Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Ethyl Perchlorate

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Blaster - 8-11-2003 at 00:02

Am I the only person to have made Ethyl Perchlorate outside a laboratory? I made it in my Garage!
I used Meyer and Spormann's 1936 preparation by dry distilling Barium ethyl sulphate (also home prepared) and Barium Perchlorate. I translated the text from the German and took heed of their warnings about loosing fingertips etc.
I wore a motorbike helmet, a piece of sheet steel over my torso and twin thick leather gloves and didn't suffer any unexpected explosions!
I've been making explosives on an amateur level for many years but this stuff is just unbelievable! NCl3 and nitroglycerin pale in comparison. A single drop blew a beer can in half, again a single drop heated briefly in a spoon blew a hole through the spoon and out of my hand across the room. The lightest shock is enough to detonate it - I would say its equivalent to NCl3 in sensitivity. I made about 1ml all told but it can't be stored for long as it hydrolyses within about a week.
Fascinating stuff - I agree with them about its explosive violence, nothing I've ever made comes close! I should point out I'm an insane but trained professional chemist so don't recommend anyone has a go-I'll forward the translation to anyone who wants it though!

Madog - 8-11-2003 at 06:13

holy SHIT

youre a nut, alkyl perchlorates, NCl3, damn.

thats awesome though, thats jsut amazeing, the power. glad to hear you didnt get any unwanted explosions. thanks for shareing your experiances, its greatly apreciated.

edit: got pics? i owuld love to see a pic ofthe spoon or whateve else. if you cant provie a pic can you please provide some measuremeants of the hole and thicknessof the spoon, and the nature of the hole?

[Edited on 11/8/03 by Madog]

Blaster - 8-11-2003 at 14:53

Here's a picture of a can of beer after the minutest amount (less than a drop) was detonated on it - note the exit holes on the other side! Larger amounts just ripped cans apart.

The original texts of these researchers make entertaining reading! Here's a couple of quotes:
Hare & Boye (who discovered the ethyl ester) "we are induced to believe, that in explosive violence it is not surpassed by any substance known in chemistry";
Meyer and Spormann (the latter lost three fingertips in the course of his work!) "We know of no other substance that is as powerful or destructive. The unbelievable brissance of the explosions result in extremely loud detonations which makes work unpleasant .... we wore thick leather gloves, iron masks and thick glass goggles (pre-plastic era!), and held the receptacles with long holders"!

I can sympathise with them, the ester is frighteningly powerful even when you expect the explosion. The shock wave hits you pretty strongly with the tiniest quantities and ear defenders are a must - even with them my ears were still ringing.

On a more technical note - they compare the perchloric esters with the nitrate esters. They behave similarly eg. ethyl nitrate is explosive but very much less so than the perchlorate for thermodynamic reasons. A nitrate ester everyone here should be familiar with is of course nitroglycerin but no comparable glycerol ester of the perchlorates has been isolated due to the extreme instability. It is for this reason that most perchlorate esters are academic curiosities and not used on a wider scale for explosives even though they are far more brissant.

DSCF0020.JPG - 79kB

Blaster - 8-11-2003 at 15:22

Just found the spoon - enjoy!

Its about a 1mm thick stainless steel lab spoon.

DSCF0026.JPG - 47kB

Haggis - 8-11-2003 at 15:57

This is quite amazing and interesting at the same time. You must have some large cahone's to be playing with this stuff. Keep us updated with your experiments and pictures are always golden.

American dimes laying around a European's laboratory...heh.

Madog - 8-11-2003 at 16:37

yes, definately keep us updated, we would love to hear abuout it.

those pics are AMAZEING, the spoon especialy, i couldnt have expected beautiful results like that! the cleaness of the hole, so bristant.

this makes me wonder about CH3ClO4 though, i guess it would be extremely unstable.

Blaster - 9-11-2003 at 01:39

Put a dime in there because the first reply was from the USA!

Anyhow, Meyer and Spormann did make the methyl and propyl esters too.

They said that the methyl ester was even more sensitive and frequently detonated when being taken up in a pipette. It hydrolysed within 2 hours.

The propyl ester could only be made very slowly as heating the retort in an oil bath to 200'C like the prep for the other esters caused a massive explosion (they found that the fragments of glass were covered in carbon). They had to reduce the temp!

Another unusual ester was made in 1930 - trichloromethyl perchlorate from anhydrous carbon tetrachloride and AgClO4. It was so explosive that it could only be made in minute quantities and couldn't be completely isolated as it detonated with extreme violence when the CCl4 was evaporated off.

perchlorates of simple amines

chemoleo - 9-11-2003 at 06:55

On that note, does anyone have info on perchlorate amines (not hexamine etc, which has been covered), but say methyl/ethyl amine perchlorate, etc? I guess they would be more stable, but nonetheless nicely powerful!

Blaster - 9-11-2003 at 09:17

Well, funny you should mention it, but me!
Tetramethylammonium perchlorate - its a white solid powder and is very easy to make from TMA hydroxide and aqueous HClO4.
Its another very interesting compound having both fuel and oxidiser in the same molecule and is an ideal rocket fuel! In fact it is the sole constituent, to my knowledge, in mini-rockets (the whistling ones that are readily available in the UK).
It does not explode (unless confined) when ignited, but burns very quickly and cleanly leaving very little residue and making no smoke.

BromicAcid - 9-11-2003 at 20:09

First off "Praise to Blaster!"

Even though I'm really not into energetic materials you have raised the bar for us at science madness, that's not easy to do, congrats!

After hearing about some of these tests you performed I took a look through the net for other information and found that Bretherick described ethyl perchlorate in The Handbook of Reactive Chemical Hazards as "The most explosive substance known" So of course that raises the question of how is it the most explosive. Which brings me to wonder what is the VOD and the lead block expansion for this wondrous chemical. Most books just don't seem to list explosive properties for exceedingly unstable compounds, well, if they were ever tested to begin with.

One other thing. This question directed to Blaster. I was looking up some info on the synthesis of ethyl perchlorate and found that it is 'supposedly' easily made from ethanol and perchloric acid. I'm assuming that it was easier to control/make with the barium perchlorate and the barium ethylsulfate procedure but I was wondering if there were any other advantages. Thanks a lot.

Blaster - 10-11-2003 at 01:27

Praise indeed, thankyou!

I thought it was about time to raise the alkyl perchlorates out of obscurity. They have been very little studied and even most prefossional chemists are unaware of them. You are right in that the thermodynamic properties have never been studied. These days, very few people are prepared to put themselves at risk for the advancement of science and my guess is that they will never will. I'm going to put all my German translations on a website shortly but it'll take a while - watch this space!

As to other methods of synthesis of ethyl perchlorate, Meyer and Spormann tried several. Synthesis can be performed from ethanol and perchloric acid BUT it is not easy because it is crucial that both ingredients are truly anhydrous. This means vacuum distilling 70% HClO4 with 100% H2SO4, itself a very hazardous and technically difficult operation. Having done so, you cannot just add the absolute ethanol because it detonates on contact with the 100% acid. A tiny trickle down the side of the flask at a very slow rate is the technique. Then water can be added to precipitate the insoluble ester.

They also made the ester from anhydrous ethylbromide and AgClO4, again this was difficult because the AgClO4 is very hygroscopic - they dried it over Phosphorous Pentoxide for a month and the ethylbromide must be freshly distilled!

All in all, the barium ethyl sulphate method is by far the easiest, I can verify that - it can be done by amateurs but the utmost care is needed. For your info, the ethyl ester was discovered in 1841 by Hare and Boye, Americans no less! I will also post their entertaining but not very tecnical paper on my website soon!

vulture - 10-11-2003 at 04:17

Mr. Blaster,

You are hereby officially awarded the

Medal of Honor

for most courageous actions in the field of amateur madscience.

May the gods of chemistry be with you in all your experimental endeavours, guiding you to the most obscure and controversial knowledge there is to be acquired.

May the gods of chemistry also have pity for your limbs and health, ensuring you a fruitful career filled with exciting and most useful discoveries.

