Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Chemophobia

Chemophobia

VestriDeus - 5-2-2010 at 16:30

When/Where do you think it will stop?

entropy51 - 5-2-2010 at 16:35

Quote: Originally posted by VestriDeus

When/Where do you think it will stop?

When adolescents stop blowing things up and trying to make shit they can get high on.

Quote:

Last year, McKenzie-Gude pleaded guilty to charges of storing bomb-making materials in his bedroom closets. On Thursday, the prosecution's first witness in the sentencing phase, FBI bomb-making expert Richard Stryker was on the stand. He said McKenzie-Gude had a "rather stunning" variety of chemicals in his bedroom that could be turned into bombs. Prosecutors also showed a video of the explosion that could have been created by the chemicals.

[Edited on 6-2-2010 by entropy51]

unome - 5-2-2010 at 21:36

OMFG :mad:

They were "ALLOWED" to show what "COULD" have been made, but wasn't? WTF? Was this clown legally represented, if so, was such representative qualified? Holy fuck, I "could" make a bomb with petrol, does that mean I'm at risk of prosecution, during which the prosecution will surely show what can be done with fuel-air explosives?

I also have flour, eggs & milk - and the knowledge on how to combine them, does that mean I have ANY intention of baking a cake?

aonomus - 5-2-2010 at 21:48

Just shows the failing of the justice system in many countries. Despite the grand claims being made by the prosecution, the burden of proof now seems to lie solely in the lap of the defendant. Lady justice is taking a nap.

JohnWW - 5-2-2010 at 22:55

Whatever happened to the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments, in that case?

IrC - 6-2-2010 at 01:36

This is starting to remind me of a joke I once heard.

One morning the husband returns after several hours of fishing and decides to take a nap.. Although not familiar with the lake, the wife decides to take the boat out. She motors out a short distance, anchors, and reads her book.

Along comes a Game Warden in his boat. He pulls up alongside the woman and says, 'Good morning, Ma'am. What are you doing?'

'Reading a book,' she replies.

'You're in a Restricted Fishing Area,' he informs her..

'I'm sorry, officer, but I'm not fishing. I'm reading.'

'Yes, but you have all the equipment. For all I know you could start at any moment. I'll have to take you in and write you up.'

'For reading a book?' she replies.

'You're in a Restricted Fishing Area,' he informs her again.

'If you do that, I'll have to charge you with Sexual assault,' says the woman.

'But I haven't even touched you,' says the game warden.

'That's true, but you have all the equipment. For all I know you could start at any moment.'

'Have a nice day ma'am,' and he left.

User - 6-2-2010 at 03:03

I love that one

.

Hate to say it but I don't think it will stop.
Honestly it could well be that you'll consider yourself blessed when you think back in 10 years from now.
The restriction of chemicals will be an on going battle until there is very little left I am afraid.
Man i hate these thoughts.

Someone i know called me "scary" a couple of weeks ago.
I was talking to a friend about some reaction i did and she picked up a couple of words.
Seems an easy assumption to just be scared of it.
As soon as i start to explain some stuff it got better.
Back in the days people where afraid of lightning right?

My ex-girlfriend was very afraid that i was going to hurt myself.
I thought it might help if I just showed her what I was doing and to get her "involved"
Somehow she always kept the same statement, "please stop".
Never really understood that.
Ah well we broke up for other and better reasons , still glad actually

[Edited on 6-2-2010 by User]

hissingnoise - 6-2-2010 at 03:29

Quote:

Hate to say it but I don't think it will stop.
Honestly it could well be that you'll consider yourself blessed when you think back in 10 years from now.

Yeah, chemophobia is ongoing and deepening - depressing in a way but circumventing troublesome regulations is its own reward, and it makes our 'thinking outside the box' routine.

entropy51 - 6-2-2010 at 05:58

Quote: Originally posted by unome

I also have flour, eggs & milk - and the knowledge on how to combine them, does that mean I have ANY intention of baking a cake?

Then you had better be able to convince a jury that the cake recipe on your computer didn't belong to you. Otherwise you had both the materials and the knowledge to bake the cake, and that convicts people every day. The jury will believe that combination equals intent.

This is how they do it.

aonomus - 6-2-2010 at 07:24

@JohnWW
Note: IANAL, and I'm Canadian, so I might have a slightly flawed pragmatic understanding of the criminal justice system. My comment was in general regards all over the world. In Canada, the justice system has been so far reasonable, looking more at intent, and less at 'you have a combination of X, Y, and Z, you must be ready to bake a cake/fish/rape/read a book'.

4th amendment - unlawful search and seizure without probable cause
- Well, there have always been stories of repairmen seeing things in a basement that aren't harmful or such, but assume the worst and report it, that gives the police probable cause to get a warrant for a search [and siezure]
- Also, the police can turn a blind eye to criminals if they report information leading to an arrest... Read the case of Ryan Frederick ( http://www.codemonkeyramblings.com/mt/mt-ftsearch.cgi?blog_i... ). His house was robbed, and 3 days later the police raided in plainclothes, leading to the death of one officer in perceived self defense. The informant also appeared to have a grudge against the defendant. He has been convicted of voluntary manslaughter and faces up to 10 years...

5th amendment - non-self incrimination right, interrogation rights
- IIRC, some criminal proceedings which transitioned over to military tribunal in 'terrorism' cases can end up using admissible evidence gathered via torture.

6th amendment - due process
- Probably in more cases than we'd care to know, law enforcement end up arresting someone for the wrong reason and cannot/will not let you know what the accusation or charges are, and detain you until they run out of time or think of something creative.
- In a few select cases, people the government just really hate, end up going to military tribunals, etc.
- Other cases in big business vs little guy for cases like libel (see: McLibel case) get dragged on and on by the company who has lots of money, so the little guy has to concede, setting the precedent that the big guys always win.

