Sciencemadness Discussion Board - I have found PbO2 for sale

I have found PbO2 for sale

patsroom - 6-11-2009 at 17:11

Hello to everyone, I was invited by one of your members to this site as I have some (hopefully) some exciting news. I found a company that will sell to me Lead Dixoide Anodes at a size that will be useable in the home lab. If all goes well with this deal I am making I could get them out to the those how are interested in having one. But I do need to know if there is a strong interest in abtaining them from those that are willing to buy one.
The following I place on another web site as to try and get a response.
I have been in talks with a company that is welling to sale me Lead Dixoide Anodes. The New Price that they well be to buy one is $135.00 USD plus shipping and handling for type A anode and for type B the asking price is $105.00 USD plus shipping and handling. I would still have to buy a minium of 20 of them at a time. This is for the first order as they wish for the samples to be seen. I do not known if they would increase the price after but I would think not (I hope not).
I need the help of all of the members here to see what you think about this, please reply good or bad so I can decide if I should buy 20 or more.
My feeling is that the price is now so much better (than the price for Pt. coated Ti. at $80.00 to $90.00 for a .5" x 4" with a 3" hanging strap). And theses lead dixoide anodes well do everything that we could want from chlorides to pre-chlorates of the salts.
I know that there is a thread within this forum that deals in the sale of pyro items, but as you can see this is not items for sale at this time. This is a request for replies to see if this is a deal that everybody would be interested in. Like I said earlier I just think that this is a great buy and the price is now so much better than their first go around.
There is not much more I can add with out Beating a Dead Horse on this one. Just one more kick at the horse I just can't help it- This would be a great deal I know it would be.
This was my first offer recieved, But I found the price way to high. Then I got the next offer and felt that it was a price I could work with. I hope to get a PDF in here as well to shown the size.
XXXXXXXX-XXXXXXXX-XXXXXXX
Titanium Products and Equipment Manufacturing Co.,Ltd Price list

Date of offer: October 24, 2009

Item :Lead dioxide coated Titanium Anode

Client name: Patrick

Email:

Address:
Item 1

Type A anode

Cost of material

36USD/piece

Cost of coating

152USD/piece

Unit price

36USD+152USD=188USD/piece

Quantity

20pcs

Total value

188USDX20=3,760USD

Item 2

Type B anode

Cost of material

28USD/piece

Cost of coating

131USD/piece

Unit price

28USD+131USD=159USD/piece

Quantity

20pcs

Total value

159USDX20=3,180USD

Remarks:

Quotation mode

CIF Oregon (Door to door)

Validity of offer

Within 20 days

Minimum of order

20pcs for each item

Coating contents

Lead dioxide(PbO2)

Thickness of PbO2

1.5mm

Lifespan of anode

=2.5 years

Delivery time

Within 3 weeks against Copy of Remittance

Packing

Export Standard Wooden case

Terms of payment

By T/T, 100% payment in advance against Proforma Invoice

XXXXXX-XXXXXXX-XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX Products and Equipment

Manufacturing Co.,Ltd

Contact person: (Sales Manager)

Tel: 0086+512+6665 XXXX

Fax:0086+512+6536 XXXX

Mobile:0086+151 9568-XXXX(24hour)

Web:

www

Mail

Sorry about blank out the contact infor. I just don't want to sour the cream.

So the price will be $135.00 USD plus shipping and Handling to your door for the large one and $105.00 USD plus shipping and handling for the smaller one. I would love to hear what others are thinking.
I Than all of you if you manage to read this far and I hope to hear from those how would like me to finish the deal........Pat

Attachment: Drawing PDF Anode.pdf (11kB)
This file has been downloaded 696 times

hissingnoise - 7-11-2009 at 08:37

Mindblowing attachment, Pat. . .
And certainly one I'll keep going back to!
Incidentally, would the company be Indian---TITAN, perhaps?
[Edited on 7-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

[Edited on 7-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

hissingnoise - 7-11-2009 at 10:17

Just found this. . .http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/234895543/lead_dioxide_anode.html

hissingnoise - 8-11-2009 at 02:06

Quote: Originally posted by patsroom

Item :Lead dioxide coated Titanium Anode.

