Sciencemadness Discussion Board

AN+TCCA

minimuna - 7-8-2010 at 12:57

What is the reactionformula of AN+TCCA+H2O+heat=Explosion

franklyn - 7-8-2010 at 20:03

Okay , I give up , what is it ?

[Edited on 8-8-2010 by franklyn]

It is not immediately evident , chlorination of ammonium produces chloramimes.
Initialy at nearly neutral pH ~ 7 , monochloramine predominates. As the solution
becomes increasingly acid from the released Nitric and Cyanuric , Trichloramine
is produced , an oily sensitive primary explosive which floats on the surface and
very readily explodes in the small amount produced. Excercise great care , it is
unpredictable and will explode without apparent reason.

[Edited on 8-8-2010 by franklyn]

Attachment: Chloramine formation.pdf (183kB)
This file has been downloaded 941 times

minimuna - 8-8-2010 at 01:17

I don't know. That is why i asked.

hissingnoise - 8-8-2010 at 02:36

I must confess my total ignorance too. . .
I'd be surprised if such mixtures containing water explode.

minimuna - 8-8-2010 at 02:57

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
I must confess my total ignorance too. . .
I'd be surprised if such mixtures containing water explode.


It happened. I made AN+water solution and then i added TCCA.
Then i left it on the stove. When it started to boil, it exploted. The mixture had water in it when it exploted.

woelen - 8-8-2010 at 03:44

TCCA? Is this some Tellurium Cholera Chlorine Acid based compound? Oh yes, this stuff frequently explotes. Don't look too angry at the stuff, it may bite you in the face.

minimuna - 8-8-2010 at 04:22

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
TCCA? Is this some Tellurium Cholera Chlorine Acid based compound? Oh yes, this stuff frequently explotes. Don't look too angry at the stuff, it may bite you in the face.

TCCA=trichlor=trichloroisocyanuricacid=C3Cl3N3O3.

hissingnoise - 8-8-2010 at 05:59

(Now woelen, we've learned something today!)
Minimuna, are you sure this 'explosion' wasn't a heated solution 'bumping' explosively?


minimuna - 8-8-2010 at 06:38

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
(Now woelen, we've learned something today!)
Minimuna, are you sure this 'explosion' wasn't a heated solution 'bumping' explosively?



It was real explosion, like a rifle shot.
I have made that mixture 5 times with different ratio and every time it has exploted. Best was 10g AN+20g TCCA+20ml H2O.
Next time i try without water.

The WiZard is In - 8-8-2010 at 06:52

Quote: Originally posted by minimuna  
What is the reactionformula of AN+TCCA+H2O+heat=Explosion


Would you people and you know who you are....
please stop with the *&%#^ abbreviations!

If I have the God like power of the form Admins. I
would require all chemicals be posted w/ their CAS
numbers.

There dobe a standard book of such matters. Brehtherick's
Handbook of Reactive Chemical Hazards. (Which see the
6th ed. for a (pats self on back) citation of some of publications
p. 1376. You can DL this book me think, the current
ed is the 7th? Be sure you are siting down when you check
its price!

#1039 1,3,5-Trichloro-1,3,5-triazinetrione [87-90-1]
C3Cl3N3O3

... used in the chlorination of swimming pools, is a
powerful oxidant.

If mixed with a small amount of water, the conc. solution
(with pH around 2) may explode, owing to the evolution
of nitrogen trichloride.... &c.

hissingnoise - 8-8-2010 at 06:57

30g of explosive should go off like a fucking grenade. . .
In case the carbonyls in TCCA do react explosively with NO3, I'd drastically reduce the amount of reactants, if I were you!
And then there's also the possibility that NCl3 was formed in solution!



franklyn - 8-8-2010 at 13:40

Quote: Originally posted by minimuna  
Best was __ 10g AN + 20g TCCA + 20ml H2O __ Next time i try without water.


The little hairs on the back of my neck stand up from reading this.
Pay attention and heed what hissingnoise said just above here ^

I'm reminded of the 1977 movie " JAWS " about a roque shark.
In the film "Hooper" played by Richard Dreyfus is critiqued
about the utility of a shark cage, by "Quint" the shark fisher
who, played by Robert Shaw, says " you go in the cage, cage go
in the water, shark in the water ? " then smiles and begins
singing this ditty _

Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies,
Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain,
For we set sail this day for Boston, and
N'ever more shall we see you again.

.

