Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Starting a small buissness?

smaerd - 28-7-2010 at 08:59

{If this is in the wrong place then I apologize in advance}

I am studying chemistry as my field of interest in college right now but I am very early on still. However chemistry has quickly become as much of a hobby to me as a study, even though my knowledge is still incredibly limited.

Though I do want to start playing with fragrant chemicals and perhaps design a cologne or perfume. I would like to maybe market or sell small-scale online or at art festivals that small-towns set up, to bring in a couple extra dollars here and there.

Of course it's not in my capabilities to be playing with synthetics so much at this point in my academic experience, but I do want to have a little field that I can explore at home and be rewarded by nice chemical smells verses toxic and volatile ones haha.

So I guess what I'm asking is, is there any sort of requirements I have to meet for where I work(the basement haha), if so where can I find out about them. I'd imagine I'd need my final product to be analyzed maybe under GC/MS or LC/MS or something to make sure it's safe for topical application?

Any advice, or "your in over your head and heres why:", would be really appreciated.

I'm in no rush an I won't be taking out any loans for anything, so worst comes to worst I am investing in my lab with my own money is kind of how I am looking at it.

entropy51 - 28-7-2010 at 09:23

Quote: Originally posted by smaerd  


Though I do want to start playing with fragrant chemicals and perhaps design a cologne or perfume. I would like to maybe market or sell small-scale online or at art festivals that small-towns set up, to bring in a couple extra dollars here and there.

So I guess what I'm asking is, is there any sort of requirements I have to meet for where I work(the basement haha), if so where can I find out about them. I'd imagine I'd need my final product to be analyzed maybe under GC/MS or LC/MS or something to make sure it's safe for topical application?

Any advice, or "your in over your head and heres why:", would be really appreciated.
Hint: In the USA, the FDA enforces something called the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.

The FDA regulates and inspects cosmetic manufacturers.

The_Davster - 28-7-2010 at 09:59

Quote: Originally posted by smaerd  
be rewarded by nice chemical smells verses toxic and volatile ones haha.

/rquote]

You are in over your head because this statement indicates lack of general chemical knowledge.

In order for a chemical to smell it must have some volatility.

bbartlog - 28-7-2010 at 10:13

If you're going to sell at arts festivals, I'd suggest testing your product on yourself and leaving it at that; take your chances with the FDA enforcement (they have bigger fish to fry, really). It would certainly be worth scoping out the venue and getting a feel for how informal it is before doing this; find out whether the organizer is comfortable with what you'd be doing.
If you're intent on doing things above the level and by the book, then you need something more than a small business to achieve FDA compliance. Small business (with some exceptions, like restaurants) often finds it convenient to ignore regulations until the business is big enough that risk associated with non-compliance become large and the per-unit cost of compliance becomes small.

Quote:
I'd need my final product to be analyzed


How much would this help? If you're worried about outright toxicity, then testing on yourself should give a pretty good idea. If you're worried that someone will have an allergic reaction, I'm not sure that knowing the exact constituents would give much of an idea of the chances. Anyway, if it seems like it would be useful you should price out the service and figure out how much you have to add to your prices (under whatever volume assumption) and see if it makes sense given your business plan.

peach - 28-7-2010 at 10:41

There will be a ton of guides online for who qualifies and what needs doing for this specific area, check their site and the acts.

It also depends largely on how widely it's being distributed, what it's described use is and what's in it. If you've mixed together some naturally occurring odourants that are well known in the perfume industry and have known toxicologies, you're selling few bottles and it's to go in the bath or to be sprayed on your clothes, chances are high that they wouldn't even bother speaking to you if you walked into their main office with it.

If you're synthesizing odd things for people to use on their skin and running a faceless online company, selling it to lots of people in the general public, the chances of intervention get higher.

They will be particularly so if someone reacts to your novel concoctions. Keeping in mind that each country a bottle goes to will likely have it's own specific rules regarding the topic.

In the UK, I think the cosmetics companies do things call skin permeation model tests as part of the product assessment for newer, less well understood lines, which assesses how much of what makes it through some facsimile of human skin.

Chainhit222 - 28-7-2010 at 10:44

You can probably sell bootleg cosmetics on the street if you package them well. I've seen homeboys trying to slang perfume for 20$ at Jamaica station in NYC. Random thugs spraying you with perfume on the street is lol.

[Edited on 28-7-2010 by Chainhit222]

smaerd - 28-7-2010 at 11:40

lol, well I'm really sorry that I used one wrong word... yikes... Like I said I'm not going to play with anything synthetic until I can. Meaning I will be doing mostly steam distillations of essential oils and basic things(cleaning solvents etc...).

But yea I didn't realize the FDA had to approve cosmetics, thanks for letting me know. Maybe I was too ambitious yet again, but that's why I have ScienceMadness to keep me in line :). I'm not interested in getting arrested for selling dodgy products, it wouldn't look good on a resume haha.

turd - 28-7-2010 at 11:50

Aiming high is laudable; you grow on the job and so on and so forth...

If you plan to earn money with your idea, invest $100 and seek legal advice from a _real_ lawyer. That's what they're there for and they will know about the risks in your jurisdiction.

