Sciencemadness Discussion Board

alcohol free beer

aeacfm - 26-10-2010 at 03:04

simply ,
can we reach with alcohol content in beer to ZERO % ?
i am talking from applied , commercial points of view ?

Random - 26-10-2010 at 03:28

If beer would have no alcohol, then it wouldn't be beer ;)

ScienceSquirrel - 26-10-2010 at 03:46

There are quite a few alcohol free beers on the market.
They are generally made by fermenting out a low alcohol beer, say 2-3.5% ABV, the alcohol is then removed by reverse osmosis.
There may be some residual alcohol in the beer, say 0.1% but this can be ignored for practical purposes. Very ripe grapes, etc may contain very small amounts of alcohol.

bquirky - 26-10-2010 at 05:02

sounds as refreshing as a water free shower :)

mr.crow - 26-10-2010 at 06:39

It sounds like the OP is looking for beer he is allowed to drink for Muslim reasons. I looked on google and there is an Egyptian company called Al Ahram Beverages Company that makes non-alcoholic beer, that should be halal enough.

aeacfm - 26-10-2010 at 07:08

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow  
It sounds like the OP is looking for beer he is allowed to drink for Muslim reasons. I looked on google and there is an Egyptian company called Al Ahram Beverages Company that makes non-alcoholic beer, that should be halal enough.


aha , you get what i want
i want to know if that what it buy to us is alcohol free or not ?
i think in any case alcohol must generated due to fermentation !!!

i am talking about zero%


[Edited on 26-10-2010 by aeacfm]

aeacfm - 26-10-2010 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by bquirky  
sounds as refreshing as a water free shower :)



not every water shower is refreshing

:cool:

[Edited on 26-10-2010 by aeacfm]

ScienceSquirrel - 26-10-2010 at 08:32

It seems that you can make a totally alcohol free beer but it should be noted that a lot are just very low in alcohol.
You could drink litres without becoming intoxicated at all, here is a representative selection;


http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=2_12&...

MagicJigPipe - 26-10-2010 at 09:14


Quote:

aha , you get what i want i want to know if that what it buy to us is alcohol free or not ? i think in any case alcohol must generated due to fermentation !!! i am talking about zero%


Please note that "0%" is something that is next to impossible with ANYTHING. Even the most analytically pure chemicals contain greater than 0% of contaminants. Even things like milk, bread, potato chips etc... are likely to contain at least one molecule of EtOH. Why? Think of how many atoms there are. Now think of how many molecules. These billions of different organic molecules are interacting with eachother millions of times a second. It seems to me that if there are ethyl, ethylene, ethyne etc... groups present (and O2), there will be at least one molecule of EtOH. Am I right on this?

Actually, it is likely that if Islam doesn't allow the intake of ANY EtOH you and probably every other Muslim is violating this every day. What is the punishment for this? Would this cause a genocide?

http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/10/925/2010/acpd-10-9...



Attachment: Atmospheric Ethanol Budget.pdf (876kB)
This file has been downloaded 823 times


mr.crow - 26-10-2010 at 10:12

You need to drink a lot of ethanol to feel it, at which point you have been "poisoned". One beer will have ~17mL of ethanol in it, and you could easily drink over 100mL of EtOH in a night and the liver will take care of it nicely. Depending on your heritage of course, my liver was evolved in Scotland and Eastern Europe ;)

I did another google search and Islam prohibits being intoxicated and therefore intoxicating substances even in moderation.

I claim that alcohol free beer is not intoxicating so it will be OK to drink. I'm sure you can find an Imam that will agree with this.

Just like how Aspartame has methanol in it but is non-toxic, or how poppy seed bagels have morphine in them. Decaff coffee has caffiene but won't get you wired, etc.

Mr. Wizard - 26-10-2010 at 11:57

As a previous post noted, even grapes have some alcohol, as does bread.
I won't get into the differences between consuming trace amounts of alcohol, and 100% alcohol free vegetable products, if there is such a thing.

It appears you won't be drinking any beer.

