Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Where to Experiment?

Where to Experiment?

hodges - 7-1-2004 at 16:34

I hope I have not missed a similar topic. I did not see one in the titles of this section, which is where I would expect it if there was one. I am curious as to where those of you who have apartments do your experiments.

Back when I was in high school and college, I did my experiments at my parents house. We were in the suburbs so we had neighbors - but still most of the time I could do things outside without really bothering anyone (if a neighbor was working outside I wouldn't do anything that involved smells, smoke, etc.). That was many years ago. Now that I live in an apartment, there are some reactions I can't do. Pretty much anything involving any significant quantity of gases, especially ones with odors. Pretty much nothing with fire. Sure, I can heat test tubes with a candle and heat small amounts of stuff with a butane torch. But pyrotechnics is pretty much out of the question.

One thing I was never successful doing when I was in high school was making thermite. Recently I obtained some aluminum powder so would like to try again. I have a friend with a house and he says "sure, bring it over here and do it in my yard!". But he has a rather small yard, and I can imagine attracting the attention of his neighbors. So where would I do something like set off a small quantity of thermite? Or if I was going to do a reaction that might produce gases like H2S?

It seems like there should be a place somewhere in the middle of nowhere where people could rent space for a day and do experiments (perhaps even with supervision, as is done when amateur rocket shows allow amateurs to display their creations on property they are renting). Someone should set up a Mad Scientists convention where everyone gets to bring their creations and test them without having to worry about neighbors.

I will probably end up making the thermite at my friend's place in the spring. Him and his neighbors have a serious problem with moles, and he has asked if I could make some kind of mix that would smoke them out. So, come spring, I should be able to do this and experiment with my thermite mixes at the same time. And if any neighbors see me and find out that I'm trying something to get rid of the moles, they would likely not be upset at all. But that's only going to do for one time. If I'm always there to "get rid of moles" people are going to start to wonder.

Anyone else who lives in an apartment who has solved this problem?

Hodges

Haggis - 7-1-2004 at 16:58

First off, I just want to get this out of the way, a simple more-get-rid-of mix is simple smoke with added sulfur.

Now, there are ways you can experiment inside if it emits cases. One idea would be to make a glovebox out of plexiglass, or failing that, a Rubbermaid tub. Said tub would have a fan with a hose and fresh air coming in, and a fan and a hose (similar to dryer vent hose) leaving, pushing vapors out into the atmosphere.

If you're not wanting to vent it out the window on level with the houses or street, another option is to run it into a vent pipe for a stove or chimney. Either accellerate the gases out of the chimney with another fan, or let the wind venturi the fumes out of the top.

Another option is venting it into the bathroom with the fan running, drawing the fumes out the top. This may smell up your bathroom, and make it unusable, but it's the better choice if you don't have a chimney.

Also, another method would be running it through a series of scrubbers. Water for sure, then through a couple filters of charcoal for good measure. This should clean most smells emitted by a small scale amature chemist, and anything that needed something special could easily be rigged with another filter with, say, NaOH. This setup would need some heavy duty pumps or something else to pull the fumes through the scrubbers. Medical pumps are nice and quite sturdy. Mine has a half inch imput and half inch output, regular screw on attachment. It could be set between the water filter and the charcoal filters, pulling it through the water, and pushing it through the charcoal.

Perhaps some more hints about your apartment or layout could help us.

BromicAcid - 7-1-2004 at 17:11

Quote:

So where would I do something like set off a small quantity of thermite? Or if I was going to do a reaction that might produce gases like H2S?

In my opinion those are two very different things. I can see most people getting away with thermite, minimal smoke, little to no smell, no boom. But the hydrogen sulfide, poisonous foul smelling chemical that might attract attention due to some of its illicit uses. Personally I would look for a relative that lives outside of city limits. If that doesn't pan out and you're pretty heavy into chemistry you could always buy a small lot of land off somewhere. But like was just said, if you get a fume hood together with some scrubbers in place you've increased what you can do in your own home by a significant factor.

where to experiment

Magpie - 7-1-2004 at 21:56

This is a subject that has been heavy on my mind for some time now. I live a conventional life in the suburbs with a wife and kids - I just happen to also be an amateur chemist. So I'm struggling with the subject problem, facing many of the same concerns as the apartment dweller. My neighbors like me and so do the police, DEA, etc, and I'd like to keep it that way.

