Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Micro vessels for coral production/allelopathic studies

brandon - 21-12-2009 at 08:27

Hello all, I like to travel around the boards discussing the chemistry and biology associated with extreme captive reef systems.

Most of the innovation regarding aquarium husbandry comes from changes in technology, better bells and whistles... these systems were built and designed long ahead of the technology curve and what they do is basically allow anyone to grow 80% of the common species of maricultured corals that usually command high powered systems to maintain. Im sure many of you know about the intricacies of saltwater tank and reef care, ever seen a palmtop SPS reef before or one in a vase that can be driven around to colleges and schools?

This brings marine biology studies to the home, school and masses due to simplicity of design so that's while I feel it's valid in a science forum to review the ethics of such small systems, the ways they become aged and why they run so stable compared to larger systems where the average owner spends a lifetime of tweaking variables and trying to prevent crashes. Simple is as simple does, nice to meet you all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOsitYhihc

some pics:
http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27380

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27374

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27391

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27392

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27379

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=31928

UnintentionalChaos - 21-12-2009 at 11:44

Do you just go around spamming various science forums with this stuff? http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45491&am...

yes to posting, no to spamming

brandon - 21-12-2009 at 12:53

Actually I post on hundreds of boards and when I can find someone more interested in marine biology than simple/obvious detective work the discussions usually turn beneficial...do you have anything to add to the topic?

Doesn't matter how many boards I frequent, it matters if I know what Im talking, am an early inventor for this kind of work and am willing to hang around and discuss it as fast as your fingers can type. That makes it not spam...I am trying to generate legit discussion around the topic. I could post up a thread that's a ten pager if it would help, but Id really like to see what can be found that's a new observation from this group.

so, even though you can see I like discussing things with scientists you will also see that there is someone new to have a helpful discussion about micro marine care in these boards I frequent.

If you don't like the science, fine. if you think it's not right to keep animals in such a small container thats fine too, but the number of boards I visit is irrelevant there are hundreds of great pages written about these and many others are able to hone their successes with other tanks based on common input.

Do you at least keep marine tanks man? That's be cool if you did. When was the first pico reef you saw? just curious

--

brandon - 21-12-2009 at 12:56

and lastly, bub, not all science forums are daily active. Sometimes a new thread can liven things up, and sometimes the forum is a little slower like the one you listed. The only way to know is to try, and since I spend time supporting the boards I frequent with helpful marine science that makes this video rather valid no matter how many boards it arises on. Sometimes I just follow the links where others have posted this video and join in the discussion, how it gets started really only matters to the extremely cynical lol

come on man wheres the warm welcome for a fellow reef aquarist :)

mostly I am told "thanks for posting" so the overly positive nature of the video makes me enjoy bringing it to other forums for those who may not see it elsewhere. Again, staying around to chat means Im a busy poster, not a spammer. Not selling anything, just showing new (old) stuff to the vast majority who have not seen it other than the rounds I make on the web.

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by brandon]

12AX7 - 22-12-2009 at 02:10

Quote: Originally posted by brandon  

come on man wheres the warm welcome for a fellow reef aquarist :)


You've come to an active forum, but sad to say not the friendliest.

I must say though, you've got some neat aquariums. Real ocean stuff growing is pretty crazy. Say, does coral grow like a tree, is there any danger of it forcing its way through the glass?

I don't know or care much about aquariums, but I do know a guy (on an electronics forum, of all places) who's into the same thing. The last one he told us about was about a gallon, holding lots of requisite gravel and plants and such, and I think just three fish. Maybe he'd try coral after seeing yours?

Tim

hi

brandon - 22-12-2009 at 09:12

Tim that's cool of you man. I get some kickback from time to time, smart people attack snake oil salesmen I like that its a great bs filter. im still here to hang out if anyone enjoys discussing biology, couldn't find a better part of the forum to put the discussion in...

The corals take years to grow as much...but when they do, they will actually curve and conform to the glass rather than press on it. This is so amazing to me...coral morphologies have been supposedly 'set' by their locus and water currents relative to an area for a given genus. I think it's neat to watch what life will do when it has to evolve in an 8 inch sphere, not to mention the technical features such a vessel must control to get that growth normally restricted to thousand dollar tanks...thanks for checking out the vid and it's possible in time fellow marine aquarists, or home experimenters may see the thread and find or generate some new ideas off what's posted. Thanks man
B

ChrisWhewell - 23-12-2009 at 03:27

Quote: Originally posted by brandon  
Hello all, I like to travel around the boards discussing the chemistry and biology associated with extreme captive reef systems.

Most of the innovation regarding aquarium husbandry comes from changes in technology, better bells and whistles... these systems were built and designed long ahead of the technology curve and what they do is basically allow anyone to grow 80% of the common species of maricultured corals that usually command high powered systems to maintain. Im sure many of you know about the intricacies of saltwater tank and reef care, ever seen a palmtop SPS reef before or one in a vase that can be driven around to colleges and schools?

This brings marine biology studies to the home, school and masses due to simplicity of design so that's while I feel it's valid in a science forum to review the ethics of such small systems, the ways they become aged and why they run so stable compared to larger systems where the average owner spends a lifetime of tweaking variables and trying to prevent crashes. Simple is as simple does, nice to meet you all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOsitYhihc

some pics:
http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27380

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27374

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27391

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27392

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27379

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=31928



That, is beautiful.

Are you saying that you have a unique ability, by virtue of your system, to grow these whereas others don't have the same capabilities as you ?




