Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Notre Dame Smoke

Notre Dame Smoke

Morgan - 15-4-2019 at 12:16

Watching the news, at one point the smoke seemed to have a chalky yellow or sulfur color and wondered what might be causing that?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]

hissingnoise - 15-4-2019 at 12:33

I kinda put the vivid colouring down to brown smoke being backlit by the sun.

brubei - 15-4-2019 at 14:12

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan

Watching the news, at one point the smoke seemed to have a chalky yellow or sulfur color and wondered what might be causing that?

inside job

wg48temp9 - 15-4-2019 at 14:28

Flames frequently look odd colors in pics or video due to saturation and or the spurious sensitivity of the sensor to near infrared.

In addition to the spurious sensitivity to IR the visible spectral sensitivity of the camera sensor does not accurately replicate a retina and the display primary colors have limitations too.

Morgan - 15-4-2019 at 17:37

"The exact cause of the blaze was not known, but French media quoted the Paris fire brigade as saying the fire is "potentially linked" to a 6 million-euro ($6.8 million) renovation project on the church's spire and its 250 tons of lead. "
https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_96eaae8...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxide

Could some smoke have been yellow from this?

Not the best showing yellow but the best I could dig up quickly.
https://e3.365dm.com/19/04/768x432/skynews-paris-notre-dame_...
https://media.nbcsandiego.com/images/652*367/notre-dame-fire...

"Massive plumes of yellow brown smoke is filling the air above Notre Dame Cathedral and ash is falling on tourists and others around the island that marks the center of Paris."
https://www.tennessean.com/picture-gallery/news/world/2019/0...

If you blow this photo up you can see it's decidedly yellow in places.
https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2019/04/000_1FO...
(Note the yellow smoke is proximate to the spire in the above photo.)
"The spire — made of oak and 250 tons of lead — was a primary focus of the renovation project ..."
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/notre-dame...

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]

myr - 15-4-2019 at 18:54

The enormity of the tragedy cannot possibly be overstated, and I am only thankful that (to the best of my knowledge) no one was killed in the inferno. While I've read many of the quite literally priceless relics were saved, and the main structure is intact, the damage is still horrific. (The choice of emoticon in the thread title is... concerning.) 【EDIT: This was an innocent mistake on the part of OP, and I apologise if I was of offense】

A more interesting question is what started the inferno, and why was the building so quickly and so rapidly was consumed by the fire? For 9 centuries and countless wars- including the French Revolution and WW2- the whole of the Cathedral has stood more or less intact. What was so special about the current circumstances that caused such damage?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]

Morgan - 15-4-2019 at 19:12

Quote: Originally posted by myr

The enormity of the tragedy cannot possibly be overstated, and I am only thankful that (to the best of my knowledge) no one was killed in the inferno. While I've read many of the quite literally priceless relics were saved, and the main structure is intact, the damage is still horrific. (The choice of emoticon in the thread title is... concerning.)

A more interesting question is what started the inferno, and why was the building so quickly and so rapidly was consumed by the fire? For 9 centuries and countless wars- including the French Revolution and WW2- the whole of the Cathedral has stood more or less intact. What was so special about the current circumstances that caused such damage?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]

I'm using a tablet and must have hit the emoticon accidentally when typing with several tabs open hunting information. I never intentionally use emoticons. Thanks for the heads up. Just tired and my tablet keeps freezing or locking up.

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]

RogueRose - 15-4-2019 at 19:17

Quote: Originally posted by myr

Quit being such an alarmist! Who gives a shia about some old building... I'm sure it is just another case of "some people doing something" and nothing for you to be worried about. It's an old building, it's expexted. It's not like churches are often the ONLY building left standing in an entire towned that is bombed, ravaged by fire, hit by hurricane/typhoon/tornado, earthquakes, etc. It's not like there are hudreds of miraculous cases like that which science will just ignore as "location location location". So the burning of the most famous chruch in the world is really kind of expected (when you have "some people" in your country).

j_sum1 - 15-4-2019 at 19:38

Actually, RR, this time I think it is you who needs a bit of perspective.
This is an 850 year old building which is old by even Parisian standards. There is a lot of history in those stones. It was considered worthwhile to undertake a many-millions restoration of the building (and not its first in all those centuries). Its loss is a tragedy. Not the same kind of tragedy as a loss of life but a tragedy nonetheless.