[Edited on 6-2-2010 by aonomus]

entropy51 - 6-2-2010 at 09:12

Quote:

5th amendment - non-self incrimination right

The young man in that case pleaded guilty, so I don't think that was an issue. They could have also charged him with gun charges, murder plots and lots of other stuff that they had evidence of. He probably considers himself lucky that he got off as easy as he did.

Many of these rights become somewhat academic once they've got the goods on you. They can convict without torture, interrogation or other violations of one's rights.

The young man was from a wealthy family and had excellent lawyers. That's how he got off on the other more serious charges.

un0me2 - 6-2-2010 at 14:05

Still, despite having plead guilty to "possession of the articles in question" I don't believe that opens the door, even in sentencing, to allow for open-ended speculation as to what, where, when, how or why the said "articles" were to be used.

Open-ended speculation, detrimental to the convicted party, based upon supposition, not fact, should NEVER have been allowed.

VestriDeus - 6-2-2010 at 16:31

Not only have I noticed the omnipresent fear of chemicals being used for weapons/bombs, and in the manufacture of drugs (hence their outlawing), but there is also the fear of chemicals amongst consumers in the line that chemicals are bad for them.

For instance, one of my friends is always scared when i carry a butane lighter around with me (i don't smoke; i use it for lighting birthday candles

) because "butane is a neurotoxin".

Another example is class a while ago, we were doing a lab on solubility curves, and we used KNO3 (saltpetre) because it has drastic solubility changes for differences in temperatures. Well, the teacher (who isnt too bright - well, at least she never practically applies her knowledge to safety or efficiency) tells us all that that stuff is a corrosive irritant, and "quite toxic". First thing that goes off in my mind is: "wait... wth? this stuff is used as a food preservative. To make like corned beef and stuff!" (which i knew from background knowledge). I wasnt too sure about the exact toxicity, but i knew it was definitely edible, and not "toxic"; at least not in that regard. Like table salt can be "toxic" if you consider it. I knew a bit about it, and i knew it was a mild irritant, but definitely not corrosive. A mild irritant, just like table salt (if you've ever gotten a salt burn, you'll know what i mean). So everyone never did once try to touch that stuff; one person even mildly freaked out when they spilled a solution of it over a counter (because they thought it was toxic, and not because it was an oxidizer; she never told us that). In the end, I ended up stealing some of that stuff (because it's pretty hard to get, and it's a really nice oxidizer

), and I ate about a pinch of it in front of some of my friends to show that it was safe (but it doesn't taste too good by itself; like a mix of MSG and baking soda and hydrogen peroxide with a hint of vinegar)

But really, back on track. Thinking back to the bisphenol-A thing a couple of years back, and other stuff like that, chemophobia amongst the masses is more prevalent than ever. Especially with the organic trend going on, with people too afraid to buy stuff that has been grown using "non-natural fertilizer".

Here's an article that goes further on the subject:
http://www.ecoworld.com/animals/chemophobia.html

[Edited on 7-2-2010 by VestriDeus]

thereelstory - 6-2-2010 at 16:47

\

[Edited on 7-2-2010 by thereelstory]

IrC - 6-2-2010 at 19:39

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

Quote:

5th amendment - non-self incrimination right

There is no 5th before a grand jury. If you do not talk they lock you up, it is the current law. Something which has bothered me for years. However in a case like this I am sure a grand jury was involved and possibly justifiable.

I read some of the story and clearly the wrong guy is being used to advance freedom of chemical science-madness. He had vests, weapons, maps of presidential routes, and so on. Hell I would fry him on that one. If anything he and others like him are killing our freedoms bit by bit, just like the cookers I would also gleefully fry. It is the true seekers like most of us I will defend the right to create and experiment. Yet we always end up paying one way or another every time we lose another important item ( such as P, etc.) in our quests of scientific truth. The stories we should use to defend our rights should be similar to the old thread here about the guy who was raided and reamed for having hundreds of rubber samples in his home. Especially with the evidence the man was a competent professional engaged in legitimate science in a private setting. So lets see: one guy a pro with no history of crime working to invent in his home, another in a cave filling tons of NH4OH into a truck. Who do they go after: you got it, that bad home experimenter who never committed a crime; lets pass more laws says nanny.gov. To me this is strikingly similar to taking down grandma in the airport while letting the bearded guy with the C4 up his ass go on by.

Clear evidence they are out to get us. No doubt there is a nanny.gov mindset out there where they must protect us from ourselves. If the Swiss have to make laws banning foods because their people cannot be trusted to worry about their own health what the hell chance does any of us have who like to play with dangerous items in our quest for science? We are supposed to shut up and pay taxes so nanny.gov can live large while we quietly work. Added to their agenda of shut us down motivated by their out of control hysterical fear of us. My God the man has butane and baking soda open fire!

Also, off topic but it bugs the crap out of me it is always someone like this guy (with the maps and arsenal) from a wealthy upbringing. Bin Laden was from a billionaire family. We always know the middle name of the lone gunman. Seriously, if I had access to wealth when young I would have built a super lab and spent a lifetime inventing instead of doing with little and doing little due to lack of one form or another. Sure as hell I would not have had a vendetta against whatever it is they are against when they take their silver spoon in their mouth lives and use it for death and destruction.

For what it's worth anyway.

Forgot to add but the real story is a / slash? What does that post mean.

[Edited on 2-7-2010 by IrC]

MagicJigPipe - 6-2-2010 at 21:58

"He had vests, weapons, maps of presidential routes,"

So what? This does not mean he was a terrorist. Someone I know has weapons and performs chemical experiments, does that make him a terrorist?

