Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Security of reagent orders from chemical companies in this age of chemophobia, paranoia and the oppressive health and safety...

Those of us who were around as the laws were passed and then broadened to include an ever increasing number of drugs know that the laws were passed in response to the availability of the drugs.

No government agency gave a shit about ether or piperidine or cyanide until PCP use became epidemic in the 1970's. I was around and watched it happen, son. Long before your parents even started dating.

Your scenario would be that drugs are first scheduled and then the cooks say " Shit, I never thought of making that!"

The scenario was actually that the emergency rooms reported who was fvcked up on what, and the DEA responded by scheduling the stuff at the top of the list of stuff that made people crazy. That's exactly how PCP was scheduled.

Frankly I couldn't care less if everyone sits around schnockered out of his mind. But the drugs came before the laws. And the drugs are the reason that chemicals are watched.

You are entitled to your own opinions. But not your own facts.

madscientist - 12-11-2010 at 15:26

It's true - they rarely ban anything that hasn't become popular recreationally. If no one's using it, how can you run a scare campaign to gather support for scheduling?

Acid makes you jump out windows. Cocaine kills you the first time. Amphetamines rot your teeth out in a week. GHB causes most date rapes. Pot makes you grow boobs and turn gay.

Their repeated lack of honesty on newly popularized drugs suggests to me that they have always just been waiting for an excuse.

Anyway... regardless of the historical facts, the drug cooks cannot be stopped. The Drug War, however, is another story.

anotheronebitesthedust - 12-11-2010 at 15:40

Don't worry Entropy51, if I had spent 59 years believing bullshit propaganda, I probably wouldn't want to admit that it was in fact bullshit propaganda either. No one likes to admit they are dummies.

madscientist - 12-11-2010 at 15:56

I don't think that's an accurate assessment of his character. He doesn't seem care too much for the Drug War.

I believe our sole disagreement to be on the idea that to make amateur chemistry socially acceptable again we need to lash out at drug cooks.

MagicJigPipe - 12-11-2010 at 16:43

Quote:

Your scenario would be that drugs are first scheduled and then the cooks say " Shit, I never thought of making that!"

That's what you think I meant? Read more closely please. The drug producers and marketers could not have been CRIMINALS until the laws were passed. Once they became criminals and could no longer turn to the police to solve disputes, they resorted to the only thing that can settle disputes no matter who you are: their own force. This, following its natural course, leads to violence. I seriously doubt drug pushers were any more violent than any other business person before drugs were illegal (unless you're talking about the British government, for example).

What our government is really doing is saying that they prefer a bloody war over people getting high and POTENTIALLY causing an increase in disturbances. What kind of sadistic bastards make such a choice? We don't want you to feel good because we don't feel like you deserve it so we'll kill you (or destroy your life) or cause you to risk your life in order to get that good feeling.

It's fucking sick, in my opinion.

entropy51 - 12-11-2010 at 17:05

The drug producers and marketers could not have been CRIMINALS until the laws were passed.

Pardon me. Now I understand. If there were no laws, there would be no criminals. But there would still be murderers, rapists, thieves, and so on wouldn't there?

The question is not what makes people criminals, but rather "why can't we buy chemicals without getting into trouble?".

Sorry for trying to pull your rant back on topic.

entropy51 - 12-11-2010 at 17:32

What our government is really doing is saying that they prefer a bloody war over people getting high and POTENTIALLY causing an increase in disturbances. What kind of sadistic bastards make such a choice? We don't want you to feel good because we don't feel like you deserve it so we'll kill you (or destroy your life) or cause you to risk your life in order to get that good feeling.

It's fucking sick, in my opinion.

Nothing potential here dude.

When I was a young medical student I had to attend the autopsy of a 9 year old boy who was brutally stabbed to death by his young mother while she was high on PCP. I have never gotten over it.

The people who outlawed PCP performed a public service. I hope they received an award for doing so.

Someone is sick, but it was not the people who tried to get this crap off the streets.

madscientist - 12-11-2010 at 17:41

That is horrific.

However, outlawing it accomplished nothing that I'm aware of. Decades later, it's still widely available, and our beloved chemicals are not.

entropy51 - 12-11-2010 at 17:55

I respectfully disagree, madscientist.

In this area, in those days, PCP was everywhere. It was more available than marijuana. Those types of atrocities were not uncommon. Neither were ether explosions caused by manufacturers of PCP. The local branch of a major chemical supplier was closed down when they were implicated in the supply of precursors.

As far as I know, PCP is rarely encountered here nowadays. I have not heard of a PCP related murder in probably over 10 years. Something certainly had an effect.

entropy51 - 12-11-2010 at 18:00

Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust

Don't worry Entropy51, if I had spent 59 years believing bullshit propaganda, I probably wouldn't want to admit that it was in fact bullshit propaganda either. No one likes to admit they are dummies.

I don't think you know me well enough to call me a dummy, to be honest with you.

madscientist - 12-11-2010 at 18:17

PCP is on the decline, yes. It has more to do with education than enforcement though: people are realizing what a nasty drug it is, choosing not to use it, thereby removing the economic incentive to produce and push it.

It seems its usage has receded to those who don't care at all about their health. Gang members are well known for this. Because of them and their "business model," PCP is still present in urban areas, and not at all hard to find.

Evidence that it's education and not enforcement that's led to a decline in PCP usage is found in the uninterrupted high availability of less hideously unpleasant drugs, such as cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, pot, etc.

MagicJigPipe - 12-11-2010 at 19:31

Quote:

As far as I know, PCP is rarely encountered here nowadays. I have not heard of a PCP related murder in probably over 10 years. Something certainly had an effect.

Because correlation always implies causality...

You give one example, PCP. Obviously you have had some rough personal experiences with the effects of this drug (ever asked yourself if the mother would have stabbed her son anyway?) Drugs, even PCP, do not change the person on the deepest levels. Yes, it can make them mean, sadistic jerks (e.g. alcohol) but I believe it rarely causes crimes like murder wherein the person committing the crime would NEVER have even considered it before. Yes, maybe sex with ugly women, but typically not murder. It is apparent you have never "done drugs".

I also don't believe that law enforcement had much to do with the decline of PCP use. Ketamine, being similar, is still being used (although not often). Also, I believe cocaine is now at an all time high of use despite the best efforts of our officers (who, by the way, are also killed in large amounts due to this war). I just feel it is a bad sign when a government declares war on a HUGE segment of its constituency.

Why don't we just take all of those degenerate drug users and make some landfills out of them? That would surely get rid of the problem and then we could all finally live in peace.

[Edited on 11-13-2010 by MagicJigPipe]

Sedit - 12-11-2010 at 20:17

I have to disagree PCP is a drug that makes the person act like a schizophrinic and will degrade them on a deeper level. I have had experiances with it and where as I have not had any desire in the slightest to abuse it I can very well see how it could drive someone to murder someone they would not normally do so.

If someone was using this substance everyday you can bet there would be a mental decline so rapid that in a matter of a week there would be nothing left of them but psychosis. Its not hard to murder your best freind when you fully believe him to be some form of the walking dead or that in real life hes not really going to be hurt by it all. This is not your typical drug this is a complete disassociation from reality that could have some very serious consequences. Where as it may be amusing to someone with a scientific mind to walk in the shoes of a skitzo for a few hours simular to LSD generally it will take your sanity away much more permanet then LSD.

[edit]

BTW ... where yall high when you strayed this thread into a discussion on PCP? Seriously...

[Edited on 13-11-2010 by Sedit]

MagicJigPipe - 12-11-2010 at 22:49

Give evidence, please. Even anecdotal would be acceptable to me if it seems to make sense.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

Quote:

However, studies by the Drug Abuse Warning Network in the 1970s show that media reports of PCP-induced violence are greatly exaggerated and that incidents of violence were unusual and often (but not always) limited to individuals with reputations for aggression regardless of drug use.

But since some elitists don't trust Wikipedia ever, let's examine the source. Well, it's a book(?) BUT it seems to be a well respected source for this kind of information (A LOT of people reference it). Can anyone acquire this book in electronic format? One part of it is available on Springerlink but not the part that's referenced.

(A little bit about Wikipedia: Only a fool would not use Wikipedia for general information searching just because 1 out of 100 facts (arbitrary figure) might be wrong and usually you can tell if you're not completely out of touch with reality. I have gathered an unbelievable amount of knowledge from Wikipedia--perhaps even more than from school so far although it is much less systematic. In some ways I trust Wikipedia more than some of the journals I've been reading lately.)

This seems like exactly the thing people would say who lived during the time of PCP propaganda and indoctrination. I'm not saying that psychotic episodes don't happen with this drug but I suspect that entropy's and Sedit's views on this subject are greatly exaggerated because they lived during this time.

Quote:

BTW ... where yall high when you strayed this thread into a discussion on PCP? Seriously...

I'm high on life.

[Edited on 11-13-2010 by MagicJigPipe]

Sedit - 13-11-2010 at 07:54

Nope sorry but I didn't live thru this PCP time and in all honesty MJD im pretty sure we are not so far from being the same age.

My views on it come from personal experiance with the substance and I just don't feel someone could retain there sanity very long using it on a regular basis. I do believe most of the storys about it are propaganda however, like people frying there babys or jumping out of windows thinking they could fly. The mental process it gives you are slightly different then that.

I remember someone after a single use of it, following a fat woman down the street who was waring a red dress, and yelling at the top of his lungs because she thought she was a giant stawberry. That same night at almost the same exact time his girlfreind was in the house with me flipping out because she thought her head was going to expload if she didn't here this song she wanted to hear but couldn't remember what it was. For me it induced time and space distortions that are hard to explain. I remember hearing someone walking down the street that I couldn't see from such a long distance away that its not even funny. I started to question what I was hearing until that person finilly walked into my view showing me that it was distorting what I heared making the faint sounds of walking sound as though someone was beating a drum in my ear. Sitting next to someone sleeping this whole time I constantly had conversation with them thruout the night hearing there voice even though they where not awake. Looking at there face it was impossible to tell if there eyes where open or closed.

Sorry but thats all about as anecdotal as it comes since I never researched it very much at all in years.

When it boils down to it though one has to ask the question if someone would already have to be highly disturbed to abuse this substance. That could explain the incidences attributed to it.

Gary - 15-11-2010 at 12:39

Evidently, my query regarding the acquisition of lab specification reagents for legitimate amateur chemistry experimentation (intellectual entertainment) has become a discussion on illicit substances!

Sedit - 15-11-2010 at 13:24

Yeh it is kind of sick that it happens all to often around here that if the word drugs are mentioned or if the avalibility of reagents due to drug manufacturing comes into play then the threads quickly detour onto there way to deterius.

I say keep your nose clean and your experiments legal along with proper storage and worse case senerio is you recieve a visit that even though you dont really want it won't be as bad as many fear.

hissingnoise - 15-11-2010 at 13:26

If we're not taking drugs, we're talking drugs . . .