I wonder if vegetarians worry about bugs and bacteria in their food? ;)

Vogelzang - 26-10-2010 at 12:32

I bought alcohol free brew a lot of times. The word "beer" can't be found on any of the bottles, but it does come in bottles that look a lot like beer bottles and they come in 6 packs. They taste similar to beer, but the alcohol taste isn't there. Its almost like watered down beer with more flavor.

psychokinetic - 26-10-2010 at 15:19

You've got more alcohol in your body than is made by fermentation of 'zero' alc beer ;)

I understand your predicament though, but unfortunately with the scientific knowledge that we have now (that wasn't around in such depth as when the rules were written), we now know that fermentation and alcohol production is pretty unavoidable.

That said, if your reasons for zero alcohol are for Allah, then I'm sure He'll be proud of you for being considerate and thoughtful. Many Muslim folk I know who live here in NZ, a western country, have encountered times when they have done something that Allah would disapprove of. The point being that they didn't know, and apologised profusely... or sometimes it was a case of there not being an alternative. Much better than just being an arsehole and drinking vodka off a pig with your left hand (unfortunately I know some people who would do that and not see the problem with it, while still claiming to be devout).

So really, an alcohol free beer that had alcohol as a part of production is probably the best you can get. At least you try :)

Tsjerk - 26-10-2010 at 15:56

In the Netherlands there is a company, Bavaria, who has invented a way to produce "beer" without having alcohol in it at any point. They sell it as 0% Bavaria.

I don't know the method they use but it probably pops up using Google.

zed - 26-10-2010 at 16:25

I'm in the US. Here, non-alcoholic beer does contain a small amount of ethanol.

Enough alcohol, that some doctors suggest that folks with liver problems should eschew NA beer completely.

An Arab acquaintance, once conveyed to me, that NA beer is considered OK in most of the Arab world.

It might not pass muster in Mecca, but it would be considered a reasonable way to wet your whistle in Abba Dabi.

At any rate, the better NA beers, taste pretty good. In contrast, NA wine, is markedly inferior in taste, to drinking your own urine.

aeacfm - 26-10-2010 at 21:26

Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe  


Please note that "0%" is something that is next to impossible with ANYTHING. Even the most analytically pure chemicals contain greater than 0% of contaminants. Even things like milk, bread, potato chips etc... are likely to contain at least one molecule of EtOH. Why? Think of how many atoms there are. Now think of how many molecules. These billions of different organic molecules are interacting with eachother millions of times a second. It seems to me that if there are ethyl, ethylene, ethyne etc... groups present (and O2), there will be at least one molecule of EtOH. Am I right on this?

Actually, it is likely that if Islam doesn't allow the intake of ANY EtOH you and probably every other Muslim is violating this every day. What is the punishment for this? Would this cause a genocide?



you said what i believe in , as previuosly i said no free alcohol like that no smart ideal thing.

aeacfm - 26-10-2010 at 22:03

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow  
You need to drink a lot of ethanol to feel it, at which point you have been "poisoned". One beer will have ~17mL of ethanol in it, and you could easily drink over 100mL of EtOH in a night and the liver will take care of it nicely. Depending on your heritage of course, my liver was evolved in Scotland and Eastern Europe ;)

I did another google search and Islam prohibits being intoxicated and therefore intoxicating substances even in moderation.

I claim that alcohol free beer is not intoxicating so it will be OK to drink. I'm sure you can find an Imam that will agree with this.

Just like how Aspartame has methanol in it but is non-toxic, or how poppy seed bagels have morphine in them. Decaff coffee has caffiene but won't get you wired, etc.


you must see driving limits in europe it is lower than what you said


http://www.safetravel.co.uk/EuropeDrinkDrivingLimits.html


the driver said to be intoxicated if he exceed these limits , this is the first
the other thing you can read more about the effect of alcohol ;

http://www.britishlivertrust.org.uk/home/the-liver/liver-dis...


have a nice day
:D

[Edited on 27-10-2010 by aeacfm]

aeacfm - 26-10-2010 at 22:15

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
You've got more alcohol in your body than is made by fermentation of 'zero' alc beer ;)

I understand your predicament though, but unfortunately with the scientific knowledge that we have now (that wasn't around in such depth as when the rules were written), we now know that fermentation and alcohol production is pretty unavoidable.

That said, if your reasons for zero alcohol are for Allah, then I'm sure He'll be proud of you for being considerate and thoughtful. Many Muslim folk I know who live here in NZ, a western country, have encountered times when they have done something that Allah would disapprove of. The point being that they didn't know, and apologised profusely... or sometimes it was a case of there not being an alternative. Much better than just being an arsehole and drinking vodka off a pig with your left hand (unfortunately I know some people who would do that and not see the problem with it, while still claiming to be devout).