.

grndpndr - 8-8-2010 at 14:06


If the last was posted from memory you either saw the movie far to many times or have an enviable memory!I sometimes..Often have trouble remembering my own phone #I like to blame this on a senior moment but they are becoming so frequent? . Or I dont call myself often sometimes works.Last resort? very few folks ask for my # OT official looking types.:(

ScienceSquirrel - 8-8-2010 at 14:12

I would point out that nitrogen trichloride also called trichloroamine is extremely dangerous indeed.
It has maimed several experimenters in the past;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_trichloride.

franklyn - 8-8-2010 at 18:31

For unknown reason one is misdirected from that given url
click the topmost first entry listed here to get there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/Nitrogen_trichlo...

.

Oxydro - 9-8-2010 at 13:07

The reason is not unknown. It's the period.

franklyn - 9-8-2010 at 13:47

Period ?
Ohh the period on the E N D !
who would have thunk it.
My eyesight is barely adequate.

.

ScienceSquirrel - 9-8-2010 at 16:38

How often has the course of human life been interrupted for a period!
:-)

watson.fawkes - 9-8-2010 at 17:23

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
How often has the course of human life been interrupted for a period!
:-)
Indeed, periodically.

hissingnoise - 10-8-2010 at 02:40

They don't have the significance for men that they do for women. . .

The WiZard is In - 10-8-2010 at 06:28

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
They don't have the significance for men that they do for women. . .



My published letter to the editor of the local good only
for wrapping fish newspaper.


Directed evolution

Those who except Directed Evolution as a fact are obligated to also accept as fact -- their deity
is of the female gender. I offer as proof that by whatever method, the highest evolved life
forms on this planet are the placental mammals. The highest evolved placental mammal
consists of a single species – Homo sapiens i.e., people.

In the female human under hormonal control on a approximate monthly basis, eggs pop out of
the ovaries and then march off singing merrily, GPS’s in hand down a pathway named for the
16th century anatomist Gabriele Fallopius to the womb, where they await the arrival of their
male DNA carrying partners to come marching in Wagner’s Entrance of the gods into Valhalla
playing in the background. From thousands of suitors each egg will chose one. Thus paired they
will attach to the womb – the two becoming one – the one, two – the two, four - &c., &c., until
nine months latter a blessed, albeit sadly not always welcome event takes place. However, if
their male DNA carrying counter parts fails to arrive - having been blocked at either
transmitting or receiving end, spatially disrupted (Coitus interruptus AKA The crime of Onan),
killed by chemical warfare or for reasons either social or psychological -- after several days it’s
Götterdämmerung! Unlike Valhalla -- the womb does not burn -- its lining (the endometrium)
sloths off, in turn the endometrium, blood and unfertilized eggs are flushed out through the
(insert the Latin word for a knife sheaf).

No male deity would engineer such a wasteful, basically disgusting system. If evolution had
been directed by a male deity – women would lay eggs.

Melgar - 11-8-2010 at 10:01

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
They don't have the significance for men that they do for women. . .


Oh we suffer too! I just had to go a whole week with no sex!

*shields his face and groin from the blows of any women who may have been within earshot*

You're better off making erythritol tetranitrate with your nitrate salt. It's stable, won't explode for no reason, and you can detonate small amounts of it by heating it quickly while it's wrapped in aluminum foil. Wrap little chunks of it and throw them in a campfire... loud and you can impress your friends! It's not the least bit safe, and may result in a burning coal hitting someone in the eye, but it's a hell of a lot safer than what you proposed earlier!

hissingnoise - 11-8-2010 at 13:02

Quote:
Oh we suffer too! I just had to go a whole week with no sex!

Brush up on your persuasion techniques - you'll be glad you did!
Her too. . .

iHME - 16-8-2010 at 05:35

The original poster is propably form a local forum I moderate.
Recently there has been a notion of the danger of accidentaly mixing/contamination of ammonium nitrate or TCCA (trichloroisosyanuric acid) with each other.
Because the exact reaction mechanism was unknown and most of the forumites there are only hobbyists some theories ware raised.
So the a suggestion was posted "Ask on Sciencemadness, they have real chemists there and they might have some theories addition to our own"
And thus this little gem was posted here.
One member also did some testing on his own and reported that the mix indeed is dangerous.
The member had some experience with HE's so he probably had some idea about what he was doing.

The forum is in local language and all members are not too fluent in english.

497 - 17-8-2010 at 20:35

Hmm.. ammonium ion plus chlorinating agent, unstable, explosive, but not powerful... Sounds like NCl3 for sure. I don't see many other possibilities. Maybe some unreacted AN could detonate sympathetically, at most. I doubt experimenting further with this mixture is going to yield anything but possibly a missing hand..