I wondered if anyone could update me on UK regulations for buying and storing hazardous chemicals? I ask because I was just looking for some DCM on
eBay and found some very surprising chemicals for sale, most notably HNO3, H2SO4 and HNO3, all at azeoptropic concentrations, as well as I2 either in
prills or as a solution.
Is this an oversight, or is the government really that laid back about chemical sales?
Of course, I'm not complaining! But it does seem odd.mewrox99 - 24-9-2010 at 15:58
I think the HNO3 and H2SO4 should be fine.
Just watch out for the I2. Even though it isn't illegal in UK, the cops may suspect you are involved in making methamphetamine if they catch you
buying it. DJF90 - 24-9-2010 at 16:51
mewrox: Iodine and phosphorus can be freely purchased here in the UK - theres no real threat regards meth cooks. Iodine can be bought by the kilo if
you really want, and its not too expensive either. Phosphorus is a little harder to get, but only if you don't know where to look.1281371269 - 24-9-2010 at 16:58
So we can't have guns, but we can have chemicals woelen - 25-9-2010 at 10:09
The I2 also is not a problem in the EU (including UK). Actually, this has been a perfect source of I2 for me for decent prices. UK-based sellers also
sell H2O2 (35%), H3BO3, CuSO4.5H2O, NiSO4.7H2O, Se, Te, TeO2, several metals, including Cd and a lot more of interesting stuff.Contrabasso - 26-9-2010 at 05:54
All this until the "Explosives Precursors" EU restrictions come into force over the next few years when Sulphuric will go, Nitric will be limited to
3% and all the nitrates will go, peroxides and hexamine will go too, as will chlorates and perchlorates. 1281371269 - 26-9-2010 at 05:59
Do you think the restrictions will be at all rigidly enforced?
If you do, I'm buying a 25kg sack of KNO3, because that way I can make HNO3 and attempt the lead chamber process for sulfuric...Jor - 26-9-2010 at 06:09
Back in the end of 2008 I already feared these restrictions would come into place:
QUOTE:
3. A complete ban on concentrated strong acids on EU consumer markets (non-professional markets) when a substitute is available: sulphuric,
hydrochloric and nitric acids in particular.
This mean complete unavailability of strong mineral acids. I'm not sure if they only mean from hardware store and such, as I order from a chemical
supplier. And I use it for example for refining precious metals sometimes, for wich there is no substitute for either HCl and HNO3 (wel maybe sodium
nitrite for the latter).
Just to be sure, I ordered a stock of acids, I now have about 6L of conc. HCl, 4L conc. H2SO4 and about 2,3L HNO3. But I use HCl and HNO3 quite a lot
so I'm not sure if this is enough forever. But I ordered a new liter of p.A HCl (my bottle of p.A is almost empty).
I;m not really worried about the oxidisers wich will be regulated as I don't use them very often (I don't do pyro), and most of them can easily be
made. I only worry about H2O2 becoming unavailable, as it is very useful in inorganic chemistry.woelen - 26-9-2010 at 09:27
All this kind of bullshit unfortunately still lives on:
An official proposal will be discussed about EU-wide regulations. Now each state has its own rules and it seems NL (and also UK and PL) have more
relaxed rules than e.g. DE. If these rules indeed are introduced then sale of the following chemicals to individuals will be prohibited in any
quantity.
Strong acids:
- nitric acid
- sulphuric acid
- sodium bisulfate
- hydrochloric acid (unless at concentration lower than 10% and blended with dyes, perfume and other stuff)
Nitrogen based compounds:
- ammonium salts (unless at low concentration and blended with many other salts, e.g. as part of fertilizer)
- nitrate salts (idem)
- urea (idem)
- ammonia (unless at concentration lower than 5% and blended with dyes, perfume and other stuff)
Strong oxidizers:
- chlorates
- perchlorates
- bromates
- hydrogen peroxide (unless at concentration lower than 3% in the form of a gel)
Besides this, the sale of acetone will be monitored (not prohibited).
Chlorates and bromates can be made at home, but if anything which even comes close to a strong acid is prohibited, then that will be the end of home
chemistry for almost everybody.
All these regulations are based on fear for terrorist attack with home-made explosives. It really is about fear for terrorism and not fear for the
kewls who also can do nasty things (such as mixing NaOH and aluminium, or mixing pool chlorinator with alcohol). Although these latter things can be
nasty, they cannot be used for a real bomb (mixes are too unstable, no real detonation, no timing options). This kind of chemicals hence is not
listed. It really is about precursors for serious explosives.