I think you are making a mistake in equating ownership of weapons and/or tactical gear with malicious intent. The presidential map? Come on man! That could have been some BS file he downloaded on his computer 2 years ago that he forgot about.

If you are REALLY looking for connections, you will find them. Let's see, a friend of mine has some firearms, chemicals, a "vest", some survival gear and ... duh duh duh... a map of a local Air Force base or nuclear power facility on his computer! Arrrgggghhhhh! Terrorist!

Look, I'm not saying this guy isn't a loon, but we shouldn't do that thing where we flip out when someone owns a weapon. That's no different from chemophobia.

Am I verging on politics?

psychokinetic - 6-2-2010 at 22:03

Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe

Am I verging on politics?

It's almost impossible not to

IrC - 6-2-2010 at 23:44

"He had vests, weapons, maps of presidential routes, So what? This does not mean he was a terrorist. Someone I know has weapons and performs chemical experiments, does that make him a terrorist?"

Not 100 % unless your friend is also doing terrorist things. Back to the guy in the article instead of the bust they should have undergone surveillance to see first assuming they had just cause for it. There was something that brought him to their attention in the first place. If he was a legit survival advocate of his perceived coming civil unrest this also in my mind would not mean they should arrest, spy on, or otherwise notice or care about him in the first place. The context needs to be taken. How much of what. Did he make any threats. If all he had were implements of Armageddon I would have been highly suspicious if explosions were going on in his yard and big death to the infidels signs were all over the place. If he had a well equipped lab which looked like various experiments not all intended to blow up the universe were going on again this would leave room for doubt unless it contained nothing but 1 ounce of bicarb and 1100 pounds of ANFO. Alone, even this should not have brought LE in spying there must be a justifiable trigger which gives cause for the privacy invasion. You cannot have it both ways if you care about your and your loved ones safety. To ignore history and the signs is to invite tragedy as for example the flight instructors saying nothing when a group of middle easterners wanted only to be taught to fly, not take off, not to land. As well as paying thousands in cash. Not just because someone does not trust banks and only carries cash but the combined total of it all which builds a picture of something ominous. Especially if all they carried onto the plane were box-cutters I mean be real. To me this would be a trigger that there was a just reason to invade the privacy. The lack of fair balance and simple common sense in our freedoms VS LE's (and the lawmakers) agendas creates the problems.

I did not spend hours studying the available info on why LE was looking at this guy so all I can do is guess. Yet there must be some room for the protection of society. If all he had was a box cutter and airline ticket in 2000 should he have been arrested? Unlikely. But several buildings and some 3,000 people are now gone meaning in the name of common sense some line should be drawn or we are all doomed. No matter whether you like it or not. It is the way LE and lawmakers are handling things which creates the problems for us all. Some room for our right to privacy, our right to experiment, our right to keep and bear arms, fairness, and common sense must exist. Ignoring a father telling the CIA his son is possibly a terrorist and strip searching babies at airports are both moronically insane. So is going after every legit experimenter and outlawing everything we use to experiment. Where do you draw the line?

Should every home cooker and every bomb maker be ignored just so you can play or is it reasonable to have some line somewhere. I would not want LE going through my stuff just because they can but I think ignoring clear and present dangers stupidly ignores the massive life taking mistakes in the past. As I stated this guys case is the wrong example to use in defense of our scientific fun. There must be proper balance in the actions of LE, the law, and our just right to privacy but if you are trying to convince me it should be anarchy first no matter the cost forget it. You are wrong. Too many innocent people have died from real wrongdoers and too many innocents are being persecuted for their hobby on the other side of the coin. I think we should be allowed to live and experiment in privacy and freedom meaning they should not be going after people making fireworks unless they have caused harm, this harm being the legit reason they are investigated. Not because a neighbor saw sparks in the backyard or smelled something funny or whatever.

The problem is the balance is not fair towards us and this is where changes need to be made. Politics must enter into discussions such as this since politics is at the very heart of our ever eroding freedoms to experiment in chemistry and therefore politics cannot be wrong in this discussion in my mind.

MagicJigPipe - 10-2-2010 at 15:41

I'm no anarchist but let's discuss for a moment (I can't believe I haven't thought of this specifically before) the heinous acts perpetrated by "legitimate" governments--and those that were, at one time, considered legitimate--and individuals or "illegitimate" groups.

And for argument's sake let's still consider a government legitimate even if the majority of people opposed it (this includes other countries).

If it weren't for nuclear weapons... Would there be as much death and destruction in a world without government? My guess is "probably more" but I don't think it's really THAT obvious.

Is this type of discussion allowable on this forum? Am I derailing the thread? Let me know and I'll take it down.

watson.fawkes - 11-2-2010 at 05:25

Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe

Is this type of discussion allowable on this forum? Am I derailing the thread? Let me know and I'll take it down.

Is it still about chemistry or science in general any more? It doesn't seem so, or at least you haven't made the connection.

entropy51 - 11-2-2010 at 09:59

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

Too many innocent people have died from real wrongdoers and too many innocents are being persecuted for their hobby on the other side of the coin.

I haven't seen the persecution of hobby chemists that you seem to be referring to. A very large number of us here on SM order chemicals and glassware without being persecuted in any way. There are very few examples reported here on SM of members being persecuted for innocent activities. Have you some evidence to the contrary?

I don't believe the refusal of many chemical suppliers to deal with anyone except legitimate companies is directed against us. I think it is a purely economic decision because selling small quantities to amateurs is not worthwhile and they fear it may expose them to legal liability. But there are a number of small companies that will deal with amateurs as a niche market. (Just look at the "Last Chemical Order" thread.) So I just don't just see the persecution that you mentioned.

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by entropy51]

IrC - 11-2-2010 at 11:16

Persecution. What does the definition encompass. Do not have time to do a dissertation on the fly right now but should you not read all threads in all 7 pages in "Legal and Societal Issues" before you ask such a question? So many here are strong on the idea of UTFSE anyway or so it seems.