MagicJigPipe - 15-11-2010 at 14:48

I do believe your stories. One question I have is whether or not they were taking JUST PCP. I'm curious as to why ketamine doesn't have similar effects.

Sedit, do you think that, even if you abused PCP quite often, you would've been able to kill someone on purpose? I think it is VERY rare where a drug changes someone so much that they kill when they normally wouldn't even have had the tendency. Sure, lowered inhibitions can cause some crazy person to actually do it, but if that's what we're talking about then most drugs could fall into that category, ESPECIALLY alcohol. But I think what we are debating is the complete change of someone's personality (i.e. from pretty normal to baby murderer). I just don't think it happens all too often.

About the discussion of drugs:

There's nothing wrong with it. It affects EVERYONE's life (especially the laws set out to deal with drugs, IMO), and it has a great effect on the hobby we all share. It makes sense to me that something that is so important should be discussed often. This is life and death; freedom and imprisonment. Discussion of drugs and drug laws should continue just as discussion of any other relevant issue should.

quicksilver - 15-11-2010 at 14:52

Whenever you alter the thinking process of a human being there is the POTENTIAL for a tragedy. Just as when some develops "road rage" from emotional imbalances, some become so romantically jealous they commit atrocities, the apha and omega is not necessarily a chemical. PCP, sniffing hydrocarbons, etc are all disgusting (IMO) but they are not the deepest contributor of the problem of horrific acts. With each example of a disgusting thing done under the influence; there would be equally horrific things committed stone sober.

The problems of interpersonal interaction are much deeper than a simplistic answer; be it the "war on drugs" or some feelgood pop-psychology. We face a world where children have no childhood anymore, where the most narcissistic and self indulgent agenda is considered appropriate, where the mutilation of a woman's body is done to look more "attractive", where status is defined by wealth or fame rather than acts of productivity, where a witless childish idiot playing a child's game makes millions of dollars rather than a man who saves a life, where popular songs reflect theft, violence, and reducing people (women) to "bitches & "hoes". These things are not only a reality: they are EMBRACED!

We live in a wonderland of fools. Is it any wonder that the violence committed reflects that low-functioning agenda? Where marketing is the heart of politics and the goal of a elected official is to get re-elected; is it any wonder we have no real changes that alter our perspectives? Is it any wonder that we look for altered perspectives in chemicals? The world around us won't provide it as it stands. We have a whole selection of pills for depression....could it be that depression is actually the logical result of a world like this?

Maybe those people called "Depressed" are actually those who think more clearly than most? THAT would be a motherfucker.

[Edited on 15-11-2010 by quicksilver]

MagicJigPipe - 15-11-2010 at 15:06

Quote:

Maybe those people called "Depressed" are actually those who think more clearly than most? THAT would be a motherfucker.

Interesting question. I'd like to think that I think clearly but I'm certainly not depressed. I dislike the way the world and the nations are heading but I can still be happy day-to-day, overall.

[Edited on 11-15-2010 by MagicJigPipe]

entropy51 - 15-11-2010 at 15:18

Anybody not drowning in denial (not the river in Egypt) can Google "PCP" and "murder" and examine the evidence the way that real grown-up scientists do.

Sedit - 15-11-2010 at 15:22

MJD I have to ask but you don't have to answer if you wish but do you have experiance with this substance? I feel its not the normal alteration of sences or inhibition like EtOH causes but more of a complete disconnection from reality for someone thats not really trained in the effects of these substances. Iv never had the "pleasure" of seeing if any major mental decline takes place with this substance because its to harsh of a drug. But take into consideration someone who is scared of clowns as an example being high on PCP and seeing a clown. I can assure you that there is no way in hell that this meeting could end well. If that person had a firearm I would not doubt one bit for them to off the evil demonic zombie clown that was "attacking" them. Given that someone can think that a fat woman in a red dress is a giant walking strawberry I can envision someone commiting murder with ease when they normally would not think of such an act. This is just a dangerous substance because the normal suddenly become schizophrinic. Hell my uncle underwent 2 week treatment after smoking weed laced with PCP and they found him walking along side of the highway after being lost in the swamps for over a day looking for parts for his space craft.

I have never tried Ketamine and even though I would expect the effects to be simular the reports of its effects seem highly different. Given that there is a variety of NMDA receptors all with slightly different effects there is the possibility of there being hugely different effects from it.

anotheronebitesthedust - 15-11-2010 at 17:06

Quote:

We face a world where children have no childhood anymore, where the most narcissistic and self indulgent agenda is considered appropriate, where the mutilation of a woman's body is done to look more "attractive", where status is defined by wealth or fame rather than acts of productivity, where a witless childish idiot playing a child's game makes millions of dollars rather than a man who saves a life, where popular songs reflect theft, violence, and reducing people (women) to "bitches & "hoes". These things are not only a reality: they are EMBRACED!

Quicksilver it seems like you may be depressed because that sounds like a very bleak world you live in indeed. Maybe I should be more thankful I live in Canada where I see so many displays of greater human qualities, such as empathy and understanding, on a daily basis. Here's a good example of some fine Canadians who did everything possible to help out a troubled teen:
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/890684--as...

MagicJigPipe - 15-11-2010 at 23:04

Quote:

Anybody not drowning in denial (not the river in Egypt) can Google "PCP" and "murder" and examine the evidence the way that real grown-up scientists do.

Can you please move your dick switch to the 0 position?

entropy51 - 16-11-2010 at 07:17

Can you please move your dick switch to the 0 position?

Your usual level of informed scientific discourse.

You're going to catch some wierd parasitic disease swimming in Da Nile river.

quicksilver - 16-11-2010 at 14:40

Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust

You are possibly more right than wrong on that account. I'm not too sure if I would say depressed but saddened & disappointed in certain things......brother; no question!

I love my country but I certainly don't love the condition it's in.
Bleak - but not unique. One of the most disappointing things is that as I re-read my little rant; I find those things to be self evident in many places down here in the "48".

I only Thank God that I can still laugh at myself ranting away over the ills of the country on the internet.
On a serious level, the right move would be for me to shut the fuck up and make a personal difference again and again and again..... It's just that on occasion it feels like urinating on a home in flames.

[Edited on 16-11-2010 by quicksilver]

MagicJigPipe - 16-11-2010 at 15:44

But if we had 10,000 people urinating on a house fire in unison! Oh, the urea! (and cyanic acid, biuret, cyanuric acid, ammelide etc...)

I think you mean that it's like urinating on a firestorm ignited by a small nuclear weapon.

quicksilver - 17-11-2010 at 07:07

HA! You got it! But you know what would happen.....

Someone would get inflamed and brand it a pissing contest.....

IrC - 25-11-2010 at 14:22

Having been there I have to agree with Entropy. In 1970 I am in Daytona Beach getting ready to walk in to a place of music and beer. No memory of the name. Standing in line outside in front waiting to pay two bucks and get my hand rubber stamped for admission. There were over a dozen people on the street corner holding big bottles of pills asking everyone in line if they want to buy PCP. Less than a tenth had weed or acid, PCP was everywhere. One of the guys in the little group of us out partying buys and eats one. Later I noticed he was not involved in reality, sitting there like a zombie. He had been drinking beer and was soaked in piss as he could not get up to go. After a long time we finally got him moving and he started acting violent. I had known this guy for years, through many circumstances where anger or aggression should have been his response in certain situations he was as always meek and timid like Pee Wee Herman. Never before had I ever seen anger or aggression, no matter how much beer he drank. No idea how much the combo with beer added but I knew nothing about this drug other than seeing him convinced me to never find out. I assure you this guy was gentle and meek, PCP turned him into someone I had never seen in years of knowing him.

Anyway not why I came here, the author of this thread is correct all of this detracts from the subject. Rather than start a new thread I thought my question fits the thread title enough to ask here.

Recently I saw an article where they busted a bomb maker. He got 14 counts of possessing chemicals for destructive devices combined with counts for the bombs , etc.. No mention of what chemicals. I spent a while searching Cornell and what not but I am convinced they go out of their way when they write this stuff to make it impossible for people like us to know the full law. If power over us is their goal it makes sense to keep us from protecting ourselves, i.e., 'secret stuff' they can nail you for when they are throwing the book at you. I say secret as many hours of searching yields little information or lists of what chemicals are 'list' for explosives. Other than of course the usual items like the explosives themselves.

So what is the list? If I have KNO3, nitric, zinc and Al dust, etc., and they raid me like they did United Nuclear how many of my Lab chemicals are going to create 'added charges'? Not exactly all organics but I thought the question fits here.

How can I try to maintain a legal, private, amateur lab when they work to suppress the information about what they can and will use against me?

If anyone has a list of the chemicals they can now charge you for as explosive precursors please post. Not asking about nitro or RDX in the list, rather everything we need for so much chemistry not related to the dual use LE is going to go after us for. Also I do not see much in the way of an answer to Gary after two pages. While I do not use organics often it would be good if this was also covered. Possibly a thread on this site building up a list of the things we need to be cautious about would save many much time trying to answer this question. I for one cannot afford teams of lawyers to find out.

[Edited on 11-26-2010 by IrC]

Magpie - 25-11-2010 at 14:58

I have long felt that you have 2 options for this kind of behavior by LE:

1) hire the best lawyer money can buy, if you have that kind of money. This might cost you your life savings.

2) petition the ACLU to help you. Although many people don't like this group I have noticed that they will stick up for a person's civil rights and they have a lot of clout.

[Edited on 26-11-2010 by Magpie]

SelfStarter - 26-11-2010 at 22:36

I respectfully disagree, madscientist.

In this area, in those days, PCP was everywhere. It was more available than marijuana. Those types of atrocities were not uncommon. Neither were ether explosions caused by manufacturers of PCP. The local branch of a major chemical supplier was closed down when they were implicated in the supply of precursors.

As far as I know, PCP is rarely encountered here nowadays. I have not heard of a PCP related murder in probably over 10 years. Something certainly had an effect.

Entropy, your assertions about there being a rash of PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that capability.

I suggest you read this book and watch this video as they both come from an author who unlike you, has done a lot of RESEARCH on the subject.

http://reason.com/blog/2009/03/24/recently-at-reasontv-jacob...

http://www.amazon.com/Saying-Yes-Jacob-Sullum/dp/product-des...

Sedit - 26-11-2010 at 23:01

Quote: Originally posted by SelfStarter

Entropy, your assertions about there being a rash of PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that capability.

...... I don't understand....

My only reply is BULLSHIT!!!

Drugs make people violent,
Drugs make people someone they are not,
Drugs turn people into something they don't want to be.
Drugs wreak havok on the society around them.......

This is comming from ME people. Its about as unbias as it gets because I love drugs.... in the right hands.

You pott heads are convincing yourselfs that drugs are safer then they really are and they are the type of people we hear about on the news shooting up a shopping mall full of zombies....