Morgan - 15-4-2019 at 19:43

"Lead sheet roofing on the outside of the wood structure. Molten lead fell in the cathedral interior, creating a hazard for firefighters."
"Approximately 210 tonnes (230 short tons) of lead sat atop this to complete the cathedral's roof."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_de_Paris_fire

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]

Morgan - 15-4-2019 at 20:49

Maybe the smoke from the fire could be of concern?
Know lead properties:
"Lead melts at 621 °F. Fumes are released at 900 °F. Lead can
be breathed in and also settle on surfaces. Lead oxide (fumes
mixed with air) forms a fine yellowish/brown dust. Even with
good ventilation you have 100% chance of lead dust in your
"Lead Area". Good hygiene and ventilation are the best way to
reduce lead exposure. The main hazard activities involve hot
lead - smelting, casting and handling dross (the contaminate
residue that is skimmed off in the melting process)."
lead hazards - MSU OEM

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]

Vomaturge - 16-4-2019 at 00:01

Quote:

As far as why it burned down now-and not sooner-I'd say that some parts of it were made of materials (e.g. wood) which decompose on exposure to heat and, in air, evolve more heat secondary to that process. In nearly a millennium, this was the first time those materials were exposed, whether by accident or malice, to enough heat, followed by the effect continuing unnoticed and uninterrupted prior to the development of a heat release rate too high to be controlled by the means available on site. This unlucky series of events can sometimes be avoided for long periods of time by chance alone. Think of a huge number of ordinary houses. In all of America

[Quote]0.317% of households experienced a fire in 2010.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that a building with different construction and usage could have a fire accident rate 30 or even 10% of that, with it taking centuries for any given church to be destroyed by fire alone.

There seems to be a textbook example of Poe's law here. Jsum takes roguerose's post at face value. I take it as him outlining those opinions which he believes to be ridiculous.
'Churches never burn down':
http://www.altoonamirror.com/news/local-news/2017/07/firewor...
https://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Wakefield-Church-on-Fi...
https://www.wdio.com/news/lightning-church-piedmont-fire/498...
https://www.foxnews.com/us/fire-engulfs-massachusetts-church...
https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2018/12/20/our-...

Did an Islamic terrorist burn down the Paris Notre Dame Cathedral? Too soon to tell. A sneaky lone-wolf arsonist would not be any more capable of burning a supposedly fire proof building than a reconstruction accident would be. If a guy with 70L of gasoline and access to the wood members could have started the fire, than so could have a truck with a leaky fuel tank.

Regarding what I believe to be a sideways comment regarding a US congress member describing the misdirected portion of the backlash to the September 11 attacks, some people did:
this,this,this,this,this,this,this
this,this,this,this,this,this,
this,this,[Url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre]this[/url],this, and far more than I have time to name.

Some people did all of those things. Some more justified than others, some more evil than others, some on a much larger scale. But no religious group, race, nationality, etc participated in any of these as a whole. If 'a few Russians' or 'a few Buddhists' or 'a few US troops' did one of these things, is it fair to blame the whole? Saying "Some people" does not minimize the tradgedy, but just shows that a small group of people did it and that millions of others (including non Muslims) are being subjected to no-fly-lists, humiliating, sexualized airport "security screenings" unauthorized mass surveillance (Even I should be more careful what I write, I guess), imprisonment without due process, and endless wars waged "to fight terror."

If someone (preferably roguerose himself) can convince me that post really does mean rr thinks the burning of a major historical (and still in use until the fire) place of worship is inconsequential and "to be expected", then I'll still disagree with him, but I will delete my political garbage. And garbage it is-there is a reason I try not to post this kind of stuff on SM.

As far as why the smoke was yellow, maybe a trick of the light? Or an evaporation of some kind of paint or wood treatment? I don't have any good ideas there. If that was all lead compounds, well, lets just say that this might set a record for the worst heavy metal poisoning epidemic in France.

DrP - 16-4-2019 at 00:42

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Actually, RR, this time I think it is you who needs a bit of perspective.
This is an 850 year old building which is old by even Parisian standards. There is a lot of history in those stones. It was considered worthwhile to undertake a many-millions restoration of the building (and not its first in all those centuries). Its loss is a tragedy. Not the same kind of tragedy as a loss of life but a tragedy nonetheless.