So I'm considering construction or purchase of an outbuilding in a private location. I also have decided that the city sewer system is the way to handle most all of the liquid/slurry wastes. This places me within the city limits. Wastes I can't/won't dispose down the sewer must be delivered to the city dump as hazardous/toxic waste or sent to a professional waste handler and considered an expense of my hobby.

Another fundamental decision is to go "open" or "clandestine." I would much prefer to go "open" but haven't decided on this yet.

Security of my building, equipment, and chemicals is another big issue.

The biggest problem with worrying about all this is I'm not getting any experimenting done.

Any more suggestions from those who have experience(s) in these areas would be most welcome.

hodges - 10-1-2004 at 08:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Haggis
Perhaps some more hints about your apartment or layout could help us.

I'm on the 3rd (top) floor. I have two neighbors immediately adjacent. One lives below me - he works long hours and does not get home until after 9PM and is often gone on Saturdays as well. The other is a retired couple, their kitchen being adjacent to my kitchen. They are home a lot and I can't often tell when they are home or not since they are pretty quiet. I know both neighbors to say hi to and they seem reasonably friendly although I don't know a lot about them. There are six apartments in the building, but the others are not adjacent to me.

I have a cement patio off my living room. From the ground, no one can really see what is on the patio. The next building is relatively close however and presumably two of the apartments could see what I have through their window. The only thing I've ever done outside that has to do with chemistry is refilling my butane torch.

My kitchen has an exhaust fan above the stove; however I would be wary of using it because the pipe leading outside is shared with the neighbor aside of me. I have sometimes been able to smell things from my apartment when they are cooking and they turn on their exhaust fan. My bathroom has an exhaust fan with its own vent on the roof (not shared with any other apartment).

It is a white-collar neighborhood, although being in New York it is not real conservative like a similar neighborhood in the Midwest would be.

My interests are totally in inorganic chemistry - the closest to organic I've ever came was using vinegar for a reaction. I'm not interested in any kind of explosives, although I am interested in a few energetic reactions such as thermite.

Hodges

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 11-1-2004 at 21:04

I live in a condominium. I usually crawl like soldier toward the balcony carrying beakers and stuff ...
but for complicated experiments I move the equipments to roof fortunately there aren't any higher flats around to see me

Indoor Thermite

hodges - 15-1-2004 at 19:31

I've recently made and used small amounts of thermite-type reactions inside my apartment, without damaging anything and without arousing any neighbor suspicions (that I know of).

I've made thermite using the following combinations of oxidiser/reducer: Fe2O3/Al, CuO/Al, CaSO4/Al,CuO/Mg. In each case, I have made a very small amount - under 1 gram. I place the thermite on a piece of steel box that was part of a gas barbeque grill ignitor that I bought for $2 to use for producing sparks for another project. I then place this in the stainless steel kitchen sink, after removing any nearby flamable materials.

I've used magnesium ribbon to light the Al thermites, but I find that this procedure is not too reliable as the Mg tends to go out. What I have found that has yet to fail is to use a small quantity (around 0.5g) of Al/S mixture. I place a short (1 inch) length of thick string that has been dipped in KNO3 solution and allowed to dry. This will light with a lighter. People think this type of "fuse" burns unreliably. The rate is slow and uneven, but I've never had it fail to light the Al/S mixture. The Al/S mixture gets hot enough to light the thermite - even the CaSO4/Al type.

I find that the Al/S burns about 0.5 seconds and then ignites the thermite, which burns about 1 second. The Al/S mixture does not produce any SO2 like a black powder mixture would, and it produces little smoke. The only bad thing about Al/S is that the resulting product must be flushed down the sink fairly quickly after the reaction is complete or else it starts reacting with moisture in the air to produce H2S.

In each case of the metal oxides I've gotten small droplets of metal in the products. The steel box has developed a sag in the middle where the reactions have taken place but has not yet melted all the way through. Although the flame extends a foot or two into the air during the reaction, I have not had any problems with flying sparks outside the sink. I'm using pyro grade dark aluminum and I think these particles are too small to travel very far.

Once I am familiar with the speed of the reactions involved I will be ready to make larger quantities outside in a friend's yard.

