Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Stocking the Lab:OTC

Schmiddy - 10-11-2019 at 20:54

hi ya'll

I find myself wanting to learn and do more chemistry and I need some supplies.

I've broken down my supply list into 4 categories,acids,bases,solvents and reagents.

I've already started to gather some stuff and make up lists of where I can obtain the other basics.

At this phase I'm only looking for products that I can extract and purchase on a cash and carry basis. I will be looking to register a numbered company later to obtain other things.

i'm figuring that stocking up will take several months

Deathunter88 - 10-11-2019 at 21:32

Quote: Originally posted by Schmiddy  
hi ya'll

I find myself wanting to learn and do more chemistry and I need some supplies.

I've broken down my supply list into 4 categories,acids,bases,solvents and reagents.

I've already started to gather some stuff and make up lists of where I can obtain the other basics.

At this phase I'm only looking for products that I can extract and purchase on a cash and carry basis. I will be looking to register a numbered company later to obtain other things.

i'm figuring that stocking up will take several months


What's the question?

vibbzlab - 10-11-2019 at 21:43

What do you want to know

j_sum1 - 11-11-2019 at 02:51

I am going to guess the implied question is how to source useful reagents from what can be purchased OTC.
You will find some help on the wiki, although there should perhaps be a page on this question.

The problem is that there are two big variables.
The first is what constitutes a needed/useful reagent. This depends to a great extent on the kind of chemsitry you are performing and the scale at which you perform it as well as what other lab equipment and reaents you have access to.
The second is that OTC varies a lot from place to place. For example, where I live, I can buy 99.9% ethanol easily enough (it is denatured with bitrex). But finding isopropyl alcohol at less than $14 per 100mL is difficult. The situation is basically reversed in the USA. I can get NaOH off the shelf at the supermarket for next to nothing but trying to find a source of H2SO4 is difficult.

The following are major sources of OTC chemicals and what you could expect to find there. But I will leave the specifics to your own research.

Hardware store solvents -- distill solvents to get various solvents: DCM, xylene, hexanes etc
Liquor store – vodka etc can be a source of ethanol
Gardening stores -- fertilisers yield all manner of inorganics. Get good at recrystallisation. Also H2O2 from hydroponics suppliers.
Pool chemicals -- TCCA, NaDCCA, CaCl2, CuSO4, Na2S2O7, Ca(OCl)2, etc
Welders' supplies -- gases, fluxes, carbon gouging rods
Scrap metal (or get direct) -- Fe, Cu, Al, Pb, and maybe others
Pottery suppliers -- mostly good for oxides of interesting elements but you might find other really useful things.
Pharmacies -- vary a lot. I buy potassium permanganate. NileRed found concentrated lidocaine in anal lube. YMMV
Supermarkets -- lots of odd things among the cleaning products. Usually adulterated with crap but worth a look. You might find bentonite or silica gel among the kitty litter.
Automotive suppliers -- battery acid (but not here), ethylene glycol in antifreeze, heating bath oils, pump oils, other weird things
Plants -- you could do extractions of piperidine, thymol, capsasin, camphor, or all manner of things depending on what is growing in your area. Every Christmas I intend to make some indicator out of pointsettias.

With a bit of imagination and some cleverness you can synthesise a lot of things. It is a great way to learn. I can't buy bromine easily or nitric acid. I make my own. Ammonia is the same. I have milled my own Al powder (badly). FeCl3 can be sythesised. It really depends on what you want to do.

vibbzlab - 11-11-2019 at 05:31

I will post the list of all the chemicals I have in my lab, next day.

RedDwarf - 11-11-2019 at 08:16

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I am going to guess the implied question is how to source useful reagents from what can be purchased OTC.
You will find some help on the wiki, although there should perhaps be a page on this question.




If you are going to do a page on this question it needs to be split by country as the legal/regulatory differences are so huge. That's also why if you're asking a question of this type you need to stick your (approximate) location in.

[Edited on 11-11-2019 by RedDwarf]

vibbzlab - 11-11-2019 at 08:19

Lucky that the jurisdiction here is loose on chemical supply and stuff. I can get whatever I want.

Schmiddy - 11-11-2019 at 08:51

Sorry I got to making lists and looking stuff up and got thoroughly distracted.

I'm in Canada so I'm not in a hyper nanny state and can get the basics but some things are deliberately made hard to get but that slows down and stops only the lazy and ignorant.

As I got to thinking that some in the begining I should gather up the most useful things first as they will be used in reactions for more reagents as well and then buy reagents for specific reactions as needed to build up the collection.