Seriously Pat, can you post pictures of the anode?
A general shot and a colour close-up of the surface texture. . .

patsroom - 8-11-2009 at 15:45

hissingnoise,
The best I can do for now is the PDF drawing. But I agree that a picture is well worth a thousand words. The drawing is what I sent to the company and got a reply back saying that they can do. The thickness of the anode coating is to be about 1.5 thick in metric so the out come will be larger that 1/8"(It would be about 1/16") inch which I hope mean total thickness being over a 1/4" (I think,wrong more like about 1/8"). Just a soon as I recieve some I will post pictures. But it must be known that I need positive in put from all to know if I should even order them.
My funds are real tight and I must know that I do not have to carry the full burden of cost once I get them in hand. So if I know that there are those willing to buy them it will help me to decide on the numbers to order. So please everyone put in your support and let me know if I should or should not continue with this deal.

[Edited on 9-11-2009 by patsroom]

patsroom - 8-11-2009 at 15:52

I forgot to mention that right now if I was to order because of my lacking the needed funds I well most likely order the smaller one at 105.00 cost. But these will be twice as big as the .5" wide Pt. Ti that sale 79.00 to 89.00 USD that I seen and a lot thicker meat on the bone too, sort of to speak. Thanks for reading this

hissingnoise - 9-11-2009 at 03:57

Quote: Originally posted by patsroom

The thickness of the anode coating is to be about 1.5 thick in metric so the out come will be larger that 1/8"

1.5mm is about 1/16" which is fine in an industrial stack but the hobbyist won't have the fine tuning needed to get anything like the 2.5 years anode-life mentioned. . .
4mm should be better able to stand up to the voltage and current fluctuations (not to mention inexpert handling) of back-yard electrolysis!

patsroom - 9-11-2009 at 09:41

I thank you so much for correcting the thickness as I have a hard time with metrics. Pat

hissingnoise - 9-11-2009 at 13:06

Quote: Originally posted by patsroom

I have a hard time with metrics.

I see!
Not 'sell', then?

dann2 - 10-11-2009 at 11:53

Hello

The coating is a bit too thin at 1.5mm.
Would be good to purchase one of these and test in a Chloride to Perchlorate cell (no pH controll) and see how many months it would last. I do not think it would last for 2.5 years.
I'll be letting someone else do the purchasing.

Dann2

hissingnoise - 10-11-2009 at 15:24

Pat, some of us here would consider selling family members for for a good dependable DSA (GSLD) and no one wants to fuck around with Pb in solution as recent data suggests that Pb is much more insidious than previously thought, so can you talk to your contacts about custom plating. . .
NaClO4 is expensive, and going up, and an L/D anode good for, say, 5000hrs intermittent use would sure get my full attention !

[Edited on 10-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

patsroom - 10-11-2009 at 18:35

I see some real discussion here in regards to the anodes. As for the thickness if anyone ever read Swedes requirements to the thickness he feel was a good place to be then maybe your confidence would increase. The price break I recieved was as good to get as any, but my funds are real tight and this will hurt me quite a bit.
I can not get just one but must order 20 at a time minimum, that means it cuts into my families' living expenses by over 2/3. I do not wish to harm anyone. So someone other than myself well have to test these. I would feel if it was someone's else doing the dealing and he wa to say " Hey these anodes are great and evervbody needs to buy one" I would not feel safe in buying one from the Fox in the hen house that was doing the counting. So there we are someone will have to be independent and test one for the rest of us. I am looking a putting out over a $1000.00 USD for this and I have placed my trust in the company who has been producing them at a hugh size for other companies.
I showed the first bid I recieved and the thickness in size with what was said to last 2.5 years.
Now if we think as a company thinks: 2.5 yrs. x 365 days + 912.5 days. If we now take the 912.5 days x 24 hrs we now + 21,900 hrs. even if we were to say 8 hrs. a day for 912.5 days that would equal out to 7300 hrs.
Boy, that is a lot of hours either way we want to look at it. So now we have to worry about max. Amps that it can take and what would be the best operating Amps we could use and this will have a lot to do with the life of the anode. These are important questions to be asked as well. I am will to trust the company as it would do them no good not to produce a good product to sale as they are hoping that there will be more sales down the road. This place has the personal to make these as well as the chemicals. This in it's self make this a good buy if they are even half as capable to preform. This is would all so require someone that is trusted in the pyro community to do a test outside of my control. Until we have outside input from someone else other than me about the quality. The only claims I can make will be what I am told by the company and you can see what they have said so far by looking the dealing that I posted.
By this coming Monday I should know if I well be placing an order or id I must do some more leg works.......... If you have read all of this I thank you for your time and I hope this helps in understanding what is going on right now..Pat

dann2 - 11-11-2009 at 06:23

Hello Pat,

Mention the Anode over in REC.PYRO.