If you do you will find stories written of the experiences of many here and elsewhere, including myself and really I do not feel like writing them all over again here just to answer your short question.

I assume there was a reason the forum "Legal and Societal Issues" was created in the first place and as you deny the existence of our persecution explain why this forum was created. As for the thread you mentioned I for one am glad I am not the stupid truck driver hauling 15 pounds of chlorine gas right past the Olympics but hey "what the hell do I know" I guess should be the reply you seek.

Small addition on searching I should add is over the years I and others may have related some stories in whimsy so the search should be a broad one. So many stories I have read here and elsewhere online over the years of legal actions and raids on hobby chemists. Many of which gained convictions for possession of certain chemicals combined with various information as proof of guilt or justification of fines and confiscation of various chemicals. I for one like to include the laws refusing me to have various chemicals such as I and P for experiments I wish to do not drug related but really for legitimate science as part of what to include in my definition of the word "persecution".

Good God man have you not read of the actions against companies such as United Nuclear, KNO3, various and sundry suppliers of hobby firework and rocket components and so many others which come to mind? Before you start in on KNO3 I imagine there were many wanting red P for legitimate experiments who could not find it anywhere else.

I am sure the ostrich still maintains his theory "trains do not exist" while in the middle of the tracks but IIRC his head is buried in the sand so really does he have all the data?

[Edited on 2-11-2010 by IrC]

Magpie - 11-2-2010 at 11:26

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

I haven't seen the persecution of hobby chemists that you seem to be referring to. A very large number of us here on SM order chemicals and glassware without being persecuted in any way.

I agree with what you say here. However, the possiblity of unjustified persecution makes many of us fear a possible "knock on the door." Would ordering a touchy chemical like acetic anhydride or malonic acid bring you a knock? Good question.

Why do we fear that knock if we are law abiding citizens who just happen to have a home chemistry hobby? Because we may very well be assumed to be up to no good until we prove otherwise. The process of "proving otherwise" will likely include 1) a great deal of embarrasment, 2) confiscation of our lab equipment and chemicals, 3) overblown costs for "environmental cleanup," 4) a costly and lengthy court battle, and 5) time in jail. See the case of one Victor Deeb.

psychokinetic - 11-2-2010 at 11:52

Quote:

"I haven't seen the persecution of hobby chemists that you seem to be referring to. A very large number of us here on SM order chemicals and glassware without being persecuted in any way."

I haven't been persecuted, but it does suck feeling like a criminal.

entropy51 - 11-2-2010 at 12:07

Quote:

Persecution. What does the definition encompass. Do not have time to do a dissertation on the fly right now but should you not read all threads in all 7 pages in "Legal and Societal Issues" before you ask such a question? So many here are strong on the idea of UTFSE anyway or so it seems.

Oh, I have read every single one of those posts. Many I have read more than once. I have not found evidence of persecution, but lots of paranoia, which is not persecution.

As for United Nuclear, they are still going strong, selling radioactive sources, sodium metal and so forth.

Mr Deeb was not exactly persecuted, not charged with a crime, nor thrown in jail. The problem was improper of storage of hazardous chemicals and some of us might indeed be have trouble meeting those requirements.

On the other hand, read about the experiences of Undead_alchemist whose neighbors thought they smelled gas and he was visited by the authorities. He had to upgrade his facilities, but apparently was charged with nothing and suffered none of Magpie's dreaded Five Fates.

My post specifically referred to hobby chemistry, not things that go boom. Fireworks and explosives are regulated for good reason, and those rules apply to all citizens, not just amateur pyro's. So I was just referring to hobby science that is not outright prohibited.

I was also referring to the type of hobby science that does not annoy or scare the neighbors or authorities. If you draw that type of attention to yourself, I don't think you're being persecuted, but rather just asking for trouble.

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by entropy51]

woelen - 11-2-2010 at 12:27

Well things can sometimes be scary, even for innocent people doing just home chemistry. You still remember the 600 raids in Germany of July 2008? Most of them have never seen back their chemicals or only part of their chemicals were returned. Some were raided for just ordering a liter of 65% HNO3 or a liter of 35% H2O2. Copper sulfate was mentioned as an explosives precursor (for making TACN).

And what to say about your reputation when at 6.30 in the morning in full daylight (at summer, July) multiple police cars stop in front of your house and the street is blocked for a few hours because all your chemicals, glassware and other equipment are taken out of the house and moved in special hazmat containers? No one received a single excuse for this and some of them are regarded as criminals or would-be terrorists by their neighbours. The company, selling the chemicals to those hobbyists now is ruined and does not exist anymore. Other small companies in Germany now also stopped selling chemicals out of fear for legal action against them.

IrC - 11-2-2010 at 12:32

entropy51, Nitpicking? I think gun toting black ski masked men breaking into a home which is also a business in the dead of night is covered in the definition of persecution. Improper storage? How would they know before the raid and what evidence prompted said raid. U.N. tells their own story so I defer to them on that one. Going after the source of supplies for us since they are known whereas we are too hard to locate as a means to shut us down indirectly is in my mind part of the definition. So since those experimenting with rocket fuels or firework formulations are not into chemistry simply because they do not build safe volcanoes or grow weird crystals or whatever it is you do this justifies your exclusion of them from the hobby?

Improper storage? Fire Marshals. If danger is suspected they go in during business hours, do inspections, issue citations, cease and desist orders, or other actions. The ski masked gunmen raiding in the night is for one reason only outside of some dire felonious situation. Namely, FEAR, and the creation thereof. For them, for us, for political talking points, and/or for whatever else is on their agenda. Period.