I good supply of ethanol,methanol,acetone,,sulfuric acid,sodium hydroxide,etc can be had straight off the shelf locally for cash in hand and are things I can see myself using frequently and in larger amounts. i have some on hand but not much.

other things I would like it appears I'll have to order and have shipped to me but I'm a mighty resourceful squirrel
and extracting specific chemicals from consumer products is also proving viable.

I am perusing Youtube for inspiration and sources.
It appears that youtubers Nilered and Nurdrage are both in Canada like me.

so I expect that most of their videos will be doable for me as I will have access to the same
chemicals although I need some more glassware I have the basics of fractional vacuum distillation kit,sep funnel
and buchner funnel and for the purposes of isolation and purification of useful chemicals those three will get me miles.




Schmiddy - 11-11-2019 at 10:16

as far as legality of buying chemicals I think it's only the restricted big 8 from on the natural resources list and it appears they can all be made from OTC components

vibbzlab - 11-11-2019 at 17:40

Do check out my post on the list of chemicals I have. I've posted a thread on it

Schmiddy - 12-11-2019 at 12:20

Now I do have a question

What is advisable for a storage,I would like to standardize my chemicals and not have them in randomc conatiners

I'm thinking amber glass bottle in 250ml and 500ml sizes with phenolic caps for liquids and solvents and HDPE jugs or tins for larger amounts.

and I think white HDPE bottles for most of my powders like bases ,acids and reagents

something like this

https://www.uline.ca/BL_2608/Packer-Bottles?keywords=hdpe+bo...

along with some smaller glass jars like this

https://www.uline.ca/BL_8199/Straight-Sided-Glass-Jars?keywo...


I figure most almost everything I will come across can be stored in glass or hdpe
I doubt I will get them from Uline but we'll see

vibbzlab - 12-11-2019 at 17:34

I am doing most of the stuff in small scale so I bought many 50-100ml bottles HDPE ones and
For liquids I got some homeopathic medicine dram bottles which are pretty cheap and useful

clearly_not_atara - 12-11-2019 at 17:53

Food: Brewing stores often have potassium bicarbonate and tartaric acid, used to adjust the flavor of wine. Citric acid powder is sold in bags at some Indian food stores.

Cosmetics: Some nail polish removers contain propylene carbonate; artificial nail remover (aka nail glue remover) often contains acetonitrile.

Plastic: Methyl methacrylate can bee had by depolymerizing PMMA.

Solvents: Some hardware stores stock dimethyl carbonate (!) as a cleaning solvent or paint thinner; this can be extremely useful.

Cement: Portland cement contains calcium oxide, but due to it... being cement... is not very useful as a base. However, sometimes you will find "hydrated lime" in the cement or garden aisle at a hardware store; this is calcium hydroxide, which is very useful! In particular, calcium hydroxide helps make KOH from K2CO3:

Ca(OH)2 (aq) + K2CO3 (aq) >> CaCO3 (s) + 2 KOH (aq)

Schmiddy - 12-11-2019 at 19:09

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
Food: Brewing stores often have potassium bicarbonate and tartaric acid, used to adjust the flavor of wine. Citric acid powder is sold in bags at some Indian food stores.

Cosmetics: Some nail polish removers contain propylene carbonate; artificial nail remover (aka nail glue remover) often contains acetonitrile.

Plastic: Methyl methacrylate can bee had by depolymerizing PMMA.

Solvents: Some hardware stores stock dimethyl carbonate (!) as a cleaning solvent or paint thinner; this can be extremely useful.

Cement: Portland cement contains calcium oxide, but due to it... being cement... is not very useful as a base. However, sometimes you will find "hydrated lime" in the cement or garden aisle at a hardware store; this is calcium hydroxide, which is very useful! In particular, calcium hydroxide helps make KOH from K2CO3:

Ca(OH)2 (aq) + K2CO3 (aq) >> CaCO3 (s) + 2 KOH (aq)



that's excellent info,thank you.

j_sum1 - 12-11-2019 at 21:24

Quote: Originally posted by vibbzlab  
I am doing most of the stuff in small scale so I bought many 50-100ml bottles HDPE ones and
For liquids I got some homeopathic medicine dram bottles which are pretty cheap and useful

The bottles are worth a lot more than the contents.

vibbzlab - 12-11-2019 at 21:33

Nah I got them for 7usd

ave369 - 12-11-2019 at 22:19

Is your source of sulfuric acid concentrated, or it is just battery acid?

vibbzlab - 12-11-2019 at 22:49

I have 98% Sulfuric aci

B(a)P - 13-11-2019 at 03:35

Schmiddy, are you an Australian in Canada, or have our beverage sizings made it to the northern hemisphere?
Or does Schmiddy have some other Canadian meaning that a poor southern hemispherian convict like me does not understand?

