Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Keeping OTC chemicals OTC and bringing back home chemistry

cnidocyte - 13-2-2011 at 11:35

My local pharmacist tells me that a supplier that used to supply generic chemicals no longer supplies them because there isn't a demand for them anymore. I heard the same thing from plenty of pharmacies. In one pharmacy I bought the last kilo of KMnO4 that was lying in the storage room for god knows how long. I went back for more one day the pharmacist told me he'd order it in for me but when I came back he said his supplier no longer supplies it. This bullshit isn't restricted to pharmacies, its happening in supermarkets, hardware shops and various other good sources of OTC chemicals. Things are becoming more of a pain in the ass for the chemistry hobbyist every day. What can we do to reverse this trend? On a small scale I get people in my chemistry course interested in home chemistry and help them setup their own labs and although this is a start, I'm trying to think up some projects that will get people into home chemistry on a mass scale. With enough of us we can devise strategies to reverse this trend in chemicals becoming harder to get OTC. I'm way too sleep deprived to go into this in detail now but I'm cooking up big, elaborate strategy to do my part to bring back home chemistry.

bbartlog - 13-2-2011 at 19:08

The future belongs to the internet and direct mail order, in my opinion. Or specialty shops.
In many cases it has nothing to do with chemophobia per se, but instead is just what you saw: not enough interest. In combination with this you have the fact that a lot of manufacturers are constantly trying to market premium products (i.e. those with additives), which, being adulterated, are much less useful to the hobby chemist. Just recently someone posted here about running the haloform reaction using Chlorox Pro Results bleach, which turns out not to be just sodium hypochlorite (luckily they do still sell the plain variety). Similarly a lot of ammonia cleaners have other stuff in them (scents or surfactants), and so on. Fertilizers are usually sold as a blend, 12-12-12 NPK or w/e, rather than as straight nitrate or urea or what have you.

Melgar - 18-2-2011 at 07:19

Yeah, plus a lot of stores don't want the liability of selling dangerous chemicals. Big chain stores never seem to sell H2SO4 drain opener, although you can still find it at the small ones that aren't quite as juicy targets for lawyers. Speaking of which, I'm finding I hate how lawyers basically control the whole US.

I agree that mail-order chemicals are probably the future, but it does seem to make getting anything with shipping restrictions ridiculously difficult.

Honestly, I think chemistry is making a comeback, but I think it's because internet guides are dissemenating the procedures for making explosives and drugs. Still, stuff like youtube videos of homemade explosives and rockets and other pyrotechnics are making chemistry way cooler than most of what we know from high school. I mean, face it, the exciting stuff is what draws people.

some advice on hard to get chems

pip - 5-3-2011 at 07:29

Ordering online for a lot of chemicals can be a panic attack waiting to happen if your ordering anything questionable and it seems that more and more chemicals are becoming "questionable". I would suggest figuring out what you are interested the most in and "break down" what your gonna need and order everything not questionable first that way if you get a not so friendly knock on the door your not just standing there with 1 "bad" chemical. Also no chemical is unobtainable just hard to find.

My personal experience is when I ordered AA I never got the knock but I was convinced that it was coming due to its notorious use. I made sure I had my full distillation setup already, methanol, pet ether, and cannabis resin (I have a MMJ card) before even ordering that way I could show that I had a legitimate use and to make my intent perfectly clear as to what I wanted to use it for. Also don't think the police if they came would care about the other chems that prove what your trying to do they don't care, just shut up and have your lawyer do the talking.

mr.crow - 5-3-2011 at 21:39

MMJ cards let you synthesize cannabinoids? I believe MMJ is still illegal under federal law but not state law in the States. If the feds show up you're still in trouble. Showing them your whole chemistry setup also seems like a bad idea (unless they ask). Under the radar.

I believe its making a comeback too. The internet used to be all the drugs/explosives in the 90s and 00s with the hive, rhodium and megalomaniac. Now Science Madness and Youtube videos are all about legitimate experiments :)

pip - 7-3-2011 at 06:01

not so much synthesize, more like possess and preserve. I can concentrate and preserve and as far as feds, I'm not worried, too much work for them to bust me as I don't sell and have chron's disease so I fall under obama's "if their following state law" decree.

