Sciencemadness Discussion Board - home made rocket fuel.

home made rocket fuel.

Zeig - 13-12-2008 at 20:37

so, i want to make a homemade rocket engine but chemicals are hard for me to come by.

im thinking of a sugar rocket but is there anythign i can add to the mixture to make it stronger?

thanks!

Mr. Wizard - 13-12-2008 at 22:58

You don't need anything stronger until you can handle the sugar rocket, which is strong enough to launch anything you want. When you have mastered the sugar rockets 'grasshopper' , you will know the answer.

Levity aside, the sugar( or it's variants)+KNO3 mix, is a wide field to explore, and in itself presents dangers and hazards. Making a rocket isn't about making stronger mixtures, it's about getting your fuel to burn at a high enough pressure to provide thrust, but not high enough to blow up. It's a balancing act.

Your question is like a guy who climbs behind the steering wheel for the first time and wants to know if he can have a more powerful engine.

Yes, the chemicals are hard to get. I'm not going to spoon feed you. You will have to use the search engine, both in this site and on the net overall. You might even be forced to learn some chemistry and actually learn how it was made. That's how I learned. Learning the whole sequence is part of the fun.

Have fun, and remember we all just get two eyes and ten fingers; make them last the duration of the game. Loud noises and electric sparks have been the lure to many a scientist.

An interesting link added in edit:
http://makezine.com/images/07/strangelove.pdf

[Edited on by Mr. Wizard]

Zeig - 13-12-2008 at 23:39

hay thanks lol.
i know how the chemistry behind it works for the most part. im in IB (AP) chem. so ya. but it never hurts to learn more. thanks for the link.

vulture - 14-12-2008 at 01:55

Quote:

i know how the chemistry behind it works for the most part. im in IB (AP) chem.

If that's some advanced high school course, then no, you don't. I also hope you will take more care in making your rocket fuel than you do of your spelling and grammar.

hissingnoise - 14-12-2008 at 06:29

I intend (someday) trying sucrose octonitrate as a rocket propellant.
A mixture of this nitrate and AN (to balance OB) should be quite powerful and less polluting than AP propellants.
According to Davis, recrystallised SO is reasonably stable, fairly shock-insensitive and it deflagrates with violence.
Experience with this particular compound, anyone?

Swany - 14-12-2008 at 10:17

Quote:

Originally posted by hissingnoise
I intend (someday) trying sucrose octonitrate as a rocket propellant.
A mixture of this nitrate and AN (to balance OB) should be quite powerful and less polluting than AP propellants.
According to Davis, recrystallised SO is reasonably stable, fairly shock-insensitive and it deflagrates with violence.
Experience with this particular compound, anyone?

It seems that under the pressure of a rocket casing it could maybe DDT? I'm sure you've thought of this, but, consider sugar rockets. The propellant is fairly sane when it is not in a casing, but in a casing... Perhaps in your case, the AN would desensitize nitrosucrose, though, a more accurate description may be the nitrosucrose will sensitize the AN. How large of motors are you considering? I agree that it would be an incredibly ballsy propellant.

crazyboy - 14-12-2008 at 10:28

I attempted to make sucrose octanitrate and it was the biggest pain in the ass. The SO was sticky and semisolid it was very difficult to scrape off the beaker and yields weren't that great. If you plan to do it I suggest you keep it very cold. There are way better rocket propellants my favorite being whistle mix.

hissingnoise - 14-12-2008 at 11:46

Swany, because of the DDT uncertainty the motors will be small (and nozzleless) to start.
Because of the tedium of HNO3 distillation they'll probably stay fairly small, but who knows. . .
Crazyboy, the difficulties you pointed out might influence things, too.
BTW, what did you use it for, and how did it go?
Oh, and were you able to decant the mixed acid for re-use.

Swany - 14-12-2008 at 22:56

To the OP: rocket candy fuel variants are a powerful and versatile set of propellants. When you are bored with the standard sugar/nitrate melts, add a percentage of Fe2O3. The unconfined burn rate will double-- a very different fuel... perhaps closer to what you originally had in mind. You really can't go wrong with the rocket candy mixes; they produce a high volume of gas, don't have the burning temps that metals do, are dirt cheap, and can be make loopy by adding rust. Whats not to love? (The hygoscopicness)

hissingnoise - 15-12-2008 at 04:32

Well, yes, that and the reduced ISP.
I've toyed with the idea of a nitroglycol/NC gel but here, too, DDT would be a real concern.
It would, though, be less likely to DDT than the ngl equivalent.
And the ISP should be very high. . .