So really, an alcohol free beer that had alcohol as a part of production is probably the best you can get. At least you try :)


thank you for your Respectable reply
that is the reason why i ask ? it is for Allah ?why not ?Allah worth more than this many times ...
about these people if they cant find the alternative the can drink schweppes
;)

aeacfm - 26-10-2010 at 22:30

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
I'm in the US. Here, non-alcoholic beer does contain a small amount of ethanol.

Enough alcohol, that some doctors suggest that folks with liver problems should eschew NA beer completely.

An Arab acquaintance, once conveyed to me, that NA beer is considered OK in most of the Arab world.

It might not pass muster in Mecca, but it would be considered a reasonable way to wet your whistle in Abba Dabi.

At any rate, the better NA beers, taste pretty good. In contrast, NA wine, is markedly inferior in taste, to drinking your own urine.


Mecca has its own products which are Halal

[Edited on 27-10-2010 by aeacfm]

psychokinetic - 27-10-2010 at 00:25

I'd be interested to know if there are any non-alcoholic beers sold in Mecca, and if so, what the general take on the potential alcohol content is.

bquirky - 27-10-2010 at 01:06

Surely there is ethanol produced inside the body in measurable amounts regardless of what you eat or drink. Ive heared numerous times that accatone is one of the chemicals in bad breath.

If the rule is don't drink alcoholic beverages then surley trying to get around it by drinking deliberatly reduced alcohol beer is against the 'spirit' (no pun intended) if not the letter of the rule

an irelivent but amusing point is that a homeopath whould argue that the water can 'remember' that it has been in contact with alcohol.

aeacfm - 27-10-2010 at 02:41

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
I'd be interested to know if there are any non-alcoholic beers sold in Mecca, and if so, what the general take on the potential alcohol content is.


like what i write above Mecca has its own beverage's products
they are like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca-Cola
but about the beer i dont know much about it

thanks again

[Edited on 27-10-2010 by aeacfm]

zed - 27-10-2010 at 07:12

Hey, the nifty beverage to drink during a visit to Mecca, comes from the ancient well near the Kaaba.

Reputedly, Zem Zem (or Zam Zam) has never failed, since its discovery 4000 years ago.

According to legend, it dates from the time of Abraham. It is alluded to, in The Old Testament, but perhaps not by name.


Ramiel - 27-10-2010 at 07:53

As an Australian, I find this whole thread offensive.

I'm glad that you asked this questions at scimadness, where we are all impartial men (and women) of science. I'm afraid that if you'd asked at a beer brewing site you'd be shouted out.

But seriously, could you just brew the malt flavoured drink in aerobic conditions? Yeast only produces alcohol in anaerobic conditions as far as I know.

I don't know if you've brewed before, but this aerobic environment will be extremely difficult to maintain: you will need to constantly percolate air or oxygen containing medium through and this air must be perfectly sterile. Sterility (save for the yeasties) is the most important factor in a tasty beer I reckon. How about a lightly oxidising salt? I can't think of one which won't oxidise the crap out of the rest of the brew.

Unfortunately, oxidation of beer gives it a distinctly wet-cardboard flavour or so I have found (not to mention the acetic acid, which you will not be troubled with, there being no alcohol to start with!).

ScienceSquirrel - 27-10-2010 at 08:39

The fermentation under anaerobic conditions does not just produce alcohol and carbon dioxide but also modifies the brew in a lot of other ways to produce taste components.
One of the big Science Squirrel Labs projects is a working 9 Imperial gallon ( 41 litre ) microbrewery which includes a 60 litre boiler and a 45 litre mash tun.
I am planning on posting some photos in the my lab section some time. :D

psychokinetic - 27-10-2010 at 12:02

As a non Australian, I'm confused as to what your Australian-ness has to do with the offensiveness or not of a Muslim dude asking about non alcoholic beer, Ramiel.

Can't wait to see those, ScienceSquirrel :D

Magpie - 27-10-2010 at 12:14

Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm  

i am talking about zero%


How many zeros after the decimal point do you require? If the answer is an infinite amount, then no, it's not possible.

Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm  

i think in any case alcohol must generated due to fermentation !!!