With the utmost respect,

Vulture

[Edited on 10-11-2003 by vulture]

Blind Angel - 10-11-2003 at 07:38

Maybe the text could also be hosted in the Science Madness Library, which is well started but a bit tiny :(

Blaster - 10-11-2003 at 08:09

Ok, here's the link to my webpage. Note that the information contained within was very time consuming and difficult to obtain.

I had to look up the references in a comprehensive 1950's tome entitled "The Chemical Elements and their compounds" by Sidgewick, travel to one of the largest historical chemical libraries in the world in Imperial Collage, London to get them and translate most of them from German.

Hare and Boye's journal was in the rare books dept and I had to obtain special permission to look at it!

Feast your eyes on this:

http://homepages.tesco.net/cdodgyd/perchloric.htm

Blaster - 14-11-2003 at 00:21

The site has been updated for faster loading pages, my thanks to chemoleo for the suggestion. Always happy to hear from anyone on the subject of explosives, especially the perchlorates!

vulture - 14-11-2003 at 07:06

I would be VERY interested to see experiments with nitroniumperchlorate...:D

BromicAcid - 20-11-2003 at 18:55

Ethyl Perchlorate is quite the interesting molecule. Ive been looking up all I can in my library and found some other alkyl perchlorates that seem to have a nice ring to them.

Peroxyacetyl Perchlorate CH3COOOClO3 yeah, that one seems kind of unstable. And then Ethylene Diperchlorate, supposedly it's capable of detonation by the addition of a few drops of water.

Blaster - 21-11-2003 at 00:35

Excellent! Can you post references / scans? Must admit I haven't heard of these and I'm very interested.

Amazing to think ethyl perchlorate was discovered way back in 1841, before the discovery of nitroglycerin (1847)etc. Can you imagine their surprise, they can't have known what hit them!!!

BromicAcid - 21-11-2003 at 16:15

I found them in "Handbook of Reactive Chemical Hazards" it give some references. For Peroxyacetyl Perchlorate it lists
Quote:

Yakovleva, A. A. et al., Chem. Abs., 1979, 91, 210847

And for Ethylene diperchlorate
Quote:

Schumacher, 1960, 214 "A highly sensitive, violently explosive material, capable of detonation by addition of a few drops of water."

Also under the general heading of Alkyl Perchlorates it lists the following references:
Hofmann, K. A. et al., Ber., 1909, 42, 4390
Meyer, J. et al., Z. Anorg. Chem., 1936, 228, 314
Schumacher, 1960, 214
Burton, H. et al., Analyst, 1955, 80, 4
Hoffman, D. M., J. Org. Chem., 1971, 36, 1716
I believe that you collected your information from some of these. Im going to try and find one or two of them to find some more info, I will help any way I can.

Blaster - 22-11-2003 at 03:17

Thank you, that's wonderful! I will visit Imperial collage library next time I'm in London!
I 'missed' the latter references because my main reference text book dates from the late 50's! Perhaps I'd better update it - trouble with more modern text books is they miss out on the interesting obscure compounds and concentrate on orbital theory and all that theoretical stuff. All well and good but not of much use to the amateur!

Blaster - 28-11-2003 at 05:09

Just signed up for Brethericks' online database. Great resource though not entirely correct about the alkyl perchlorates being "easily" made from the alcohol and HClO4!

As to whether ethyl perchlorate is the most explosive compound known I'm not too sure either - I'd have thought the methyl ester was more so because it has an oxygen excess in the molecule!

Another interesting perchlorate mentioned is the trifluoromethyl ester - its (almost) stable due to the immense strength of the C-F bonds!

There is a great section on the perchlorate salts of nitrogenous bases both organic and inorganic, most of them have found use as rocket propellants or are explosive.

Of particular interest are the perchlorates of ethanolamine and ethylene diamine, the latter being considerably more powerful than TNT! Preparation in most cases must be fairly straight forward acid-base reactions like the TMA salt I mentioned in an earlier posting. There's a whole world of possibilities with these salts! ;)

BromicAcid - 11-12-2003 at 21:11

I borrowed the Schumacher book though an interlibrary loan program and read it front to back. It was a bit of a dissapointment as it only devoted about 12 pages to organic perchlorates. The most interesting section was on the Diazonium Perchlorates:
Quote:

A number of diazonium perchlorates were prepared by Hofmann and Arnoldi. These salts are sparringly soluble in water and are extremely explosive. The authors report that benzenediazonium perchlorate, a crystalline salt, is so explosve that a few centigrams of the compound, if allowed to fall on hard wood, will tear a deep hole in it. o-Toluenediazonium perchlorate will explode with great severity from the slightest pressure of a porcelain spatula, even when the compound is moist with ether. The (alpha)- and (beta)-naphthalenediazonium perchlorates also exploded violently when dry. The diazonium perchlorate of p-phenylenediamine was reported in 1910 to be the most explosive substance known. Their coupling power show them to be normal diazonium derivatives.

The sections on Nitroxyl Perchlorate and Nitrosyl Perchlorate were quite the let down. Regardless, these substances sound quite insane and I figured they deserved mention here.

Blaster - 12-12-2003 at 15:15

Very interesting - I must have a go at making these salts. Presumably they are made by the usual diazotization process but substituting HCl etc with HClO4? Like other diazonium salts they probably start decomposing unless the temp is kept low too?

Did Schumacher give a synthesis of Ethylene diperchlorate (or a reference to it) as mentioned in Bretherick's database? This compund sounds spectacularly explosive and I'm curious as to how it is synthesised!

BromicAcid - 12-12-2003 at 22:37

Additional information on the diazonium salts included:
Quote:

The diazonium perchlorates are particularly hazardous, being exploded by the slightest shock when dry. Hoffman and Arnoldi found that a few centigrams of benzenediazonium perchlorate falling on hard wood tore a deep hole in it, although the explosion was so localized as to leave intact a thin glass vessel 20 cm away. Even when wet with ether, o-toluenediazonium perchlorate exploded with great violence under slight pressure from a porcelain spatula. p-Toluenediazonium perchlorate was less sensative then the preceeding two salts, but both the a- and b-naphthalenediazonium perchlorates exploded violently when dry, m-Nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate exploded spontaneously when heated to about 154 C, and was also sensitive to shock or to a blow. For use as primers, the maximum detonating power of the aromatic diazoperchlorates was obtained by the mononitro compound.

So since such a high temp is used to detonate the nitrobenzene derivative I guess some of the diazonium salts are somewhat more resilliant to heating then expected. On the note of perchlorate esters of ethylene glycol or glycerine the book had this to say.
Quote:

Partial and complete esters with ethylene glycol, glycerine and pentaerythritol were prepared by Zinov'ev by incremental addition of the alcohol to cooled (-75 to -78 C) anhydrous perchloric acid, followed by heating to 60 to 80 C. These reaction mixtures could not be diluted directly with water, since even a few drops of water caused violent explosions. Dilution was effected by first adding the constant boiling mixture of perchloric acid and water, after which, on addition of water alone, the heavy ester seperated from the aqueous solution.

Sorry I can't give exact references, they were footnoted in the text and I failed to make photocopies of the pages that relayed them. Although the procedure involving anhydrous perchloric acid seems a bit out of reach of the average mad scientist.... or right up his alley, depends on how you look at it. Good luck!:D

Microtek - 13-12-2003 at 02:43

I have made m-nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate as well as the dinitro ( most likely 2,4-dinitro ) derivative. They are both powerful primary explosives with an incredibly high initiating power ( at least as good as undextrinated pressed lead azide; even on a volumetric basis ), but the mononitro compound is a little too sensitive, being exploded by vigorous rubbing with a ceramic pestle on a steel anvil. The dinitro compound is much less sensitive, about as much as HMTD.

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 13-12-2003 at 21:21

1,2- and 1,3-diperchloratopropane are perfect OB explosives!
C<sub>3</sub>H<sub>6</sub>Cl<sub>2</sub>O<sub>8</sub> <s>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;></s> 3CO<sub>2</sub> + 2H<sub>2</sub>O + 2HCl

is the diazotation product of p-phenylene diamine the p-phenylene <b>di</b>diazonium diperchlorate ?