http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.pyrotechnics/topics?hl=en

You could also ask someone to mention it on the pyrotechnics mailing list (don't know much about it myself) or join the list. (Google for it)

Also WWW.APCFORUMS.COM

The Lead Dioxide thickness on Graphite Substrate Anode that were used for commercial production of Perchlorate (from Chloride--->Chlorate--->Perchlorate) was approx. 4 to 5 mm thick.
An Anode I made had LD thickness on the bottom of it of 0.9mm. This lasted close to 2 months before the Ti started to show. (I will look up the details). Anode was used to make Perk. from Chloride with no pH controll in the cell. The LD higher up the Anode (was thicker) is still there and will last some more time no doubt.

Swede did not actually start to use his LD on MMO Anode. It may have been ran for a short time just as a preliminary test.

forgot to mention I sold all my family members a long time ago for Gouging rods!

Dann2

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by dann2]

hissingnoise - 11-11-2009 at 06:38

I'd decompose Pb(NO3)2 if I really needed to make liquid NO2, but plating-baths are out!
A few days ago a news-item (BBC or Ch4(uk)) reported findings suggesting that low levels of lead can cause partial amnesia in some people---plumbers and stained-glass workers, etc!
Later I couldn't find a link on either site, but I didn't imagine it. . .

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

dann2 - 11-11-2009 at 10:12

Hello,

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

A few days ago a news-item (BBC or Ch4(uk)) reported findings suggesting that low levels of lead can cause partial amnesia in some people---plumbers and stained-glass workers, etc!
Later I couldn't find a link on either site, but I didn't imagine it. . .

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

Have you been doing your own plumbing and stained glass decor? Me thinks yes and you have forgotton the link (and location)

Whoever cannot operate a Lead Nitrate plating tank without contaminating themselves, others or their surroundings, should not be going anywhere near Chlorate/Perchlorate/pyro stuff as they would also be incapable of dealing with that field of endeavor.
(Lead) plating baths are out, me arse.

@Pat
You could ask the Anode makers how much for Anodes with (say) 4mm thick coating. It will take little extra expence for them to make IMO. Just some extra Lead Compounds and plating time.
I am not interested in purchasing any Anode's.

Dann2

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by dann2]

patsroom - 11-11-2009 at 11:04

Hello Dann2
Thanks for the leads to the other places I will be checking them out.
I find it most interesting about your experience with the lead dixoide anodes and would like to here more about it. By chance did you write up a blog or web page about it as I would enjoy reading your work.
About you trading family members for Gouging Rods did you get a good deal for them?

dann2 - 11-11-2009 at 11:51

Hello Pat,

APCFORUMS appears to be down (or have I the correct address?). Perhaps Swede or Tentacles can inform us.

There is lots (and lots and lots) of reading in the thread 'More on PbO2 Anodes' in this section of SCI.MAD. It's a bit verbose and drawn out at time but that's no fault of mine you know (naturally enough (wink)).

Also a page here depicting some of my Anode adventures

http://www.oxidizing.110mb.com/chlorate/leaddiox/tiatold.htm...

I have to get back to finishing the write-up (I have just realized).
An (the only Ti substrate LD Anode I have made) Anode I made lasted for 10 weeks before the Ti substrate started to show. This happened at the bottom of the Anode where the LD was only 0.9mm thick (as said above). Details on page.
The Anode is still workable though. Must dunk it into a cell some time soon and see how long more it lasts.
The Ti substrate is the way to go. It works well and more importantly if a fault (or wear) occurs in the Anode you will not get sudden failure. The rest of the Anode will go on working untill the whole thing is well and truly worn out. (not like Graphite substrate what will fail abruptly at the first small fault that may occur in the LD plating.
Massive Anodes are a good alternative but will be inclined to break (the reinforcing in them seems to cure that problem though) and it is relatively difficult to get a good long term, stable, electrical connection to them. They are also not very beautyful to behold. Crooked as the (proverbial) hind leg of a goat.