Yes, no matter how you processes it beer from fermentation will have ethanol, more or less. I don't think it would be economical to get even 1 zero past the decimal point.

An anecdote: I once took a bottle of O'Douls beer ("alcohol free") to work as a gift for another engineer's birthday party. The operations manager found out about it and I was mildly rebuked - some of this was a power trip, I think. He explained that there was still some alcohol in the beer so we could be criticized by upper management. That's one of the reasons I never wanted to go into management.

[Edited on 27-10-2010 by Magpie]

aeacfm - 28-10-2010 at 04:49

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Hey, the nifty beverage to drink during a visit to Mecca, comes from the ancient well near the Kaaba.

Reputedly, Zem Zem (or Zam Zam) has never failed, since its discovery 4000 years ago.

According to legend, it dates from the time of Abraham. It is alluded to, in The Old Testament, but perhaps not by name.



no i am just talking about beverages not the Zam-Zam water also there is Zam Zam cola but i think it is iranian
any way the name zam Zam like this :

(( NAMES OF ZAMZAM )) : (( NAMES OF ZAMZAM )) REASON OF THE NAME : ZAMZAM WATER IS CLLED “ZAMZAM” BECAUSE OF ITS HUGE MUCH WATER. SOME OTHER PEOPLE SAY THAT BECAUSE IT GATHERS. AND THE OTHER PARTY SAYS THAT BECAUSE HAJAR SAID “ZAM, ZAM” WHICH MEANS COLLECT. NAMES OF ZAMZAM : THE DRINK OF ISMAEL FROM ALLAH THE MISTRESS THE BLESSING THE USEFUL THE TIDINGS THE PURE THE PREVENTION THE FAULTLESS THE FORTUNATE THE BLESSED THE ENOUGH THE HEALTHY THE NOURISHMENT THE CLEAN THE POTABLE AND TOO MANY OTHER NAMES. Exit STORY OF ZAMZAM VERSE HADITH NAMES OF ZAMZAM ETIQUETTE THE BEST WATER SCINTFIC ANALYSIS

aeacfm - 28-10-2010 at 05:00

Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel  
As an Australian, I find this whole thread offensive.

I'm glad that you asked this questions at scimadness, where we are all impartial men (and women) of science. I'm afraid that if you'd asked at a beer brewing site you'd be shouted out.

But seriously, could you just brew the malt flavoured drink in aerobic conditions? Yeast only produces alcohol in anaerobic conditions as far as I know.

I don't know if you've brewed before, but this aerobic environment will be extremely difficult to maintain: you will need to constantly percolate air or oxygen containing medium through and this air must be perfectly sterile. Sterility (save for the yeasties) is the most important factor in a tasty beer I reckon. How about a lightly oxidising salt? I can't think of one which won't oxidise the crap out of the rest of the brew.

Unfortunately, oxidation of beer gives it a distinctly wet-cardboard flavour or so I have found (not to mention the acetic acid, which you will not be troubled with, there being no alcohol to start with!).


i asked this question here because i know here full experienced people who will exactly give me the right answer , i am not attacking any body or any association
ok , thats must be clear ( I AM ASKING SCIENTIFIC QUESTION )in scientific words the case here is neutral

the second thing i know that even anaerobicyeasts or bacteria has is not net zero air or in other word it has atolerance of oxygen or air i think this tolerance will give it the ability to make fermentation

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by aeacfm]

Ramiel - 28-10-2010 at 09:29

Okay relax.

In days past I might have played along with you... Australians are a great beer drinking nation. We have the 4th highest per capita consumption of beer in the world. I was just joking that I found the corruption of something so sacrosanct offensive... much like someone of a religious persuasion might. Didn't the "seriously though..." segue tip you off?

In all honesty, all the best of luck with your alcohol-free malt flavoured beverage.

edit:
Yes, the yeast typically used to brew alcohol does tolerate aerobic conditions very well. It will just multiply until it has used up all the oxygen or food. The problem now seems to be that the yeast won't turn the food into flavour, as it does in anaerobic conditions.

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by Ramiel]

aeacfm - 28-10-2010 at 11:06

Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel  
Okay relax.

In days past I might have played along with you... Australians are a great beer drinking nation. We have the 4th highest per capita consumption of beer in the world. I was just joking that I found the corruption of something so sacrosanct offensive... much like someone of a religious persuasion might. Didn't the "seriously though..." segue tip you off?