Get it? One hit of PCP into you new age hippys brains and you would understand where im comming from, but instead go on about how its all good to ingest a substance that an analog of what is pissed out by schizophrinics.... go ahead..... then tell me drugs are great...

G'damnit

[Edited on 27-11-2010 by Sedit]

IrC - 27-11-2010 at 00:45

What Are the Effects of PCP?

From National Institute on Drug Abuse

PCP, developed in the 1950s as an intravenous surgical anesthetic, is classified as a dissociative anesthetic: Its sedative and anesthetic effects are trance-like, and patients experience a feeling of being "out of body" and detached from their environment.

PCP was used in veterinary medicine but was never approved for human use because of problems that arose during clinical studies, including delirium and extreme agitation experienced by patients emerging from anesthesia.

During the 1960s, PCP in pill form became widely abused, but the surge in illicit use receded rapidly as users became dissatisfied with the long delay between taking the drug and feeling its effects, and with the unpredictable and often violent behavior associated with its use.

Powdered PCP - known as "ozone," "rocket fuel," "love boat," "hog," "embalming fluid," or "superweed" - appeared in the 1970s. In powdered form, the drug is sprinkled on marijuana, tobacco, or parsley, then smoked, and the onset of effects is rapid. Users sometimes ingest PCP by snorting the powder or by swallowing it in tablet form. Normally a white crystalline powder, PCP is sometimes colored with water-soluble or alcohol-soluble dyes.

When snorted or smoked, PCP rapidly passes to the brain to disrupt the functioning of sites known as NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptor complexes, which are receptors for the neurotransmitter glutamate. Glutamate receptors play a major role in the perception of pain, in cognition - including learning and memory - and in emotion. In the brain, PCP also alters the actions of dopamine, a neurotransmitter responsible for the euphoria and "rush" associated with many abused drugs.

At low PCP doses (5 mg or less), physical effects include shallow, rapid breathing, increased blood pressure and heart rate, and elevated temperature. Doses of 10 mg or more cause dangerous changes in blood pressure, heart rate, and respiration, often accompanied by nausea, blurred vision, dizziness, and decreased awareness of pain.

Muscle contractions may cause uncoordinated movements and bizarre postures. When severe, the muscle contractions can result in bone fracture or in kidney damage or failure as a consequence of muscle cells breaking down. Very high doses of PCP can cause convulsions, coma, hyperthermia, and death.

PCP's effects are unpredictable. Typically, they are felt within minutes of ingestion and last for several hours. Some users report feeling the drug's effects for days. One drug-taking episode may produce feelings of detachment from reality, including distortions of space, time, and body image; another may produce hallucinations, panic, and fear. Some users report feelings of invulnerability and exaggerated strength. PCP users may become severely disoriented, violent, or suicidal.

Repeated use of PCP can result in addiction, and recent research suggests that repeated or prolonged use of PCP can cause withdrawal syndrome when drug use is stopped. Symptoms such as memory loss and depression may persist for as long as a year after a chronic user stops taking PCP.

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/lsd/f/lsd_faq05.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------
2,430,000 results google search "pcp effects", every one of them saying the same thing. SelfStarter you, and everyone as ignorant of the facts as you, are making me wretch at the thought you are all coming here claiming to be 'men of science'. Yes you know so much. Your brains are very big. Your facts come from some 'researcher' you claim has credibility? What about the two million four hundred thirty thousand pages on the internet all saying the same damn thing! Namely you are wrong.

OK I'll bite. Forget 'research'. What about experience? I saw violence and death from PCP and drugs like it in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2K's, and on until the end of flesh humans on earth. How many people have you seen die from drugs? Any? I HAVE! Not just once either.

Why don't you give up your membership here and go back to abovetopsecret where you belong and leave science to those who do not have oatmeal for brains.

Go talk to every police officer in every town for a hundred miles around you. Ask and get their real life experience stories about the violence they have had to deal with most especially from PCP, far more than nearly every other drug known. In fact likely more than every other drug they have had to deal with.

Is anyone ever going back on topic and answering poor Garry's question or not? Or mine concerning inorganic's?

[Edited on 11-27-2010 by IrC]

quicksilver - 27-11-2010 at 07:01

As I remember it the "PCP period" was about the mid 70's though the mid 80's: I remember that time quite well. The low cost of the drug made it a VERY prominent thing is inner city drug abuse areas and was sold by (mostly) lower-level street dealers, especially high numbers of "gang-types" and middle-men small weight dealers. It had a very BAD rep from the start. It was often sold infused on mint leaves and smoked. At a street dealer level it was mostly sold on a liquid level as there it could be adulterated and pathetic profits made from the sale.
Most of the drug dealers who were making money stayed away from it as the margin was low; risk just as high and it was basically seen as an "ugly" drug by those who used drugs.
I believe that it put itself out of common usage. The people who synthesized it only needed one mistaken ingestion to never want to work with it again. The groups who sought entertainment from hallucinogens shied away as it had such a strong "out of body" feel that the user didn't "feel good or enlightened": they felt like they simply couldn't think.
It was basically a very cheap inner city drug that was likened to sniffing glue, etc. The sales were generally on the level of a dollar per mint-joint & a small vial of whatever was $20; there was no money there to attract the ruthless.

I was a college-kid at the time and had NO interest in it even as experimentation for a single experience as i continually saw really bad results from it's use on almost every occasion! To reiterate; it really put itself out of business. If available today, I actually doubt it could be sold to the drug using public.
It appeared all over the nation due to it's low cost. It obviously was an easy synthesis. In the Inner city and some rural areas; it's the cheap shit that reigns as drug sales. Look at crack (freebase) which was a $5 high, PCP ($1), Meth, which also sells for a VERY small amount in various forms. And if anyone is getting close to the big Six-Oh and remembers the 1960's there was the "nickle bags" of heroin. There was always something to fill the gap of the no-money drug users.

This was the reason I saw the TV show "Breaking Bad" as SO essentially evil and destructive. It viewed chemistry in a very ugly light, it's "stars" were the idiot and the selfish, unthinking & grotesquely immature " teacher". And it's message was that chemistry at home equals narcotics; period. no one would practice chemistry outside of a professional setting for any reason other than to make drugs.
The concept of chemophobia, Was more deeply elicited by that show alone, than several major incidents in life. It piped it's fear and loathing into (perhaps) millions of homes each week.

PCP was plenty ugly alright - perhaps one of the ugliest things to come along in my memory; but I believe there will always be something to fill that void of low-level street sales. Gang members were entranced by the money made from Crack and will never give that up. Even if Crack become passe', those same "people" will find another cheap money maker from somewhere.
A person who will blindly shoot up a occupied home risking the life of an infant will never consider what harm they do. That's exactly why I believe that there really ARE some who should be kept from society and perhaps on a totally permanent basis. I simply don't buy the line that a 16yr old doesn't know what death is and should be given another chance when he is in the prime of his life.

[Edited on 27-11-2010 by quicksilver]

entropy51 - 27-11-2010 at 11:43

Quote: Originally posted by SelfStarter

You know zilch about my research, son. You think I learned everything I know on the net, like you apparently did?

I was treating these poor devils freaked out on PCP (and all the other crap you guys idolize) in big city emergency rooms before you were born.

entropy51 - 27-11-2010 at 11:50

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

I believe that it put itself out of common usage.

No it didn't, at least not in the two large east coast cities where I've lived.

It was displaced by crack cocaine,

As the number of ER cases of whacked out PCP users went down, the number of cases of crack heads went up. It was strikingly obvious to those of us looking at the tox screens.

quicksilver - 27-11-2010 at 15:06

I really do understand your passion but actually that is what I wrote in my post (contextually): that it was displaced by Crack.

IrC - 27-11-2010 at 17:26

Entropy you are always so spot on. I have to say I also agree with a point Quicksilver made about that damn show. My best friend is a state trooper who loves that show. We have arguments about it often. Hell he even kept bugging me to watch so I could see his LEO fascination with it. I did so he would shut up about it and leave me alone. On that subject at least, as I said he is my best friend in everything else. After several episodes I explained to him just what is being said here as far as how the show is instilling a public fear mindset towards people like me. He said he sees my point but he still loves the show. Of course he also never misses that biker show whatever the name of it is I forget. Hate it. Hate them both. They are destroying like a thousand cuts a day my love of creating by removing one by one every damn thing we need to build or create with.

Oh yeah I forgot QS but I agree, crack is what did it starting in the early 80's.

[Edited on 11-28-2010 by IrC]

quicksilver - 30-11-2010 at 08:35

I think it might be important for us to understand the thinking of many law enforcement types. I know that thinking quite well for many of my family (& some friends also) have been involved.
Many (not all of course) of the people drawn to law enforcement are people of view the world in harsh black and whites; & while there certainly IS Good & Evil, etc - there are some areas of gray as many of us know.

Many of those personalities are looking for a sound structure to their lives and the world around them. They may have seen or experienced things early on that made them very uncomfortable with a lack or Structure; of order to the way people behaved. This makes some people seek out structure in a very defined way. It's similar to career military folks.
It's not a shortcoming; it's simply a means to find order in a world that has very little [justice or order].

Why should a baby suffer either by the hand of man or through disease? Why should any innocent receive injustice? These are unanswerable questions and in observing them early in life; they create a feeling of discord, anxiety, anger, and fear. That is a very natural reaction. So a person in that position may seek out order and therefore a delineated "law" or set of rules become VERY attractive because they give comfort in a very uncomfortable world.

Others may seek out Religion for somewhat similar reasons. This is NOT a value judgment but simply my opinion.

Then there is a reinforcement of this as the individual observes the injustices time and again. Certain things happen at that point and some people harden their personal philosophy of world view, while others become very tired of the pain, discord, & lack of balance.

Take a moment and find out what professions have the greatest suicide rates. While the results are not startling; they are indicative of a person caught in a setting where they yearn for balance.
That may be one of the tragic flaws of the human condition: the desire to set things right.

[Edited on 30-11-2010 by quicksilver]

MagicJigPipe - 1-12-2010 at 14:43

Quote:

and all the other crap you guys idolize

Okay entropy, although I disagree with you often I still, most of the time, see your arguments as rationally coherent and I respect that.

However, things like this just rub me the wrong way. It seems like you are saying anyone who doesn't have your hardcore, anti-drug view somehow "idolizes" PCP or any other drug for that matter.

I do not idolize drugs. I do not use illegal drugs. I despise most drugs just because I don't like the way they make me feel (especially alcohol). How can you imply that I (if I am, in fact, part of "you guys") idolize drugs?

I CAN say, for example, that some might be able to use illegal drugs without doing harm to themselves or others. Rationally, I believe that is a sound argument. But I feel that your anti-drug "passion" sometimes precedes your rationallity. You might dismiss this as not true, perhaps because you don't want it to be, although it certainly is--it just has yet to be quantified in a reliable way.