Hodges

guaguanco - 16-1-2004 at 09:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie

Another fundamental decision is to go "open" or "clandestine." I would much prefer to go "open" but haven't decided on this yet.

As a family man, you don't have an option: you have to be open about this. If the police discover a covert chemistry lab, they come down like a ton of bricks. Could be terrorists or Meth manufacturers. How long can you afford to be in jail until your innocence is (hopefully) established? To do this properly, you probably need to establish a small business and be totally out in the open. It sucks but it's reality nowadays.

establishing a small business

Polverone - 16-1-2004 at 17:01

Doesn't doing chemistry as a business of sorts (even an unprofitable one) open you up to more regulation? Ordinary, private users of chemicals (the general public using OTC chemical products) are subject to very little scrutiny. If you want to have a small business lab, is that something that you can still set up in a garage or outbuilding near the home? Or do you need to set it up in a properly zoned space, complying with health and safety regulations in the storage and handling of chemicals and general setup of the lab? The cost could be prohibitive. On the other hand, if small businesses aren't subject to too many regulations, it could be a great way to "go open" and indulge your scientific curiousity without too much suspicious skulking. It could even make ordering materials and equipment easier.

open vs clandestine

Magpie - 16-1-2004 at 20:43

To me the real question is to whether one should go "open" or "clandestine." Clandestine could be with a front hobby like color photography and/or beer/winemaking. Then couldn't you just go right down to the City Police and say "look, I've got these legal hobbies where I have some legal chemicals and legal glassware, so please don't come in and bust me in the middle of the night."? Would this be a dumb thing to do?

To go "open" would likely entail establishing a small business of some kind. I'm trying to find the answers to the very questions Polverone asks without tipping my hand unnecessarily or prematurely to the authorities.

guaguanco - 17-1-2004 at 15:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie
To me the real question is to whether one should go "open" or "clandestine." Clandestine could be with a front hobby like color photography and/or beer/winemaking. Then couldn't you just go right down to the City Police and say "look, I've got these legal hobbies where I have some legal chemicals and legal glassware, so please don't come in and bust me in the middle of the night."? Would this be a dumb thing to do?

To go "open" would likely entail establishing a small business of some kind. I'm trying to find the answers to the very questions Polverone asks without tipping my hand unnecessarily or prematurely to the authorities.

Well, I used to have a very nice chemlab and a very nice array of reagents when I was a senior in High School. I now have a house and a family. I cannot imagine a set of circumstances where I could setup a similar lab nowadays (without spending massive amounts of money and time), not legally. In my fantasies I would love to have access to all that fun stuff and be able to do lots of syntheses, but in the real world of regulations, paranoia and John Ashcroft I would never submit my family to those risks.
If you went the legal business route, you wouldn't march down to the police station and declare yourself. You'd just setup a business and go to work. Just dispose of things legally and don't try to buy restricted chemicals.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 17-1-2004 at 16:09

Quote:

No offense magpie...But..........yes.

Just be normal! Normal people don't worry about being busted, normal people definitely do not go up to police officers and ask them not to bust them.

That would be just plain weird.

The term "Clandestine" gets thrown around alot lately....

\Clan*des"tine\, a. [L. clandestinus, fr. clam secretly; akin to celare, E. conceal: cf. F. clandestin.] Conducted with secrecy; withdrawn from public notice, usually for an evil purpose; kept secret; hidden; private; underhand; as, a clandestine marriage. --Locke.

People forget that it's just a term slapped on by the authorities or whoever to add an impression of EVIL to a term that most people find innocuous.

"Laboratory" sounds innocent to the public, whereas "Clandestine Lab" sounds sinister.

I understand that most of you guys live in a fascist state (U.S.)

But if you're not breaking the law (and even if you are) the likelyhood of you getting busted from procurement or experimentation is actually pretty slim. The vast majority of "clandestine labs" get busted by being ratted out from the dopers who get a little greedy.

Alot of us foreigners follow the antics of the U.S. government's antics avidly, it helps to spice up a slow newsday with a "those crazy yanks!" story.

Something I've noticed is the US Gov'ts fondness for informants, it seems to be common for the Gov't to go to extraordinairy lengths to protect their pet rats. One technique is to lie about how they got the info leading to the search warrant leading to the bust.