Dann2

Dann2

hissingnoise - 11-11-2009 at 11:56

Quote: Originally posted by dann2

Hello,
Have you been doing your own plumbing and stained glass decor? Me thinks yes and you have forgotton the link (and location) ;
Whoever cannot operate a Lead Nitrate plating tank without contaminating themselves, others or their surroundings, should not be going anywhere near Chlorate/Perchlorate/pyro stuff as they would also be incapable of dealing with that field of endeavor.

Hello! Hello, Nah---dann2, the only lead I like handling is AH milling media and the only lead I like melting is flux-cored!
As for chlorates, I was fucking around with them when you really were dann2. . . dann in two places (warm, moist and visceral) at the same time!
I just might though, by now have forgotten more about chlorates than you'll ever learn. . .
[edit] Gee dann2, was that quote really neccessary?

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

dann2 - 11-11-2009 at 12:20

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

Hello! Hello, Nah---dann2, the only lead I like handling is AH milling media and the only lead I like melting is flux-cored!
As for chlorates, I was fucking around with them when you really were dann2. . . dann in two places (warm, moist and viceral) at the same time!
I just might though, by now have forgotten more about chlorates than you'll ever learn. . .

Good to see you back to your old self!

Tooling up, buckets of projects, buckets of knowledge (both remembered and (may have) forgotton, etc etc etc etc ect etc.

And I STILL done believe any of it.

Say heeeeehaaaaaa to deja vu (and hope we do not upset all the listening Gentlemen as we reck each others hair and break our nice manicured finger nails.)

Dann2

ps Any chance of a Diva break

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by dann2]

hissingnoise - 11-11-2009 at 12:37

Well---I am heading for sixtytwo (62), dann(2)you old swaddling tyro-pyro you. . .

hissingnoise - 11-11-2009 at 12:55

Actually dann2, on mature reflection I see I've been going a bit over the top---please disregard all the above. . .

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

hissingnoise - 11-11-2009 at 14:39

Quote: Originally posted by dann2

(Lead) plating baths are out, me arse.

This isn't the report I referred to earlier but it is worth checking before blithely forging ahead. . .

http://www.scitopics.com/Lead_toxicity_and_chelation_treatme...

JohnWW - 11-11-2009 at 18:00

As well as Pb, chelation treatment can also be used for poisoning by other heavy metals such as Hg, Cd, Sb, Bi, Tl, Ni. However, the ligands used may affect metabolism of transition metals which are essential trace elements, especially Fe, and also in smaller quantities Co, Mn, Zn, Cu, Mo, Cr, V.

hissingnoise - 12-11-2009 at 02:12

("Headache, poor attention span, irritability loss of memory and dullness are the early symptoms of lead exposure on the CNS. The ability to think. . .")

It seems a cruel irony that the ability to think clearly is so affected by an element that is so interesting that it invites scientific research. . .

dann2 - 12-11-2009 at 04:00

Hello,

Now, where was I...............
O yea

Once sensible precautions are taken (and they must be taken) with a Lead plating tank it is no more dangerous that lots of other endevors.

The problem with Lead it that in the past is was used all over the place willy nilly as some examples show.
The Romans used it to sweeten wine by putting Litharge into sour wine where Lead Acetate formed and sweetened it up.
Don't use Litharge as a sweetner, bad job.
Lead Nitrate solution was used in the past as a hand rub!
The stuff was added to petrol and subsequently spewed all over the place in tonnage amounts.

I will say this to one and all.
If you don't feel you have the confidence/ability to operate a Lead Nitrate plating tank without contaminating or poisoning yourself, or others, stay well away from the whole field of making and using LD Anodes. (and pyro stuff, cells, shooting, etc, etc).

There will be no problems unless work is carried out in a foolish and sloppy manner.