Long story short: I think your emotional experiences with drugs cause you to respond irrationally without later admitting that the response was, indeed, irrational.

entropy51 - 1-12-2010 at 14:56

Since you had a bad bump on the head, I'll repeat it one more time, slowly, so that you might finally understand:

Frankly I couldn't care less if everyone sits around schnockered out of his mind. But the drugs came before the laws. And the drugs are the reason that chemicals are watched.

You Millenials sure are touchy.

madscientist - 1-12-2010 at 15:04

There's a lot of talk that SM is overly tolerant of drug related topics. I suggest that these individuals take a gander at some of the more popular drug forums, and see what they have to say about us. It's usually along the lines of "what a bunch of uptight assholes."

On that note, I can't recall PCP ever being mentioned in a positive light here.

IrC: The National Institute on Drug Abuse is not what I'd consider credible. They exist solely to justify the CSA. I will not debate the unhealthiness of PCP - but please do cite more objective sources.

IrC - 1-12-2010 at 18:14

You probably have a point M.S.. However I am not sure what sources out there you can trust anymore, especially in this internet age. Honestly I just searched the subject and used one of the 'more respectable looking' sources. If you have some ideas of sources post it and I will do a little looking around at what they have for information. All that aside I do have years of stories from many people which justify the negative light on PCP, yet as you mention posting here requires some solid and accurate sources. Just hard to tell reading online when they have respectable sounding credentials if in fact they are a source worth quoting.

My bad.

Mister Junk Pile - 1-12-2010 at 18:36

Well, IrC, it might be correct information, but it's like making arguments for gun control and quoting the Brady Center. Technically there is nothing wrong with it, I suppose, but it lends more credibility to the argument to use more "unbiased" sources.

IrC - 1-12-2010 at 19:43

Quote: Originally posted by Mister Junk Pile

Well, IrC, it might be correct information, but it's like making arguments for gun control and quoting the Brady Center. Technically there is nothing wrong with it, I suppose, but it lends more credibility to the argument to use more "unbiased" sources.

Actually you are doing precisely the same thing Mr Pile. You are claiming the source is biased with no evidence to prove it. Cite your source proving my source is biased. Then cite your source proving your source of relative bias information is itself credible. I mean not biased. I could have used this on M.S. but the difference is in my eyes He has standing and therefore credibility. I could be 'biased' however.

Yet I find I must draw the line with your post. Look carefully at what you just said. Utterly meaningless. You are saying Edison's light bulb may be good on paper but it can never produce light unless Edison has a degree on paper proving his 'credibility' to the world. Truth contains it's own intrinsic credibility with neutral bias and therefore needs no paperwork to go with it. Or anyone's opinion.

Have you found a reliable list online which proves the relative bias of all information sources so one can avoid all the 'bad places', and if so provide the URL so I can determine whether or not it is biased or unbiased itself before I use it.

Mister Junk Pile - 4-12-2010 at 19:34

How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post? I'd say a source is biased when they have an agenda other than the simple dissemination of information. I don't feel any sources are needed to determine something that is "common knowledge". For example, I don't need to give you sources when I say a horse is a mammal in an informal setting.

Seriously, what was with that reply? I'm doing exactly the same thing? What??

IrC - 5-12-2010 at 16:30

How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?

Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the hell are you? You made the same mistake MS did. I was just being nice to him but I feel I do not need to with you. MS failed to show any evidence for the 'bias' he claims in my source. Neither did you and you were not in the conversation. http://www.nida.nih.gov/researchers.html

My source. Staffed with doctors and scientists. Before you wish to call them biased you should prove it. MS only said they 'serve' the 'CSA' with no further information. What CSA?

Community Supported Agriculture?
CSA International?
Casting Society of America?
www.csa.com/?
Certified Senior Advisor?
child support agency?
csa airlines? OK, it must be the
canadian space agency! at least science is in there somewhere.

Your point involves the Brady Center. Myself I am for guns, but if I wanted to hear an opposing view I do not see why the words of a crime victim who actually was shot would be a poor source. If we cannot listen to the words of someone who got shot about gun control then just exactly what would be a credible source for it? Some flaming liberal weenie who has never even held a gun? I have A - been shot at more than once, and B - been shot myself. Yet I believe we should own guns to defend ourselves. Do points A and B show I should also be considered a 'biased' source either for or against gun control?

My point being if you feel you have the right to lecture me then prove it.

[Edited on 12-6-2010 by IrC]

InFormation - 5-12-2010 at 17:17

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

This was the reason I saw the TV show "Breaking Bad" as SO essentially evil and destructive. It viewed chemistry in a very ugly light, it's "stars" were the idiot and the selfish, unthinking & grotesquely immature " teacher". And it's message was that chemistry at home equals narcotics; period. no one would practice chemistry outside of a professional setting for any reason other than to make drugs.
The concept of chemophobia, Was more deeply elicited by that show alone, than several major incidents in life. It piped it's fear and loathing into (perhaps) millions of homes each week.

... in glorious 1080p high definition.

Look at the bright side. At least you can sit back and chuckle to yourself that the media-biased chemophobia we have all grown to love and adore (sic) was adapted into a high budget enterprise with award winning actors, in quality fit for Blu-Ray, and went on to win six (6) Emmy Awards.

No, seriously, laugh at the gullible people that actually thought chemistry was just for drugs and bombs after watching that show; only to walk off and cook dinner on Teflon coated pans with gas hotplates, and take an antacid tablet for indigestion.

Sedit - 6-12-2010 at 00:05

Quote:

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?

Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the hell are you?

Seriously? You don't know who the hell he is? Please IrC Think about that for perhaps a minute or two and tell me if this person has ONLY 30 some post or if hes perhaps someone that has much time put into this forum.... If you still feel hes a new commer after much thought has been put into it then....well ok....

quicksilver - 7-12-2010 at 11:34

And real talent went broke.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d49m6G9vOrI
One good reason to pay less and less attention to actors, post-modern impressionists, & what we call music today.

UnintentionalChaos - 7-12-2010 at 12:37

Quote:

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

Kindly enlighten us as to who it is, then.

Rogeryermaw - 1-1-2011 at 12:51

the events and numbers haven't really changed that much. still a ton of drugs out there. still murderers and rapists that operate independently of the drug situation. what has changed is the availability of information. the 1940's and '50's etc that enjoy their reputations as a "peaceful golden age" in america just didn't have the internet and rabid news media outlets to spread the disgusting stories as far as they go today. the same shit happened. it just seems worse because we all hear about it now as opposed to a select few. that tragic regional story of a kid stabbed by a whacked out mother is what would now be an overnight, viral, international news sensation where 40 years ago it may not even make it past state lines.

turd - 1-1-2011 at 14:11

What? A thread on PCP while I was out of town? Dirty tricks!

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit

I have to disagree PCP is a drug that makes the person act like a schizophrinic and will degrade them on a deeper level. I have had experiances with it and where as I have not had any desire in the slightest to abuse it I can very well see how it could drive someone to murder someone they would not normally do so.

So I guess we are the only two people on this thread who actually tried PCP. It's really amusing to read all the bickering of people who haven't even tried it! Lol. My group's experiences (20 mg of the HCl salt, pure by NMR, intranasally, a colleague couldn't resist when he got hold of a bottle of piperidine

) seem to be different from yours and very much confirm MagicJigPipe and wikipedia. I spare you the details, but IMHO no way a "normal" person could get violent on a strong PCP trip, but rather the opposite is true. At first you are too far out for something like violence to even exist and when coming back the proportions of everything are so wrong that you have other priorities than getting aggressive (like learning to speak again). The problem probably arises when clueless/hysterical people treat spaced out people the wrong way - just let them come back, in one or two hours everything is fine.

The only reason I can imagine why this drug was popular is *because* of the stupid media brouhaha and maybe as a short-lived fad. Seriously, this is not useful as a party drug (and neither is ketamine). And of course this is the reason it is not around anymore - much better party drugs abound. Production of PCP and analogues cannot be controlled by law, because chemistry is so terribly trivial. All you need is PhBr, Mg or Li, a random amine and cyclohexanone. With that you can produce kg batches at dose levels of 20 mg.

The "war on drugs" was lost a long time ago. If only they'd finally admit it.

quicksilver - 6-1-2011 at 14:58

There is no question that the "war on drugs" was lost nearly from the Harrison Narcotics Act because just as prohibition; there will always be a segment of society that will demand to alter their natural state of thinking, conciseness, mental processing & by dealing with the "object" we waste our time.

However we have an investment in the "war on drugs"; both monetary & societal. We also have a reality of those who have a deep emotional impact from a tragedy wherein altered states of mental acuity were involved and that is VERY understandable.
Rhetorically, asking whether drugs are "good or bad" is similar to asking whether RDX is good or bad. The object obviously does not make an impact on society; it's use does. But just as one cannot stop a chemical from existence, one cannot stop metallic objects from forming weapons, etc.

The discussion is aimed at the wrong agenda. If it's guns or drugs; the shit exists and it doesn't go away via legislation. Is Mexico City a violent place? They have some damn strict gun laws. Is Japan drug free?
Our "drug Prohibition is entrenched for MANY reasons. What has NOT happened is many damn positive things from it. Would "treatment on demand" make a difference? Who fucking knows; becasue in the USA we have a frolicking "Treatment Industry" that makes real $ off of getting someone into a classic narcissistic format of pseudo-science called substance-abuse therapy.

We have looked at this subject from a microscope and with sunglasses but the prescription doesn't fit - and hasn't for decades. The few people with balls enough to conceive that there may be brain chemistry issues in place (either fore or after drug ingestion over a protracted period) have not had an opportunity to examine a worthwhile solution because there wouldn't be any $ in it and there certainly wouldn't be any votes.

So, we know that what HAS been attempted has had little result - why do we continue to tread the same tired old path? We all know the answer.
-- MAJOR RISK WITH MINIMAL REWARD!

Regolith - 9-2-2011 at 03:12

I hate posting in old threads but as this turned into a drug crap-storm and has I believe not enough voices on the side of caution.

First on Chemophobia, I'm a beekeeper by hobby, tell someone you work with a million stinging insects and they get nervous. Tell them you have a hive in your backyard in addition to several outside the city and they will blame you anytime they get stung (don't even start on me about bees, proper beekeepers don't keep angry bees, people stung anywhere near me are likely not my bees and/or wasps). Chemistry is almost no different (the similarities are striking, run out of patience with either and/or be unprepared and you will hurt/die) most people are totally ignorant of it and ignorance is treated with fear.

Don't try to change other people, you can't. My family LOVES the honey and cheap candles, think I can get any of them to help me? Hells no. Change yourself, keep all chemicals in proper storage when not in use have an MSDS list of what you have and have EVERYTHING labeled correctly. If randomly the cops show up one day on something unrelated and with a warrant search your house (highly unlikely especially if you keep mum about your goings on) they would probably freak out and call the bomb squad who would arrive and look at the msds lists you have, verify safety, and MAY leave without taking everything(assuming no explosive materials are found).