SNL - 27-1-2009 at 16:57

I've been playing around with Rocket candy for a while now, and i've tried a couple of catalysts for improved burn time. I have recently, however, been wondering if an excess of sucrose could be introduced at the beginning (using the recrystalisation from solution method) and subsequently, at the end, while it is semi solid and cooling, introduce a small amount of KMnO4 to balance out the excess.

My problem is this, is there a reasonable chance that, at the 60-70 C range, could the addition of the KMnO4 cause spontaeneous ignition?

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but, being in high school, I am not going to pretend I know that chemistry behind this.

PHILOU Zrealone - 28-1-2009 at 08:28

Assuming what happens to 1,2,3-propantriol (glycerin) when admixed with KMnO4; there is a big chance your mix of suggar will react exothermically with it...

Glycerine en KMnO4 burst into flame after a while depending on the speed of migration of the MnO4(-) into the viscous glycerin --> Temperature dependant...self heating occuring from the exotherm speeds this up into runnaway and flame...

Now if you play with suggar saturated solutions in water at 60°C, maybe the water present in it will temper the reaction and only produce bubbles and MnO2...

Maybe check first if MnO2 is of use as a catalyst, MnO2 can be found in some batteries...

SNL - 28-1-2009 at 13:22

Thank you. I will check if MnO2 works as a catalyst, and will will try this with very small samples. I will follow up this post to confirm the results.

symboom - 2-2-2021 at 01:12

Sugar rocket using sorbitol instead of sucrose
It makes an easier to cast solid rocket motor

https://youtu.be/nPM3KcHzN6I

TriiodideFrog - 2-2-2021 at 01:52

Potassium Nitrate and Sorbitol is not bad.

http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/

caterpillar - 2-2-2021 at 04:30

Do you want something more interesting? If you can obtain perchlorates, try KClO4 or NH4ClO4 based fuels. or ammonium picrate 45% plus NaNO3 45% plus some bind like epoxy.

foreign maple - 2-2-2021 at 07:49

if your dedicated and are willing to shell out a lot of money, you can extract NH4ClO4 from sparklers. it is not efficient at all though. also you can react NH4NO3 with KCl in a double displacement to form your KNO3.
also oxidizers are definitely a big deal when it comes to rocketry, but test out different high density high energy fuels.

Alkoholvergiftung - 2-2-2021 at 09:16

https://hackaday.io/project/5743-green-eutectic-rocket-prope...
Sorbitol alternativ mix

Pyro_cat - 2-2-2021 at 19:48

Mixed sugar with the potassium chlorate made from bleach. Looked like it burned similar to KN03 sugar rocket fuel but I read its more difficult to not blow up the rocket with this mix.

B(a)P - 2-2-2021 at 21:06

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat

Mixed sugar with the potassium chlorate made from bleach. Looked like it burned similar to KN03 sugar rocket fuel but I read its more difficult to not blow up the rocket with this mix.

Sucrose/potassium chlorate mixes have a low autoignition temperature, about that of the melting point of sucrose, so it is certainly not suitable for melt casting. It is also a somewhat impact sensitive mix.
Sucrose/potassium chlorate is best to be avoided in rocketry for these reasons, chlorate in general doesn't really have any application in rocketry because of its instability.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-2-2021 at 00:12

Attempts to produce a rocket engine with KCLO3 end in 80% explosion. This is my experience.

MineMan - 3-2-2021 at 12:17

Yeah don’t use kclo3 for rocket fuel.

Nitrosio - 4-2-2021 at 02:40

KClO3 + 30-40% Binder (Epoxide, PUR, PE, PET, Asphalt, Wax etc.)

xxxhibition - 4-2-2021 at 10:50

Watch this
:cool:

B(a)P - 4-2-2021 at 11:53

Quote: Originally posted by Nitrosio

KClO3 + 30-40% Binder (Epoxide, PUR, PE, PET, Asphalt, Wax etc.)

Interesting, does having the chlorate in a binder/fuel make it less prone to explosive failure? Do you have any more detail, have you tried any of these or do you have references for them?
I had a search and wax doesn't seem to work, I concede that this is a crude test. Chlorate and wax

Fulmen - 4-2-2021 at 12:37

CHLORATES HAS NO PLACE IN AMATEUR ROCKETRY. PERIOD.

This cannot be stressed enough. Chlorate compositions can be extremely sensitive to heat, impact and friction. It's one of the fastest routes to explosions, failure and injury.