Actually I agree with RR here. It is an old building. Paying hundreds of millions to fix it is immoral imo when that money could be used to feed the starving. It's a topsy turvy world when 'christians' want to spend hundreds of millions on a building rather than actually helping people who are alive now and suffering.

Herr Haber - 16-4-2019 at 03:43

Quote: Originally posted by DrP

Mkay... And what if the building by itself generates some cash ? (It does)
Also... I know it's a little far fetch to imagine that people actually travel half the world to see Notre Dame but they do.
And when they do, they usually book a hotel room, visit the Louvres, have breakfast, lunch and for many of them dinner in the neighbouring "Quartier Latin".

In a few words, Notre Dame plays a big part in Paris attractivity abroad and I'll bet it will be fully renovated before the 2024 Olympics.

The comments about the color of the smoke (especially Morgan's) are very interesting.

Edit: One of France's rich and famous just commited 100 M Euros for the cathedral renovation.
Edit2: Another one... with 200M
Is it necessary to say that both are extremely talented venture capitalists ?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Herr Haber]

j_sum1 - 16-4-2019 at 05:00

My comments were architectural and historical rather than religious, political or economic.

I think I would consider it a tragedy if any 12th century building full of art went up in flames.
Whether it is worth the money, or what should be done in the way of restoration: that's another discussion and one that I lack the knowledge to offer much.

But to state or imply, "old building, who cares!" is a bit flippant.

On a chemistry note, 250 tons of molten lead dripping from the roof and upper storeys: that's gotta be a hazard worth respecting.

DrP - 16-4-2019 at 05:19

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

Mkay... And what if the building by itself generates some cash ? (It does)

Yea - Ok - I do get all that, I was playing advocate a little as you mentioned perspective. Where were the people lining up to rebuild the homes of the hundreds who lost everything in the Grenfield tower fire, for example? A guy on the radio this moring was sounding pretty pious about donating 100 million to restore this building... he could have actually helped real people with that money when they needed it the other year when their homes burnt down - where was the 'charity' then?

I get it needs rebuilding. But hundreds of millions of pounds on a religious artefact? The money could improve/save real peoples lives.

This is why I do not like charity - the money goes to whoever the whim of the owner of the cash most wants to support. Tax properly and you will not need charity as the money will be directed to those that really need it by mandate.

Ubya - 16-4-2019 at 05:44

DrP everyone has tge right to decide where to spend their money. some rich guy decided to donate 100M to repair Notre Dam, good for him and that church.
your idea is a bit strange, tax properly and you have the money to fix everything in a country? why not giving up the entire salary then? and just keep the essential to buy food and pay the bills? just giving money to the poor is not the best solution, if someoneis poor it's probably because he has a low salary job or no job at all, by giving him a better opportunity he can earn more. i can bet you here is full of people that lie about disabilities, properties, etc just to pay less and get more by the state. you overestimate people kindness and honesty, give 1000$ a month to a bunch of guys and look how many just stop working because they don't need it anymore.

yea i think the yellow smoke is probably lead oxide, it has the same color of when i smelted some lead dioxide in pure metal using a coal furnace

DrP - 16-4-2019 at 06:16

Quote: Originally posted by Ubya

tax properly and you have the money to fix everything in a country? why not giving up the entire salary then?

A - there'd ne no need
B - it would be unfair to the individual that works harder and earns more... sounds a bit like communism.

Not hard to do the maths and get the tax rates fair and right for all so that none actually need the 'charity' that rich people like give to so they feel righteous and good.

Herr Haber - 16-4-2019 at 06:45

@DrP: if you were raising funds for WWF you'd have an easiest time finding money to save the panda bears than say... to save the Aye-Aye of Madagascar.
Part of the reason is that everybody knows and loves pandas (and everybody knows Notre Dame) but nobody knows nor cares the Aye-Aye (Greenfield Tower) Plus, it's freaking ugly.

I do get your comment about charity. My comments about those 2 donors being also successful VC's implied that they were not only in for the salvation of their souls but certainly for immediate gain aswell.

Amos - 16-4-2019 at 12:25

I think there's some inherent value in something like the Notre Dame well worth investing in. Things that generate awe and wonder and that cause people to WEEP as they burn have value. You could grumble at every person that visits the Louvre or every fan walking into a concert that they could be feeding the hungry instead or demand that national endowments towards arts and culture be stripped of funding, but at the end of the day we need something to make our existence on this rock worth living for.