[Edited on 2-11-2010 by IrC]

entropy51 - 11-2-2010 at 12:45

I didn't exclude them from chemistry. But their situation is different from non-pyro chemistry because the explosives and fireworks laws do expose them to legal jeopardy that the non-pyro can ignore. I think. Just different situations for the two groups. I implied no value judgment.

Insofar as know, there is no law against my making a small amount of chems such as AcOH or EtOAc, and I do those sorts of things. On the other hand, it is illegal to light so much a sparkler in the jurisdiction where I live. No, really, I'm not making that up. So I know that anything resembling pyro is definitely out. That's all that I meant.

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by entropy51]

IrC - 11-2-2010 at 12:55

I can see your reasoning there and am not trying to impute anything in any way but I will not go along with the thought process. I think I will use our beloved Bromic Acid. I love the stuf that guy does in his backyard. Scares the crapola out of me to think bromine fumes are floating past my window (if I were a neighbor) I much prefer the exploding rockets landing on my roof. Just pointing out danger is danger so this cannot in my mind be part of it as means of separation or exclusion.

Anyway gotta run, this post just made me 20 minutes late for work but just had to jump in before too many posts altered the thought process on the fly in this thread. Great debating will check in later.

hissingnoise - 11-2-2010 at 13:41

Quite a number of us though *are* pyros and I like a few others am solely into energetics. . .
Because of the bald fact that we find ordinary safe-chemistry unexciting as a hobby we can expect to have to face the full rigours of the law if we're found out!
From this perspective, that sucks!

entropy51 - 11-2-2010 at 14:45

I think it's ridiculous that we aren't even allowed to light a sparkler, but that's the way it is. I can't change it. I can do lots of chemistry without getting in trouble.

About those raids in Germany:

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

But according to messages on Internet (whether it is true or not, it is unclear to me), the company had a second 'shadow company' which was selling GBL on a multitonne-scale, some customers needed to be supplied by tank-trucks or with drums of hundreds of liters. I hardly can believe this story, given the perfect service, quality and adherence to rules and regulations of the company. This really was a good company, also respecting all rules of the EU, and not some shady thing like the chemical closet.[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen]

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

One of the guys (chemieknolle) from www.versuchschemie.de was raided and they found K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3 and a whole bunch of other chemicals. The chemicals were taken away, but now the chemicals were returned to him, except the K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3.

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

The company which was raided in Germany is back in business again with a new and better-looking website: http://www.lippert-lehrmittel.de

There is more speculation than fact in that thread, but this doesn't sound like wholesale persecution of amateur chemists to me. It sounds as if the authorities were after specific things and amateur chemists were collateral damage.

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by entropy51]

unome - 11-2-2010 at 15:31

I lost ALL of my equipment/Glassware, ALL of my Chemicals and several computers, plus my home was subjected to serious damage to the electrical wiring, the roof, the ceiling and several wall panels. I am yet to receive so much as an apology, let alone recompense.

This despite the fact that the prosecution was thrown out of Court as an abuse of process. It can and it DOES happen. In terms of 'probable cause', purchasing a liter of paint thinner or acetone, will be sufficient.

entropy51 - 11-2-2010 at 15:43

Quote: Originally posted by unome

I lost ALL of my equipment/Glassware, ALL of my Chemicals and several computers, plus my home was subjected to serious damage to the electrical wiring, the roof, the ceiling and several wall panels. I am yet to receive so much as an apology, let alone recompense.

This despite the fact that the prosecution was thrown out of Court as an abuse of process. It can and it DOES happen. In terms of 'probable cause', purchasing a liter of paint thinner or acetone, will be sufficient.

Did anything in particular result in this interest in your hobby? I buy hardware store chemicals like acetone, H2SO4, HCl, KMnO4, NaOH etc etc all the time and have never had such experiences. Please be more specific about what types of things we should be avoiding to stay off the radar.

IrC - 11-2-2010 at 20:10

Somewhere here is the story I told maybe 5 or 6 years ago and is too long to retell it all but : was going prospecting and getting ready I went to a little white building (1984 IIRC) around 32nd st/Thomas in Phoenix. Needed HNO3 and a few other items for my mineral test kit. Anyway sign said chemical supply. Every chemical there was drug related (trap shop) and they had nothing in the line of the simple common things. Pissed me off, (you drive around heavy traffic all day in that city trying to find supplies, I lived on west side, long way, big pain) so I bitched about it. Walked in like I had right to do what I wanted, all I did was legit. Plus remember in 84 it was not like today. Having never made illegal things in my life why should I care what they thought. Screw the bastards if they want to put up a shop and advertise don't make me drive through all that for nothing! Anyway I said as much, why do you have nothing normal people need, all you are is a drug supply house? I left.

3 days later all the way across the valley this California surfer looking dude knocks on my door asking if I would help him make coke or whatever it was I don't recall now for 20 grand. Never saw him before in my life. Being curious as to how he came to my door I decided to let him in and let him give his sales pitch figuring eventually I could get out of him what brought him to my door.

I know people I was being dumber than a box of rocks but hey it was 84 and besides I was untouchable assuming he was not going to plant something. I had a very complete lab all decked out around the place probably a few thousand different bottles of who knows what all around but they could have brought in all the 3 letter agencies and no way could they have found a thing. Today being much more cynical I should add unless they put it there. I think the term is I was stupidly fearless. Talked a long time about chemistry but realized this was never going to get me anywhere so I did what any self respecting nerd would have done. I picked up my submachine gun (yes it was legal for me at that time) and started toying with it, pulling the clip out to make sure all 36 rounds were in there, cocking, uncocking, putting clip back, in general just playing with my toy as he talked. I told him no way was I going to risk my future making the things I saw destroying kids around town daily. He was really starting to sweat. Wish I would have had a scanning FM receiver as I am sure our conversation was going somewhere outside to someone sitting in a van. He got up and said well I guess you are not interested but hey do you have any recipes I could use? I said I don't know maybe I have an old Mr Natural book around somewhere he could have and looked through a pile of papers but of course I was feeding a line of crap but this was getting fun. I still wanted to know why he came to my house. Of course the asking for a formula was his last ditch attempt to implicate me on at least conspiracy if he could get nothing else. Then getting nervous to a high degree he suddenly had to go. Lucky me never saw him again.

