemverbotsv_2017/__13.ht... there is no mention of §3 Abs. 1, but you will find the penalties in "§ 27 Strafvorschriften Abs. 1 Nr. 3" https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemg/__27.html (REACH = einer unmittelbar geltenden Vorschrift in Rechtsakten der Europäischen Gemeinschaften oder der Europäischen Union ) and further specified in "§ 5 Straftaten nach Artikel 67 in Verbindung mit Anhang XVII der Verordnung (EG) Nr. 1907/2006 Nr. 20" http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemsanktionsv/__5.html

So there is no lift.....for that regulations....

bj68

dawt - 20-4-2020 at 02:46

While annex XVII does contain the following restrictions:
Quote:

[CMR substances] Shall not be placed on the market, or used,

— as substances,

— as constituents of other substances, or,

— in mixtures,

for supply to the general public


Article 67 of Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 reads:
Quote:

1. A substance on its own, in a mixture or in an article, for which Annex XVII contains a restriction shall not be manufactured, placed on the market or used unless it complies with the conditions of that restriction. This shall not apply to the manufacture, placing on the market or use of a substance in scientific research and development.


From article 3:
Quote:

23. scientific research and development: means any scientific experimentation, analysis or chemical research carried out under controlled conditions in a volume less than one tonne per year;


The regulation makes no distinction between private individuals, companies or institutions. Thus, selling CMR substances to private individuals for scientific research is perfectly legal, and you'll find them available at chemical suppliers in many other EU countries. Only the sale by mail order is still banned in Germany according to § 10 ChemVerbotsV.

[Edited on 2020-4-20 by dawt]

BJ68 - 20-4-2020 at 08:24

Sorry... you and I know that there is a big difference between theory and practice...otherwise the protective purpose of this whole law-complex can be circumvented....

Remembers me at a discussion about 2000/2003 in a mushroom board (zauberpilz.com). There was a guy (Ufon) from the Netherlands who stated that in Germany the selling of fresh magic mushroom was legal, because at that time fresh magic mushrooms where classified as food in the Netherlands and if a food is legal in one country of the EU it is automatically legal in all other EU-countries...a few people tried this (selling and buying) and get nailed very badly....
Found at least a part of it: https://the-hive.archive.erowid.org/forum/showflat.pl?Cat=&a...

With your argumentation it´s the same.....I bet with you that the definition of scientific research and development what the authorities want is very different from your and my definition (would be nice it it would be different) and im "Fall des Falles" (if you get caught) the court will convict you according to the §§ in the ChemG. You can try to fight, but I have doubts if you will have success....

By the way:

In German:
https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/23036412/ppord_de.pdf...

In English:
https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/23036412/ppord_en.pdf...

Point 2 and point 3.1.
[...] In this context, “controlled conditions” can be understood to mean that procedures and measures are in place to minimise 4 or control 5 exposure and potential risks from exposure of humans and the environment to the substance.
This may include, for example, limitation of uses to qualified persons having access to the substance, or collection and disposal of waste.
[...]

sound more for a established and as business registered laboratory and not for R&D at home....


bj68

dawt - 20-4-2020 at 10:07

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
otherwise the protective purpose of this whole law-complex can be circumvented....

One purpose of REACH is to limit the exposure of your average EU citizen to harmful chemicals in household products. Limiting scientific research however is not the goal of REACH, hence the exemption in article 67. It's there for a reason.
Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
With your argumentation it´s the same.....I bet with you that the definition of scientific research and development what the authorities want is very different from your and my definition

How is that even remotely comparable? In the case you mentioned there appeared to be a conflict between EU and German law - here there very clearly is none. There is no German law banning the sale of CMR compounds, there's only a reference to REACH.
There also doesn't appear to be any difference in definition, as evidenced by the plethora of chemical suppliers in the EU freely selling these compounds to individuals. Just looking around on eBay for 5 minutes I found sellers from Portugal, Spain, France, UK, Ireland, Italy, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia selling well known CMR substances in pure form. Don't you think somebody would've noticed this was illegal in the 14 years since REACH was implemented?
Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  

Point 2 and point 3.1.
[...] In this context, “controlled conditions” can be understood to mean that procedures and measures are in place to minimise 4 or control 5 exposure and potential risks from exposure of humans and the environment to the substance.
This may include, for example, limitation of uses to qualified persons having access to the substance, or collection and disposal of waste.
[...]

sound more for a established and as business registered laboratory and not for R&D at home....

This sounds more like things home chemists should be doing anyway.