Mature reflection?
Now THERE'S a novel concept :cool:

Dann2

hissingnoise - 12-11-2009 at 05:09

Quote: Originally posted by dann2

If you don't feel you have the confidence/ability to operate a Lead Nitrate plating tank without contaminating or poisoning yourself. . .

Look dann2, it's about neither confidence or ability---what it is about is the Pb burden your system has accumulated practically since birth. . .
Adding to it in even minute amounts may affect your 'critical thinking' skills. . .that is the point you need to ponder!
That of course is assuming you haven't already plated one anode too many.
[edit]
I just had to look up the word 'reck' as I'd never encountered it before---I got this. . .
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reck

[Edited on 12-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

hissingnoise - 12-11-2009 at 07:47

Quote: Originally posted by dann2

Say heeeeehaaaaaa to deja vu (and hope we do not upset all the listening Gentlemen as we reck each others hair and break our nice manicured finger nails.)

I don't think there were any penal colonies in oz before the twelfth century. . .I could be wrong, though. . .

dann2 - 12-11-2009 at 08:27

Hello,

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

I have pondered and do not except that a (competent) person cannot
operate a Lead Plating tank and not get contaminated. Of course they may get a few atoms of Lead into their system but you are going to get that anyways if you go near an LD Anode or something that was made with an LD Anode (or fire a gun, drive a car with Leaded petrol in it). If one is worried about a few atoms of Lead. Don't go near LD Anode's in the first place. Do not go close to guns, shooting ranges, ammo, museums, stained glass windows (with Lead in them) etc etc etc, as you are guaranteed a few atoms of Lead in your system that may interfere with critical decision making.
This is of course ridiculous.
I think you are back to doing what you do best, taking the piss.

Of course if the statement, 'plating tanks are out', you made way above applies only to yourself then by all means apply it to yourself.
Lot's of people are quite capable of doing the job and not having their thinking faculties damaged by slopping around.

Dann2

BAN THE LD ANODE!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit2

I enclose a PM for the reverand hissing noise.

Start of pm
---------------------------------------

So anyway, young dann(two-ns), do you still see crossing swords with me as a 'clever choice', or do you wish to invite me to cut you up some more, just to finally get you to make up your obviously enfeebled 'mind'?
Just say the word. . .
I remain your very humble servant, hissingnoise.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Is this guy for real

I never quite know if you are being genuine or taking the piss and clowning around. I can see your stress levels rising, perhaps some Paul Simon..........

BAN ELEMENT No. 82

[Edited on 12-11-2009 by dann2]

[Edited on 12-11-2009 by dann2]

hissingnoise - 12-11-2009 at 08:39

Quote: Originally posted by dann2

Hello,
I think you are back to doing what you do best, taking the piss.

I think you may have a point there dann2 and furthermore, I'm probably erring wildly on the side of caution as far as lead is concerned---but ones faculties are not to taken for granted in our polluted modern World. . .
Incidentally treat that PM as if it had never existed---I'll certainly delete my end!

hissingnoise - 12-11-2009 at 09:05

I'm sorry dann2; it's obvious my pisstaking and clowning around has upset you very much more than I expected but IIRC, you're the one who fired the first round. . .

Swede - 12-11-2009 at 12:13

Hi Pat, good to see you.

My LD anode #2 will be fully tested this month, after a run with pure KCl to test the bucket cell adapter/concept.

As for the LD bath - it truly was a mentally unpleasant experiment. I used nickel nitrate (a carcinogen) along with the lead nitrate, both in high concentrations and large volumes. Materials have to be strong - there must be NO POSSIBILITY of accidental leakage or breakage. Even then, my LD plating outfit:

I ran a HEPA filter right next to the rig to minimize mist drift... and certainly a hood would have been superior. I also used a plastic drop cloth surrounding 1/2 of the rig.

After the plating experiments, the used electrolyte was properly stored, and I checked horizontal surfaces nearby with rhodizonic acid Pb swabs, which turn pink in the presence of lead. The plating rig had some mist on it, but in general it was well-contained and did not travel.

Symptoms: I was irritable and forgetful BEFORE the experiments!

As a kid, I molded hundreds of Pb balls for muzzleloaders, and used to jog with heavy hands that consisted of two 5 pound lead pigs. My hands were black afterwards.