Finally regarding drugs and the human mind. I've walked through my own mind with many of the mentioned chemicals the intent WAS that inward trip. Further I wanted to experience the cascade within my own brain. I can't imagine the fear someone (who was handed random drugs and took them) would experience in that same situation not knowing why they were seeing things. Pcp is used for sedation/anaesthetic it WILL dissociate you with the world meaning you aren't going to feel like its the real world. It induces a situation where the brain should be asleep, horrific waking nightmares, wetting oneself (already mentioned). People have torn all the ligaments in their arms trying to lift things that normally their brain would signal it's a bad idea and or moved things crazy heavy like cars because with adrenaline pumping but no pain response (or higher brain function, its sedated) the human body is amazing/dangerous.

"But I think what we are debating is the complete change of someone's personality (i.e. from pretty normal to baby murderer). I just don't think it happens all too often."
It's called a Psychotic break (it can be permanent) and I have seen it turn a normal person into one who now suffers lifetime schizophrenia. Some peoples minds are either that fragile or just vulnerable to that drug/state. In the above case it's a now family member of a person who married my sister. The guy is just weird and he only did coke and meth mixed (there was no easy way to put that, mixing drugs like that is insane, plus don't do either, coke can explode your heart and meth, well I like having sinus passages NOT eroded into passage). Both less crazy (subjective) than pcp. His mind couldn't take it, he was found a couple days later covered in his own filth crying behind a dumpster. Never been the same since. He was given them mixed at a party. Drug laws exist so we all don't end up the same.

"PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that capability."
I just laughed so hard after reading this I needed to reply. Yes that pesky (drug) testosterone in males doesn't cause fits of rage when taken by bodybuilders.

"The problem probably arises when clueless/hysterical people treat spaced out people the wrong way - just let them come back, in one or two hours everything is fine."
Yeah clueless, like say cops at a nightclub, hey whats wrong with that guy ? Which takes me back to the above mentioned dude flipping a car on his own, that didn't stop him either. He came at the cops and they had to gun him down. "Spaced out people" ARE clueless and often hysterical mix that with fear and you have a bad situation for all involved. Your talking about someone who may think your a friking alien and has both the strength and the will to tear your alien arms off. The argument the cops shouldn't have shown up either has no merit anyone that out of it was a danger to all around him, a bad note from a band could have set him off. It's fortunate the ones who set him off had the capability to stop him. You can't taze someone like that either, adrenaline helps to protect the nerve pathways from things like electric shock. Plus guy flips a car and runs at you screaming... that's the start of a zombie movie.

I like my green plant that I very much enjoy smoking so I'm not saying all drugs are bad. However starting down a path without questions and intelligence isn't science or even research.

Messages not quoted directly because I'm lazy.

turd - 9-2-2011 at 11:42

Yeah, apparently PCP really does cause psychosis - in people not taking it.

Regolith - 9-2-2011 at 23:32

Yes, you are one of the people I'm laughing at

I wanted to be nice to you but since you decided to poke your head up I'll point and laugh.

Here I did an edit cause your myopic view of the world can't google apparently.
Here is a dad high on PCP who ATE one of his kids eyes and tried to get the other as well as attempted to hack off his own foot with an axe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsSSpPZbFtY&feature=playe...

Here's a guy who just laid down on the street and got run over. high on pcp
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/08/jersey_city_man_l...

and here is a HIV positive guy who ran naked and bleeding through a church, high on pcp
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a92_1244393707

WOW those were hard to find. Bust out your google and brain next time before wasting my time.

It's a sedative hellooo, duh, with higher brain function SEDATED you don't do normal things. Arguing this point shows you don't have higher brain functions to start with.

[Edited on 10-2-2011 by Regolith]

a_bab - 10-2-2011 at 01:21

@Turd: You tend to to rely on your own experience. But when it comes to dopes the ways it reacts with people could be quite different, just as any other drugs. What a certain chem could be an effective drug to the most, it would possibly kill a few due to an allergic response, or it may not be effective at all for some. Hell, just read the instructions of ANY med. There are so many side effects that you'd be scared.

Moreover, when dealing with mind altering stuff it gets worse, as we are getting into "mind side effects", which could manifest in an unpredictible way just as Regolith stated very clearly.

Just accept the fact that while PCP turns you and your party mates into trippy vegetables sitting in a corner, others may want to take off because THEY KNOW they can do it. From the 5'th floor.
Oh, sorry. It MUST be all just media BS.

If you judge things based on your limited experience, your judgement cannot be otherwise then limited.

Also I cannot help myself not noticeing the fact that some members not only openly show off they are into making dopes, but also discuss about the effects.
The more time passes, the more this forum starts to desintegrate before my eyes into cells, hexagonally shapped, all bound together, with the happy bees buzzing around.

Poor Sauron, he was right.

[Edited on 10-2-2011 by a_bab]

turd - 10-2-2011 at 02:05

Yes, you are one of the people I'm laughing at

Good for you, laughing is the best medicine.

Psychopaths have existed for as long as humanity and they always had convenient excuses:
- a few hundred years ago: "The devil made me do it"
- forty years ago: "PCP made me do it"
- now: "Meth made me do it"
Never mind that amphetamines are a constant part of subculture since the 1950ies, but suddenly they are the devil himself. Or that about ten years ago ketamine, which has an action profile essentially identical to that of PCP, was very much en vogue. Curiously people didn't start to jump out of windows, etc. That alone makes your pseudo-scientific explanations go down the drain. The devil, PCP and meth are just cases of mass-psychosis and you don't call it "demonization" for nothing. If it wasn't for that demonization, I'm quite sure that PCP would be completely uninteresting except for a very very tiny part of the population (crazy Goths

). Indeed, PCP analogs can be sourced easily over the internet via the so called "RC-business" and nobody seems to care.

Quote:

@Turd: You tend to to rely on your own experience.

Not only, but definitely also, yes.

Quote:

Also I cannot help myself not noticeing the fact that some members not only openly show off they are into making dopes, but also discuss about the effects.
The more time passes, the more this forum starts to desintegrate before my eyes into cells, hexagonally shapped, all bound together, with the happy bees buzzing around.

Oh, please. We're not discussing the effects here for the effect's sake, but since it clearly shows that the media and politicians are full of shit (or criminals). I don't know if you are directly addressing my post in this thread, just to make it clear: the chemist wasn't me and it was before I even registered at this site. PCP (analogue) chemistry is quite nice, because it's metal organic chemistry that can be done in an amateur setting and the molecules have a nice look. The pharmacology is of course a drawback, but you don't have to eat them!

Regolith - 10-2-2011 at 02:57

Yes C13H16ClNO has almost the same profile as C17H25N OH wait NO! there totally different drugs/chemicals. There is a reason ketamine is used still in veterinary medicine still and pcp is not.

What are you even talking about ? Is this your mental process ? The 2 both make you sleep.... THERE THE SAME DRUG....

Let me guess, by your reasoning the gov took down the twin towers and chem trails are mind control devices. The man just wants YOU to not have fun.

[Edited on 10-2-2011 by Regolith]

quicksilver - 10-2-2011 at 07:57

I would ask that folks keep an open mind and examine history.

As an aside, if we were to look at seriously mindless slaughter from the period of the Great Khans to that of the Crusades certainly millions died at the hand of fellow humans in the most hideous, barbaric, & painful fashion for limited reasons of Empire building. In fact, during the reign of the Genghis Khan, "tribute" was even secondary for the group of tribes thought little of "symbolic wealth" (gold, etc) and traded, mostly for horses and workable goods). This was perhaps the greatest level of slaughter imaginable where upon battle-fields miles wide were littered with tens of thousands of dead. Millions had been put to the sword with causes so obscure that we can barely understand their conception, let alone their magnitude.
There was NO dope as per today's definition. Even opium, marijuana, etc were generally used medically and alcohol was not the pro-generator of such wide scale genocide.

The actions of some while under the influence, while deplorable has similar levels to that of mentally unstable individuals wherein brain chemistry (naturally occurring) accounted for similar horrors. My point is NOT to excuse actions taken under the influence but to point to a level of destructiveness that has been with man for quite a long time. The aspects of "cause & effect" may also lay in the same ratios & proportions.

Take one battle and then conceive of tens of thousands being killed manually with bladed weapons. The depth of the horror inflicted by man with NO mind altering materials not only flourished but expanded & that scope of such a thing is barely conceivable to modern thinking as this was "hand to hand" battles brought about by a whim.

While we could examine the use of drugs by some sub-groups in the initial elements of an act of violence (Assassins, etc) it hardly compares to the SOBER atrocities committed through history.
The use of alcohol or similar was utilized often as a means of relaxation or social adjustment (or even a means of addressing what may have been termed PTSD) AFTER such a slaughter; not the instigator.

[Edited on 10-2-2011 by quicksilver]

turd - 11-2-2011 at 00:26

Yes C13H16ClNO has almost the same profile as C17H25N OH wait NO! there totally different drugs/chemicals. There is a reason ketamine is used still in veterinary medicine still and pcp is not.

I'll assume that you are genuinely ignorant of the topic and not trolling.
Only a connoisseur will be able to tell the difference between a PCP and a ketamine trip once reaching dissociative levels under double blind conditions. I'm quite sure I couldn't. Even DXM (totally different molecular structure) at dissociative doses is very similar with one fundamental difference - an absolutely terrible and long body hangover whereas PCP/ketamine give you a pleasant cotton feeling on come down which quickly passes.

I very much doubt that ketamine is chosen over PCP in veterinary applications for its different psychotropic effects. I'd rather believe that things like PCP being scheduled and a shorter time of action are relevant. But please feel free to check the literature and inform us. That raises an interesting issue: do animals experience the same effects and doesn't that make the use quite questionable?

Edit: And nobody tell me animals don't dream: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QrGDmJdaeI

[Edited on 11-2-2011 by turd]

Regolith - 11-2-2011 at 02:04

Quote:

I'll assume that you are genuinely ignorant of the topic and not trolling.

What IS the topic here it's not Turd and how kewl he is and does piles of drugs. It's Security of reagent orders from chemical companies in this age of chemophobia, paranoia and the oppressive health and safety.... So it would appear YOUR the one totally ignorant of the topic.

Quote:

"I very much doubt that ketamine is chosen over PCP"

Your doubt doesn't effect the facts fortunately.

Quote:

"I very much doubt that ketamine is chosen over PCP in veterinary applications for its different psychotropic effects."

There are not getting the animal HIGH you fool there sedating it.

Quote:

"I'd rather believe that things like PCP being scheduled and a shorter time of action are relevant."

Your belief as show by a simple google search is incorrect.