All I could do was assume they took down the plate number off my car at the little white building as I was leaving a few days before. Checked registration address to find my house, and decided to trap me. Point is they were trying to get me in on a crime and failing that were assuming I was dumb enough to not know I could be had for something as innocuous as giving up a recipe or formula or whatever on conspiracy alone. Desperate to take a nerd who had never been involved in crime, create one, and throw away the rest of my life. In no way whatsoever at that supply house at any time did I say anything which would lead a reasonable person (or even an unreasonable one) to think I was or had ever been, or would ever wish to be, involved in making illegal drugs. Or anything else illegal for that matter. They had no right to do to me the things they were trying to do and also I consider this a blatant attempt using taxpayer dollars to create a crime out of nothing and turn me an innocent law abiding taxpayer into a criminal moments before they took me down. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the job of LE was to find criminals not make them. Lucky him I was a nice guy 26 years ago, he did not identify himself. Today, who knows.

OK, a lot of typing to answer one small question. This was in my mind, a good (one out of many) example of what I call PERSECUTION.

MagicJigPipe - 11-2-2010 at 21:27

Quote:

Oh, I have read every single one of those posts. Many I have read more than once. I have not found evidence of persecution, but lots of paranoia, which is not persecution.

I think you are wrong about that. It's not extreme right now, but maybe it will be some day. But about yourself...

Maybe you are just lucky. Maybe you don't have crazy family members or snoopy neighbors. Maybe you have the means (financially) to defend yourself to the death in court. Many don't, however, hence the paranoia. You are being obtuse.

woelen - 12-2-2010 at 00:13

Quote:

I also think that this was not an action directly aimed at home chemists, but it is really bad if such a large group of people are suffering from what you call 'collateral damage'. I don't care about the reason of this, if I were raided it would be really bad, whether this is because of collateral damage, or directly aimed at home chemists.

The company did an attempt to restart (I wrote about that), but he stopped his business on the first of october. He sold his surplus stock of chemicals and that's it: http://www.lippert-chemikalien.de/
On the german forum he explained why he stopped. Too many people are afraid of buying chemicals in this company, they fear another round of raids. The owner of the company also had a very hard time with official agencies and they are keeping an eye on him very strongly. These reasons were enough for him to quit the chemical supply business.

The example you mention from my thread demonstrates what I said higher up in this thread. Chemieknolle received most of his chemicals, but not all (the KNO3 and K4Fe(CN6) were not returned). These chemicals are legal and there is not a single EU-rule which tells that you may not own these chemicals. K4Fe(CN)6 even is present in modern neutered "chemistry boxes".

entropy51 - 12-2-2010 at 06:52

Quote:

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the job of LE was to find criminals not make them. Lucky him I was a nice guy 26 years ago, he did not identify himself. Today, who knows.

IrC, are you holding this up as an example of the risks we all face daily as amateur chemists? I thought we were talking about the current situation, not some strange event from 25 years ago. I can only speak for myself, but I doubt that sort of wierdness happens to the average amateur chemist. Wouldn't you agree?

I think your assumption that this stranger was LE is just that, an assumption.

Frankly I have my doubts. I think if LE was after you and he saw the lab you describe, and your weapon, he would have been back with a warrant faster than you can say "probable cause". And if he was LE, apparently he decided you were not a cook and that was the end of the matter, wasn't it? Doesn't sound like persecution to me. LE would probably call it an "investigation".

Equally possible is that he was a dealer looking for a cook and had somehow heard about your lab that was apparently openly displayed. Or perhaps a cook looking to shut down the competition he thought you represented.

I have to check the paranoia column on this one.

entropy51 - 12-2-2010 at 07:22

Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe

Maybe you are just lucky. Maybe you don't have crazy family members or snoopy neighbors. Maybe you have the means (financially) to defend yourself to the death in court. Many don't, however, hence the paranoia. You are being obtuse.

Apparently I'm not the only forum member who is lucky. We have thousands of members, some of whom probably have reason to be paranoid, but it seems like the majority of us practice our hobby without major problems.

Everyone has either crazy relatives or snoopy neighbors (the only kind, I think) including myself.

But in spite of plumbers, electricians, county sewer workers, furnace repairman, and gas meter readers having been in my lab at one time or another I've never needed a lawyer. Perhaps because I lock my glassware and chems away in cabinets at those times. Discretion is the better part of valor.

No, we can't go down to Fisher and buy things off the shelf like you could in the 1950's. But that's just how it is, and we manage anyway. It doesn't make me feel persecuted.

Many of the events reported on this forum are of the type "The clerk in the Walmart looked at me funny when I bought 20 liters of acetone." Well, duh. I'd look at you funny if I was a Walmart clerk too. I read about forum members buying huge quantities of chemicals and I wonder "What are they thinking? They keep that shit in their house? Or sometimes, "You bought what on e-bay??" We make our own luck, don't we?

Magpie - 12-2-2010 at 12:41

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

But in spite of plumbers, electricians, county sewer workers, furnace repairman, and gas meter readers having been in my lab at one time or another I've never needed a lawyer. Perhaps because I lock my glassware and chems away in cabinets at those times.

When discretion indicates that the hobby chemist lock his glassware and chems away when service people are in his lab, then by the definition of some he has a clandestine lab.