Morgan - 16-4-2019 at 14:06

The Almacys had been in line to enter Notre Dame earlier in the day but opted to postpone their visit when the time slots for guided tours of the building filled up.

"We thought, 'We'll come back tomorrow,'" said Almacy, who arrived back to Notre Dame with his family shortly after the cathedral's 6:45 p.m. closing time and first noticed smoke from the blaze at approximately 6:50 p.m.

"Initially, there was no frenzy," said Almacy, who added that he did not see any fire engines for approximately 20 to 30 minutes. "There were a lot of sirens and a lot of police vehicles."

The situation became more serious at around 7:30 p.m. when Almacy described seeing "flames shooting out" of the building as "the smoke turned orange, then green, then dark black."

"We didn't know, was it an attack? Was it an accident?" He said. "We decided to move away and let the first responders and law enforcement do their work. Plus, we were having trouble breathing, our lungs were starting to hurt a little bit."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/notre-dame-fire-witness-the-sm...

Mr. Rogers - 17-4-2019 at 12:37

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose

Quote: Originally posted by myr

Right. The Human Experience is nothing but Carbon, Nitrogen, and Oxygen, nothing has meaning, and then you die.

DraconicAcid - 17-4-2019 at 18:05

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose

So the burning of the most famous chruch in the world is really kind of expected (when you have "some people" in your country).

Would you like to clearly state what you mean by this before I misinterpret it?

Morgan - 17-4-2019 at 19:26

"Lead may affect the health of workers if it is in a form that may be inhaled (i.e. airborne particles) or ingested. In order for lead to be a hazard by inhalation, lead particles that are small enough to be inhaled must get into the air. There are three types of particles: dust, fume and mist. Lead dust consists of solid particles created through processes such as blasting, sanding, grinding, and electric or pneumatic cutting. Lead fumes are produced when lead or lead-contaminated materials are heated to temperatures above 500°C, such as welding, high temperature cutting, and burning operations. The heating causes a vapour to be given off and the vapour condenses into solid fume particles. Mists are made up of liquid droplets suspended in air. The spray application of lead-based paint can generate a high concentration of lead-containing mist."
https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/hs/pubs/lead/gl_lead_4....

Twospoons - 17-4-2019 at 21:45

Given that it is/was a catholic cathedral, maybe the Vatican should stump up for the repairs. They're not short of a euro or two.

Morgan - 19-4-2019 at 07:47

Some others interested in the color.
https://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=99674.0

S.C. Wack - 19-4-2019 at 14:49

The govt. would probably like everyone to forget about the lead and any contaminated debris. Do the authorities say soil and blood testing is unnecessary at the site, Paris, and wherever the wind was blowing, or not even that?

unionised - 20-4-2019 at 04:48

About the only thing the colour tells you is that it's not red lead.

Morgan - 20-4-2019 at 08:33

Some perspectives of the lead roof.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/how-much-envi...
https://www.france-voyage.com/visuals/photos/cathedrale-notr...

S.C. Wack - 20-4-2019 at 19:19

Needless? to say, in the USA lead smelting and battery recycling has resulted in vast areas targeted for topsoil removal, contrary to the motherjones "the release of lead into the atmosphere is a fairly minor issue".

Morgan - 20-4-2019 at 21:27

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

Needless? to say, in the USA lead smelting and battery recycling has resulted in vast areas targeted for topsoil removal, contrary to the motherjones "the release of lead into the atmosphere is a fairly minor issue".

The article did seem a bit irreverent/dismissive as to the possibilities of lead dispersal via fire, not even entertaining scenarios.

I found this comment searching for examples of yellow smoke occurrences. But I'm still searching for more information or definitive happenings.. Maybe burn some lead sheeting in a fire or design a simple experiment to make yellow smoke from hot lead?

"Probably is Lead and Zinc, we get high lead heats and it fills the meltshop with a thick yellow cloud. Time to grab the respirators! Don't breathe yellow smoke and don't eat yellow snow. :lol:"
http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-2916.html

S.C. Wack - 21-4-2019 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

About the only thing the colour tells you is that it's not red lead.