Schmiddy - 13-11-2019 at 07:25

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
Schmiddy, are you an Australian in Canada, or have our beverage sizings made it to the northern hemisphere?
Or does Schmiddy have some other Canadian meaning that a poor southern hemispherian convict like me does not understand?


I'm a canadian in Canada and the slang for alcoholic beverage sizes made it it Canada but is a matter unrelated.

I thought those were british terms but I learnt different today



[Edited on 13-11-2019 by Schmiddy]

chemist1243 - 21-11-2019 at 13:05

im gonna assume that your asking about what you would need to stock up on.

get sulfuric acid(liquid fire, santeen. used in drain cleaner), hydrochloric acid(pool acid, also called muriatic acid), sodium hydroxide(also used as drain cleaner, make sure to not get the liquid stuff. it should be 100% pure lye), pottasium nitrate(found in spectracide stump remover, you can make nitric acid with this), acetone(paint thinner), naphtha(paint thinner), diethyl ether(found in starting fluid, ussually mixed with heptane and dichloromethane), ethanol(try to get something like everclear grain alcohol, dont get whiskey or rum), calcium hypochlorite(pool shock), sodium hypochlorite(bleach), ammonia hydroxide solution(found as cleaning ammonia), distilled water(because most things in chemistry require water need distilled water to avoid chlorine ions in tap water), toluene(paint thinner), BAKING SODA(to clean up any acid spills), methnol(found in the brand HEET, used to remove water from engines)

that should be enough to do a few things, just chemicals you need for alot of reactions. specific reactions will need more specific chemicals, so youll just have to order those. make sure to get around a gallon of each chemical listed here, and make sure to really reaserch storage. most of these should not be stored ANYWHERE near eachother, so you really need to find out how to store and handel this stuff.


remember, most reactions need at least one of the materials i listed, weather it be as a caltylist or a solvent, youll probably need one of these. the main reactants and procedure will completely depend on what your trying to make, so these will definatly not be able to do ALL reactions, but will be usefull for very many.

karlos³ - 21-11-2019 at 14:24

Don't forget about oxone, pool supplies, one of the best and cheap oxidants available!
Also, it is often found to be pure(minus degradation, but the price values to use it in extent anyways).

B(a)P - 22-11-2019 at 02:50

In Oz you can get reasonable quality (not AR) MEK and 98% H2SO4 at plumbing supply
stores.

Schmiddy - 22-11-2019 at 09:03

Quote: Originally posted by chemist1243  
im gonna assume that your asking about what you would need to stock up on.

get sulfuric acid(liquid fire, santeen. used in drain cleaner), hydrochloric acid(pool acid, also called muriatic acid), sodium hydroxide(also used as drain cleaner, make sure to not get the liquid stuff. it should be 100% pure lye), pottasium nitrate(found in spectracide stump remover, you can make nitric acid with this), acetone(paint thinner), naphtha(paint thinner), diethyl ether(found in starting fluid, ussually mixed with heptane and dichloromethane), ethanol(try to get something like everclear grain alcohol, dont get whiskey or rum), calcium hypochlorite(pool shock), sodium hypochlorite(bleach), ammonia hydroxide solution(found as cleaning ammonia), distilled water(because most things in chemistry require water need distilled water to avoid chlorine ions in tap water), toluene(paint thinner), BAKING SODA(to clean up any acid spills), methnol(found in the brand HEET, used to remove water from engines)

that should be enough to do a few things, just chemicals you need for alot of reactions. specific reactions will need more specific chemicals, so youll just have to order those. make sure to get around a gallon of each chemical listed here, and make sure to really reaserch storage. most of these should not be stored ANYWHERE near eachother, so you really need to find out how to store and handel this stuff.


remember, most reactions need at least one of the materials i listed, weather it be as a caltylist or a solvent, youll probably need one of these. the main reactants and procedure will completely depend on what your trying to make, so these will definatly not be able to do ALL reactions, but will be usefull for very many.


yeah those are the basics I use a lot of plus isopropyl alcohol.
and having at least a gallon of each on hand makes sense for some stuff I sue more of of like methanol I keep a few gallons around.

I have decent access to a bunch of stuff real easy and with that I can make more stuff.

there's a couple of things I want that I will need to order as trying to extract them isn't cost effective or worthwhile.

I'm pretty good at handling things and have decent safety measures in place which I could improve.

I liked to get a feel for the water before I jump in as I usually I plan out what I need and a how to get it and if there is hi-temps or noxious fumes involved in synthesizing it then it's a field trip as I have a good spot for that, that is safe and doesn't bother anybody.

Some stuff you just don't want to do indoors even in a fume hood.