Blaster - 25-12-2003 at 09:41

Yes, yes, I know I'm mad but I've tasted ethyl perchlorate!!!

After all its discoverers did and curiosity got the better of me! I used a standard food tasting strip - the ester has a very pleasant odour and a sweet taste that changes to a burning one like cinnamon as they describe. A very unusual sensation caused no doubt by hydrolysis on the tongue to ethanol and perchloric acid!

Brings a whole new meaning to "don't try this at home"!!!:o

Dichlorine Heptaoxide Cl2O7

chemoleo - 31-1-2004 at 09:37

I read something interesting today, in Advanced inorganic Chemistry by Cotton and Wilkinson:

Quote:

Dichlorine heptaoxide is the most stable chlorine oxide. It is a colourless liquid formed by dehydration of perchloric acid with P2O5 at -10 deg C, followed by vacuum distillation with precautions taken against explosion. It reacts with water and OH- to generate ClO4-. Electron diffraction shows the structure O3ClOClO3 (so the anhydride of perchloric acid). The reaction of Cl2O7 with alcohols yields alkyl perchlorates (ROClO3), which find use as intermediates in synthesis. It reacts (and this is cool) similarly with amines to yeild R2NClO3 or RHNClO3!!!!!


How cool is that? Blaster, fancy making some amine-perchlorates?

Besides, I am thinking that the distillation may not be necessary, possibly a mix of 99% perchloric acid and P2O5 will be enough, whereby the resulting phosphoric acid (??) hopefully does not interfere with the reaction...

[Edited on 31-1-2004 by chemoleo]

Mumbles - 31-1-2004 at 18:46

If I'm not mistaken, can't Cl2O7 be generated in much the same way as Mn2O7? I think it may be the chlorate salt in this case. I'm quite confident that a mixture of Chlorate and fuel will ignite on contact with Sulfuric Acid. Quite similar to Permanganate and fuel.

vulture - 1-2-2004 at 12:40

I'm quite confident that a mixture of Chlorate and fuel will ignite on contact with Sulfuric Acid.

That's because hypergolic ClO2 is formed.

meselfs - 7-2-2004 at 19:10

Amazing!

BromicAcid - 7-2-2004 at 20:02

Quote:

If I'm not mistaken, can't Cl2O7 be generated in much the same way as Mn2O7?


To an extent you're right. When potassium permanganate is added to concentrated sulfuric acid it becomes permanganic acid, which is then dehydrated to Mn2O7. With perchloric acid it is a bit more difficult. It would have to be done in two steps, the first would be the making of the perchloric acid with sulfuric acid and a suitible perchlorate, then distilling the perchloric acid with almost 6 times as much fuming sulfuric acid! This gives anhydrous perchloric acid which is actually an equilibrium mixture of Cl2O7 and HClO4 and H2O.

So some Cl2O7 could be created similarly to Mn2O7 but you would need a whole lot of H2SO4 and heat, and I believe that the distillation is what drives the reaction foreward, not to mention anhydrous perchloric acid is not a nice creature in the world of chemistry.

Blaster - 12-2-2004 at 15:46

I believe anhydrous HClO4 decomposes to various oxides of chlorine when stored, Cl2O7 being the principle oxide formed. This is the reason all the textbooks don't advise storage of the pure acid!

PS: I'm on a tour of the USA at the moment so my explosive exploits are on hold!

BromicAcid - 13-2-2004 at 11:11

In a book of hazardous chemicals and their reactions I ran across this for barium perchlorate:
Quote:
Alcohols
Kirk-Othmer, 1964, Vol. 5, 75
Distillation of mixtures with C1-C3 alcohols gives the highly explosive alkyl perchlorates. Extreme shock-sensitivity is still shown by n-octyl perchlorate.

Just adding more information to the thread, I don't know how well this works in realation to the Barium ethylsulfate with Barium perchlorate method but it does sound interesting.

BromicAcid - 20-3-2004 at 10:51

Here is a kind of funny addition to this thread:

http://www.engin.umich.edu/~cre/04chap/html/ahp04-a.htm

Here are some highlights:

"A rather sinister-looking gentleman sidles up to you one night and in a sibilant whisper asks you to make him some methyl perchlorate."

"You're not too comfortable with this situation, but times are hard, and you need the money."


But there is also pertinent information contained within, such as a rate constant for this reaction in benzene:

MeI + AgClO4 ---> MeClO4 + MgCl

It's a fairly slow reaction by the way.

chemoleo - 18-4-2004 at 08:11

Except that your oxygen balance is bad to start off with. Adding more combustibles surely won't help.
Plus the inherent instability of EtClO4, I certainly wouldnt try it.
It's like asking, how about mixing NI3:NH3 with a few other nasties...

Blaster - 26-4-2004 at 00:13

Halogen,
You need to (re)-read my website. The alkyl perchlorates are so inherantly unstable they can only be made by a few methods. In almost all cases, hydrolysis will be the dominant reaction. Dry distillation is really the only viable route for the home chemist.
Perchloric esters
The manufacture of pure Cl2O7 is difficult and hazadous needing advanced equipment, so that route (even if possible) just isn't worth it.

New web page address

Blaster - 26-8-2004 at 08:19

New address for my webpage (changed due to a broadband upgrade):

PS: anyone had a go at ethyl perchlorate yet?!!!

http://www.cdodgyd.f2s.com/perchloric.htm

BromicAcid - 26-8-2004 at 16:51

No go at it yet, but what about you? You were really active making ethyl perchlorate and tetranitromethane in the course of a few weeks, then nothing of your other exploits, are you still actively experimenting?

Blaster - 27-8-2004 at 03:18

Thanks Bromic. I haven't done any more with Ethyl Perchlorate since but to assist those of you who might want a go at making it, here's a pic of the apparatus:



Firstly, note how small everything is. The condenser measures about 3" in length.

The aluminium bowl below the flask is filled with oil (I used Sunflower oil) and heated with a standard lab heater. You MUST monitor the temp though - no more than 200'C. I used a thermocouple (the wire you can see) attached to a multimeter, although a high temp thermometer would be just as good.

The flask is more or less filled with BaClO4 (foreground) and BaEthylSO4. Remember this is a dry distillation - see my webpage for details. Not shown is some heatproof cloth I used to keep the heat away from the condenser.

The receptacle should be positioned so that it actually touches the end of the condenser and doesn't drip (it might explode!). Both the receptacle and the red ice tray below are plastic in case of explosion.

The Ethyl Perchlorate comes over with water from the distillate and being denser, sits below it in the receptacle. The EP can then be taken up in a (preferably plastic) pipette.
The ester has a pleasant sweet smell.

I should also add that I wore safety specs INSIDE a motorbike helmet/visor and covered my torso and neck with a piece of sheet steel!!! I also wore two pairs of thick leather gloves. I couldn't wear these when using the pipette, so when the distillation was finished I moved the receptacle away from the apparatus and put it behind a wooden screen and sort of reached around that to take up the ester for testing!

chemoleo - 27-8-2004 at 07:56

Blaster, how would you go about making Ba-ethylsulphate? What is it structurally, actually?

Blaster - 27-8-2004 at 09:12

Barium ethyl sulphate is stucturally just as you'd expect it to be, namely the barium salt of ethyl sulphuric acid:
[H3C-CH2-O-SO2-O]2 Ba
or more simply Ba(C2H5SO4)2

The synthesis of Barium propyl sulphate is given on page 6 of Meyer&Spormann's paper on my webpage and I adapted that using ethanol instead of propanol. You can use higher temps than they quote because the ethyl salt is more stable than the propyl.

Firstly you make ethylsulphuric acid by adding 10 ml ethanol (I used 96%purity) dropwise to 20ml conc. H2SO4. Its crucial to keep the temperature low (below 20'C) otherwise you end up with diethyl ether!

Leave it for two hours at that temperature then neutralise the whole thing with BaCO3 until no more CO2 is evolved, again keeping the temp below 20'C.