They get a rat who drops the dime on a chemist, then they do the bust, THEN they sift through the lab records collected after the bust to find a "suspicious combination of items" and then they present that in court as justification. Often, if that seems particularly weak they'll throw in "neighbor's complained of smells and strange noises".

The fact is, with billions of domestic orders per year, there is simply no way the fed's are going to "get you" or even get a search warrant based upon orders unless you make up a laundry list of drug precursors and order them all from a single supplier at once.

So just buy small, and spread orders out.

I've got a bit of an interest in criminology and I have learned something from reading case account of big set-ups and stings and cases built against the really bad boys.

The american gestapo are frightening, but generally lazy and incompetent........its the american way!

And it always comes down to an informant in the end.

Not like Canada at all, alot of us still got taught as kids that no-one likes a tattletale and as a result we don't have any sort of witness protection program.

Magpie - 17-1-2004 at 20:15

Hermes: I see your point; doing a pre-emptive consult with the police would likely appear weird.

Guaguacano: I completely agree with you about the health and safety issue in regard to my family as well as myself. The older I get and the more I read this forum the more respect I have for the potential dangers inherent in experimental chemistry. I believe this is especially true in that we likely work alone most of the time thereby violating one of the fundamental tenets of working in the lab, i.e., "don't work alone." Unless I'm working with edible substances, my experimenting will be in an outbuilding.

I'm thinking now of 3 models synthesized from the opinions in this thread:

Model 1: Set up a small business with letterhead and tax number. Zoning and regulations would apply. The severity of these regulations would seem very dependent on your business plan. My car repairman generates hazardous wastes but he says it is not much of a problem. But I'm sure he has costs associated with waste disposal.

Model 2: Just do your chemistry legally and above board. Try not to offend your neighbors with loud noises, intimidating deflagrations, or noxious odors. Use proper waste disposal. If the neighbors ask questions give them enough truthful information to make them feel comfortable. Give them the impression that you are responsible and competent.

Model 3: Legal but somewhat covert using a "front" hobby. This might be smart if you think your neighbors would resent on principle you doing chemistry. Once you get complaints to the police being legal may not do you any good in today's paranoid world.

I would appreciate hearing any comments, additions, and/or improvements you might have to the above models.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 17-1-2004 at 20:36

I thoroghly agree with option #2 with one major change.

DO NOT tell your neighbors the truth. People are stupid, ignorant and blind as well as being easily spooked.

Just say, Its a darkroom!, I like black and white pictures. Don't bother elaborating and if someone does ask lots of questions, just lie. It's not against the law to lie!. And be noncommital if they ask to see inside, say...Yah I should show you inside sometime......Some OTHER time!

The only reason you would need zoning is if you started a business, and then the tax guys might come down on you, unlike the police they are efficient and ruthless and clever, if you start a business and don't declare some kind of a profit, they eventually WILL get around to riding you.

Just build a shed with a fume hood and a barrell of activated charcoal attatched to the outlet. You can make your own activated charcoal from the BBQ kind from the store and It works fine! Pot growers in B.C. use that trick to grow dope in apt buildings and it does the trick!

Finally,since you have a family, don't do anything illegal. 99% of chemistry is legal you know? They cannot arrest you for being a citzen scientist! If you really want to protect yourself from any possible trouble keep a lab notebook. That represents the PROOF of your innocence, just in case!

guaguanco - 18-1-2004 at 20:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Hermes_Trismegistus

Finally,since you have a family, don't do anything illegal. 99% of chemistry is legal you know? They cannot arrest you for being a citzen scientist! If you really want to protect yourself from any possible trouble keep a lab notebook. That represents the PROOF of your innocence, just in case!

I admire your optimism. Nowadays, I would expect the police, if they discovered someone in a clandestine lab full of chemicals and equipment, to swarm over it like hornets, haul away whoever was inside, and let things slowly sort themselves out. Better safe than sorry, you know.
Someone braver than I will have to try this. I *like* seeing my wife and little boy every night.

Safety?

Hermes_Trismegistus - 18-1-2004 at 21:26

More chemists are buried in smouldering peices than blasters.
More chemists are poisoned than toxic waste cleanup crews.
More chemists die on fire than fireman.

You want some measure of legal assurances, put a lawyer on retainer and tell him to make basic preparations.

If you desire freedom from danger or hazard; exemption from hurt, injury, or loss.