Morgan - 23-4-2019 at 18:19

Lead metal in a fire ...
Fire Fighting:
Do not use direct water streams on fires where molten metal is present, due to the risk of a steam explosion that could potentially eject molten metal uncontrollably. Use a fine water mist on the front-running edge of the spill and on the top of the molten metal to cool and solidify it. If possible, move solid material from fire area or cool material exposed to flame to prevent melting of the metal ingots. Highly toxic lead oxide fumes may evolve in fires. Fire fighters must be fully trained and wear full protective clothing including an approved, self-contained breathing apparatus which supplies a positive air pressure within a full face-piece mask.
(From a lead metal safety date sheet PDF Teck Resources)

"PbO may be prepared by heating lead metal in air at approximately 600 °C."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxide

"People may be occupationally exposed to lead(II) oxide dust during its production and use as well as from smelting, refining, and other operations in which metallic lead is heated in the presence of air such as welding and soldering. The greatest potential for high-level occupational exposure is in lead smelting and refining and the most hazardous operations are those in which the metal is brought to high temperatures resulting in vaporization and subsequently fumes containing small, respirable particles(1)."
[(1) USEPA; Air Quality Criteria for Lead EPA 600/8-83-028aF (1986)] **PEER REVIEWED**

[Edited on 24-4-2019 by Morgan]

Mr. Rogers - 25-4-2019 at 20:05

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

About the only thing the colour tells you is that it's not red lead.

Does (red) lead actually put out red smoke? I'm not convinced of that. The whole sky is red in that shot.

That looks like artistic license.

[Edited on 26-4-2019 by Mr. Rogers]

Herr Haber - 26-4-2019 at 04:09

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers

That looks like artistic license.

[Edited on 26-4-2019 by Mr. Rogers]

Much simpler: looking west at the end of the day

barbs09 - 27-4-2019 at 03:22

You don't need to be a christian to appreciate the tragedy of the damage to this structure (opinion)!! Regarding the smoke colour: I've burnt wood in confined chimney scenarios and once hot and oxygen supply is cut off, the destructive distillation of the wood emits a beige coloured fume similar to the yellow colouration from the church. Maybe parts of the roof were hot enough to undergo destructive distillation without combustion releasing the yellow smoke?

Morgan - 27-4-2019 at 08:26

"Onlookers suggested the white smoke was wood burning, while yellow smoke came from melting lead."
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/notre-dame-cath...

"The fire sent large amounts of lead into the air because hundreds of tons of the metal were used in Notre Dame’s frame, as well as the church spire that burned and collapsed."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/lead-from-notre-...

"Paris police have advised residents and shopkeepers around Notre Dame to remove any surface dust they see with wet wipes."
https://globalnews.ca/news/5211337/notre-dame-cathedral-lead...

A "quirky" video but a little after the 8 minute 30 second mark there's a tidbit on the lead roofing thickness and a smoke photo and if you ever wanted to climb Notre Dame around the 12 minute mark, some risk taking.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=K0jNoCF8Wd0

[Edited on 27-4-2019 by Morgan]

S.C. Wack - 27-4-2019 at 11:08

How much of all that money pledged will go towards lead testing and cleanup?

stamasd - 7-5-2019 at 15:23

Huh only found this thread now. I've been sure since the moment I first saw that yellow smoke that it's lead oxide. I have seen lead burn before, it produces exactly this kind of yellow smoke.

Compare with the color of litharge, PbO:

[Edited on 7-5-2019 by stamasd]

Morgan - 7-5-2019 at 17:34

Quote: Originally posted by stamasd

Huh only found this thread now. I've been sure since the moment I first saw that yellow smoke that it's lead oxide. I have seen lead burn before, it produces exactly this kind of yellow smoke.

Compare with the color of litharge, PbO:

[Edited on 7-5-2019 by stamasd]

Blessedly, more support in the file of Notre Dame Smoke being caused by burning lead. Thanks stamasd.
Previously I had suggested someone try burning lead to show yellow smoke can form from burning lead.
If I may ask, under what circumstances did you see lead vaporize into a yellow smoke?

stamasd - 7-5-2019 at 18:53

I was young and stupid and mixed pyrotechnics with heavy metals. That was about 30 years ago. But I remember the yellow smoke like it was yesterday.