You end up with a thick paste, to which you add approx 200ml H2O and filter or centrifuge it. (I used the latter method which is much quicker). The solid BaSO4 and any unreacted BaCO3 can then be discarded and the Ba(C2H5SO4)2 in solution then needs to be evaporated down.
However, you cannot heat it to more than about 40'C as the product will decompose. For speed I used a vacuum dessicator, but I'm sure gentle warming in a current of air would do the trick, perhaps putting it in a normal dessicator when most of the liquid has gone because its quite hygroscopic.
When dry you end up with white flakes which can be ground up for use.

[Edited on 27-8-2004 by Blaster]

chemoleo - 27-8-2004 at 10:46

Very interesting, thanks. Surprising how easy this is! I wondered - how is the formation of Diethyl sulphate avoided?

Also - when you made the ethylperchlorate - by mixing barium ethylsulphate with barium perchlorate, at what temperature does it form? Is distilling ultimately necessary? Or couldn't the two just be mixed, and utilised with a BaSo4 contamination?


[Edited on 29-8-2004 by chemoleo]

Blaster - 27-8-2004 at 12:42

I'm not an organic chemist (inorganic is my specialty) but I know that the reaction of sulphuric acid and ethanol gives all sorts of products entirely dependent on temperature. If the temp is low you get ethyl sulphuric acid, higher than that diethyl sulphate, higher still diethyl ether and if its heated like hell eventually ethylene gas!
I'm sure I've read that diethyl sulphate is actually made by heating ethyl sulphuric acid, so the answer to your first question is keep it cold!

I don't know the exact temperature at which the ethyl perchlorate is formed but nothing happens until steam starts coming off and explosions were reported above 200'C, so its between those temps.

Since ethyl perchlorate boils at 89'C, I can't really see any way of retaining it - refluxing would be extremely dangerous. You have to let it distill away really. I reckon a small retort would be suitable for simplicity although you might reduce the yield a bit.

JohnWW - 27-8-2004 at 15:26

A point about perchlorate and substituted ammonium esters and salts - the most "efficient" ones as explosives, in terms of energy liberated, would be those in the molecules of which the number of bonds that can be oxidized (i.e. C-H, C-C, N-H, N-C) is closest to 8, noting that the Cl is reduced from the +7 to the -1 oxidation state on ignition. So the best low-molecular-weight perchlorate ester explosives would be cyclopropyl perchlorate (8 such bonds), 1,2 or 2,3-propenyl perchlorate (8), iso- or n-propyl perchlorate (9); and for amine salts, methylammonium perchlorate (7), cycloethylammonium and vinylammonium perchlorate (9), and dimethylammonium and ethylammonium perchlorate (10).

John W.

Marvin - 28-8-2004 at 16:42

JohnWW,

Organic perchlorate compounds, with the exception of salts are far too unstable to have any use as explosives.

The rest of the post is completely incorrect and displays fundamental misunderstandings about chemistry.

You do not oxidise bonds, bonds are where the electrons go, oxidation states are about formal charges, where the electrons would be if the molecule was ionically bonded, ie entirley about atoms.

Counting bonds is completely pointless, for N-H for example, the N will end up at oxidation state 0. The H will end up at oxidation state +1. For C-H, C will end up with oxidation state +2, or +4, the H will again end up +1. It makes no sense to treat these as the same.

Even the term "efficient" is completely meaningless on its own. What are you refering to, maximum energy per unit mass? Maximum energy density per unit volume? Perfect oxygen balence? Highest detonation velocity? Maximum energy yeild per molecule? None of these can be satisfied by adding up bonds.

8 bonds because the chlorine is dropping 8 oxidation states is misunderstood at a very basic level.

Blaster, its a very nice thread and the picture is perfect the size is currently is.

As I recall Rhodium has some ethylsulphate preperation methods on his page. They might be linked with the preperation of nitroalkane methods.

more

lysdexia - 18-1-2005 at 01:00

Why bother with all of the large, heavy aromatics on the diazonium perchlorate instead of cycloalkanes or especially the newer cubane? Will anyone try an octaperchlorocubane? How does one find the octane rating of that?

Why is there still fear about blowing off fingers when it's the 21st century? Can't anyone just put together a CVD or PVD factory (slow and small, but many isolated flows) and have any desired substance waiting for you like a vending machine? Use wire-, laminate-, etc.-screens over the critical chambers. The thoughtful should be able to make alkyl perchlorates more useful than the stable explosives, even to make some on the spot and clock.

BTW, what do nonorganic and nonmetallic perchlorates smell and taste like?

sparkgap - 18-1-2005 at 09:01

*They* already had enough on their hands making octanitrocubane.

See this link: http://physical-sciences.uchicago.edu/research/2002/articles... or search for octanitrocubane on Google.

Octaperchlorocubane? Maybe you meant octaperchloratocubane. Perchlorocubane and octachlorocubane are identical.

I wouldn't bother about the octane rating. This is too expensive and, IMHO, too energetic to put in a car engine.

With regards to your idea, my two cents worth on this is that this factory of yours can blow up as well. Shrapnel is painful. You never know. ;)

I am not at all aware of existing nonorganic/nonmetallic perchlorates. Even if there were, I'd give it a second and third thought to smell them, and I would never seriously consider tasting them.

Nothing else to add.

sparky

Nerro - 25-1-2005 at 13:19

I've seen the ethylsulfate method before. Could it perhaps be used to make Et-O-NO2? or other things like it? EtN3, EtIO3, EtIO4, EtBrO3, EtBrO4 and Et-O-CO-O-Et come to mind...

It might be a good way to make such interesting chemicals.

Time to look up references...

BromicAcid - 26-1-2005 at 19:33

J. Org. Chem. 1971 36 1716
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3

This article details the preperation of alkyl perchlorates in situ by reaction of a alkene with lithium perchlorate in sulfuric acid and extracting with an inert hydrocarbon. Fun stuff!

Chem. Abs. 1979 91 210847
Quote:
91: 210847m Low-temperature electrochemical method of preparing alkyl peroxyperchlorates. Yakovleva, A. A.; Bairamov, R. K.; Veselovskii, V. I. (Nauchno-Issled. Fiz.-Khim. Inst., Moscow, USSR). Elektrokhimiya 1979, 15(8), 1114-18 (Russ). RCO2OClO3 (I; R = Me, Et) were prepd. by electrolysis of the corresponding carboxylate salts in 4 - 8 N HClO4 at -20 deg and >3.5V,. I were oxidizing agents and exploded on detonation or friction. A mechanism of I formation involving the interaction of adsorbed carboxylate radical anions and perchlorate radicals was proposed.,

Also from references in the first article I found more journals, I looked up:
H. Burton, D.A. Munday, and P. F. G. Prail, J. Chem. Soc., 3933 (1956)
Titled "Acylation and Allied Reactions catalysed by Strong Acids. Part XV. Some Reactions of Simple Alkyl Perchlorates." With the abstract
Quote:
Alkylation of anisole and benzene by methyl, ethyl, n-propyl, and the four butyl perchlorates has been studied. Two types of reactoin appear to be taking place: (1) nuclear alkylation occruing almost simultaneously with the fomration of alkyl perchlorate in solution, (2) subsequent alkylation by the alkyl perchlorate in certain cases. Detailed mechanisms have not been determined. The possible importance of these types of reactions in the more conventional Friedel-Crafts reactions is discussed.
It was an interesting article but it did not have any good infomation on the preperations of alkyl perchlorates that is not covered in other places, although they do appear to be very useful in organic synthesis.
J. Randell, J.W. Connolly, and A.J. Raymond, J. Amer. Chem. Soc, 83, 3958 (1961).
Quote:
[Contribution from Research and Development Group Frankford Arsenal, Philadelphia 37, Pa; Aeronautical Research Lab., Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio and the Research Division of the Wyandotte Chemicals Corp., Wyandotte, Mich.]
n-Alkyl Perchlorates: Preparation, Study and Stabilization
By Jack Radell, J.W. Connolly and A. J. Raymond
Received April 22, 1961
Abstract: The previously unreported normal pentyl, hexyl, heptyl and octyl perchlorates were prepared from the corresponding alkyl iodide and silver perchlorate. The pure esters of perchloric acid were stabilized as the endocyte of a urea inclusion compound. The infrared spectra and some physical properties are reported for the n-alkyl perchlorates
Although the prepartions are a little tough in this one, the stabilization and other physical information make a good read, I will probably scan this in the future.