Edit: Fun fact! German Borax sellers on eBay uniformly justify selling only to businesses by citing "§ 2 Absatz 5 Satz 2 der Chemikalien-Verbotsverordnung" ... A regulation which does not exist. § 2 Absatz 5 Nummer 2 did however exist in the old ChemVerbotsV but that hasn't been relevant in 3 years. Just goes to show that German chemical suppliers aren't up to date with the current legislation. (German companies of course are still banned from shipping CMR substances to individuals, but that's a completely different §)

[Edited on 2020-4-20 by dawt]

BJ68 - 20-4-2020 at 20:23

a) Please read:
https://mobil.bfr.bund.de/cm/343/ueberwachung-der-inverkehrb...

Okay it´s from 2016, but they mentioned e.g. Borax here....and they are working on it: "Der "Leitfaden Gute Internetpraxis für den Chemikalienhandel" befindet sich derzeit in der Überarbeitung." https://www.blac.de/Publikationen.html

b) Little bit newer: https://www.blac.de/documents/blac_bericht_muep_170715_15039...
At page 4 you find:
[...]Chemikalien, übergreifendgeregelt durch:
o Verordnung (EG) Nr. 1907/2006 (REACH)
o Verordnung (EG) Nr. 1272/2008 (CLP)
[...]
At page 9:
[...]
Ständige Überprüfung von Internetangeboten folgender Stoffe / Produkte:
[...]
Stoffe und Gemische die mit den Risikosätzen R 40, 62, 63, 68 gekennzeichnet sind
[...]

c) https://www.vis.bayern.de/produktsicherheit/ueberwachung/che...


And that you find seller on ebay is no proof that selling or even buying is legal....if you report them, there offer will be deleted.....

bj68

dawt - 20-4-2020 at 21:48

First two sources are actually from pre-2017, but that last one does in fact simply equate "general public" with private individuals and makes no mention of the exemption. Mostly, I suspect, because it's simply not an issue that's on anyone's radar. I mean we've both seen the EU ban all sorts of chemicals as explosive precursors because there's "no legitimate use", and we didn't even get an honorable mention in 200 pages of impact assessment.

NaK - 21-4-2020 at 11:38

well i already found a german seller for permanganates, as I have no use for it right now I will leave it for now and avoid the papertrail. Maybe in the future though...

Another thing to mention is that you can pose a risk worth investigating in the eyes of the authorities even if you buy perfectly legal substances, especially certain combinations. So being a bit smart about that is probably worth it. I would still make HNO3 and KClO3 myself rather than buying it as they have some stereotypes attached and they're pretty easy to make. You never know what the seller sells in the future.

BJ68 Except for CMR that are not sold anyway, at least not that I would be aware of I don't really understand what you are trying to tell us here. German justice system is based on laws not on some random websites as far as I know. I really searched thoroughly but the section from the 2013 regulation is just not in the law. Maybe you know a law I'm not aware of?

I find the point about the mushrooms the strangest and it seems like you may have had too much of them recently.

BJ68 - 21-4-2020 at 13:00

Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
German justice system is based on laws not on some random websites as far as I know. I really searched thoroughly but the section from the 2013 regulation is just not in the law. Maybe you know a law I'm not aware of?


The 2013 regulation is until now not worked out in German law....
But please can you give me the links to the "random websites" which I mentioned, because I think my links are valid pages of german authorities....
Quote:

I find the point about the mushrooms the strangest and it seems like you may have had too much of them recently.


LOL it was a example of somebody who had though, he can use EU-regulations to fool authorities in Germany (had a nice talk with a drug investigator at the Entheovision 2 in Berlin over that topic) and you can be sure that I do not have to much from them recently.....

bj68

NaK - 21-4-2020 at 14:24

I would argue that exactly the opposite is the case: German law is over EU regulations.

At least in Germany there were never penalties for the buyer so this is more about what sellers are legit anyways and which ones will get you raided. I get most of the other stuff from Poland and Latvia which is also a risk but probably lower than trying to buy it locally.

The links are alright but not law. They were all written before they missed to implement 2013 before the other laws ran out. Still looking at other countries Germany is pretty eu compliant. Pretty safe to say they never implemented any of this crap in the UK.
Why do they get legal shipping of toxic substances and buying formaldehyde on ebay??

CMR substances are still banned by ChemVerbotsV as they are still in table II. They still are not allowed to be shipped
[Edited on 21-4-2020 by NaK]

[Edited on 21-4-2020 by NaK]

[Edited on 21-4-2020 by NaK]

BJ68 - 22-4-2020 at 03:05

Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
I would argue that exactly the opposite is the case: German law is over EU regulations.


Not in the case of the REACH Regulation....

If you can read german please read

a) §27 Absatz 1 Nr. 3 in https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemg/__27.html

and

b) §5 complete http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemsanktionsv/__5.html
Quote:
At least in Germany there were never penalties for the buyer so this is more about what sellers...


You know the meaning of the word "verwendet" which you find in many numbers of the §5 ChemSanktionsV see Point b)?

bj68