Vomaturge - 7-5-2019 at 22:18

Why didn't I think of sharing this earlier? Too busy with my silly rebuttal to roguerose's sarcastic political comment and its unproven accusations of crimes, I guess. How did these hooligans get so much lead oxide, anyhow?

Quote: Originally posted by stamasd

I was young and stupid and mixed pyrotechnics with heavy metals. That was about 30 years ago. But I remember the yellow smoke like it was yesterday.

I can't see the color of the smoke here-because it's inside a dimly lit... college laboratory? Young and stupid's one thing. But these guys should know better, dust mask or otherwise.

stamasd - 8-5-2019 at 02:11

Well the above seems to be a thermite explosion, Al and lead oxide (sold in many parts of the world as pigment especially for anti-corrosive paints). I've done that too. But the experience I was talling about was with actual metallic lead burning. It happens when you put a composition that burns very hot (based on magnesium) inside a lead container.

[Edited on 8-5-2019 by stamasd]

Herr Haber - 19-7-2019 at 07:00

Quote: Originally posted by stamasd

But the experience I was talling about was with actual metallic lead burning. It happens when you put a composition that burns very hot (based on magnesium) inside a lead container.

[Edited on 8-5-2019 by stamasd]

Not exactly the experiment you mention but I have that one planned too.
Yesterday I took out the blowtorch and some lead.

First, I heated the lead with a propane rich flame for 1 minute in a steel mold.
This was inconclusive as after the experiment I had two more grams (analytical scale, mg precision).
There was some soot on the lead because of the flame and some paint chipped from the mold.

Then I took the same lead and heated it with an oxygen rich flame. I distinctly saw some carbon burn but saw no smoke of any kind.
Heat was applied for 2mn30 seconds mostly the tip of the cone.

Some lead certainly boiled off, the soot turned to CO2 and I suppose that the paint burned aswell.
Maybe a few miligrams stayed in the mold aswell.

Anyway, the loss was minimal though it certainly adds up when you are melting tons of the stuff.

Morgan - 19-7-2019 at 15:18

It dawned on me while washing dishes today thinking about how to burn lead, recalling one day when bored, having made pyrophoric iron sealed in a test tube with a waxed cork and the next day seeing it spontaneously catch fire when cold and uncorked and sprinkled in the air - the idea of lead oxalate came to mind. So then I searched the net to read up on lead oxalate.
If you blow this photo up it looks like some yellow smoke using a tartrate to make pyrophoric lead.
http://m-experiments.com/Ekx/material/Pirofornost/Piro%20Pb/...
http://m-experiments.com/Pyrophoric%20Lead.html

pyrophoric lead demo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=jJAe6dhkmn0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxalate

'You don't want to make a lot of lead."
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ByDY1cv5-UA

[Edited on 20-7-2019 by Morgan]

Morgan - 13-8-2019 at 11:49

"As the smoke’s yellow tinge suggested, lead was also vaporized, creating what Robin Des Bois called a “toxic fallout” of lead dust that was deposited downwind."
https://www.wired.com/story/the-notre-dame-fire-spread-toxic...

"Due to Fear Over Lead Poisoning, Notre Dame Cathedral’s Restoration Is Delayed – Paris authorities are rushing to decontaminate the area surrounding Notre Dame so that work on the fire-ravaged cathedral can resume. The restoration, which was halted in mid-July, was due to restart this week, but has now been pushed back to August 19. After weeks of denial, officials admitted that high levels of lead particles had been found in the area. The contamination could pose a risk to workers as well as children and pregnant women. Now, authorities have stepped up a deep clean of nearby schools and of the square in front of the cathedral. But they have rejected calls to cover the entire cathedral with protective cladding to contain the particles, arguing that the job would be too costly and complex. (AFP)"
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/art-industry-news-august-1...

[Edited on 13-8-2019 by Morgan]

Herr Haber - 26-8-2019 at 02:11

0.1g to 0.4g of tetraethyl lead / liter of gasoline.
0.25 g on average means 165mg of elemental lead / liter.

It looks to me people should be more concerned about what they put in their cars than burning cathedrals...

Morgan - 26-8-2019 at 10:25

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

0.1g to 0.4g of tetraethyl lead / liter of gasoline.
0.25 g on average means 165mg of elemental lead / liter.

It looks to me people should be more concerned about what they put in their cars than burning cathedrals...