Enjoy!

BTW: How long has Blasters page been down? I think I was just there a week or two or three ago but it's not loading today, it doesn't have his e-mail anyway, I just wanted to tell him I had more information.

[Edited on 1/27/2005 by BromicAcid]

The_Davster - 26-1-2005 at 19:53

It is not down, you just may have been going to his old site.
The most recent one is: http://www.cdodgyd.f2s.com/perchloric.htm

Blaster - 27-1-2005 at 14:48

Quite right Rogue Chemist! I will ensure my web page is always there.

I've just logged on for the first time in months - glad to see the thread is still going strong!

If you want to contact me, you could always post me a message on this board.

Nerro - 28-1-2005 at 05:56

Could alkylperchlorates be(somewhat) stabilsed by making the alkylpart longer?

Theoretic - 28-1-2005 at 08:16

Conversely... perchloroacetylene, anyone? :D
No, seriously. Chloroacetylene reacted with a perchlorate (preferably lead or silver perchlorate, the resulting halide is insoluble, thus shifting the equilibrium to the right) would very likely give you HCC(ClO4), which has perfect OB and is probably quite unstable as well. The one thing that bugs me about organic perchlorates is the C-O bond, which is why I can't consider perchloroacetylene a perfect explosive. The oxygen atom is half reduced, and the carbon atom is one quarter oxidized, it's like having a quarter of a CO2 molecule pre-inserted, a dead ballast. If one inserts a nitrogen atom between HCC and ClO4 and then attaches an azide group to the atom, then perfect OB will be retained and there will be no more dead ballast. HCCN(N3)ClO4 is something I can call a perfect explosive.

JohnWW - 28-1-2005 at 17:13

About chlorine(VII) compounds, all of which are either perchloric acid HClO4, perchlorates ClO4-, the heptoxide Cl207,and peroxide ClO4•, and the cation ClF6+, and possibly some oxyfluorides like CLO3F: does anyone know if someone has had any success in obtaining argon(VIII) or other argon compounds by the radioactive decay of Cl-36 (or other chlorine radioisotopes with an excess of neutrons) in the form of such compounds? BromicAcid might know.

Blaster - 29-1-2005 at 03:40

In answer to Nerro's question, the answer is yes!
The ethyl ester is slightly less sensitive than the methyl for a start. If you have a look at the bottom of my webpage you will see that the glycol monoperchlorates are very much more stable than the simple esters.
Any electron donation helps stabilise the incredibly weak CO-ClO3 bond.

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by Blaster]

Chris The Great - 29-1-2005 at 03:51

Hmmm, would a C-CLO3 bond be stronger? If so it might be interesting, however I have a feeling it may be more unstable, or harder to synthesis because chloric acid, which is very unstable IIRC, will be needed. And heating super-unstable explosive acids is generally not a good idea, especially when they are powerful oxidizers mixed with some fuel as well.

Of course, I assume there is some vastly obvious reason why this wouldn't work anyway :P

Nerro - 29-1-2005 at 06:40

1) You do not need Chloric acid for that synthesis. Did you see any perchloric acid used in the synth of EtClO4? You could use Ba(ClO3)2.

2) A C-ClO3 bond does not exist for as far as I know. The Cl is pentavalent in this ion which means one oxygen atom will be left with a free electron dangling about. The bond would be accordingly: C-O-ClO2.

Quote:
In answer to Nerro's question, the answer is yes!
The ethyl ester is slightly less sensitive than the methyl for a start. If you have a look at the bottom of my webpage you will see that the glycol monoperchlorates are very much more stable than the simple esters.
Any electron donation helps stabilise the incredibly weak CO-ClO3 bond.
That was exáctly what I thought! The Alkylgroup will quite readilly "donate" it's electrons to the rather stressed Cl atom (for as far as I understand this stuff). Perhaps pentanole can be reacted with H2SO4 to Pe-O-SO3H (Pe = pentyl) so that the bariumsalt of that can be made.

A question about the synthesis, could CaCO3 be used rather than BaCO3? It seems to me that as long as the salt of the sulfate is poorly soluble any cation could be used.

[Edited on 29/1/2005 by Nerro]

[Edited on 29/1/2005 by Nerro]

Blaster - 29-1-2005 at 11:07

Quote:

"Perhaps pentanole can be reacted with H2SO4 to Pe-O-SO3H (Pe = pentyl) so that the bariumsalt of that can be made.

A question about the synthesis, could CaCO3 be used rather than BaCO3? It seems to me that as long as the salt of the sulfate is poorly soluble any cation could be used."



I see no reason why the pentyl ester couldn't be made using the same technique, although Meyer and Spormann began to have difficulties with the propyl ester because extra heat is required to distill it and that is not a good idea with these compounds!

As to whether Ca could replace Ba, I don't know. I suspect not for thermodynamic reasons. If someone wishes to calculate the bond energies etc then feel free, but the basic driving force for the reaction is the formation of the very stable BaSO4.

Incidently, BaEtSO4 IS soluble. Drying it takes some doing!

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by Blaster]

Nerro - 29-1-2005 at 14:49

Low pressure distillation seems like an idea. As long as the T can be kept below 40 degrees C it should be fine.

I remember reading a reference to the use of KEtSO4 in a similar synthesis so perhaps the switch can be made. I'm not sure.

BromicAcid - 29-1-2005 at 18:56

Did anyone look at the images that I scanned in? It's on the preparation of longer chain perchlorates under very easy to duplicate circumstances (comparatively easy). By reacting an unsaturated hydrocarbon with a slurry of a perchlorate salt in sulfuric acid with an inert hydrocarbon layer above it, the perchlorate goes into the hydrocarbon layer and is easily extracted, distillation avoided and so is the complication of making barium ethyl sulfate and others.

Also, Chris, I was at one time thinking about organic chlorates, specifically their manufacture by reacting heated basified alcohol with chlorine analogous to the process to make organic hypochlorites. However considering how stable I would assume them to be I won't be the one to try this, and the increase in temperature would most likely just lead to chlorination of the molecule such as the preparation of chloral hydrate from ethanol and the preparation of chloroform from ethanol. And John WW, I can't say I've heard of making argon compounds by decomposition of radioactive chlorine compounds, although I feel compelled to try and find out more.

Chris The Great - 29-1-2005 at 21:01

Yeah, I figure they would be likely to just explode sudden without any reason upon forming (or, with my luck they would form in large amounts and then collect together in a puddle and THEN explode.).

Nerro, I forgot that barium perchlorate was used, I read through the thread quickly the night before and for some reason though that perchloric acid was used.. :(
My bad.

If it was attempted to make an organic chlorate, I would want to keep the reaction temperature as low as possible, hence the acid might work better.....

BromicAcid - 4-2-2005 at 19:56

Nerro, you mentioned ethyl perbromate, something I would have never thought I would find a reference for, then today, lo and behold:

JACS 97:2 Jan 22, 1973 pp 267

Experimental preparation of isopropyl perbromate. Ethyl perbromate and others were also attempted, but the method, reacting an alkyl bromide with silver perbromate, gave unsatisfactory yields with other alkyl groups.

A little off topic but these quotes outline the preparation of silver perbromate, whose preparation could easily be modified to make silver perchlorate (the simple reaction of silver oxide with perchloric or perbromic acid is normally complicated by the EXTREME hygroscopicity of the product [when attempting to dry over concentrated sulfuric acid it actually GAINS weight]) Also the preparation of isopropyl perbromate is of some intrest.
Quote:
Silver Perbromate. Silver oxide (5.80 g, 0.025 mol) was added in portions with stirring, to 100 ml of 0.5 M perbromic acid. The mixture was stirred for 2 hr at ambient temperature and was then filtered. The bulk of the water was removed from the filtrate under vacuum, and 100 ml of benzene was added. The remaining water was removed by azeotropic distillation using a Dean-Stark trap. The resulting benzene solution was filtrered hot. When the solution was cooled to room temperature, 100 ml of hexane was added. The solvent was decanted from the precipitated salt, and the salt was dried briefly at 25C (0.05 mm) and was then heated with a 70C bath at 0.05 mm for 6 hr to remove absorbed solvent. The product, 11.1 g (88%), was a white, hygroscopic, crystaline solid.