BTW: Usually you don't make essential oils, you buy them. There's specialists for that too and they can probably make it way cheaper than you do.

not_important - 28-7-2010 at 13:38

What's been said already, plus consider learning how to spell "buissness" - business or at least use spell-checking on your browser.

Generally fragrance development uses GC and similar when working to duplicate a natural aroma, the natural compound is what is analysed as you know what is in your compounding.

If it goes on or in the body, and is provisionally legal otherwise, expect more than the regulatory agencies on their own to be interested, individuals may be asking questions and report you. Most people compounding stuff solve this problem by buying certified approved ingredients - not making thise themselves.

ScienceSquirrel - 28-7-2010 at 13:52

I am not sure where you would stand in the USA but in the UK there is a general approval for bath salts, candles and other craft products as long as they are manufactured from ingredients that you can show are fit for the purpose and in accordance with accepted recipes.
For instance a packet of lavender bath salts made from 100g of sea salt, 1ml of grapeseed oil, a few drops of natural lavender oil and a trace of an approved blue colourant would be fine.
All of the ingredients are approved for cosmetic use, none of them are being used in excessive amounts and hence likely to cause irritation.
As added precautions, you would list all the ingredients on the the back of the packet and give a use by date to allow for the oil in the product becoming rancid.
If you were selling the product on a large scale it might be a good idea to take out third party insurance but if you were selling at craft fairs etc, if someone had a complaint and it went to court you would get away with it on the grounds that you had taken reasonable care towards the customer.
European courts tend to regard consumers as being semi intelligent unlike in the USA.
If you buy a grease gun and use it to inject Vaseline up your bottom then it is your fault, unlike in the 'civilised world' where it is the fault of the manufacturer :-(

densest - 28-7-2010 at 14:28

If what you want to do is make scents, check out www.libertynatural.com who sell hundreds of oils, essences, attars, etc. IMHO the prices are reasonable.

Most of the components are quite toxic in excess. Most can be absorbed through the skin. Many will react with each other or decompose if not protected. You will need a source of concentrated food-grade ethanol - at least 70% (140 proof) if not higher - to be a carrier, or scentless soaps, oils, etc.

There's a -lot- of information existing about how to compound and stabilize (very!!! important) the scents. Lots of reading in your future....

smaerd - 28-7-2010 at 14:50

Thanks for the information everyone. Yea I apologize I didn't spell-check, but hey this wasn't the worst post ever written right?

Anyways, I checked out a web-site called Scribed.com for those of you interested in e-books and some other neat documents it's worth checking out(if you haven't already). I found a few good small *.pdf's related to perfume making. I am also going to check the half priced book-store tomorrow to see if there's anything I can scoop up. Lots of reading ahead indeed!

I know it's an art form and I can't just slap things together, but hey I'm here to learn, I'm patient, and I'm interested. Whether I end up making a business out of it, or just making my own personal cologne to save money and or gifts as a side-project in the lab, it'll still be a fun and educational endeavor.

Thank you everyone again, it means a lot.

peach - 28-7-2010 at 18:15

Quote: Originally posted by not_important  
Most people compounding stuff solve this problem by buying certified approved ingredients - not making thise themselves.


You should have told jar man that idea before he made his video. He'd probably have a bigger bone to pick with the glass manufacturers not making it anus safe.

zed - 7-8-2010 at 10:46

I see a lot of homecrafted bath soaps for sale. Scented candles are surely OK. Even essential oils or blends are OK.

Run down to your local health food store, and check out the products. Note the cautions and disclaimers printed on those products.

Steam distilling? Maybe as a live demo at your craft-show/fair. In the real world, you can buy most of your fragrances wholesale. Got simple folk, all over the world, that have stills, mountains of free rose petals, and lots of time on their hands.

Bulk essential oils have traditionally been quite inexpensive. The bugaboo for small business men, has always been the unreasonably high wholesale prices for small glass bottles/vials. It's a deal killer. Start working on that problem first.

bquirky - 7-8-2010 at 11:45

you should get yourself some small furry and incredibly cute mammals to test your stuff on.


I hear that the sales of a product are inversely proportional to how many furry's you mame.


:P

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Contrabasso - 13-8-2010 at 06:22

First, get lots of advice from qualified lawyers in your country about the legal aspects of business.

Remember that some products are more regulated than others, learn the regs for your product. search the web, may people make fragranced soaps and find a niche market.

Lots of cosmetic formulae are not published, BUT the ingredients may each be approved safe individually.


Lastly safeguard your nose! I worked in plating for a few years and the acid mists wrecked my teeth and sense of smell. Not good if I wanted to move into fragrances.

peach - 13-8-2010 at 06:34

The above example, about separate testing, is still something even the big, multimillion companies are trying to sort out themselves, and a prime reason why basic consumer products are still injected into bunnies.

A number of cordial concentrates in the UK were recently taken off the shelves for reformulation after they discovered the preservative was interacting with other components of the concentrate to produce ?benzene? as it sat on the shelf. Whilst not specifically on topic, I have also visited the plants where they produce these concentrates. The ones in the bottles you buy come from an even more concentrated stock drum. The drums had hazard stickers all over them.

This is also akin to my AlCl3 in DCM thread. My tubing is fine around HCl(g), fine around DCM, combine the two in the presence of aluminium, ultimate fail.