In all honesty, all the best of luck with your alcohol-free malt flavoured beverage.

edit:
Yes, the yeast typically used to brew alcohol does tolerate aerobic conditions very well. It will just multiply until it has used up all the oxygen or food. The problem now seems to be that the yeast won't turn the food into flavour, as it does in anaerobic conditions.

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by Ramiel]


ok buddy
i understand you

Mr. Wizard - 28-10-2010 at 11:22

Shouldn't this be moving to the whimsy area now? It seems it has less to do with chemistry and more to do with somebody's religious preferences.

psychokinetic - 28-10-2010 at 12:19

Sounds to be about beer drinking.

aeacfm - 28-10-2010 at 12:59

the gist here is that:
- alcohol is going to be formed due to the fermentation which occure due to yeasts or bacteria .

- the amount of alcohol formed is controled by the air or oxygen tolerence of these prokaryotes

am i right here ?

peach - 28-10-2010 at 13:12

I don't think it'd be against Halal to have TRACE quantities of alcohol present, e.g. way below 1%. Particularly if you put effort into removing as much alcohol as possible.

The idea, as I understand it, is that you shouldn't be purposefully blurring your mind, because it's not a positive thing; drinking it to get drunk.

If you've stripped as much from it as you possibly can from an already low percentage drink, that seems to be in the spirit of the idea to me.

As I sit here sipping my 5% Stella pint cans, I can still see the reasoning behind that idea. I would miss having nice icy cool, relaxing beers. But, if I'd been brought up being told I shouldn't do that and that I should find some other, more productive way of relaxing, I expect I wouldn't. I didn't crave beer when I was young. I've just become lazy in my methods of relaxing.

You'll basically never manage to get even a litre of alcohol to have 0 molecules of ethanol in it, even if you have a big factory making it.

I don't think Allah cares too much about parts per trillion, it's the idea behind it. You're talking about very low percentage alcohols to start with and then about removing as much of that as possible.

An easy way to do this would be to vacuum distill the beer, which will strip pretty much all of the ethanol away. The vacuum breaks the water / alcohol azeotrope, which is usually only a problem with high concentration alcohols anyway.

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by peach]

zed - 28-10-2010 at 17:47

O'Doul's Dark is a pretty tasty NA beer. And, despite the absence of alcohol, it is a relaxing brew. Hops, the beer flavoring, is itself a relaxant. Makes a nice tea. Seems to aid in lactation too.

Hops can also be stuffed into a bed pillow, to help to induce sleep.

As for alcohol consumption; it is impossible to completely avoid it. The very air we breath is full of organisms that start making alcohol, when given carbohydrates, water, and the slightest opportunity.

Generally speaking, making your best effort to remove all alcohol from NA beer should be considered good enough.

The prohibition against consuming alcohol, is aimed at preventing the terrible behavior that intoxication may produce.

Here in the West, when violent acts are committed, about 80% of the time, significant alcohol or drug use is a factor.



[Edited on 29-10-2010 by zed]

psychokinetic - 28-10-2010 at 21:24

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
O'Doul's Dark is a pretty tasty NA beer. And, despite the absence of alcohol, it is a relaxing brew. Hops, the beer flavoring, is itself a relaxant. Makes a nice tea. Seems to aid in lactation too.



Got a cloth?

ScienceSquirrel - 29-10-2010 at 03:56

Quote: Originally posted by peach  

An easy way to do this would be to vacuum distill the beer, which will strip pretty much all of the ethanol away. The vacuum breaks the water / alcohol azeotrope, which is usually only a problem with high concentration alcohols anyway.



Vacuum distillation has been and still may be used but the current favoured method is reverse osmosis.
There are a lot of other volatile substances in beer that contribute to aroma and flavour.
They are present in only trace amounts but their presence is vital, vacuum distillation removes them and changes the drink by a lot.

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

peach - 29-10-2010 at 04:36

That's true, it likely would make it taste funny.

Where might he get a suitable membrane for that in the kinds of quantities he'll need though? That's not an arsehole question, I'm actually interested as I haven't looked into that myself.

aeacfm - 29-10-2010 at 06:36

Quote: Originally posted by peach  


As I sit here sipping my 5% Stella pint cans, I can still see the reasoning behind that idea. I would miss having nice icy cool, relaxing beers. But, if I'd been brought up being told I shouldn't do that and that I should find some other, more productive way of relaxing, I expect I wouldn't. I didn't crave beer when I was young. I've just become lazy in my methods of relaxing.