.............

Isopropyl Perbromate. A solution of 0.123 g (1.0 mmol) of isopropyl bromide in 1 ml of carbon tetrachloride was added dropwise, with stirring, to a suspension of 0.252 g (1.0 mmol) of silver perbromate in 4 ml carbon tetrachloride, maintained at -20C by means of a carbon tetrachloride - Dry ice slush bath. The reaction mixture was kept at -20C for 15 min. The silver bromide was removed by filtration, giving a pale yellow solution.

.............

The yield of isopropyl perbromate was 95% determined by nmr integration using chlorobenzene as a quantitative internal standard. The only impurity detected was 1% of acetone. The decomposition of isopropyl perbromate solutions was monitored similarly by nmr. The solutions showed no decomposition within several hours at -20C. At ambient temperature, the compound decomposed with a half-life of about 30 min to give acetone as the only product detectable by nmr. The yield of acetone was 90% in 24 hr. The solution became red-orange in color.


The article itself states that the oxidizing power of perbromates is slugish but more pronounced in power then perchlorates, upon long term storage the acetone decomposition product was not observed with perchlorates. The authors also reported no unexpected explosions although they prepared for them, showing somewhat unexpected stability.

Nerro - 5-2-2005 at 03:08

I always thought it was logical that BrO4- would be more stable than ClO4- because the Br is som much larger it can spread the electrons more equally over its orbitals (larger orbitals).

Could a synthesis using Ba(BrO4)2 and Ba(EtSO4)2 be be used to create Et-O-BrO3?

Or perhaps we could modify such a synth to create CH3-(CH2)2-O-BrO3 or even CH3-(CH2)3-O-BrO3. maybe (CH3)2=CH-O-BrO3 would be more stable. Interesting.

We should find a way to stabilize the product or at least slow down the rate of decomposition significantly because like this it wouldn't be much use.

BromicAcid - 9-2-2005 at 08:01

J. Randell, J.W. Connolly, and A.J. Raymond, J. Amer. Chem. Soc, 83, 3958 (1961).

Stabilization of n-alkyl perchlorates through urea inclusion processes along with preparations for some longer chain derivatives and their properties including the expected increased stability.

Attachment: ja01480a007.pdf (374kB)
This file has been downloaded 1491 times


Quince - 17-2-2005 at 08:25

I was wondering if there are any estimates on the performance of ethyl perchlorate (VoD, energy released). Not that I plan to attempt synthesis...

Also, whom do I contact regarding problems with forum software?

BromicAcid - 17-2-2005 at 09:45

Problems with forum software should be addressed in 'Forum Matters' or U2U'ed to an admin.

As for the energy released via detonation of ethyl perchlorate, I have a PDF entitled "The relationship between performance and constitution of pure organic explosive compounds." Which lists ethyl perchlorate as having a power and brisance 120% of TNT. The curves shown in the PDF are maxed out with entries such as 2,4,6-Trinitro-1,3,5-triazidobenzene, Trimethylolnitromethane trinitrate, Azidoethyl nitrate, and Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine.

Edit: Link

[Edited on 2/18/2005 by BromicAcid]

Quince - 17-2-2005 at 14:30

Thanks. Any chance you can email me the PDF?

[Edited on 17-2-2005 by Quince]

The_Davster - 26-5-2006 at 15:27

I had the oportunity to see some barium ethyl sulfate today, 1lb, electronic grade, however it is very old and very hydrated, the bottle says .2H2O, but it is a putty. It also has a very unusual smell. Could overtime it somehow turn to diethyl sulfate? I know the smell is familiar, but no idea from where. It is the same smell that I encountered in the liquid in which cerium metal was stored under.

Its mine if I want it, but not if it is contaminated with diethylsulfate or something nasty.

EDIT: It kinda reminds me of the smell of ethyl borate.

[Edited on 26-5-2006 by rogue chemist]

Swany - 1-7-2006 at 09:44

I added roughly 10mls of freshly distilled presumed to be mostly pure EtOH to roughly 20mls of H2SO4, and began titration with BaCO3, first whiff I got when I added some BaCO3 nearly knocked me off my feet! It was utterly foul! Not like rotting flesh, but an industrial bitter sulfur containing foul- the smell of ethyl sulfate?

Either way, I will attempt it today and I am half-expecting an explosion due to contaminants in my stuff. It shall be as scaled down as I can get it.

EDIT, and now I added some water as it was not neutralizing well, and lo and behold, it boiled over.... welll, I guess I needed some BaSO4 anyways. Divine intervention, perhaps? :P

[Edited on 1-7-2006 by Swany]

dunmail - 16-7-2007 at 04:31

I note from this MSDS https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/13460.htm that it's possible to make ethyl perc. from Mg(ClO4)2 + EtOH - does anyone know if this is true please?? Not that I want to make any (I value my body parts too much), it just struck me that it could be an accident waiting to happen if you're trying to dry anything moistened with an EtOH/water mix over the Mg perc., as I may be wanting to do soon.

franklyn - 16-7-2007 at 12:29

Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin

@ - JohnWW,
Organic perchlorate compounds, with the exception of salts are far too unstable to have any use as explosives.


The perchlorate radical is more stable than even the nitro group , and more
resistent to degradation from ionizing radiation , to the extent that certain
perchlorate explosives have found use in nuclear weapon implosion assemblies.
( Don't ask for references on this just take it on faith )
Aromatic triperchlorates of benzene ring analogs such as TNB comes to mind.

.

BromicAcid - 16-7-2007 at 13:22

Dunmail, magnesium perchlorate was at one time used frequently to dry gases. It has a very high affinity for water so it's really good for that. Problem is that it can pick up acid from exit gases and can release the free acid. Couple the free acid with an alcohol and dehydrating conditions and something like ethyl perchlorate can form, recovery though would be another issue. Suffice it to say, magnesium perchlorate shouldn't come into contact with organics.

And also, Tito-o-mac, there is a separate thread for the discussion of perchlorates/perchloric acid in general that would be better suited to your question.

tito-o-mac - 17-7-2007 at 02:07

Blaster, do you have a degree in chemistry/pyrotechnics or both?

franklyn - 20-7-2007 at 07:46

I thought about where to stick this ( don't be rude ) listed here
are other threads on perchlorate compounds I find interesting.

- Urea Perchlorate
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3286&a...
- Hexamine Diperchlorate
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=364&am...
- Hexamethylenetetramine Dinitrate ( cites also the perchlorate )
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=885&am...
- Perchlorate compositions
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6334&a...

Rosco Bodine made the observation that Trimethylolmelamine can be a good
candidate for accepting nitrate groups. I posted some data immediately following
this item here _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=173#pi...
Immediately after is a post by Axt on how to obtain this other _

[img]http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/image/imgsrv.fcgi?t=l&cid=62361[/img]

" Hexamethylolmelamine may be produced either by heating melamine with an
excess of neutral formaldehyde to 90" C. (194" F.), or by allowing the melamine
to react with neutral formaldehyde at room temperature over a period of 15 to
18 hours. Elemental analysis indicates that the product formed in both cases is
the same and contains one molecule of water of crystallization per molecule of
hexamethylolmelamine. good yields when melamine is reacted with neutral or
slightly alkaline formaldehyde, or with some substance producing formaldehyde."


I see no reason to be limited only to a nitrated variant and the perchloro group
achieves near ideal oxygen balance. Detonation products amount to 24 mols of
gas per mol. Its physical properties are as yet a matter for speculation.

- Click image for enlargement -



Thoughtful precaution is needed in the use of perchloric acid , the anhydride
unlike nitric acid , is a very reactive high explosive all by itself. Read about safety
concerns here _
http://www.fq.uh.cu/dpto/qi/q_inor_2_web/halogenos/HClO4.htm
http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/advise/PerchloricAcid.htm...
Other thread of this forum here _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12&...