Put down your beakers. Take up fishing.

guaguanco - 18-1-2004 at 22:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Hermes_Trismegistus

You want some measure of legal assurances, put a lawyer on retainer and tell him to make basic preparations.

If you desire freedom from danger or hazard; exemption from hurt, injury, or loss.

Put down your beakers. Take up fishing.

Bravely spoken! Alas, as the sole breadwinner for my little family, I don't have that luxury.
I have other hobbies these days.

Saerynide - 19-1-2004 at 07:37

Quote:

Put down your beakers. Take up fishing.

I suppose you can always drown when you fish, or be eaten alive by piranas if youre fishing in the Amazon

But seriously, whats wrong with just working in the kitchen or garage if you live in a house?

Even if you live in a condo, cant you just work in the room with windows facing farthest away from the neighbors? That way, you can open your windows in that room and let any noxious gases escape. Place a fan blowing outwards by the window to dissapate gases faster.

But I guess if you live in a condo thats pretty much a linear rectangular block, and all the flats are lined side by side, then it might not work so good.

There's Something in my Sink!

hodges - 19-1-2004 at 14:30

Reaction of 1g of Fe/Al thermite in the kitchen sink at my apartment. Frame from camcorder capture.

Hodges

Saerynide - 20-1-2004 at 00:42

Did the sink survive?

hodges - 20-1-2004 at 03:44

Hodges

Saerynide - 20-1-2004 at 10:22

Wow, kitchen sinks are tough. Maybe ppl should build bomb shelters with them

Geomancer - 20-1-2004 at 10:42

Remember to plan for the unexpected. Make sure that your storeroom will not kill everyone in the building in the event of a fire/earthquake/etc. Put a label on the door to assist firefighters in determining how to dispose of the wreckage. Label containers.
Also, always remember that fumehoods aren't magic. Sucking perchloric acid through your dirty activated carbon filter may not be very well advised.

IgnorantlyIntelligent - 5-2-2004 at 10:04

Maybe slightly off topic, but where do those of you that live in the city test "energetic materials?"
I dreamt of setting off 1lbs of blasting gelatin in an alley one time. It made a crater that could fit a basket ball and blew cement all over from a near by cement block from a fence post. 6 car alarms went off and some lady screamed(kindy freaky)
Obviously I didnt get caught but I wont be doing that again! Now adays, even out in the desert there are too many people for anything larger than 2lbs of HE.
Where do you all do your tests?

Hodges, before you burn anymore thermite in your sink, you might wanna make sure the firealarm wont go off anywhere in the apartments.

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]

guaguanco - 5-2-2004 at 10:51

I don't know what deserts you visit, but the deserts I visit are deserted enough to blow up just about anything. (SE Oregon, E California)
All I ask: please clean up your debris as best you can. Too many people treat the outdoors like a trashcan nowadays.

CommonScientist - 9-2-2004 at 16:32

"Another option is venting it into the bathroom with the fan running, drawing the fumes out the top. This may smell up your bathroom, and make it unusable, but it's the better choice if you don't have a chimney. "

I dont think that would be a good idea - you would just fill up your attic with explosive vapours, then one spark sets it off then PRESTO - you dont have a roof, ceiling ect.

Where ?

MadHatter - 1-8-2004 at 12:49

Depends on what I'm doing. If it goes BOOM then it's in a patch of
woods far away from my residence. I've made KClO3 and KClO4 and
managed to vent the chlorine out of the apartment without problems
that might draw the attention of my neighbors. Hence, my research
for an anode that can be completely submerged to minimize the
loss of chlorine.

thalium - 7-11-2004 at 13:04

I concentrated H2SO4 on my balcony without drawing attention. I have mostly old people in the building and they usually stay watching TV and the building on the other side is almost in the same situation: old people or people that are mostly at work

Zinc - 13-2-2007 at 12:14

I live in a house so I have no problems with conducting experiments. All my neighbours and friends know what I am doing (including pyrotehnics) and nobody has anything against that.

quicksilver - 14-2-2007 at 06:28

In so far as energetic materials; one of the best things to find is an old well. The majority of sound moves directly up, is taken by considerable volume of the well hole itself, and is muted by the considerable distance it must tarvel. aside that it is quite safe. The material is lowered by string or dropped w/ fuse, etc. It is astounding how much sound can be muted by a well. If one is close by there is a "whump" but if the listener is any more than 30 yds away there is a bearly audable sound. The issue of retrieving the material or object casing can also be overcome by simple use of cable, etc.