I only mentioned it to illustrate that sometimes you have a legitimate use for a very watched chemical and ordering can be stressful but you can help alleviate some of that stress by planning ahead and making sure if needed your lawyer has enough "evidence" to prove innocent usage.

also I agree normally showing your setup is giving too much info but when you have something like AA it helps to show you can properly use and dispose without causing a "toxic" environment for the neighbors. don't forget if the cops are already there they already think your just a meth cook or the like and in my opinion having proper equipment and being knowledgeable about what your doing is your only chance of being treated with respect.

Bot0nist - 7-3-2011 at 07:11

I agree with pip. I wouldn't want to just give a tour of my workshop to LE, but if there asking, it's because they are suspecting you of drug related activities 9 times out of 10 IMO.

I get stressed when I just order NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub>, let alone AA. To alleviate my stress a little, I make sure to keep a clean and professional looking lab area. Neat and tidy with a fire extinguisher, all chems labeled with a MSDS folder in a fire cabinet. All small amounts of almost everything, and a reasonable use for anything that I think they may jump on. I even went as far to put up some cheesy high school chemistry posters ( periodic table, safety is our goal, ect.)

I was questioned once at my old residence by LE about some procedures that my neighbor saw me doing outside (nitrating cellulose). I showed them my setup for tooling mini-rockets and stars, and a few already constructed plasma cutter fountains and then they seemed pretty board. They warned me about the legality of certain fireworks in this state and to be conscious of forest fire weather. Never heard from them again after that.:D

madscientist - 7-3-2011 at 07:27

Quote:
not so much synthesize, more like possess and preserve. I can concentrate and preserve and as far as feds, I'm not worried, too much work for them to bust me as I don't sell and have chron's disease so I fall under obama's "if their following state law" decree.


Were you planning on acetylating THC? If so, please be careful - state medical marijuana laws are easily subverted by the authorities, who rarely have much respect for patients. For example, in Michigan, the law states that the marijuana must be grown in an enclosed facility. The courts and the police are interpreting this literally - someone is now facing felony manufacture charges for growing in a locked outdoor facility with an open top. The judge ruled that this did not constitute an "enclosure." I fear they may find similar technicalities to "justify" jailing someone like you. A chemically transformed product is probably not explicitly protected under state law, which would leave it to fall under the criminal statutes.

Also, at least in Michigan, the DEA is still busting medical marijuana growers. Beware.
Quote:
I was questioned once at my old residence by LE about some procedures that my neighbor saw me doing outside (nitrating cellulose). I showed them my setup for tooling mini-rockets and stars, and a few already constructed plasma cutter fountains and then they seemed pretty board. They warned me about the legality of certain fireworks in this state and to be conscious of forest fire weather. Never heard from them again after that.:D


You're lucky. Someone in my area was charged with felony manufacture of an explosive device for throwing dry ice in a 2L bottle.

Never talk to the police! It is impossible to talk your way out of trouble; you can only dig yourself deeper. Calmly tell them you have an attorney in the family who's always telling everyone not to talk to the police even if they didn't do anything - and leave it at that.

Bot0nist - 7-3-2011 at 08:04

Yeah, me not ever making anything go 'boom' helped with me avoiding a charge. Plus I'm a middle aged, middle class, white, home owner. I know its a shame that that has to matter, but I'm afraid it still does...

m1tanker78 - 8-3-2011 at 08:03

Quote:
Never talk to the police! It is impossible to talk your way out of trouble; you can only dig yourself deeper. Calmly tell them you have an attorney in the family who's always telling everyone not to talk to the police even if they didn't do anything - and leave it at that.


That's the best advice I've seen in this thread. The burden of proof is on THEM. If you're not violating any laws then a good lawyer will do most of the talking for you and get them off your back. The city I live in has a ban on fireworks so I try not to mess with pyrotechnics at my house. The ranch is well outside the city limits though so anything goes. Even then, I try to stay away from pyrotechnics unless it's the 4th of July or the eve of the new year. I never store any of the stuff; we use up every bit that we buy or make.

Tom