Using an inorganic salt of the mineral acid buffers synthesis by ion metathesis ,
obviating the shortcomings from the direct action of the acid. This can serve
to confidently prepare a variety of otherwise difficult to make compounds.

Saturated aqueous solutions of Hydrazine Sulphate ( ~ 200 gm/ 100 ml water )
and Magnesium Perchlorate ( ~ 100 gm/ 100 ml water ) mixed together cold
should precipitate Magnesium Sulphate decahydrate leaving a concentrated
solution of Hydrazine Perchlorate _

Aqueous (H2NNH2)2:H2SO4 + Mg(ClO4)2 -> MgSO4.10H2O + 2 H2NNH2.HClO4

What I have just outlined here goes by another name when it is concentrated ,
it is also known as Astrolite. While there are of course materials which are much
less safe to work with , a healthy respect for it will ensure your continued ability
to experiment without maiming disabilities. Be aware also that a general rule of
shock sensitive liquid explosives is that the presence of minute bubbles makes it
much more sensitive to much less of a shock. In this condition anhydrous Astrolite
liquid is reportedly " as sensitive as ethylene glycol dinitrate " that's a direct quote.

I'm reminded of another quote I read , written by Gerald Hurst , Cheif scientist
at the Atlas Powder company that developed Astrolite ,

" Several fellows discovered new ways to detonate it , but they're not around
to tell how they did it. Astrolite will blow up for it's own reasons and it is the
reasons you don't know that will kill you. Never try to make Astrolite of any kind
in glasssware unless , you're tired of living. "


Possible new organic perchlorate salt

So now that you have Hydrazine Perchlorate , what to do with it ?
Analogously to the formation of HexamethyleneTetramine , I wonder if by the
introduction of Trioxane this can be further condensed in the following way _

(CH2O)3 + H2NNH2.HClO4 -> (CH2)3(NNH2.HClO4)3

Alternatively , Paraldehyde may similarly be substituted
The supposed structures are pictured here below _
- Click image for enlargement -



ArgusLab file here _ http://www.badongo.com/file/4666745

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by franklyn]

CTMTHTP _ CTETHTP.JPG - 55kB

12AX7 - 20-7-2007 at 13:30

How reactive is trioxane? Seems to me it's an ether...

Tim

sparkgap - 21-7-2007 at 01:55

Trioxane ain't just any ether; it's a trimer of formaldehyde. ;) franklyn seems to be using it as a formaldehyde source in the scheme he outlined in his post.

sparky (~_~)

Sciocrat - 2-8-2007 at 10:48

Can someone explain to me what makes ethyl perchlorate so much more powerful than other explosives?

And in general, what is the reason that some explosives, with very high potential energies in their chemical bonds, remain stable at room temperature, and need a detonator to start the explosive reaction, even though every system in the nature tries to have as low potential energy as possible?

12AX7 - 2-8-2007 at 13:57

Lots of systems require activation energy, even if the result if favorable. A boulder sitting precariously on the edge of a cliff would rather be at the bottom, but it needs some initial push to do it. Same thing with molecules, the boulders are just smaller and closer to their cliffs.

Some systems do not require activation energy. (Obviously, spontaneous reactions don't.) Quantum mechanics allows tunneling, with probability over time combining with activation energy. To fuse two hydrogen nuclei, some energy must be put in (despite the energy resulting from fusion into helium), but between tunneling and thermal distributions, you can get by with a far lower average temperature, you just get a much slower rate. (The probability at room temperature is finite -- extremely improbable, perhaps never having happened in the history of the universe, but probable nonetheless!) Molecular systems are of course on a quantum scale, but being somewhat large assemblies, can be seen to work from a more mechanical (classical) view. Molecular bonds are springy, so you could perhaps imagine atoms as balls covered in stretchy velcro. Some like to stick together more than others, but many will stick together anyway, allowing for the precarious placement of nitrate groups near hydrogen and carbon.

Perchlorates (the salts) are, in general, more or less stable. The group is happiest as an anion, but an organic substance doesn't really make a good cation, so the perchlorate group is grumpy and unstable instead. In terms of bonding, the oxygens hanging out with the chlorine would much rather be hanging out with the carbon and hydrogen on the organic. By giving the group a negative (anionic) charge, it's much happier. Oxygen really loves electrons -- that's why there are so many oxide and oxoanion (sulfate, silicate, etc.) minerals. There's four oxygens on the perchlorate ion, so even with seven stolen from the chlorine center, they want one more.

More stable organic bases, amines for instance, make better salts. Ammonium perchlorate is pretty stable, though it can be detonated, as can ammonium nitrate. Does anyone know about, say, methylamine perchlorate? 2 CH3NH3ClO4 --> 2 CO + 6 H2O + N2 + Cl2 looks very balanced.

Tim

sparkgap - 2-8-2007 at 20:25

"Some systems do not require activation energy. (Obviously, spontaneous reactions don't.)"

That is fallacious. All reactions need a "push", as you put it. Some are easier to push than others. :)

sparky (^_^)

Sciocrat - 3-8-2007 at 01:05

Tnx for the explanation, 12AX7.

Quote:
Originally posted by sparkgap
"Some systems do not require activation energy. (Obviously, spontaneous reactions don't.)"

That is fallacious. All reactions need a "push", as you put it. Some are easier to push than others. :)

sparky (^_^)


You mean like 2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O?
It is a spontaneous reaction, and it happens at room temperature, but very slowly. So it needs that "push", to allow the reaction to happen at a much greater speed.

vulture - 3-8-2007 at 04:39

A review of the synthesis and reactions of organic perchlorates is given in Russ. Chem. Rev. 1988, 57, 1041.

Unfortunately I am unable to acces this article.

JohnWW - 3-8-2007 at 05:34

Further to 12AX7, I would note that the stability of ionic perchlorates, containing the ClO4- anion, is due to its being tetrahedrally symmetric, and resonance-stabilized so that the negative charge and associated single Cl-O bond are distributed equally over all 4 O atoms. The symmetry of the anion, and also the octahedral symmetry of the recently-discovered cation ClF6+ (made by the reaction of [KrF]SbF6 with ClF5, which releases Kr gas, and a F+ cation which combines electrophilically with the ClF5), makes the +7 oxidation state the most stable of the positive oxidation states of chlorine. This symmetry also accounts for ClO4- being much more stable than ClO3-, which has an unutilized electron pair.

By comparison, covalent esters of perchloric acid (one of the strongest known acids) do not have this energy-lowering symmetry and resonance-stabilization, resulting in detonation of such esters being more exothermic than detonation of a mixture of an alcohol and an ionic perchlorate.

12AX7 - 3-8-2007 at 15:08

Oooh! Is there a [ClF6]ClO4? Pure oxidation! :D I don't want to think what that would do with powdered calcium metal... :D^2

Tim

JohnWW - 4-8-2007 at 09:15

That theoretically could be made, by adding perchlorate to the reaction solution (which I think is in either liquid HF or a fluorocarbon) afterwards, and evaporating it down to crystallize either the [ClF6]ClO4 or the hexafluoroantimonate, whichever is least soluble.

franklyn - 11-8-2007 at 16:13

Quote:
Originally posted by 12AX7
Does anyone know about, say, methylamine perchlorate?
2 CH3NH3ClO4 --> 2 CO + 6 H2O + N2 + Cl2 looks very balanced.

Methylamine Perchlorate has been known a long tiime, here's a patent description posted by
Rosco Bodine
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=att...

Triaminobenzene =>
http://cdb.ics.uci.edu/CHEMDB/Web/cgibin/ChemicalDetailWeb.p...
is tribasic and is commercially available as Triaminobenzene Trihydrochloride. Added to Sodium
Perchlorate in water will precipitate NaCl leaving mostly a TriperchloroTriaminobenzene solution.
Not sure how to partition those with solvent though.

.

not_important - 12-8-2007 at 07:39

Quote:
Originally posted by franklyn
...
Triaminobenzene =>
http://cdb.ics.uci.edu/CHEMDB/Web/cgibin/ChemicalDetailWeb.p...
is tribasic and is commercially available as Triaminobenzene Trihydrochloride. Added to Sodium
Perchlorate in water will precipitate NaCl leaving mostly a TriperchloroTriaminobenzene solution.
Not sure how to partition those with solvent though.