I also understood that some politicians want to go further and want to prohibit the sale of any pure chemical to individuals and want to strictly
monitor the sale of any pure chemical to licensed companies, research labs and schools. There will be a list of exceptions (e.g. distilled water,
sugar, alkane-mixes) and only those chemicals can be purchased as pure chemicals.
The idea is that chemicals still may be sold to individuals for specific purposes (e.g. concrete cleaning or as food additive), but only at a low
concentration and strongly blended with other materials in order to frustrate workup and concentration of the chemicals. The blends should be such
that they only can be used for what they are made for and that it is very hard to separate one of the constituents.
I personally do not think that the total prohibition of sale of pure chemicals will become a reality, but I certainly can imagine that strong acids,
ammonium- and nitrate salts and urea will become a rare thing for private persons in the near future.
At the moment we still can buy chemicals and in the EU it still is relatively easy to find interesting things, but I'm wondering for how long.
[Edited on 26-9-10 by woelen]hissingnoise - 26-9-2010 at 12:23
So ultimately the level of hardship we face is dependent on the activities of greedy, moronic methcooks and superstitious, homicidal troglodytes.
The chances of them simply going away may be small but they're not nonexistent. . .
Jor - 26-9-2010 at 14:42
I really worry about this:
The Regulation will be a binding instrument. It will enter into force 18 months after its adoption by the European Parliament and the Council.
However, possession and use of the chemical substances and products containing them will still be allowed until 36 months after adoption.
So even the possession of the chemicals will be prohibited. That is BAD. If the law would be accepted we would all still have 18 months to stock up
for life on strong acids, wich are essential in any kind of chemistry. However, if we can't even have them anymore, this practically means the end of
home chemistry, at least legally.
How the hell are they going to regulate ammonium salts? And urea?
I don't care about all the oxidisers being restricted, I mean they are useful sometimes, but I can go without them. However, the acids and to a lesser
extent ammonia are essential to me.
Nitric acid can still be generated using sodium nitrite and a weak acid, like phosphoric acid, generating NO2, wich could be bubbled through water,
but this process would be inefficient and expensive. HCl could be generated using sodium bisulfate and sodium chloride, but as it seems even
bisulfate will be regulated. Making sulfuric acid is not really an option, as for making SO3, NaHSO4 is required.watson.fawkes - 26-9-2010 at 15:15
So even the possession of the chemicals will be prohibited. That is BAD. If the law would be accepted we would all still have 18 months to stock up
for life on strong acids, wich are essential in any kind of chemistry. However, if we can't even have them anymore, this practically means the end of
home chemistry, at least legally.
I would heartily recommend drawing up a list of _de minimis_ exception
quantities for everything in the list. No one's going to draw that list up except for European home chemists. So there's not even hope of getting a
reasonable law without a little activism. While I care in the abstract, I don't care enough to work on it seriously myself. After there's a list, then
it's time for some actual political activism. But that's premature until you have a concrete proposal.
The quantities should allow enough for, say, three months of "ordinary" activity with a particular reagent, then multiplied by two to allow for the
inevitable surplus that comes with restocking and its random delays.ScienceSquirrel - 26-9-2010 at 16:53
I question if the regulation will be passed in to law and if it will be enforced.
At the moment the governments of the UK, France and Germany are looking at substantial cuts that will bite deep in to the numbers of police, customs
officers and other civil servants.
The UK is looking at around 10 -20% less police officers, defence cuts that will mean the end of the UK as even a regional power, the abolition of the
Audit Commission plus the HSE will be reduced to three men, a woman and a dog plus two guinea pigs on alternate Wednesdays and a hamster as a
supernumerary member of staff on Fridays when there is an R in the month! :-)
Cuts in Ireland and Greece are going to go a lot deeper. It is entirely possible that all public support for museums, cinema, theatre, orchestras, etc
will be cut to zero and more beside.
The EU commission was OK when European governments had cash to burn, Now they are looking hard at every shekel spent and will do anything to avoid
any regulation that results in another worker being tossed on to the growing dole queues.
How long can the Strasbourg party go on while there is austerity at home?
[Edited on 27-9-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]mewrox99 - 28-9-2010 at 23:23
Oh god this seems horrible.
Sucks to live in Europe Emil - 2-10-2010 at 12:03
Mossydie.