I don't think Allah cares too much about parts per trillion, it's the idea behind it. You're talking about very low percentage alcohols to start with and then about removing as much of that as possible.


[Edited on 28-10-2010 by peach]

aha , thats your opinion about that , i m asking about different thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ScienceSquirrel - 29-10-2010 at 07:25

Quote: Originally posted by peach  
That's true, it likely would make it taste funny.

Where might he get a suitable membrane for that in the kinds of quantities he'll need though? That's not an arsehole question, I'm actually interested as I haven't looked into that myself.



There is plenty of literature on the subject. There are brewing suppliers that would sell a complete rig and membranes etc. I think it would be quite pricey though. Here is a paper that discusses a suitable method.

http://www.desline.com/articoli/7861.pdf

mr.crow - 29-10-2010 at 10:04

I think we need a Friday Night Drinking Thread

peach - 29-10-2010 at 13:54

Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm  

aha , thats your opinion about that , i m asking about different thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well, since you're going to get picky about it, I'll get picky too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the facts.

Zed is entirely correct.

You can essentially forget this idea altogether.

He is also correct that there WILL be alcohol molecules in pretty much anything organic you eat or drink.

The yeast cells are everywhere, in the air, water, food products.

Unless you're willing to live in a HEPA filtered clean room drinking boiled, membrane filtered water and eating synthetic sugar, you're consuming molecules of alcohol whether you like it or not.

Trying to remove every single molecule of contaminant from something is impossible. Labs spend billions trying to do this with the most advanced equipment available, and can't. There is no chemical available that is 100% pure.

Alcohol is a natural part of life, it's the yeast trying to live, which I would assume Allah designed for. Purposefully getting drunk is not the same thing.

{edit}Actually, there is a way to do this. If you build you own mass spectroscopy unit and have it filter individual molecules one by one, it'll work. Then, when you pick up your lunch, you'll consume the alcohol molecules again. So you'll need to do it with everything (including the air you inhale). Good luck. ;)

{double edit}I just had a read of the Qur'an on this and it doesn't say anything about the drink needing to be 100% free of alcohol molecules, it simply says 'strong' or 'intoxicating' drinks. Meaning, if you can get the levels of alcohol down to those that are found in naturally occurring water, foods and so on, that's not an intoxicating drink, as those things aren't forbidden by Halal. The use of the words 'strong' and 'intoxicating' suggest something specifically brewed to contain alcohol and get someone drunk. It doesn't say, anything with any alcohol in it.

When the Qur'an was written, it was around the time people had begun mass producing alcohols and using them on a regular basis to get drunk. I strongly suspect that element of Halal is related to saying "That's not what you should be doing to yourself" (purposefully brewing and drinking something like that), not "A molecule of ethanol is evil".

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by peach]

aeacfm - 29-10-2010 at 15:43

Quote: Originally posted by peach  
]

Well, since you're going to get picky about it, I'll get picky too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the facts.

Zed is entirely correct.

You can essentially forget this idea altogether.

He is also correct that there WILL be alcohol molecules in pretty much anything organic you eat or drink.

The yeast cells are everywhere, in the air, water, food products.

Unless you're willing to live in a HEPA filtered clean room drinking boiled, membrane filtered water and eating synthetic sugar, you're consuming molecules of alcohol whether you like it or not.

Trying to remove every single molecule of contaminant from something is impossible. Labs spend billions trying to do this with the most advanced equipment available, and can't. There is no chemical available that is 100% pure.

Alcohol is a natural part of life, it's the yeast trying to live, which I would assume Allah designed for. Purposefully getting drunk is not the same thing.

{edit}Actually, there is a way to do this. If you build you own mass spectroscopy unit and have it filter individual molecules one by one, it'll work. Then, when you pick up your lunch, you'll consume the alcohol molecules again. So you'll need to do it with everything (including the air you inhale). Good luck. ;)

{double edit}I just had a read of the Qur'an on this and it doesn't say anything about the drink needing to be 100% free of alcohol molecules, it simply says 'strong' or 'intoxicating' drinks. Meaning, if you can get the levels of alcohol down to those that are found in naturally occurring water, foods and so on, that's not an intoxicating drink, as those things aren't forbidden by Halal. The use of the words 'strong' and 'intoxicating' suggest something specifically brewed to contain alcohol and get someone drunk. It doesn't say, anything with any alcohol in it.