Quote:

"But please feel free to check the literature and inform us. That raises an interesting issue: do animals experience the same effects and doesn't that make the use quite questionable?"

Your ramblings changing pace halfway through show how much functioning brain you have left, animals dreaming?... yes change the topic cause your loosing the argument.

Do you even know how to googe ?
http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/anesthesia.html
Oops checked the literature Oh look I'm right. It's almost like I deal in science and have doctors and engineers as my peers not the drooling meth head next to me as you seem to.

Notice pcp LIKE chemicals are listed but NOT under current use Ketamine IS. They also list it as a dissociative anesthetic like I've been saying one person here is right one is... well talking about dreaming animals.

All drugs aren't bad. Even some bad drugs done in moderation aren't bad. People do your own homework, don't listen to people like me and especially NOT turd, his own words show why you don't abuse things like pcp you end up with no working brain anymore and then tries to change the topic to dreaming animals

.

This thread had wandered significantly since it's start.

[Edited on 11-2-2011 by Regolith]

turd - 11-2-2011 at 03:03

The link you posted just proves my point: PCP is a dissociative anesthetic, as is ketamine. The latter may have some advantages for veterinary applications but from a recreational drug point of view, they are pretty much the same. If you're such an expert in googling and don't trust my experience (why would I lie?), why don't you search for reports of people who have actually taken both? You will see that some say one is better, some say the other is better and some that they're basically the same. I tell you: it's all about set, setting and prior experience.

The reason why PCP is demonized is simply that it was a common street drug at a time. And that was due to the fact that the synthesis of PCP is much simpler than that of ketamine and that the effective dose is smaller by a factor of 10.

I was under the impression that everybody would be able to make the connection to dreaming: If animals dream, then chances are high that they are also able to experience the dissociated state of mind. Since I'm not an expert, I don't want to discuss the moral implications, but I have to wonder: why not use other anesthetics if there is some doubt? It's not like there is the risk of habit formation, since the pet going to the local junkie scene has not yet been seen.

entropy51 - 25-2-2011 at 07:23

Got Phenol?

Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari’s efforts to buy the one missing ingredient, a liquid chemical called phenol, prompted employees at Carolina Biological Supply and Con-Way Inc. to contact the Federal Bureau of Investigation with suspicions about the purchase and the buyer.

Link to story

Link to FBI affadavit

[Edited on 25-2-2011 by entropy51]

Sedit - 25-2-2011 at 08:06

Regolith please understand that you appear very confused and know little of the pharmacology of the compounds your talking about, PCP and Ketamine are both powerful NMDA receptor antagonist and if you fail to see the simularitys between the structure of the two compounds try to overlay one onto the other and see where your getting confused. There is a ring structure around the nitrogen in PCP that is not there in Ketamine along with some other modifications of the parent compound but your speaking very strongly about something that you appear to know little about.

Try not to take offense to this but with all the hate throwing towards people interested in bioactive compounds im not sure it would matter to me if offense is taken. Those who bitch about drug chemistry fail to grasp the concept that without it your lifespan would more then likely be around 40-50 years old at best not including the current toxins that everyother branch of chemistry releases into the air these days making if difficult to judge what the average lifespan should be without the advancements made in medical chemistry. So what if the compound affects the nervous system and makes it to the brain, does that make it that much worse then one that does not and is designed to save you in case of a heart attack?

How would one feel if there was a drug discovered that completely stopped aging and made someone close to immortal, or with 100% effectivness cured cancer or AIDs.......yet there was one "bad" side effect, that drug induced euphoria, would you think that drug was evil or a god send... in todays logic anything that induces euphoria is quickly labled as a heavy side effect and testing is pulled until they can modify the compound so you feel like shit to avoid abuse potential. The fear mongering going on here about bioactive compounds is no different then the fear mongering going around the general population about chemistry in general so I honestly think many need to take a step back and look at the picture as a whole instead of trying to class bioactive compounds as something completely different then the chemistry they deem acceptable. Its just like the cases of laymen and fear of chemistry, your fear comes from your lack of understanding.

quicksilver - 25-2-2011 at 12:21

There was a very interesting issue that took place some many years back re: an amino acid that produced serotonin, this was restricted by the FDA during a period where (within perhaps a weeks time frame) a number of SSRI's (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) were placed on the market.* as a side note, there is also some evidence to suggest that GHB may have some beneficial effects and could be controlled via prescription obviously but the competition for the patent would be disputed with more of a challenge than a "easier to individuate" SSRI's or related pharma-ligands. There is a great deal of money in pharmacology; excluding all the aspects of drug abuse as a moral issue.

If we were to put the moral issue to aside for a moment; the power of "big pharmacology" has a similarity with the need for alternative energy issues within most developed nations. In consequence, what may be productive for the nation as a whole is not always what is productive for the financial health of a company.
This brings a powerful issue to the fore front. Is patriotism (in the form of a nation's well) being more significant than a company's well being? Many people would suggest that the two issues can be inter-related or wed. However with much manufacturing being an agenda of the "lowest bidder" in most any free market, what is best for one may not be best for the other.

* Time Magazine (exact date to be added)

[Edited on 25-2-2011 by quicksilver]

anotheronebitesthedust - 25-2-2011 at 17:21

Countries are kinda like giant corporations as well, and most companies don't want workers smoking cannabis or other substances because that may slow down production. This is one of the main reasons why there was so much fear-mongering and propaganda with marijuana being described as "the devil's cabbage" and how it would cause users to go insane. Then we see the exact same thing happen with MDMA, fake studies were put out about how it created "holes in the brain." And now that real studies are taking place in the age of the internet we see that it actually doesn't cause brain damage.

Combine the propaganda with Sedit's argument that a lack of understanding creates fear and we end up with uninformed and scared people.

Combine that with quicksilver's argument that big pharma has an interest in keeping "alternative medicines" illegal (as well as pretty much every other major lobby) and we end up with a demand for uninformed and scared people.

[Edited on 26-2-2011 by anotheronebitesthedust]

Regolith - 26-2-2011 at 21:10

Sedit I simply wasn't going to run anymore (with turd) in the special olympics. I'm well aware of the structure of both drugs and there method of use. I do my own biochemistry research among my other hundred hobbies (I even breed my own research animals...). In fact your response was an enormous facepalm moment.

Have you read my other posts ? I'm not at all against drugs and I'm also on board with the idea that the gov often bans things that can be abused (by significant research marijuana was likely banned due to the cheaper fibre than cotton that could be made from it and pressure from cotton lobbyists, not it's psychoactive properties). I'm against people saying how amazing something is and how high it got them without any scientific data. Like turd and his drug group. Saying both drugs are the same and talking about the difference in high which is what was going on, is SUPPOSED to NOT be the purpose of this board. My responses were to tear down the cool drug idea, not drugs in general. So your on board with taking any random drug ? Good to know. Is meth a good drug (to you)? and/or would you abuse it ?

I havent posted any drug related synth here because of the shitstorms (Hello) that generally accompany them. In another thread I made sodium nitrite it was combined with GABA last night...(totally legal where I am)

I'm not on this board to gain knowledge (it has happened here and there in anecdotal fashion). I haven't needed to ask question one since I've been here. I'm a qualified scientist in my own right. I'm here because doing work for one is lonely.

Seriously the thread comes back after a week off and you post another drug related post? I stopped because it was badly off topic and I kept tripping over corkys hockey helmet. I've worked with cops and SEEN what crazy (perhaps already mentally disturbed) people do on drugs. I was on hand to take pictures of the aftermath of a cement mixer going down the highway at over a hundred and cutting a minivan in two killing the entire family. The guy was drunk as hell and tried to hide the bottle in the back of the mixer, (brilliant, that didn't preserve it for the police) no hard drugs just regular alcohol. So I'm also on board with the idea that some people are just not cut out for any mind altering substance and/or moderation. There are only a few companies that make the camera systems for the police in all north america (and also the standardized solution to calibrate the intox machines). I contract out to one of them. Apologies to those who get speeding tickets near me that's likely my co-worker who does the initial calibration of the radar, before selling to law enforcement.

I mean I even argued in another thread about mankind not going back to the dark ages to lower anthropogenic CO2. With YOUR exact fact of lower lifespans... If you were gonna choose a target here you really picked the wrong one. Your response seems seriously out of place to anyone who reads these threads in totality and not with the myopic view of just this one thread.

Here's icing on my cake.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/11/09/2010-11-...
Some people shouldn't take drugs, some can't handle it. I was going to post Charlie sheens train wreck life brought on by chronic drug abuse (he'l rehab and pen a million dollar book deal), but this is better. When things go wrong on drugs the results are often horrifying.

quicksilver - 27-2-2011 at 07:27

HA! You did a good job bring together all the topics and rounding them off to and elegantly close.....Well I don't know how "elegant" CHARLIE SCHEEN is....THAT was a wasted life. Imagine being gifted with all the money anyone could truly want and instead of productive things you are so narcissistic, hedonistic, & childish that you grown organic in the damage done to your brain via alcohol & drug abuse? Have you ever HEARD the rambling of that idiot? It's actually (IMO of course) organic brain injury from over consumption, etc. Very few things that child says makes a bit of sense any longer. One rambling diatribe; sprinkled with made-up "clown verbiage".

Charlie Scheen is one of the best examples of why you should always investigate anything an actor says in [response to] matters of importance.

Sedit - 27-2-2011 at 22:57

Regolith its very late where I am and would love to give a longer discussion right now but I am unable to, please do me a favor and reread my entire post above and see if it was all directed at you and you alone. Your generalizing my hate for ignorence of biological substances to all be directed at you and it is in no way true.

But this must be replied to since I take offence to it, please don't turn this thread into a shit storm because I kind of like this thread and its one of the few of its nature still alive even if its far removed from the starting topic...

""So your on board with taking any random drug ? Good to know. Is meth a good drug (to you)? and/or would you abuse it ?"""

Not a chance, I have never in my life EVER taken anything that will alter my body in any major way without first knowing everything I can about it. Is meth a good drug? Hell no look at these fools, is it good for me? Damn right! my doctors placed me on amphetamines years ago. SSRI destroyed my concentration and memory to the point where that extremely high IQ that almost got me sent to college at the age of 16 must have dropped a good 30 points atlest. Methyl-amphetamines have a lower toxicity profile then amphetamines and a more direct mode of action. Given the choice I would chose Methylamphetamines over Amphetamines I now get any day of the week but as luck would have it Amphetamines where largely established in the big pharm well before amphetamines became a problem to society so without being able to fully ban them Methamphetamine took the brunt of the blow because it was simpler to make and it didn't have someone lobbying for it. So to answer your question Yes, without amphetamines I am a shell of what SSRI lexapro left me with. I am in no way back to normal but atlest I don't stare at something such as a computer screen and wounder WTF I was about to do, which is something I delt with for over 2 years after lexapro before getting some of that ugly... horrible, terrible, Amphetamine into my system which in all honesty saved me from being in a nut house or a jail right now. Its ok for your kids who didn't get an A+ on the test to get 30mg time release of amphetamine a day in the form of adderall tripple salt amphetamine yet its not ok for your neighbor to have some less toxic, apperently less potent methyl-amphetamine?