Be very careful about ordering "goods" from ebay. It isn't a very safe place to be buying chemicals from, no matter what quantities you purchase. Even
though there are a few good deals to be had on there, I recommend staying away from it as it can lead to further problems. More hassle than it's worth
in other words.
eBay are all to happy to hand over transaction details on any items or chemicals you buy to the police, especially anything that could have some
illegitimate use. Try and find some other suppliers before considering them,and use only as a last resort.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by Emil]metalresearcher - 2-10-2010 at 13:30
eBay are all to happy to hand over transaction details on any items or chemicals you buy to the police, especially anything that could have some
illegitimate use. Try and find some other suppliers before considering them,and use only as a last resort.
As long as you order legitimate chemicals there is no problem I think. IrC - 2-10-2010 at 15:40
Be very careful about ordering "goods" from ebay. It isn't a very safe place to be buying chemicals from, no matter what quantities you purchase. Even
though there are a few good deals to be had on there, I recommend staying away from it as it can lead to further problems. More hassle than it's worth
in other words.
eBay are all to happy to hand over transaction details on any items or chemicals you buy to the police, especially anything that could have some
illegitimate use. Try and find some other suppliers before considering them,and use only as a last resort.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by Emil]
Do it right. Find non commercial store sellers, and ask them for a list. Then PayPal goods/other. No big deal. Quit getting all paranoid.
[Edited on 10-3-2010 by IrC]madscientist - 2-10-2010 at 15:50
I'm afraid I have to agree with Emil. Be careful with eBay, they are the definition of untrustworthy, and that goes for PayPal too. Their respect for
your privacy: zero.
Try to work directly with a seller (check, cash, credit, money order) if you can't find something elsewhere.IrC - 2-10-2010 at 16:02
Over the last 10 years every one of these came from ebay, paypal, through the mail. Never been ripped for a nickel from any seller. Paypal is safest
way to deal with strangers. If you buy from a private list, use goods/other, no mention of item exists. No one has ever bothered me by the way. So
with all the paranoia being mentioned here tell me which item on the list below should I worry about most. If items are being bought for illegal
purposes I hope the buyer and seller get nailed but that belongs in another topic area.
Chemical supply list
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aluminate glow powder Or 1 oz, Yel 1 oz, Pur 1 oz, Bl/Gr
And so on to Z, was a longer list for a few hours.
OK I left that up long enough. Time to remove it while I still can. No point in giving too much information to the worlds many paranoid beings.
[Edited on 10-3-2010 by IrC]entropy51 - 2-10-2010 at 17:07
The not or never found listed by a few items were in boxes stolen from my storage a few years ago.
Thanks,
IrC. I thought I might be the only old geezer with chemical disposophobia, but I see my case is a mild one. You actually rent storage for your cache?IrC - 2-10-2010 at 18:15
Not sure I should feel good if you think that list is big and being a packrat is a bad thing? Is it? I wish my list of crap was that small. No, at the
time I moved and had to get the truck turned back in, long before I had a place to put it all. I hate paying for storage it's too much loss in money
better spent somewhere else. For the few months in storage I suffered the only loss of scientific equipment I have ever had. Another reason not to use
storage rooms. At least here I can run out with a KG9 or a 12 gauge if I hear something messing around with my stuff.
etoxiran - 3-10-2010 at 15:02
I live in PL, it's interesting country. Getting chemicals is rather easy if you now how to do this. Ah, please excuse my bad grammar (english is my
second language).
Back to topic - for example - controlled acetone is the problem? So we should buy for example paint solvent called "Aceton" for less than 2euro/dm3
and distill it.
With strong acid is more problem. It's hard to find good source of cheap sulfuric or muriatic acid. But it cost much less than 1euro/dm3.
And as I heard - nitroethane and benzaldehyde is not controlled now (I'm not sure because I don't need them).
EU regulations are as stupid as this all organisation. Emil - 4-10-2010 at 08:36
IRC
It's not being paranoid, its being sensible. Just because you haven't had any bad experiences with eBay, doesnt mean other people haven't ok. If you
for one second think that eBay wouldn't screw you over at the drop of a hat then you should seriously rethink your trust.
Your point about buying direct through a seller is a valid one, and is the safest way to go about things. Of course if you did get messed around, you
would have no leg to stand on getting your money back, as you have not got ebays buyer protection. Paypal is a great site, and I have used it for
years.
And put it this way, if you live in the UK, you don't have a legitamate reason to own anything more potent that washing machine powder. At least thats
the way our government sees it. And especially when we are talking about the energetics field.
So in the eyes of the law, everything any hobbyist or home chemist owns is "illeagal", and any attempt to legitimise their uses would be shadowed if a
considerable amount was present.