YT2095 - 14-2-2007 at 08:56

I also am a 40 year old Family man with a lovely wife and baby daughter (20 months old today), I have no problem doing experiments in my Lab, it`s an Annex to the house the door In/Out leads directly into the house.

the difference being is that I don`t do anything in way of Dangerous projects and the ones I May do are always in milligram quantities or less (I`de have absolutely no use for as much as single blasting cap even) it doesn`t interest me.
larger scale things that can be dangerous in way of gasses etc, I set up scrubbers, it can take me an entire morning to set up the glassware alone for even simple things like making Ammonia soln, but I see all that as just "part of the fun".

Mega dangerous such as Hydrazine or Cyanides are done outside and again in Very Tiny amounts, I guess I`m a bit of a "Chicken" really

any Pyro stuff I write down and make a few days before an event so I can use with impunity, events like Nov 5`th or New Years.

I highly recommend the purchase of extra glassware and tubing and construct simple scrubbers, long term they`re worth their weight in Gold

AND the scrubber soln can be used to make further chems to your stock also, so it`s not like it`s even getting wasted, IE/ I used dilute HCl as a scrubber for Ammonia soln this morning, this will make some good ammonium chloride when evaporated and I didn`t stink the house out

Just a thought.

[Edited on 14-2-2007 by YT2095]

woelen - 14-2-2007 at 11:16

I also have a family and my age is 41 at the moment of writing this, and I do my experiments inside the house. I made a small room, where I do my experiments, and nowhere else in my house there are chems (other than the usual cleaning stuff).

I do microscale experiments and mostly aqueous inorganic chemistry and very small-scale energetics experiments. Sometimes, when gases like Cl2 and so on are produced in somewhat larger quantities I do experiments in the backyard, but only isolated things, such a single beaker or test tube. I do not have the room for setting up larger apparatus, but in the near future, I hope to make a larger room, such that I have a little more space.

But the most important thing is, do small-scale experimenting, frequently this is as informative as larger scale experiments.

quicksilver - 16-2-2007 at 07:00

This has been an interesting thread. I think that if I lived in a city however and had small children (mine are grown) I would most likely rethink my hobbiest activities. -I hear the "paranoia perspective" of nosy neighbors, etc and personally I wouldn't do any clandestine lab affair other than perhaps a "dark-room" in a garage. As a matter of fact I couldn't imagine -=enjoying=- hobbiest rocket or pyro stuff without living way out in a rural area. If one is responsible (and most of the people who have posted seem that way) and are adults (most over 40) the idea of exposing anyone to any possible hearm or the community to any risk is to be avoided at all costs....so really the only way to even consider this in a city is deal with it on a "seriously micro level". But what would that entail? My initial thinking is that if it can't be don't in the kitchen sink, it should be avoided.
However having had children ; I am ever watchful of poisons (metals, etc) in the home and a lab is full of just those things one does NOT want one's children being exposed to....it's a tough and personal call. I think if my kid was still in the house I would read more than experiment (which is actually what I do by default).

woelen - 16-2-2007 at 07:36

Quicksilver, I agree with you as far as pyrotechnics is concerned. This simply cannot be done safely inside a house.
However, general experimenting (e.g. in aqueous solutions) can be done safely, provided
1) The experiments are done in a separate room and no chems are spread throughout the house. One has to be careful for low-level but long-term exposure in the house, hence the strict separation from other rooms.
2) Kids (and pets) are not allowed access to the lab, and the lab is closed with a lock when you are not present in the lab.

I have two kids of 8 and 10 years old, and especially the younger one really likes the experimenting. She really knows that the lab is not for her, when she is alone, but I sometimes let her watch nice experiments (e.g. changing colors in solution, or nice flashes with oxidizer/reductor mixes, done outside).

gregxy - 23-2-2007 at 13:51

If you use common sense, courtesy and small quantities you are not likely to get in trouble.

When I was a kid I used to make M80s and set them off in
the yard all the time (in a normal residential neighborhood)
the neighbors knew that I did it but did not call the police
because they knew I was a nice kid. As long as I did it on my
property and did not make too much noise calling the police doesn't serve any purpose. Most people like to avoid trouble.