I could go on but I really don't have time. I have no shame in who I am, I have done drugs yet I have done my homework, I have given to the poor who deserve it and I have punished those who don't. I feel pretty damn good about the person I have become and thats due to what I have experienced and seen in my life and I have a real problem with people that know nothing about what real effect something does yet sit and speak about it as though they have first hand experience. I can assure you my heart is much more pure then the people who passed the laws saying the things I have done in my life in the past are wrong. There is no question about it.

PS:Regolith the only reason my previous comment started with you was because of you obvious misunderstanding about the simularitys of Arylcyclohexylamine and nothing more.

[Edited on 28-2-2011 by Sedit]

Regolith - 28-2-2011 at 00:56

Sedit you can just stop outright. I don't count you among my peers nor would I anyone who at the very least can't employ a spellchecker before posting. One of the most basic of human skills is the use of language.(please edit your post and correct yourself, I feel the need to respond to you just so the class doesn't think my silence gratifies your flawed response)

Your rambling about drug use I have no care for whatsoever. Are you trying to impress me with your being very young? Enough so to have used Lexapro (and been damaged by long term use, by 16) which has only been out for just under 10 years now?

You feel the need to try and brag which seems to be a result of my post, fascinating. Who put you on said antidepressant ? Your parents I assume? If this was the truth and you were harmed by it I guarantee there would have been a lawsuit as happens in the adult world. Further your bragging would have mentioned this. Thus I cannot conclude your testimony is true.

Your own life has been changed badly by the chronic use of drugs (prescribed or not). Yet your not onboard with my calls of caution. You try and make right your statements about abusing a veterinary anaesthetic. Again your statements cannot be judged as accurate. You also still try and seem to wish to sway my mind about drugs. I'm not against them.

You speak of a pure heart and yet you claim to have punished people who weren't deserving ? Those statements are in direct conflict with each other. I'm sure your punishing people matters to someone who isn't anybody here.

Next time to want to make a point use your amazing (drug ruined) intelligence and say what you want to without mentioning names. Use metaphors or other literary mechanisms.

I won't go so far as to call you a liar. However should you wish to prove yourself take a picture with or of your medication and redact what is necessary, put a post-it note or otherwise on it. Don't bother with a well worded response. Pictures of my own gear, research animals and products of my ability are right here on this board. This is the internet, pictures or it NEVER happened.

When compiling a thoughtful response to someone don't use things like "WTF" in the statement. No scientific paper that's ever going to be approved has that type of language in it. You should be treating the internet as a place that never ever forgets what you typed and thus try to be coherent. If you're too tired then post later when you are better rested.

Now, If you'll excuse me I'll be in other threads helping those who are still in active threads, not this one.

[Edited on 28-2-2011 by Regolith]

Magic Muzzlet - 28-2-2011 at 08:53

Sedit, you said you wouldn't use anything that would alter your body in a major way. Why did you start taking the SSRI's and all the other stuff from there? I thought it was a common knowledge once you enter the grip of pharma ie: take the prescriptions it only snowballs getting worse and worse and only ends up doing more harm than good.
I've read about all these things, and my only conclusion is that people who started taking these medications to "help" them only got worse.
I also know people who have started lexapro and related meds, they tell me the same thing. I mean, it does them no good, but the doc just keeps switching life ruining chemicals on them.
Why did you continue taking them? I look on the net for the meds you describe, all i think is that they are horrible for people to take.
Not having a go at you, just genuinely wondering why you continued.

turd - 28-2-2011 at 09:11

Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari’s efforts to buy the one missing ingredient, a liquid chemical called phenol[...]

Interesting. Last time I opened my bottle of phenol it was a solid with an appreciable vapor pressure.

Quote:

I havent posted any drug related synth here because of the shitstorms (Hello) that generally accompany them. In another thread I made sodium nitrite it was combined with GABA last night...(totally legal where I am)

ROTFL, you are a funny fellow! You cook GHB (of course totally legal where you are), the CNS depressant with an infamously steep dose/response curve that was linked to quite a few deaths in combination with alcohol, and give us lectures about the dangers of methamphetamine and phencyclidine? All that with a fervent display of self-confidence. Wow.

On the topic of methamphetamine I agree with Sedit: It's a tool and if you can't handle it, don't use it. For me personally - and I'm well aware that this is pure projection with no scientific foundation - it's also the archetype of all stimulants.

entropy51 - 28-2-2011 at 09:31

Quote: Originally posted by turd

Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari’s efforts to buy the one missing ingredient, a liquid chemical called phenol[...]

Interesting. Last time I opened my bottle of phenol it was a solid with an appreciable vapor pressure.

The stuff he ordered was Phenol, Liquid which is 88% Phenol.

Sedit - 28-2-2011 at 12:04

Sedit you can just stop outright. I don't count you among my peers nor would I anyone who at the very least can't employ a spellchecker before posting. One of the most basic of human skills is the use of language.(please edit your post and correct yourself, I feel the need to respond to you just so the class doesn't think my silence gratifies your flawed response)

Your rambling about drug use I have no care for whatsoever. Are you trying to impress me with your being very young? Enough so to have used Lexapro (and been damaged by long term use, by 16) which has only been out for just under 10 years now?

You feel the need to try and brag which seems to be a result of my post, fascinating. Who put you on said antidepressant ? Your parents I assume? If this was the truth and you were harmed by it I guarantee there would have been a lawsuit as happens in the adult world. Further your bragging would have mentioned this. Thus I cannot conclude your testimony is true.

Your own life has been changed badly by the chronic use of drugs (prescribed or not). Yet your not onboard with my calls of caution. You try and make right your statements about abusing a veterinary anaesthetic. Again your statements cannot be judged as accurate. You also still try and seem to wish to sway my mind about drugs. I'm not against them.

You speak of a pure heart and yet you claim to have punished people who weren't deserving ? Those statements are in direct conflict with each other. I'm sure your punishing people matters to someone who isn't anybody here.

Next time to want to make a point use your amazing (drug ruined) intelligence and say what you want to without mentioning names. Use metaphors or other literary mechanisms.

I won't go so far as to call you a liar. However should you wish to prove yourself take a picture with or of your medication and redact what is necessary, put a post-it note or otherwise on it. Don't bother with a well worded response. Pictures of my own gear, research animals and products of my ability are right here on this board. This is the internet, pictures or it NEVER happened.

When compiling a thoughtful response to someone don't use things like "WTF" in the statement. No scientific paper that's ever going to be approved has that type of language in it. You should be treating the internet as a place that never ever forgets what you typed and thus try to be coherent. If you're too tired then post later when you are better rested.

Now, If you'll excuse me I'll be in other threads helping those who are still in active threads, not this one.

[Edited on 28-2-2011 by Regolith]

You can cry about my spell checking abilitys all you wish yet I stated at the very start I was short on time when typing that message and thats that! I have seen these sort of complaints to have a pattern that when someone is not competent enough to "argue" or sustain the debate they resort to name calling, spell check whinning and a desire to have the thread they are in closed. Here we call those type of people trolls.

I am not submitting this for publication in a paper I am writting this mainly as a word of caution but that brings up my main important fact I wish to share with you and I will place it in nice big bold letters as you wish so that indeed you will understand it this time.

Your reading and comprehension abilitys are well below par and I can now see after having only a short discussion with you why everyone trying to speak with you is having issues. I was not 16 on Lexapro I was much older... They wanted to send me to college when I was 16 after being expelled from highschool for violent acts against the principle. The Lexapro was perscribed to me after I had a very long talk with one of the only knowledgeable psychiatric doctors I have ever spoken with. I knew that my anxietys where controlled with ease using sub theraputic doses of Alprazolam yet I spent much time discussing the receptor behavior of the GABA system and explained to him that I did not want the quick fix of Xanax anymore since its effects where not permanant and I did not wish to spend my entire life on medication in order to be able to socialize in public. I knew I had very bad instant reactions from Prozac and worse Zoloft and Effexor. When going thru clinics such as this you either take what they give you or you get no treatment at all and this is in the mission statement you sign when you walk thru the door. They first attempted Amitriptyline and after a single dose of 100mg I had completely lost my mine. The effects where almost exactly that of PCP matter of fact. I fell asleep and when someone woke me up to go lay down in bed I was suddenly wide awake, reality was very distorted and it was as though I was dreaming while awake. I was unable to sleep as the walls melted and I heard voices which is a hallucination I never experienced before. The worse part of all was I had no controlle over my arms and to a lesser extent my legs which literally beat the shit out of myself all night long due to strang uncontrolable spasms. This turns out to be a blessing because its how they found out I was bipolar. It has been known for sometime that Amitriptyline has a very harmful adverse reaction in Bipolar patients. Not that child hood bipolar shit where "oh my kids having mood swings medicate him" but an odd brainwave pattern and lower blood flow to the right hemisphere of my brain IIRC redirecting it to the left. My doctor decided to try the new SSRI on the market known as lexapro in combination with a Benzodiazapine that had a longer half life allowing for better dose administration.

Lexapro and Clonazapam combination worked wounders for the first few weeks to perhaps a month but unknown to me until just recently something known as downregulation of the seretonin receptors comes into effect around that same time. This is when I started to first show signs of problems and recent research of mine into it indicates that the nightly 105 degree F fevers, the uncontrolable tremors hallucinations,seizures alone with a list of other side effects could have possibly been the result of Seretonin syndrome which is something I knew nothing about at the time and did not have internet connection. The effects of the Clonazapam mostly masked these symptoms until I tryed to speak with a new doctor about it and they thru there paranoid mindset caused by modern teachings felt these effects where caused by Benzodiazapine abuse and cut my dose by 1/3 of the Clonazapam. This is when the shit hit the fan and to answer a bit of Magic Muzzlets answer at the same time, by then my mind was far enough gone to just keep eating them and walk around like a zombi all the time if I was even awake enough to do that since severe sedation sets in at times.

Now once again I will put this in bold because I feel you need this inorder for your brain to process what your reading correctly,

You must slow down when you read, you are not getting what your eyes are seeing. Up until you came into this thread no one advocated drug use. We where having a discussion on the harmful effects PCP has on society and the physical effects that vary from person to person. The main discussion was wether or not it or any substance could alter ones personality enough to turn a very mild mannered person into a crazy baby killer so to speak. You suggested that you where going to leave this thread and by all means I wish you would since this is one of the very few times drugs have ever been discussed here without turning into a shit storm and you come along and misread EVERY single post you have responded to and blurted out some nonsence that completely missed the point of the post you responded to in an attempt to start an argument. I will once again remind you that around here we call that a troll.