@B(a)P: The reason why chlorate and wax isn't more spectacular is due to the low boiling point of the wax. It acts like a cooling bath, preventing the positive thermal feedback that other mixes are subjected to. But don't let that fool you, it's still a high explosive mixture.

B(a)P - 4-2-2021 at 14:05

@Fulmen - Thanks for that. Wax has quite a high enthalpy of fusion so presumably that is a factor also.
Rocketry is of interest to me from a theoretical perspective, I can't put it into practice as I live in the heart of a large city.
I have read extensively on it and have never come across a propellant that includes chlorate and pretty much every text I have read indicates, as you say, that chlorates are a terrible idea, so I was curious to understand where @Nitrosio had found this information.

MineMan - 4-2-2021 at 15:06

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

CHLORATES HAS NO PLACE IN AMATEUR ROCKETRY. PERIOD.

This cannot be stressed enough. Chlorate compositions can be extremely sensitive to heat, impact and friction. It's one of the fastest routes to explosions, failure and injury.

@B(a)P: The reason why chlorate and wax isn't more spectacular is due to the low boiling point of the wax. It acts like a cooling bath, preventing the positive thermal feedback that other mixes are subjected to. But don't let that fool you, it's still a high explosive mixture.

Thank you!!

This needed to be said. Chlorate mixtures can be insanely sensitive, even when plasticized.... as in primary explosive sensitivity. That’s what test confirm. Even when in putty form. Just. Don’t. Stop

MineMan - 4-2-2021 at 17:59

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

Fyndium - 5-2-2021 at 13:24

Amateurs like stuff that is easy to get or make. Hence chlorates and all substitute stuff is so much sought upon. It'd be wise to say that either do it good or don't do it at all.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-2-2021 at 23:01

@Fyndium....Holy words.
KClO3 + asphalt is only error in the digit. Fake news, which is repeatedly interpretation from old spread source.
Mixture exist, but is it KClO4 + the asphalt. Beginers catching this desinformation and use as rescue rope because they have KClO3, which is easy available. KClO3 + the asphalt is desinformation a like rocket fuel.

Pyro_cat - 7-2-2021 at 19:45

I filled a small glass 10 ml vial with KClO3 and sugar mix expecting a small boom and instead I got a rocket.

I think a rocket could be made, might need to taper the mix to be less volatile from the start point to the end point to prevent it from accelerating into a boom.

Maybe forget about a core burner , thinking that for end burner add more sugar towards he back of the thing to slow it down.

No one says you have to use the same mix for the whole thing.

[Edited on 8-2-2021 by Pyro_cat]

Fulmen - 8-2-2021 at 01:04

Pyro_cat: NO! Could you please stop talking and start listening?

Pyro_cat - 8-2-2021 at 17:41

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

Pyro_cat: NO! Could you please stop talking and start listening?

I think I am ready.

Made some flash yesterday out of the chlorate I made from bleach + al and garden sulfur.

Small pile on the test plate like I have done before very bright but not very impressive slow burn. The hammer tests same as usual.

Lets see what happens if I put a few grams in that little glass vile no real top just a loose tin foil plug.

My prediction was with the course particle size maybe a hiss of gas escaping followed by small boom of the container failing.

Glad I am safety minded and had it behind that big rock with long fuse, that was old school m80 level energy release, damn !

Chlorate is nasty. I get it now.

[Edited on 9-2-2021 by Pyro_cat]

Pyro_cat - 8-2-2021 at 17:48

If there is a next time no sulfur. I know its not recommended. It should work without it.

I will find out, experiments more fun then asking the forum all the answers.

Vomaturge - 8-2-2021 at 18:32

True, experiments are usually more fun than asking questions/reading about theory. Unless they're like J_sum1's experiment where he had less than a gram of an experimental chlorate mixture ignite during mixing and blow a hole in the palm of his hand.

Somewhere theres a (possibly incomplete?) list of things that will cause high sensitivity or even worse, variable sensitivity or even delayed ignition when mixed with chlorates. I want to say aluminum was one, but perhaps not as fickle as sulfur that gradually builds up acids on its surface.

As far as rocket propellants go, is there any clear advantage against KNO3? If you have to use a less-than-ideal ratio of KClO3 with a second-rate fuel for safety reasons, you're probably back to a weak propellant. Maybe better to play with nozzle and grain geometry? I haven't done much in the way of pyrotechnics, and I'm no rocket scientist so take that with a grain of saltpeter.

[Edited on 9-2-2021 by Vomaturge]

Pyro_cat - 8-2-2021 at 19:32

Fully shielded I put a drop of sulfuric acid on tiny pile of chlorate and sugar mix and it quickly ignited. I am guessing that besides the sensitivity issues that reaction is why you keep sulfur away from chlorates.