Even though the police could arrest you for having certain
chemicals, as long as they are in small amounts & not a
safety hazzard they are most likely to leave you alone or tell
you to get rid of the stuff. Sending a hobbiest to jail does
not help anyone and most law enforcement people probably
have enough experience judging character to tell a hobbiest
from a terrorist or drug maker.

quicksilver - 26-2-2007 at 13:06

There is a whole question of simple experimentation such as crystal growing, purification of and/or making reagents vs noise/fire/smoke. Were I to view this question in the context of the former I can't see any issue with using a separate room, etc. most anywhere. But neighbors are human beings and a sudden noise is upsetting to most folks. I personally wouldn't want loud noise jostling me at odd hours. I think the most important factor is empathy toward another's living space.

16MillionEyes - 23-3-2007 at 18:39

Living in an apartment myself (and in a city) this has proven to be extremly difficult. Tons of things that I would love to do are closed shut right in front of my face.
Being a chemistry major and all I just feel like fish out of water. I really have not been able to solve this problem so I've resigned myself to my kitchen. It's truly a shame.

obsessed_chemist - 27-3-2007 at 15:21

Setting up a series of scrubbers can be tricky and a hassle, but it's your only opition if you're going to be working with noxious/flammable gases and solvents.

tito-o-mac - 12-7-2007 at 03:25

Do it in plain field, forest or simply a lab!

YT2095 - 12-7-2007 at 06:16

Quote:

Originally posted by tito-o-mac
Do it in plain field, forest or simply a lab!

that`s not at all useful is it!

if they Had a Lab then this question wouldn`t be asked in the first place, and secondly in a "forest or field" is so exceptionally impractical for the most part that it introduces an entirely New set of dangers and hazards in itself.

it`s not a very well thought out answer is it.

jarynth - 3-9-2008 at 16:13

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
2) Kids (and pets) are not allowed access to the lab, and the lab is closed with a lock when you are not present in the lab.

I have two kids of 8 and 10 years old, and especially the younger one really likes the experimenting. She really knows that the lab is not for her, when she is alone, but I sometimes let her watch nice experiments (e.g. changing colors in solution, or nice flashes with oxidizer/reductor mixes, done outside).

Dear woelen, I always read your posts with interest and appreciate your rigor. You seem to conduct serious and safe experiments and your cool site proves it. So I would hate for this to sound like a personal attack; it is merely an obsevation.

I understand your obvious concern with the safety of the ones you love. While you seem to approve of your daughter's interest for what you do in the attic, I would expect more of you than just letting her watch nice color transitions (the underlying chemistry is undoubtedly non-trivial, but the visual appeal and entertainment level is close to the coke + menthos experiment). I would love to see you teach her chemistry hands on, hiring her as your "assistant", and even letting her work by herself under your supervision (be it only with harmless chemicals, with tons of protective gear, etc).

I don't need to discuss the didactical and inspirational value of such experience. Some of us already started experimenting with home chemisty at that age, if not earlier. I recall how sad I was when I didn't get the big chemistry set because the box read '14+ years', and I had to stick with the plain jane starter kit for a while. Don't you remember how frustrating it was whenever a store asked for proof of age?

Young chemists are frowned upon, while adults don't set off the radar quite so often, but with their accumulated knowledge and disillusionment they're arguably more dangerous than the kids. The controls happen for a reason, but as pointed out extensively in this section, in practice the rule is highly subjective.

I say don't choke her curiosity. When do you expect her to be ready for indipendent experimenting? At 18, when she's already overwhelmed with heart matters, the end of high school and the start of college? It might be too late, and you will be regretting not having "passed on" your passion.

Why do we complain when chemical retailers record, restrict or ban sales to (even ***adult***) individuals? I find all complaints about the 'nanny state' a hypocritical symptom of a double standard.

[Edited on 3-9-2008 by jarynth]

MagicJigPipe - 4-9-2008 at 07:57

Quote:

Why do we complain when chemical retailers record, restrict or ban sales to (even ***adult***) individuals? I find all complaints about the 'nanny state' a hypocritical symptom of a double standard.

Are you serious? You like the idea of the government telling you what you can and can't do? You like living in a "nanny state"? Do you think that all even slightly hazardous chemicals should be banned or restricted? Do you not like privacy?