You got almost every single fact you read from my post wrong. Im not sure how but you have and you did so repeatedly not once but twice. Entropy here is one of our harsher drug critics yet he has been able to hold a mature discussion about drugs and personality. With all your ranting im rather convinced that im not the one who has been seriously affected by drug use.

Please, if this thread and these people bug you so much just forget about this thread and leave it alone so that we can for once have a civil discussion on drugs without it being sent to the trash bin. Do you have enough respect for the people of this forum to atlest do that?

Quote: Originally posted by Magic Muzzlet

Sedit, you said you wouldn't use anything that would alter your body in a major way. Why did you start taking the SSRI's and all the other stuff from there? I thought it was a common knowledge once you enter the grip of pharma ie: take the prescriptions it only snowballs getting worse and worse and only ends up doing more harm than good.
I've read about all these things, and my only conclusion is that people who started taking these medications to "help" them only got worse.
I also know people who have started lexapro and related meds, they tell me the same thing. I mean, it does them no good, but the doc just keeps switching life ruining chemicals on them.
Why did you continue taking them? I look on the net for the meds you describe, all i think is that they are horrible for people to take.
Not having a go at you, just genuinely wondering why you continued.

No offense taken at all Muzzlet and its a very good question indeed. I researched alot about Lexapro and had several sessions with my doctor before he convinced me to try it. At the time its selectivity for a specific 5-HT receptor due to sterospecificness it was touted as the safe SSRI medication and at first it appeared just that. No real harmful effects appeared until weeks into its use. I was told this was "adjustment symptoms" and I had convinced myself that if indeed something was going to fix me for life to do away with medications and drugs forever there may be a period where the body goes a little off. Sadly I was on it for over 2 years. The only internet access I had at the time was when I visited my parents and that time was normally so brief I never even got on the computer to find that others where going thru the same stuff. I ended up going ballistic in the end and I ruined my entire house thru a psychotic break completely taking the walls down to bear studs for the most part and leaving broken waterlines from ripped off sink running to flood the place. It could be worse. I could be like all the other horrible people you see on the news on shooting sprees when they reach this point. If one wants to do there homework they will see almost every mass shooting in the US that made the news since columbine shooting was from a person on SSRIs. Lexapro seems to be causing an increase from the looks of it.

I did not like seeing the doctors for reasons like you said I felt they messed up alot of people but there comes a point in some peoples life like myself where you realize that if the current state of mind continues you will be a completely worthless in society since I just could not socialize without very great difficulty obtaining and holding a job was getting harder and harder. Even if I managed to get a job while in the so called manic phase of this disorder, where you could ace a job interview with ease, theres good odds that a few weeks, a few months to a year later your brain chemistry is going to flip again and thats the point where working a normal job is impossible.

Now, with all that out of the way, you are in luck Regolith, I recently started to do sort of spring cleaning on old stuff I had when I moved from the house I destroyed and did find some of my Lexapro which I have been off for around 3 years I believe. If you promise to remove yourself from this thread I will gladly post you picture of my medication I was on. Your presense in this thread has been uncontructive and without value.

Thank you for taking the time to read this since im sure you have, and have a nice day

~Sedit

[Edited on 28-2-2011 by Sedit]

[Edited on 28-2-2011 by Sedit]

Regolith - 28-2-2011 at 22:05

I don't want this thread closed I wish YOU would have started by responding to the post about JihadJoe trying to make picric acid and failing.

I had STOPPED in my fighting of turd and had allowed another to have the last word.

Turd, Thats AMAZING what process do you know of that does a spontaneous catalyzation (without any outside chemicals) of GBL(legal) to GHB(illegal). Your were saying something about not knowing the difference between 2 chemicals... Are you kidding me ? You and Sedit and both in my same bag.

Seriously you know what?
Here's like your post never happened because I wanted to talk about this fool buying phenol in quantity when simply using aspirin for his detonator would have worked. JihadiJoe went looking at supply companies who know what these sort of chemicals can be made into.

This should be a note for those trying to buy raw chemicals, they don't just say okie dokie, here's your bomb chemicals. They ask questions and will possibly let the police know. Have a proper reason for what you need and/or make the products yourself.

If he was going to make the whole bomb from picric acid. I doubt he would have made it all the way to the bomb site. If he didn't know the where as to find phenol that wasn't a chemical supply company. He likely didn't have information about its corrosive properties and the salts made from storing it in most metal containers, like say a metal pipe. We may have found pieces of him on the way to the post office when bomb 1 has corroded nicely and sets off the others he would have been sending. According to testimony it's likely he was going to send or dropoff a couple and walk one in, receiving his shipment of virgins. He wasn't taking chemistry (what he was claiming) for those not wanting to read through pages of boredom. He was a business student, examples of how lying when trying to get your chemicals can only come back to bite you in the ass.

His affidavit is interesting. He obtained his nitric (30 liters of it, 448.36$ bucks total, not bad for 70%) and had it shipped to a fedex right near his house which he claimed was his business. He was denied at first cause it was going to an apartment. He got that and his sulphuric acid all the way to his place. I mean if he had gone with any other nitrated explosive it's likely he would have done it. I mean instead of picric or toluene (extreme quantities of nox produced when created) nitrate xlyene instead. It's only through the seeming stupidity of these guys that they haven't blown anything up recently. Or perhaps this is a cultural thing they are making bombs based on what they can get before coming here, phenol isn't a common chemical in it's raw state here. I haven't been to the middle east recently someone who has want to take a picture of phenol right next to the orange juice and infidel blood ? You just can't get the same from artificial infidel blood, totally different taste.

He actually had a book writing the important things like changing clothes in New york and renting cars, plans to put the bombs in dolls or bags of diapers. Note to self, run like hell if I find a random bag of pampers on my doorstep. He wrote his name in his bomb manual, I mean this was just arrogance as to he wouldn't have anyone figure this out.

Edit to remove offensive line, perhaps the topic should return to the stated topic? not PCP discussion ?
Further edited to remove additional confrontational mention of age.

Final edit to remove the directed offence, I take strong issue with the abuse of meth in all forms however this fight tires me.

[Edited on 1-3-2011 by Regolith]

madscientist - 28-2-2011 at 23:09

Quote:

.I've taught classes of kids older than you.

And plenty who taught your generation would disagree with you as well! "I'm older than you" does not constitute an argument.

Regolith, your tone is insulting and aggressive. No more of this! Posters are entitled to share their opinions, but only when done with respect.

Regolith - 28-2-2011 at 23:15

Please also look into my fact that I HAD left this alone and someone else decided to kick me again...

Sedit - 1-3-2011 at 01:23

Polverone, can we please ban Regolith? He has very little value to this forum what so ever and has proven himself a troll in this thread and since he's relatively new I can only expect more to come.

Regolith, Im not going to risk this thread being sent to the trash bin like your pathetic trollin ass wishes so what Im going to do is tear you a new ass hole via private message when im done my studio time doing something constructive tommorow other then making you understand you about as worthless as something I left in my john this morning right now.

Go to hell my brother, atlest there you will be with all your trouble making freinds, quit chemistry while your at it because your not that good at it and your ego is much larger then your ability to understand..... Fucking trolls, this aint a bridge bro, why are you even here?

You wanted proof, I offer it to you. I WILLLLLLLLLLL show you my medication if you never show your face around here again if thats what it takes, I just bought a new digi camera today anyway and found some of my old meds but if your dumb ass is expecting me to show you the lable, name and all your more foolish then I thought.. all you will get is a file of 10mg lexapro pictures for god knows what reason you want them, and thats it, I dispise you and you are the type of people that cause the rest of the "drug using community" to put it in a means I hate to put it in, to have a bad name!. You have no focus, you cant read a full sentance without blurting out non-sence ect...ect... YOU HAVE NO VALUE HERE!

For the first time in my life on this forum I am going to do something I have never done. I am going to personally ask polverone to move this to an area of the forum which im pretty sure you have no access to. If you follow I will request a ban. Fuck your half hearted self and the horse you road in on.

OH, And BTW Dont think im dumb enough to think your just some egotistical newbee so why dont you drop the sock puppet act and come clean instead of hidding behing a new SN you friggin coward!!!!!!

PS: Note to mods, please don't end this thread becausxe of this fool. Theres one in every bunch and alot more could be gained from ending his discussion here instead of all of ours.

PS:Heres where you fully fucked up and I seen how stupid you really where, besides the previous post where you showed your inability to read and comprehend a sentance

""Intelligent people know what abuse of methamphetamine does to a person long term."

Is that so? So your much smarted the everyone since around the 1920s or so who have found amphetamines to cure almost every ailment in the book from arthristes to depression, pain, ...... Awww screw it, your just a dumb ass 16-23 year old pot head who got the world figured out so im not even going to waste more time on trying to educate you in what your lacking. You wouldnt get it anyway so why bother. The problem with amphetamines is when egotistical people such as yourself get ahold of them and an decide that they need to take over the area they rule.... Hitler is a prime example of this but you no nothing about that either more then likely.... well good by freind it was nice knowing you... if only sarcasm was simple to type on a computer I wouldnt have to type so many of these worthless words your just going to mis interperate anyway.

Loser! That should get the point across, its in bold so you might see it.

[Edited on 1-3-2011 by Sedit]

Regolith - 1-3-2011 at 01:46

Sedit I already vented to madscientist. You and I have both done our goto hecks to each other in one fashion or another. Fighting takes far too much energy, lets agree to hate one another and continue this thread back on track.

I give permission right here for the mods to look as deep as possible (I do have excellent firewalls) into my IP and MAC address. I'm not anyone whose ever been here before. Your not the first to suggest that to me, I was mistaken for entropy as well....

.

I agree I do have an ego, the jobs I've had and am at often stroke it.

The topic was last that Middle eastern gent who was trying to buy phenol. For the sake of getting along my post has been truncated by me to remove the offensive statements. I needed someone with sense to yell at and madscientist provided that. I'm extremely polarized about methamphetamine abuse and you whip that into a frenzy.

Sedit - 1-3-2011 at 01:59

I almost thought you where entropy as well but the writting style is different and I know he has enough knowledge about this subject to not make the blatent foolish remarks you are. He may hate drugs but atlest he knows what he hates. You on the other hand are a blind man beating a scarecrow because you think hes the one that tryed to take your wallet. Your lack of knowledge about what you speak is over shadowed by your ego and if you would slow down you would see I WAS defending you at the start of our conversation yet you just could not comprehend when I tryed to explain the overlay pattern between various Arylcyclohexylamine. Rarely do I say this because I normally converse with people who know way more on the subject then me but for once please, do me a favor, shut up and listen instead of feeling the urge to type as soon as you read a post and then after researching to see if I was right or not..... Then respond and I would be more then happy to have a discussion with you.

turd - 1-3-2011 at 02:24