This is the same boat in which I find myself. This makes me feel persecuted, as it is unjust.

entropy51 - 12-2-2010 at 13:15

Yes, I have to agree that it is unjust, but I guess I don't feel persecuted. I keep most of the stuff in the cabinets when I'm not using it so it's not a big deal. When I was a teenager my lab was a smallish room in my parent's house and anyone visiting could see all of it. I wish it were still like that, but that's not the world we live in now. On the upside, I have LOTS more stuff now.

I guess I do feel for the pyro guys; the work Magpie and I do is unlikely to attract much attention, which is not a bad thing.

MagicJigPipe - 12-2-2010 at 14:53

Quote:

They keep that shit in their house?

Examples?

MagicJigPipe - 12-2-2010 at 15:34

I still don't get what's wrong with it. Where do you live, a cave? La la land?

I saw a several people pick up around 15-20 ~2 L bottles of propane at Wal-Mart the other day in preparation for the "snowstorm". Like I said before, what of it? Yeah, I laughed at them because it was excessive but...

Are you forgetting to put a zero in front of that 19? They have 20+ 25 lb tanks down at my local gas station. People use similar amounts of propane to power their grills. These are 5 gallon tanks. If the SG of propane is .5 that would be 40 L which is about 10 gal. You think two standard propane tanks is excessive?

I understand the only reason we don't find it excessive is that it's common place but it's not exactly high-risk activity.

Surely you were confused as to how much propane 19 kg is.

EDIT

It's even possible if not probable that most of us here have more flammable/explosive chemical energy stored in our vehicles. Perhaps even taking into account the increased energy/damage from pressurized fuel. I'll go do the calculations now, to see.

[Edited on 2-12-2010 by MagicJigPipe]

MagicJigPipe - 12-2-2010 at 19:49

Didn't have to notice. I mentioned pressure. Which reminds me; I forgot about those calculations. Let's see if that pressure adds up to more energy being released (I realize that the pressure counts for even more because of the flammability but I'm sticking to straight numbers for now).

And yes, even the hillbillies in Arkansas keep them outside (or in a garage). Satisfied?

"Even in Arkansas" ... heh ... (but he's right)

EDIT

Okay. Let me know if I'm making a mistake here. 20,000 g of propane at atmospheric pressure (MW = 44.1) is about 10,200 L or 10.2 m^3. Pressure of propane at about 20*C is 275,800 Pa. Multiplying pressure and volume give a unit of N*m so this seems to be accurate: 2.8 megajoules. So, of course, if released in one second that's 2.8 megawatts OR about 600 g of TNT. That's a pretty decent amount of energy, eh? But of course TNT's is released in microseconds while this is release over a much longer period of time. Now for chemical energy:

According to this one mole of propane combusts to produce 2040 kJ of energy. We had about 450 moles so that's 918 MJ. 2.8 + 918 ~~ 920 MJ. So, the pressure is negligible considering just numbers.

(let's assume no potential/pressure energy for gasoline)

So, lets say around 400 L of gasoline (two typical cars filled to the top). This place says 45.8 MJ/kg. Gasoline has density of about .74 g/mL (according to Wikipedia). So, 400,000 times .74 is about 300,000 g = 300 kg. That's about 14 GJ or 3 * 10^-4 kT.

So, with raw numbers, even partially filled gas tanks have more energy than 20 kg of propane. Now, of course circumstantially propane might cause more damage but... Well, I was just curious.

[Edited on 2-13-2010 by MagicJigPipe]

IrC - 12-2-2010 at 20:25

"Perhaps because I lock my glassware and chems away in cabinets at those times. Discretion is the better part of valor."

entropy51 no one knew about my lab as it was inside a large industrial complex in a private house where I got discount rent to watch the cameras all around at night. You could not see my place from the outside, it had a usually locked narrow gate in front with a long walkway to the house, completely enclosed in 11 foot high walls. I at that time had no acquaintances in that area, I worked alone and most of my supplies came by shipments meaning neither did I have any supply house haunts to go to (the reason I looked in town for HNO3 due to hazmat S/H as well as the time frame I wanted it on for my soon to come prospecting trip). I was as invisible as it gets. You say I assume LE and I say you do not know what you are talking about. Saying 26 years ago does not count is as naive as it gets as well. Things are worse now not better. What rock do you hide under when your chems are hidden away in locked places so no one knows causing you to assume there is no danger for us from snoops. If there was none why the hiding away. They do not know where osama is this does not mean they are not interested in finding him. Osama never needed a lawyer yet either so that proof of yours means nothing. Going back to your quote so there is nothing to fear yet you hide.

You post opinions based upon assumptions without knowledge. You were not there, knew nothing about my circumstances, nothing of the location nor people who knew me. There was no way anyone heard through the grapevine about a lab they could approach. Especially since at that time I was the only one of the millions in the valley who knew about my lab. The businesses in the complex knew nothing about my lab and were around more than anyone since the entrance to my location was locked most of the time. I usually locked it when I entered unless I was heading back out soon which was the case that day. Otherwise the guy would have never been at my door. In fact he must have had to walk around looking for an entrance since the only information from the outside was my address number out front, and he would have had to climb a dozen feet up the fence to even see there was a house. From the outside all you could tell was there were unapproachable manufacturing business from my side. The entrance to the rest was on the side street.

Only LE would have gone to that much trouble to get in not to mention you were not privy to all the conversation, body language, and numerous other clues the guys entire story was contrived. So in short you discount my story based upon your useless assumptions.

ninefingers - 16-2-2010 at 10:11

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

Quote: Originally posted by unome

and the knowledge on how to combine them, does that mean I have ANY intention of baking a cake?