Also, please explain your last sentence. I don't understand what you mean. What is this double standard and why am I a hypocrite because I don't like the idea of a "nanny state"?

And if you truly have these beliefs, tell us why, please. Tell us a little about yourself. What led you to begin thinking this way?

[Edited on 9-4-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

jarynth - 4-9-2008 at 09:11

There appears to be some misunderstanding. I'm highligting the hypocrisy of a double standard. I don't see how you can (based on this alone) infer my position as being either on the 'safety' side or on the 'freedom' side.

My last sentence must not be taken out of context. The double standard I'm talking about is easily illustrated: we forbid our kids to play with chemicals, yet we cringe when the nanny state does the same with us. It shows how the governmental paternalism stems from an innate individual impulse. But if we decide (and we do) to fight the administrative regulations, for consistency's sake we must fight all forms of paternalism. We must condone, and possibly even encourage, indipendent expermentation.

To put it simply, it was ok for us to take apart firecrackers, yet we find it unacceptable if our own kids do it? Are we blaming our moms and dads with bad parenting because we got away with it?

Quote:

What is this double standard and why am I a hypocrite because I don't like the idea of a "nanny state"?

You don't like that idea, and that's fine. What makes you a hypocrite is when you nonetheless play 'nanny state' with your kids (or the fellow citizen, by and large).

[Edited on 4-9-2008 by jarynth]

Magpie - 4-9-2008 at 09:48

This is an interesting question and I think jarynth has a valid point about a degree of hypocrisy.

When I was a child growing up in the 40's and 50's it seems like my parents were much less involved in my extra-curricular activities. My mother wanted me to take up tap dancing like other little kids. But I hated this and I was never so glad as when she said that I didn't have to go to those awful lessons anymore. So after school my friends and I were on our own until dinner time. Yes, we built rockets, played with gun powder, and made burning stink bombs. And boy did we have fun with firecrackers! My parents bought a chemistry set for me when I was 13 or 14. There was little or no supervision and there was a lot that went on that I'm glad they never found out about.

Now, when we raised our boys they were involved in cub scouts and as many sporting activities as we could get them to take, and my wife was a hands on supervisor. But they still had sword fights, made match guns, and later told me that they had done "a lot of shit" that it's better I never found out about.

So, yes, we were much more nannys than our parents, and yes, I do hate the nanny state.

woelen - 4-9-2008 at 12:04

Quote:

I understand your obvious concern with the safety of the ones you love. While you seem to approve of your daughter's interest for what you do in the attic, I would expect more of you than just letting her watch nice color transitions (the underlying chemistry is undoubtedly non-trivial, but the visual appeal and entertainment level is close to the coke + menthos experiment). I would love to see you teach her chemistry hands on, hiring her as your "assistant", and even letting her work by herself under your supervision (be it only with harmless chemicals, with tons of protective gear, etc).

You probably didn't read my posts over here about the chemistry party I have given for both bitrthday parties of my youngest and eldest daughter. In those parties they were allowed to do experiments themselves (with NaHCO3 + dilute acetic acid, ferric chloride + K4Fe(CN)6, pH - indicators and some acids + bases), and not only two kids, but 10 kids per party, each working in groups of 2 or 3. These parties were very good and the parents of those kids also liked these parties very much.

To our eldest daughter I try to explain what happens in the chemical reactions. I explain that atoms are rearranged and that there only are a few tens of kinds of atoms, but that by combining them a bazillion different compounds can be formed. I even explained to her the concept op isomers, with CH3CH2OH and CH3-O-CH3 as examples. But not all of these things I write on sciencemadness. This might be a good idea for a thread though. People with children, what do they do with their kids?

chloric1 - 4-9-2008 at 14:45

Its hard with a 3 year old. I mean I really can only have her watch. I let her put magnesium strip in the thermite or sometimes I let her drop the stir bar into the beaker if nothing caustic could possibly splash. Otherwise, she is now just a spectator. Obviously, she does not yet understand the science yet but I am just trying to get her to have the visual experience. Later I will have her participate in setup and when she gets some math skills I will have her make calculations.

I figure if I tell her just the very basics right now that I can build an interest in science in general. I can't wait until she is in school so I can by the little homeschooling kits and maybe creating my own!