When the Qur'an was written, it was around the time people had begun mass producing alcohols and using them on a regular basis to get drunk. I strongly suspect that element of Halal is related to saying "That's not what you should be doing to yourself" (purposefully brewing and drinking something like that), not "A molecule of ethanol is evil".

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by peach]


- i said it before and i will repeat again i am asking scientific question or the case here is neutral , i am not talking about my religion or other.

- to finish this buddy , i will give you some thing i hope my broken english language help me to make you smile .


- before i asked i didnt know that alcohol is goingto be fromed and i knew it now ??? ok ??? i got what i want .
- islamic Canons is not by your opinion or my opinion or other there is procedure and specific ways tell you to do it or to do this thing or not to do it.it is not like if i want to sleep ok i will sleep (this is not your own world and many people living beside you and may what you see oh it is so bad , it may be so good to others ) , but every thing is regulated in the way that make you do every thing in the right way and by the way you can do by what you own of your abilities and this is the mercy of islam that give you the way that you can deal with out Stresses but he ask you to do it by lovely way.


- many rules are summarized in quran but its amount and its way is outlined by Hadith.


- when the quran written no body was drinking any thing (i hope what you read is from documented source ) as the alcohol drinking was forbidden by Quran many years before .


- Allah will forgive you about what any thing (not drinking alcohol) you do it if you was not learning or was not intended.
any way , i Benefited too much from this great forum.

have anice day buddy

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by aeacfm]

psychokinetic - 29-10-2010 at 17:23

The Islamic canon is what I was wondering about re; any non alcoholic beers that may be produced in say, Mecca.

aeacfm - 30-10-2010 at 03:31

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
The Islamic canon is what I was wondering about re; any non alcoholic beers that may be produced in say, Mecca.


i am sorry but i cant understand you ???

psychokinetic - 30-10-2010 at 12:42

Islamic canon is a law unto itself, and the people in charge of it dictate what the devout can and cannot do, right?

So I was wondering what the official stance on alcohol free beers was. If the top dudes say it's ok.... then it's ok, right?

phlogiston - 30-10-2010 at 12:43

It should be possible to reduce the alcohol content of beer to virtually zero and keep it there by adding purified (recombinant) alcohol dehydrogenase and its cofactor NAD+. It would be an expensive beer, and it remains to be seen how it affects the taste. Even if the enzyme and the NAD+ don't taste bad, the taste of the alcohol itself is an important component of normal beer and I suspect you need to add compounds to substitute for it.
Also, the resulting acetaldehyde can't be good for you. Perhaps adding aldehyde dehydrogenase as well wouldn't be a bad idea.

aeacfm - 30-10-2010 at 17:31

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
Islamic canon is a law unto itself, and the people in charge of it dictate what the devout can and cannot do, right?

So I was wondering what the official stance on alcohol free beers was. If the top dudes say it's ok.... then it's ok, right?


yes

psychokinetic - 30-10-2010 at 18:00

So if they say it is ok, then I don't see the problem. Alcohol free beer is full of Islamic win! :D

aeacfm - 30-10-2010 at 18:29

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
So if they say it is ok, then I don't see the problem. Alcohol free beer is full of Islamic win! :D


- may be i ddnt understand you or you cant understand me , thats first ;)

- i didnt say that beer in islam tell you to to drink beer or any other drink must be zero.

- islm consider the human abiltiies and respect it.


- limits of drinking to be intoxicant also may be contolled by limits i specified before some thing like driving limits.

not like what you said that , alcohol free beer is full of islamic wine.

aeacfm - 30-10-2010 at 18:30

i repeat the limit is not ZERO!!!! i hope u understand

[Edited on 31-10-2010 by aeacfm]

peach - 31-10-2010 at 04:08

aeacfm, you have to believe I'm not trying to do down religion, I'm just assuming you want beer that adheres to Halal and that means I have to reference what the texts say about it.

It is my interpretation of it, but then, saying it should contain no molecules of alcohol is also an interpretation.

If it meant, to be entirely free of alcohol molecules, it would surely have been easy to say "no traces of alcohol", or something similar; "absolutely free of alcohol", "drinks must be as pure as water".