Keep meaning to try making successful sugar KNO3 rockets. Made the mix and experimented but never made a successful rocket. Only 2 low effort tests before I started on the thermite project.

This should be my next project.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-2-2021 at 02:05

A quality rocket engine was developed in the Laboratory of Liptakov. Basic data: Engine housing 122g, engine capacity 150g classic BP. With a density of 1.85 - 1.95 g / cc. Thrust time 10 seconds. Thrust average 1.2 Kg. Start peak thrust 2,1 Kg / 0,5 sec. Total impulse 120 Ns. Construction - end burner type. Used here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z17iQNabhbk

Nitrosio - 9-2-2021 at 09:14

NH4ClO4 + Al is explosive. NH4ClO4 + Al + Binder is ok.
KClO3 + a good Binder for Propellant is possible, not?

Alkoholvergiftung - 9-2-2021 at 11:41

I ve heard where i live they used Newspaper soaked in concentrated Chlorate solution as an rocked fuel. I think Rolled toiletpaper or newspaper can also used as gun propelant if you hold it on max. concentration and same temperature. Other problem with chlorates is if the inner presure rises to much it detonates. Students made roman candels with the stuff first time it shots it the flares and than boom.

Nitrosio - 9-2-2021 at 11:53

AN + Paper is for Rockets. KClO3 + Paper ist for Canones and Salutes etc.

Industrial Adhesive - 1-4-2021 at 20:59

check out a guy named Richard Nakka https://www.nakka-rocketry.net/ he has been doing rocketry for a very long time and has all the info that you need. also check out some amature rocketry fourms. there are pleanty of other cool rocket propellants that are used commonly used such as nitrocellulose colloid which is either left as is or mixed with another additives https://patents.google.com/patent/US3617400A/en https://history.nasa.gov/conghand/propelnt.htm

also have you ever thought of attempting to make a hybrid motor? they are pretty cool. and if you cant get a hold of common oxidizers thats a good option.

Pyro_cat - 5-4-2021 at 17:32

I still think the chlorate rocket is feasible.

Every rocket even NASA, everyone gets far away from the thing before launch in case it blows up.

very small scale but I put some of my Chlorate mix in a plastic wire nut and it behaved like a rocket. It seemed like it went for the plastic instead of the aluminum cause it was easier to get at as fuel.

I was not even thinking it at the time but the plastic in a wire nut I would imagine is designed to resist combustion that might be useful in slowing it down,

Its behavior reminded me of the Oxygen in the acrylic tube video.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-4-2021 at 01:57

Even if aluminum fronts and steel bolts are used, the engine will be heavy. In amateur practice, engines are successful where the engine body (+ necessary parts) is lighter than fuel. Every gram of solid engine components determines engine efficiency. Another issue, is the specific impulse of a given fuel.
If you look at the Nakka website, you will not find chlorates there.

[Edited on 11-4-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

caterpillar - 11-4-2021 at 14:35

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Attempts to produce a rocket engine with KCLO3 end in 80% explosion. This is my experience.

The simplest way to prepare KClO4 is to melt KClO3. if it doesn't go off, it will turn into a mix of KCl and KClO4.

Bert - 13-4-2021 at 08:31

I don't reccomend chlorate for propellant uses, all the above comments about tendency towards CATOs, blown up gun barrels & other accidents are typical.

However, there has been some use in the past, I particularly recall the Selkuk Oztap article on whistles, including drivers and rockets from Pyrotechnica IX:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&...

Attachment: Whistles_Pyrotechnica_Xi.pdf (4.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 455 times

Fulmen - 13-4-2021 at 12:19

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat

Every rocket even NASA, everyone gets far away from the thing before launch in case it blows up

Fair enough, but that's only half the problem. First you need to make the propellant, and chlorate compositions tend to be sensitive. So you might want to set up some sort of remote handling which can be much more work than making the rocket.
And even if you can have it blow up without risk of injury your rocket, the payload and possibly the launch pad is gone. That's a lot of work for a loud booom.

Pyro_cat - 17-4-2021 at 17:48

I really need to experiment with KNO3 sugar rockets before I would even attempt conquering chlorate.

Mix with fire resistant plastics ? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-safe_polymers

Or the other idea is to have a pulsing rocket like a strobe rocket with slow it down with delay charges layered into an end burner similar to the slow down stage at the end before parachute charge,

These delays might be able to stop the burn from accelerating to the point of blowing up the rocket.

I am just talking theory, I don't see myself ever trying.