No, information and having it is still Ist amendment (at least it is at this writing. :mad:

) Any fool can claim "Homeland Security" now on anything, though, even having gas for the lawnmower. Some friends decades ago made little pipe bombs of gunpowder in crimped shell casings; they went to to Juvy for it --and then said I was going to be arrested 'cause I "told them how" (I didn't). Anyway, the cops may have "said" that to them, but they never did anything---probably talked to a lawyer who said conspiracy was on the boys' part, not Mine.
(These days, the father whose reloading gear was "accessible" by the Boys would have been indicted. Quite fair...)
I can have a gun and a friend then tell me how to be a sniper, but killing a person would be My responsibility as the conspiracy was mine.

[Edited on 2-16--1010 by ninefingers]

NitratedKittens - 27-11-2016 at 07:06

Quote: Originally posted by unome

I also have flour, eggs & milk - and the knowledge on how to combine them, does that mean I have ANY intention of baking a cake?

I f**ing lost it at this

Chlorine - 27-11-2016 at 07:11

People will always fear what they don't understand.

Cultural change

Chemetix - 28-11-2016 at 14:30

I haven't been active on this site for very long but I have a long history of backyardism and can appreciate the sort of goings on the members indulge in. The one trend that worries us is the way we are viewed by media and uneducated observers as, increasingly, a danger to others. I have seen the way the Australian landscape has gone from the iconic '...she'll be right mate!' casual disregard for petty concerns, to having a State with the unofficial title 'The Nanny State'.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-29/cover-your-pepsi,-stas...

No petty concern is too small to avoid legislature and penalties for disobeying them. Our hobby and even science itself is under threat from the rest who don't understand and overreact, relying on their emotionally driven opinions. I'm penning this little essay for a reason, I've noticed that we are at risk becoming our own enemies and I'm bringing this up to avoid a situation where 'divided we fall.'

Scientists don't traditionally advocate, they avoid the emotional hyperventilation that makes them scientists in the first place. As an example; a situation has occurred recently where a dumb arse politician has wanted to move a government agency to his electorate because it has the impressive sounding title of pesticides and veterinary medicines authority.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-25/pesticides-veterinary-...

It's a regulatory body, not a consulting agency. The scientists who work there are risk assessors, they go through the publications and legislature to ensure certain products make it into the Australian market or stay in the Australian market under current laws and guidelines. What the hell do they need to be in rural Armidale for? Barnaby Joyce (circus music please!..thank you) has a long history of being more than just a typical politician making decisions based on perceived votes or his particular brand of ignorance.
http://reneweconomy.com.au/barnaby-joyce-nails-abbott-govt-c...

Did the scientists rally and placard his electoral office and jostle for positions on talkback radio to vent their outrage? No, they just started thinking about updating their resumes and wondering if they can afford the move and consider taking their kids from their schools? I know because I have family doing just that. I think that given the way the global society is going, our lack of advocacy should change, but in order to do so there need to be some internal structure.

What I find troubling on Science madness is the trend to distance one chemical venture from another. There is open hostility on 'cookery', a venture that seems to be looked at as a pure indulgence in profiteering from peddling poison. A meth fueled rant in a post on converting psuedo is obviously more closely aligned to that position. And I can see that given current legal views, we just don't need the heat. But a post that asks for a technique that although seems transparently aimed at a maligned TM, but via a several precursor route, is not a money making venture. And yet the internal hostility is still there. What I am afraid of is if we go down the path of 'don't go after me I'm only making coloured crystals not drugs or bombs', then the legislators will slowly take away every avenue to procure or own anything less benign than play dough and craft glue. There are hundreds of thousands out there, across the globe, who either make and take drugs or make explosives and are neither sociopaths or terrorists. They take and manage risks like every other chemical endeavor, and it's the legislators and the ignorant who want to make that decision for us.

If we want to defend our ability to take and manage risks then it should be framed as such, all types of risks not just in one field and not another. Clearly we need this up to a point, there are upper limits to the kind of things that can be out there without oversight. But to get to a position where it's reasonable to own and use chemicals and equipment for fun and education, we as a collective are going to have to think about organising and setting a political agenda that seeks to allow us to manage our own risks safely. How we do this needs unity and discussion. Because in the current cultural battle between the timid and the curious, the timid are slowly going have us all clinging to our pillows, filling out risk assessment forms before going shopping. Because the politicians and media are more than happy to sell them fear and platitudes rather than education and understanding. I hope we can stop the trend of seeing any risk as too much risk, taking away science and discovery.

[Edited on 29-11-2016 by Chemetix]

JnPS - 28-11-2016 at 21:36

I second Chemetix, being a new member here myself. Having a community like SM to discuss chemistry and for sharing a mutual interest in scientific discovery is great. While there will always be room for improvement in being more accepting and having a more unified front in the war on chemophopbia, we should be careful about failing as bad as the US' war on drugs.

While each situation will always be different, shouting someone down for what seems like blatant dangerous or what you may know to be stupid practices will always be a double-edged sword; even if it is the apparent best course of action. Giving advice and explaining the dangers both chemical, physical, and legal will always be more effective then degrading others and sometimes pushing people away from science. To add to Chemetix's point we will need all the support we can get in this battle of perceptions. We should be trying to draw new people in rather than push them out. If ignorance makes people afraid of what we do we should try and attack the root of the problem, a scientifically illiterate society. At the moment, doing this will be our job for the most part, as we all know, the education systems in place won't do it. Hopefully one day this changes.

However like others have said there will always need to be a balance. I am extremely grateful for the 'bucket of cold water' thrown in my face when I started trying to make propofol and received what I believe to be an appropriate backlash. I was naive and just wanted to try my hand at some beginner organic syntheses thinking I was finally ready to do the fun stuff. Needless to say I will refrain from going back to that endeavor until I am better educated and with more experience.