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Emil]
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Emil]woelen - 4-10-2010 at 10:49
Emil, aren't you exaggerating somewhat? I am from the Netherlands, but my primary source of interesting chemicals is the UK (different suppliers).
There are a lot of interesting chemicals to purchase from the UK and sometimes I really am surprised at what you can buy over there (such as 35% H2O2,
offered through eBay) and sometimes I envy the UK-based people. I only can order solid chemicals, as I do not think it is a smart idea to have liquid
chemicals like 35% H2O2 shipped from the UK to NL. But for people, living in the UK itself it looks to me like a very good place to find chemicals.
So, while there are so many different suppliers (also on eBay) for all kinds of chemicals, I hardly can imagine that it is illegal to own those
chemicals (of course within reason, so no tens of kilos or tens of liters of certain chemicals).Emil - 4-10-2010 at 12:47
I am not denying that there are some great suppliers in the UK, I was just trying to deter the poster of this thread of rushing in and buying too many
chems on eBay.
Anything in moderation you should be fine, but I am merley pointing out in black and white that if it really came down to it, you would have a hard
time justifying needs for most chemicals if it really came down to it. But as long as you are sensible, then usually you don't tend to raise any
eyebrows.
IrC - 4-10-2010 at 19:32
Emil "Just because you haven't had any bad experiences with eBay, doesnt mean other people haven't ok."
1416 transactions through ebay that they know about. About 1/3 electronic, rest chemical or related. Likely double that with MO's or "goods/other" on
paypal where ebay knows nothing about the item.
3 times I have been burned. Once I got 30 back out of 75 as paypal said that was all the guys account had in it. Full blown ebay auction for an
antique violet ray device. Tingly. Twice nothing back. Paypal only takes from the persons account if they have money in it. Crappy ripoff sellers know
this and have barely any money in it.
Do not buy from ebay sellers who primarily only list known drug chemicals. These are traps. Do not buy chemicals for drug making, do not make drugs.
Those who do are destroying our ability to create and discover. If I knew about it I would turn you in. Period.
All that aside there is no reason for paranoia unless you are stupid and kewl. Not aiming this at Emil nor inferring, "stupid and kewl" I apply to
those who are. If you are stupid and kewl what the hell would you buy chemicals for? I would not trust someone stupid and kewl with a potato gun.
Yet the stupid and kewl keep making them. Just like the clowns, they never stop coming.
I know this thread is about the UK, but I do not think I am too far off topic. woelen - 5-10-2010 at 05:18
Actually, I even prefer buying from an eBay seller, instead of from some obscure site. You have buyer protection, eBay is rather critical in what is
allowed and what is not and what can be shipped safely and what not. So, if a chemical is on eBay and it is inside the EU (for people in the USA of
course it must be in the USA), then I feel fairly confident of buying it if I want. And as IrC also suggests, I always check the other items from the
same seller and I always check feedback from an unknown seller. In this way I have obtained many many chemicals. I must admit that the chemicals,
present at eBay, usually are not the most noxious ones, but sometimes you even find the somewhat more controversial ones. Just to give you an idea of
what kind of sellers I mean, here follows a list:
This is just a list of some suppliers, I have many more on eBay (most of them in the UK, some in Poland and some in other countries). I see nothing
suspicious in this kind of sellers.
I have seen some more shady sellers in the past (people selling lots of organic chemicals of which many at least can raise some eye brows and some
were straight drug precursors with no other imaginable use in a home lab), but this kind of sellers can be filtered out easily. They usually have only
a few feedback points (i.e. they just sold a few items), they sell weird stuff and no general more common chemicals, most of the time they don't sell
at all and sometimes a controversial chemical appears and some of them also have outrageous shipping prices (e.g. 5 grams of red P for EUR 1 plus EUR
18 shipping). If a seller does not have that kind of dubious things and the general look and feel is similar to the ones I listed above, then I do not
have a strong feeling that it is dangerous to buy something from eBay.
It is good to be careful, but being paranoid is not good at all. It takes away interesting opportunities and even worse, it takes away the fun of home
chemistry in general.
[Edited on 5-10-10 by woelen]hiperion42 - 10-1-2011 at 01:37
So ultimately the level of hardship we face is dependent on the activities of greedy, moronic methcooks and superstitious, homicidal troglodytes.
The chances of them simply going away may be small but they're not nonexistent. . .
Like the wall street primates the methcooks also have the right to be greedy.
And the chances of finding a chimpansee playing cards on the mount everest are also not nonexistent.
What are you talking about?