The way it says "strong" and "intoxicating" drinks, would seem to be talking about drinks designed to get you drunk right?

Again, I'm not trying to say this is stupid or you're wrong to want it without alcohol in it, I'm only trying to work out what is okay and what isn't. As you've heard, it's basically impossible to remove all of it from anything (water included), people didn't have spectroscopy when the Quran was written, so that must mean there is some quantity that is not considered against Halal, or everyone would have been breaking it since the text was written.

"Strong" and "intoxicating" I think I am more correct in meaning, a.) something you've brewed to get drunk or that will easily make you drunk, b.) drinking enough of it that you do get drunk.

If you remove 99%+ of the alcohol from beer, you've tried hard to get rid of all the alcohol, you're approaching the limits of what is physically possible and you'd have to drink buckets of it (literally) to even start feeling drunk.

We are talking about absolutely minute quantities of alcohol, not Western 'weak beer' standards, it will be getting close to water in terms of the alcohol content.

I don't mean to offend you, so I hope I haven't,
John

[Edited on 31-10-2010 by peach]

Mr. Wizard - 31-10-2010 at 06:39

Here you are in the general chemistry section discussing religion and trying to reason with someone about their religion. I suggest once again this be moved to Whimsey. The discussion is not about beer, it's about discussing his religion. Wake up.

Magpie - 31-10-2010 at 12:49

This is not a discussion. It's a comic opera in 3 parts. Enjoy your box seat! ;)

psychokinetic - 31-10-2010 at 14:31

Win, not wine.

About religion it may be, Mr Wizard, but it is only thus to discover what level of alcohol and preparation is required. Sheesh.

Like what Peach is saying up there, there is so little alcohol in it that' it's minute, but I'm getting mixed messages as to what those in charge of Islamic rules say about this minute alcohol beer.

aeacfm - 7-11-2010 at 11:44

Quote: Originally posted by peach  
aeacfm, you have to believe I'm not trying to do down religion, I'm just assuming you want beer that adheres to Halal and that means I have to reference what the texts say about it.

It is my interpretation of it, but then, saying it should contain no molecules of alcohol is also an interpretation.

If it meant, to be entirely free of alcohol molecules, it would surely have been easy to say "no traces of alcohol", or something similar; "absolutely free of alcohol", "drinks must be as pure as water".

The way it says "strong" and "intoxicating" drinks, would seem to be talking about drinks designed to get you drunk right?

Again, I'm not trying to say this is stupid or you're wrong to want it without alcohol in it, I'm only trying to work out what is okay and what isn't. As you've heard, it's basically impossible to remove all of it from anything (water included), people didn't have spectroscopy when the Quran was written, so that must mean there is some quantity that is not considered against Halal, or everyone would have been breaking it since the text was written.

"Strong" and "intoxicating" I think I am more correct in meaning, a.) something you've brewed to get drunk or that will easily make you drunk, b.) drinking enough of it that you do get drunk.

If you remove 99%+ of the alcohol from beer, you've tried hard to get rid of all the alcohol, you're approaching the limits of what is physically possible and you'd have to drink buckets of it (literally) to even start feeling drunk.

We are talking about absolutely minute quantities of alcohol, not Western 'weak beer' standards, it will be getting close to water in terms of the alcohol content.

I don't mean to offend you, so I hope I haven't,
John

[Edited on 31-10-2010 by peach]


dear friend , John (peah)

it is oky
like what you said i will never find this beer of 0.000000% alcohol , aha may be in my dreams , other thing islamic canons respect this like what you said previous if you ate some sugar by fermentation it will convert to alcohol , so will Allah punish me because i ate Sugar "no body can say that ", at the same time every thing is full regulated
any way , i hope this could be finished and return back to general chemistry which unites us all .

i write this post to say every thing is oky :D

have anice night all , specially John

aeacfm - 7-11-2010 at 11:46

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
Win, not wine.

About religion it may be, Mr Wizard, but it is only thus to discover what level of alcohol and preparation is required. Sheesh.

Like what Peach is saying up there, there is so little alcohol in it that' it's minute, but I'm getting mixed messages as to what those in charge of Islamic rules say about this minute alcohol beer.

what you asking "BASHA" in the above post
no Zero ever would be found !!!
islam didnt say the limit is Zero !!!