.


AgClO4 or NaClO4 in MeOH, EtOH, or possibly acetone, as solvent; NaCl has rather low solubility in those solvents. will AgCl is almost zero.

tito-o-mac - 20-8-2007 at 07:05

So does nitrosyl perchlorate requirethe same principal and steps to synthesise like ethyl perchlorate , or like the other family of perchlorates.

Axt - 7-10-2007 at 20:52

No, nitrosyl perchlorate is most readily formed by N2O3 on HClO4. You got no reply because it has its own thread : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=196

Here an article on the perchlorate esters of ethylene glycol, glycerine and pentaerythritol.

Attachment: perchlorate esters of polyhydric alcohols.pdf (479kB)
This file has been downloaded 1573 times


-=HeX=- - 26-12-2008 at 12:53

I apologise for the necromancy... But I have been doing a LOT of theoretical work on Glycerin TriPerchlorate. Glycerin TriPerchlorate is the perchloric ester of Glycerin, and a direct relative of NitroGlycerin. Think NG with ClO3+ replacing the NO2+ groups. I cant quite explain, so I will eventually draw it out. Anyways, I have one problem and thats its decomp reaction. There are 2 possibilities. Here they are:
2C3H5(OClO3)3 ==> 6CO2 + 3Cl2 + 5 H2O + 3.5O2
OR IS IT...
2C3H5(OClO3)3 ==> 6CO2 + 6HCl + 2H2O + 5O2

The problem is... I can never remember whether oxygen or chlorine has the greater affinity for hydrogen... Also, is the ClO3+ ion stable enough to survive even the esterification?

I am assuming it will be touch sensitive at least, hydroscopic, and insanely powerful. When I get around to dealing with it, I will tell you if I survive.

kclo4 - 26-12-2008 at 15:15

I know that HCl can be oxidized to produce H2O and Cl2 using Oxygen. Oxygen is more electronegative I am pretty sure.
Although, I'm sure the structure of the molecule is going to make a difference on its decomposition products.

Don't you mean the ClO4- Ion?
ClO3+ doesn't exist, but ClO3- is very unstable isn't it?

I don't think it would be wise to make, although I haven't studied it at all, it just seems to dangerous.

Formatik - 26-12-2008 at 19:47

Quote:
Originally posted by -=HeX=-
I apologise for the necromancy... But I have been doing a LOT of theoretical work on Glycerin TriPerchlorate. Glycerin TriPerchlorate is the perchloric ester of Glycerin, and a direct relative of NitroGlycerin. Think NG with ClO3+ replacing the NO2+ groups. I cant quite explain, so I will eventually draw it out. Anyways, I have one problem and thats its decomp reaction. There are 2 possibilities. Here they are:
2C3H5(OClO3)3 ==> 6CO2 + 3Cl2 + 5 H2O + 3.5O2
OR IS IT...
2C3H5(OClO3)3 ==> 6CO2 + 6HCl + 2H2O + 5O2

The problem is... I can never remember whether oxygen or chlorine has the greater affinity for hydrogen...


I think the same as above. O2 is more electronegative than Cl2, so it could be the first reaction.

Quote:
I am assuming it will be touch sensitive at least, hydroscopic, and insanely powerful. When I get around to dealing with it, I will tell you if I survive.


The paper by Axt right above your post mentions glycerol perchlorate ester. They also made pentaerythritol and glycol esters. The procedures and work-up are quite dangerous. Without a solvent and handling the raw esters, they explode even on simple decantation. Glycol perchlorate is already stronger than NG but it is also so sensitive, that it explodes when water is added to it. It is known glycols as well as glycol ethers mixed with with even 70% HClO4 decomposes violently (proceeding through esters) at regular temperatures. The reason they also work at dry ice temperatures in the paper above in the beginning phase of reaction, but they are also using anhydrous HClO4 for esterification, which itself is already violently more reactive than the azeotropic acid.

-=HeX=- - 2-1-2009 at 07:31

I read the paper, and the danger of death actually excites me. I am going to work more on the theory while I rebuild my lab, and then consider attempting the synth. Chemicals are never a problem for me, as I have several good sources of them. Would a H2SO4 (w/ SO3) and 70% HClO4 mix work instead of 100% HClO4?

kclo4 - 2-1-2009 at 12:34

Quote:
Originally posted by -=HeX=-
I read the paper, and the danger of death actually excites me.


Go to totse if that excites you :)

*smacks in face with a tightly rolled newspaper*

497 - 3-1-2009 at 05:59

Quote:

and the danger of death actually excites me.


Hey, at least he's doing it with style. I can respect that. Not some piece of crap BP-in-metal-pipe that's going to kill him, it'll be real live triperchlorate ester of glycerol, now is that classy or what?

I wonder how useful the partially perchlorated polyhydritic alcohols could be? Blaster synthesised one apparently, and said it was fairly stable, maybe something like like mono/di/tri/tetra/pentaperchloratomannitol would be usable?

Hell, while you're at it, why not mix in some other fun energetic groups? Maybe triazidotriperchloratomannitol or dinitrodiperchloratoerytritol?

As far as perchlorate salts go, what about the perchlorate salt of TATB? Is that even possible? Or maybe the perchlorate salt of triazidotriaminobenzene?

It seems there are so many possibilities and combinations that one of them must be a practical explosive... The trick would be finding it without getting killed first by all the ones that aren't..

[Edited on 3-1-2009 by 497]

garage chemist - 3-1-2009 at 06:24

For esterifying polyhydric alcohols with perchloric acid, I imagine a mix with H2SO4/SO3 would be unsuitable- remember, HClO4 is a stronger acid than H2SO4, so the mix would preferentially form sulfuric esters. Also, SO3 is too aggressive towards oxidisable organics. It is a harsh oxidant that likes to turn organics into black gunk.

Instead, learn about perchloric anhydride, Cl2O7, and its preparation from anydrous HClO4 and P2O5. This is actually less exlosive than the anhydrous HClO4 used to prepare it.

[Edited on 3-1-2009 by garage chemist]

497 - 3-1-2009 at 06:40

How powerful of a dehydrator does it take to make Cl2O7? It would be nice if others such as B2O3 or HPO3 could be used instead of P2O5..

This got me wondering, is there a reference out there that has some kind of ranked list of dehydrators? Like P2O5>B2O3>SO3>N2O5>etc? The only thing like it that I've seen was in reference to desiccants, so obviously most of the interesting compounds were left out. It would be nice to know what will dehydrate what...

woelen - 3-1-2009 at 09:26

Such a list is useless, because drying agents also have other properties.
E.g. SO3 is a VERY good drying agent, but it also is strongly oxidizing and turns many organics into black tarry crap.
As another example: SOCl2 also is an extremely good drying agent, but it also is a decent reductor and is capable of replacing -OH groups by -Cl in many organics and even some inorganic compounds.

For each specific application you have to carefully select a drying agent.

[Edited on 3-1-09 by woelen]

497 - 3-1-2009 at 17:32

I didn't really have organic compounds in mind. I was more thinking about which inorganic compounds will dehydrate other inorganics. Like (HPO3)n + H2SO4 -> H3PO4 + SO3.

-=HeX=- - 4-1-2009 at 10:51

Nice... Telling me to go to totse *sighs* I am not compatible with k3wl scum. What I meant was that if it does blow me sky high, I will have died with class. Now if I survive it, even better :) I am already starting the preparations of fixing blast screens, getting protective gear, installing a fume hood of sorts, etc. I am, after all, going all out on this, and wish to maybe improvise it if the school reneges on the deal.

I may look at mixed group ones, like glycerol diperchlorate azide or something like that, and may find one with acceptable sensitivity. The maths works, but will the reaction? thats the million euro question. I an making drop test rigs, etc and wish to prepare perchloric esters of glycerin, mannitol, erythritol, pentaerythritol, and anything else I can think of. You never know, I may come back alive I could have something nice :)

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