I suspect I have some Pb in me, but anyone over about 40 sucked in more Pb in the form of tetraethyl lead in gasoline than we'd get messing with chemistry IF basic precautions are taken. Wear gloves, wash hands, wash nearby surfaces with moistened paper towels, etc.

[Edited on 12-11-2009 by Swede]

patsroom - 12-11-2009 at 12:34

Swede,
Good safety practice. That is always important and I can see that you take very good care of yourself when handling chemicals.
I would like a cost break down to the production of a Lead Dixoide Anode: One as if your would be able to product just one or two the first time that meets a requirtment that would be usable. Two the total cost it has cost just to get where you are at. And I think that a time break down as to all of this would be of use as well.
I hope you are able to provide the answers. But mostly I hope that the anodes that you made to test will be successful. It is very important not to lose sight as to how to make anodes to those who wish to know how to make their own.
As always it is good to hear from you and I hope to again hear what you have to said on the subject...........Pat

[Edited on 12-11-2009 by patsroom]

hissingnoise - 12-11-2009 at 12:48

Swede, I'm just hoping Pat's fabricator isn't into this forum. . .
As kids, my brothers and I did a lot of fishing so lead was carried in pockets nearly 24/7 and putting a weight on might be as basic as crimping the lead to a catgut knot using our teeth!
We also spent a lot of time in auto-garages and sort of liked the smell of exhaust-fumes.
Then there was the succession of pellet guns!
Writing in lead and making ingots was a passtime,too.
But today, if I saw a child handling lead I'd be horrified.
The news-item I mentioned earlier was about a just-retired plumber who worked for some months repairing lead-work on a large botanical garden.
He, fairly recently found he couldn't recognise his own wife unless she was wearing a familiar item of clothing (I know, it begs a joke about not recognising a woman with her clothes on.).
Now your set-up looks very professionally thought out, but I'm staying away from lead in solution for good. . .
And I hope the level I have stays the way it is. . .and I still remember how lead tasted. . .

Quote: Originally posted by Swede

As a kid, I molded hundreds of Pb balls for muzzleloaders, and used to jog with heavy hands that consisted of two 5 pound lead pigs. My hands were black afterwards.

patsroom - 12-11-2009 at 13:08

It is truly my hope that I have no one fabricating for me. As I myself would hope that I would not fabricate any thing that would be dishonest to any of those here.

.............Pat

hissingnoise - 12-11-2009 at 13:43

Ohhh. . .God. . .not another one. . .

patsroom - 12-11-2009 at 19:20

Sorry Did I misunderstand? If I did then we are still on in the good side of life. The pocket Dictionary did confirm the meaning that I accepted of the word fabricate v, -cated, cating.
Also I you like you to know that my sword is in a pawn shop right now so I will not be able to play sword fighting.

I think that would fall under: "Stop that or you will poke your eye out". I know my mother wouldn't be happy if she caught ( she is in her late 70's) us playing with sticks like that.
This would be my lame attempt at humor.

...................Pat

patsroom - 12-11-2009 at 19:30

Just a quick note to add: If the intent was of one to imply who is to make the anodes for me. Then I should have looked there first. Again I should have not at first looked to the negative side of the word.......Pat

[Edited on 13-11-2009 by patsroom]

hissingnoise - 13-11-2009 at 02:02

Quote: Originally posted by patsroom

This would be my lame attempt at humor.

...................Pat

ha. . .
I didn't know there was an Oregon on the sub-continent?

[Edited on 13-11-2009 by hissingnoise]

hissingnoise - 14-11-2009 at 05:49

To be serious for a moment Pat, an anode well suited for home electrolysis would preferably be a GSLD with LD thickness of ~6mm; its surface texture should be 'tight' and black rather than rough and brownish. . .
For shipping it should be set in cotton wool wrapped in several layers of bubble-wrap.
Graphite is the preferred substrate since it's cheaper and adhesion is better with graphite.
Gouging rods make a good substrate. . .

VerAye - 21-11-2009 at 01:42

I always got an Headache If I will last more than 3 hours in front of a computer. I do not why. My work is all about computer and I always take medicine every day. What could be the possible solution to remove this symptom of mine?

_________________
Tool Die

hissingnoise - 21-11-2009 at 01:46

Gee! Is business *that* bad?
Desperation?