Seems whether lead in gasoline, or in the proximity of Notre Dame, or in the water, all sources should be of concern, all pollution having a cumulative effect. In the 80's I drove into Los Angeles and there was an iridescent blue and green layer of smog above the city making it look like a science fiction book cover. When walking in Beverly Hills you could see the air pollution like a fog. My eyes were burning and tearing. I couldn't imagine how people could live like that if you had the money, why not find a healthier place.

Tidbit
Aviation gasoline
"TEL remains an ingredient of 100 octane avgas for piston-engine aircraft. The current formulation of 100LL (low lead, blue) aviation gasoline contains 2.12 grams of TEL per gallon, half the amount of the previous 100/130 (green) octane avgas (at 4.24 grams per gallon),[56] but only slightly less than the 2.2 grams per gallon historically permitted in automotive leaded gasoline and substantially greater than the allowed 0.001 grams per gallon in automotive unleaded gasoline sold in the United States today.[57] The United States Environmental Protection Agency, FAA, and others are working on economically feasible replacements for leaded avgas, which still releases 100 tons of lead every year.[58] Children living near airports servicing small (piston-engine) aircraft have slightly higher concentrations of lead in their blood.[59]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead

unionised - 26-8-2019 at 11:21

If the yellow smoke is anything to go by, someone must have put a lead roof on the Amazon rainforest.

karlos³ - 26-8-2019 at 11:49

The amazon fire is every year again in the dry season usually, but this time it was lighted by NGO people to cause international interest.

Corrosive Joeseph - 26-8-2019 at 15:11

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

Leaded petrol has been banned for over 20 years.

The story of tetraethyl lead is quite a fascinating one actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead

/CJ

Morgan - 26-8-2019 at 20:31

"There’s still lead in your unleaded gasoline — and it may be putting kids at risk"
https://thinkprogress.org/theres-still-lead-in-your-unleaded...

unionised - 27-8-2019 at 13:20

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

The amazon fire is every year again in the dry season usually, but this time it was lighted by NGO people to cause international interest.

Do you have any evidence for that slander?

Pyro_cat - 27-8-2019 at 21:25

“Who Will Invade Brazil to Save the Amazon?”, Asks U.S. Magazine Foreign Policy
For Harvard professor Stephen M. Walt, "it's only a matter of time" before the international community intervenes in the largest tropical forest in the world. And since Brazil isn’t a true great power, threatening it with either economic sanctions or even the use of force might be feasible.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/05/who-will-invade-brazil-...

I think the world should do it . Stop selling them chainsaws and have the military destroy all the bridges the logging trucks use.

Herr Haber - 28-8-2019 at 04:10

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph

Leaded petrol has been banned for over 20 years.

The story of tetraethyl lead is quite a fascinating one actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead

/CJ

"Petrol" Ah, looks like you're in the UK where leaded gas has been banned for 20 years as you say

Some countries still uses leaded gasoline though as do some aviation engines. Tetraethyl lead seems to be the main contributor to lead pollution in the air.

Anyway, it is quite amazing the amount of lead that was released with just a tankfull.

Morgan - 28-8-2019 at 06:33

Piston aircraft fuel and resulting car fuel contamination ...

"Despite the widespread belief that the federal government banned lead from automotive gasoline two decades ago, a little known federal regulation allows unleaded gasoline to contain trace amounts of the toxic metal. Experts say it contributes to environmental contamination and harms children, particularly those living in traffic-congested urban areas."

"The regulation doesn’t allow lead to be added intentionally to gasoline, but does permit unleaded gasoline for motor vehicles to contain up to .05 grams of lead per gallon. This is to account for accidental cross-contamination with lead in the gasoline distribution system, which may carry leaded aviation gasoline via the same pipeline, according to a spokeswoman for the Environmental Protection Agency [EPA]."

“If you’re talking about .05 grams per gallon, that’s one heck of a lot of lead when you pay attention to the number of gallons being consumed,” said Mielke, an urban geochemistry and health expert who teaches in the department of pharmacology at Tulane University’s School of Medicine.
https://thinkprogress.org/theres-still-lead-in-your-unleaded...

unionised - 31-7-2020 at 10:18

Well, they found some of the lead.
But not enough to worry about.
https://www.technologynetworks.com/applied-sciences/news/lea...