Nicodem - 23-12-2009 at 04:04

Beautiful aquariums and fantastic corals!
That sure takes a lot of time and effort.

When I was young and had a more sedentary life living with my parents (before living in student dorms or rented apartments) I was quite obsessed by maintaining an aquarium or two. It is a very nice hobby - not as nice as chemistry though. ;) Though at least it is relaxing, while chemistry is frustrating. :( Maybe now that I'm sedentary again, I will get me an aquarium again (but not a marine one - that is too much work).

Part of my teenage phallic obsessions with power, besides experimenting with energetic materials was also the idea of creating a hermetically closed ecosystem powered solely by light. Especially I was hoping to create a very small ecosystem, composed, for example, by aquarium snails, plants and tiny crustaceans and similar small animal/plant/algae/microbial life with the flora producing oxygen and food, the fauna consuming it and the microbes mineralizing the organic waste. The thing did work well for maybe half a year but then the snails stopped reproducing until extinct and the rest of the organism also slowly died out. I was wandering if you know if it is possible to prepare such a closed small ecosystem that would work for years powered only by light?

brandon - 23-12-2009 at 07:04

Hi Nic and Chris.

No I have no virtuous ability except for driving ladies out of my home by taking up their space with music instruments. lots of people keep micro reefs, now that all the kinks have been worked out >


What I mean specifically is these are the first long term sub gallon pico reefs grown and documented to maturity so it was and still is a rather unique way of growing coral. I mean export from the bowl, not tentative stagnant growth where corals are replaced (environmentally irresponsible)/. this is just a small scale, but models are helpful across sciences.


many others have set up vases too, you can even see them on youtube now. Im saying it very well may be the big deal trend in reefkeeping, to go micro small, as it mitigates a lot of the problems associated with current reefkeeping methods, namely exclusivity in price and technical procedures. I can certainly tell you this, the words "pico" were not found in retail sales goods until after 2002 for sw tanks, this area of the hobby is well noted by those out to make a buck, but who can blame them, I use their pumps and heaters lol

of all the years Ive spent promoting them/spamming it's amazing to me that:
1. the systems are still working which reflects on the KISS model
2. there are always new people to show these ideas and they in turn generate new ideas that I modify into new systems.



regarding the closed ecosystems have you seen the commercially produced ecospheres? I first saw one in about '98, for about 400 bucks you can get a dead gorgonian, some hawaiian red oculina shrimp and a few strands of algae. There are documented reports of these living up to 5+ years with the same shrimp, no proteinic import just really sealed. This is the marine tank version, no one is doing a freshwater version yet.

I have tried to replicate nearly that exact system you've described with the vases, and Im sure that for coral systems you must have protein input regularly it can't be perm sealed. there aren't enough stores for protein (and the inherent nitrogen, phos, carbon, S, etc that recirculate among various organic matrices in a captive reef).

You can definately bind up wastes and protein derivatives in a reef, but generation must come from the caretaker in systems of this size. I don't think it's impossible but I can't find a way to run higher organisms without a little weekly care. check out the ecospheres though, still the only truly sealed ecosystem out there as barren as it may be...

its intersting to consider the tracing of carbon atoms through the various systems> the gaseous/dissolved forms just to pick one:

In the vase or the half gallon reef, they are very sensitive to atmospheric/respirative CO2 because of the pH lowering effects when dissolved as carbonic acid. Really sensitive.

So for the vase all one has to do is keep a moderately refreshed room, having an abnormal amount of scrubbing potted plants doesn't hurt, and the vase will bubble out the CO2 on its own due to constant refreshment throughout the bowl and fine currents that travel the bowl.

Interestingly, pH can register high even though the alkalinity levels may be low having been bound via calcification, acids produced in detritus reduction and protein breakdown within the system... so to keep coral skeletons dense, early testing revealed a simple morning dosing system that will balance the total ion management for the system

In the sealed palmtop reef, the internal refugium binds up carbon dioxide that has found its way into solution via respiration directly into plant matrix (chaetomorpha algae). This prevents pH issues in the closed marine system I can see. There is also oxygen liberation, and biogenic decalcification where minute amounts of carbonate are split to gain access to carbon by the plant, and this too yields pH support from what Im told by other chemists. I find all this mind boggling in just a tiny tank.

the process is reversed for the planted bog, its uncirculated to purposely concentrate precious CO that the plants need. The fish in the system are the primary respirators, but I would estimate the invertebrate load of the tank is even better. The microbial community certainly very well could win out in terms of collective CO2 emission. And, the more CO@ in solution the lower the pH whereas these plants prefer acid over alkaline water and they will directly take the CO2 as the primary photosynthesis driver. Since the bog is also not ever cleaned, it's a total captive recycler of nitrogen as well and you all can imagine the wheels that turn on N's bus...

So the point of all that was, if anyone wanted to set one of these up I have already cleared the headache for you, its no harder than running a freshwater tank but you do need basic marine water preparation skills on any sw tank. again, easy for a novice to garner off a one page writeup. these reefs are the simplest reef tanks in the world and the science to get there is why I pop up yapping in these forums commonly, just fun.
b

Im no chemist but those of you that are can appreciate a little acid management for the small marine environ through arrangement of living organisms...your forum turned out to be active, among the best of the science forums I've been on mostly we just hang with aquarists...here's a few more pics to show alternate, and very differently designed ecosystems and palmtops, all utilizing the major elements in simple ways:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by brandon]